Topic: 2.36 That's what it takes

[BCCC]

How about 0.236 at the end of the season while he's still in charge?

Yeah, can see the interview in my head now where he's blaming the decimal point..

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Kev, I am not suggesting Comolli will be picking the team, merely that he will be in charge of player recruitment and player sales. NESV have already decided on the blueprint, basically following Arsenal's model of getting rid of the older expensive players at the right time and bringing through younger players that are far cheaper salary wise.

Keeping a young hungry committed side where the players are expendable and cannot become bigger than the Club.

It will be the New CEO and Comolli's job to implement that not the Coach, his responsibility will be to Coach the players at his disposal.

The two have to work in tandem though.  The coach has to agree that a player is expendable.  Similarly there is no point Comolli refusing to sell a player who the coach has deemed to be surplus to requirements.  I have no fear that should the need arise they will deal with Carragher in the appropriate manner.  And I stress "should the need arise".

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

For what it's worth I agree with you. It's NESV's decision to make I just hope they're being advised by people who understand the game. From the early quotes by John and Tom it appears they've bought the lie by the media and Roy. I hope Comolli is the best when it comes to player analysis and doesn't have any agendas going. Whatever, the future of the club is in their hands.

Mate, I can categorically tell you that they haven't.

[steveeastend]

Mate, I can categorically tell you that they haven't.

Which sentence of his post were you refering to?

[rafa4sure]

Mate, I can categorically tell you that they haven't.

Sincerley hope that's the case. Re-assuring to see you write that anyway. 

[coolbyrne]

I don't doubt that the current manager and the two previous ones for that matter, in their own mind, were always trying to win each game. But the approach has been too cagey on far too many occasions, showing way too much respect for way too many opponents the last 10 years. Sometimes we've needed to go to certain places, and we all know the kind of places I mean, and just gone there and said "fuck this, we're Liverpool, we're better" and gone straight for the scruff of the neck.

We've played with so much fear down the years but I suppose the weight of history does that to us sometimes. Getting a manager and group of players who have that ultimate belief is not easy. We've been so close so many times and then it always comes off the rails. It's one of the reasons why, as much as I dislike him, I've always advocated Mourinho. I've always believed that he would, if nothing else instill that belief and confidence and change the perceptions of us. But I know he just doesn't fit in with The Liverpool Way. I guess it will have to be Guardiola then. 

Two things about Mourinho that have helped make him the winning manager he is- his ego is bigger than any player in the room, and whether you (general "you", not you specifically, cornelius) like the tactics or not, he is able to make his players fit his system.  We often roll our eyes at his hubris, but I have to admit I quietly admire the way he is able to deflect negative attention from his team and take the pressure off.  (If he only accepted the praise and let the team take all the criticism, he'd be fucking insufferable!)  He's a big personality with the titles to back it up.  Hard to argue with that, even as you despise him.  We need someone like that to come in and take this team by the throat.

Just as an aside, for all the talk/criticism of how Mourinho wins by playing boring defensive football, Real Madrid have the highest goal difference in La Liga this year, and this time last year, Inter Milan had 12 more goals than they have this year.  (Yes, I know there are other factors involved, but I think it's interesting in the face of the defensive charges against him.)

[rafa4sure]

Which sentence of his post were you refering to?

"From the early quotes by John and Tom it appears they've bought the lie by the media and Roy."

I thought this. I'm not sure now you question it, actually.

[Milly]

Hear, hear.  Sick of all the shit Carra gets on here because of rumours and rubbish made up by rag journos.   

I'm sick of everybody saying show him some respect, Rafa made him and he stabbed him in the back when he wasn't gonna get a new contract... just my opinion

[steveeastend]

"From the early quotes by John and Tom it appears they've bought the lie by the media and Roy."

I thought this. I'm not sure now you question it, actually.

I think that´s the one... "have/haven´t" vs.  "being/are"

[rafa4sure]

I think that´s the one... "have/haven´t" vs.  "being/are"

Haha I'm slightly confused now. But that doesn't take a lot

If you're agreeing, then I think I understand. But regardless I'm just gonna believe what I choose to believe, and I'm sticking to it!

[walk-on]

My wife doesn't really watch football - and wasn't watching very closely against Stoke City, but did say mid-match: "yeah, looks like Liverpool's keeper has the ball more than the rest of the squad." Exaggeration, maybe - but its hard to argue with her point: hardly any forward passing.

[The Grinch]

The two have to work in tandem though.  The coach has to agree that a player is expendable.  Similarly there is no point Comolli refusing to sell a player who the coach has deemed to be surplus to requirements.  I have no fear that should the need arise they will deal with Carragher in the appropriate manner.  And I stress "should the need arise".

"The need" is for aging players whose best days are long behind them to be jettisoned and replaced by cheaper hungrier players BEFORE they are given ridiculous contracts. Unless NESV have a time machine dealing with Carra is going to be pretty impossible.

He already has his contract that runs into 8 figures and already has his power base within the dressing room, the fanbase and the media in place to resist his removal anytime soon.

Players like Shearer, Totti and Raul tend to leave when they want, why would Carra who has dug in for the long term be any different.

2.36 is that the number of decades Carra is planning to dig in for at the Club.

[BCCC]

"The need" is for aging players whose best days are long behind them to be jettisoned and replaced by cheaper hungrier players BEFORE they are given ridiculous contracts. Unless NESV have a time machine dealing with Carra is going to be pretty impossible.

I'd pull him into the coaching side now. If he's not already get him taking his badges and taking some training sessions with the younger players, he's always maintained an interest in the coaching side. It'll take his mind off the playing side enough to start leaving him out and giving the promising Kelly playing time.

Carra is hanging on by his fingernails to his top flight playing career and who can blame him, it just needs a little thought on how to let him down gently. We don't want to see a massive fall from grace for a player who has been (and still is) a great servant to the club.

[The Grinch]

I'd pull him into the coaching side now. If he's not already get him taking his badges and taking some training sessions with the younger players, he's always maintained an interest in the coaching side. It'll take his mind off the playing side enough to start leaving him out and giving the promising Kelly playing time.

Carra is hanging on by his fingernails to his top flight playing career and who can blame him, it just needs a little thought on how to let him down gently. We don't want to see a massive fall from grace for a player who has been (and still is) a great servant to the club.

I honestly wouldn't let someone who talked like this in his own book within a million miles of the youngsters coming through at the Club.

'He strolled off to all his French speaking friends and began talking to them. I could see him pointing towards me while everyone was grinning. It was clear what he was saying and the rage inside me simmered.

'Later, Song walked on to the training pitch with a smile on his face. He was limping off it with a grimace an hour later. The first chance I got, I did him. Never have I hunted down a 50-50 tackle with greater appetite

"You're not f***ing laughing now are you, you soft t**t?" I said as he hobbled away.

'Did I care he had a knock? No way. I don't remember him or anyone else in the squad for that matter trying to take the **** out of my ability again.'

'I've got two brothers who find it hard to work in Liverpool in this Capital of Culture year. One of the reasons is we've made it too easy for all those foreigners to come here and take our jobs.'

[Milly]

I'd pull him into the coaching side now. If he's not already get him taking his badges and taking some training sessions with the younger players, he's always maintained an interest in the coaching side. It'll take his mind off the playing side enough to start leaving him out and giving the promising Kelly playing time.

Carra is hanging on by his fingernails to his top flight playing career and who can blame him, it just needs a little thought on how to let him down gently. We don't want to see a massive fall from grace for a player who has been (and still is) a great servant to the club.

How can you let him down gently? Did you not see the article last year??
"First team or i'm off !" to be honest i think Rafa said fair do's you're off and so he should...

[GrkStav]

I honestly wouldn't let someone who talked like this in his own book within a million miles of the youngsters coming through at the Club.

'He strolled off to all his French speaking friends and began talking to them. I could see him pointing towards me while everyone was grinning. It was clear what he was saying and the rage inside me simmered.

'Later, Song walked on to the training pitch with a smile on his face. He was limping off it with a grimace an hour later. The first chance I got, I did him. Never have I hunted down a 50-50 tackle with greater appetite

"You're not f***ing laughing now are you, you soft t**t?" I said as he hobbled away.

'Did I care he had a knock? No way. I don't remember him or anyone else in the squad for that matter trying to take the **** out of my ability again.'

'I've got two brothers who find it hard to work in Liverpool in this Capital of Culture year. One of the reasons is we've made it too easy for all those foreigners to come here and take our jobs.'

Yeah, that's not on. The man's a relic, himself. Just because some may have grown up with the same attitudes, heck may even have them themselves, doesn't mean that it's ok to have a manager with those attitudes. I really don't care if that's the working-class/lower middle-class culture of Liverpool and by extension LFC. Not every aspect of every culture is worth maintaining.

[The Grinch]

Yeah, that's not on. The man's a relic, himself. Just because some may have grown up with the same attitudes, heck may even have them themselves, doesn't mean that it's ok to have a manager with those attitudes. I really don't care if that's the working-class/lower middle-class culture of Liverpool and by extension LFC. Not every aspect of every culture is worth maintaining.

The thing is it is not, Liverpool's ethos as a City has always been about welcoming anyone from anywhere. Liverpool is and hopefully always will be a Socialist City. Carra's views are about as far away from socialism as you can get.

More Daily Mail than Morning Star.

[edeyj]

Someone once said, “Football is a simple game based on the giving and taking of passes, of controlling the ball and of making yourself available to receive a pass. It is terribly simple.” So why are some coaches hell bent on overcomplicating it?

Not just coaches mate. Look back at the discussions about whether Dalglish should be manager and you will see some fans arguing that he would be out of touch with the modern game and the tactics needed.

It's absolute bollocks to be honest. The game is still the same game I have been watching for more years than I care to admit. I watch Barcelona and to an extent Arsenal playing the type of game we used to play in the 70's and 80's.

What's wrong with having "pass and move" as the foundation of your game plan and then letting the other team worry about how they are going to combat it.

It really is basic but do you know something.....it works.

[BCCC]

How can you let him down gently? Did you not see the article last year??
"First team or i'm off !" to be honest i think Rafa said fair do's you're off and so he should...

Wrong choice of words. I meant give him the opportunity or make him an offer then the choice is clear to him and the decision is his.

[BCCC]

I honestly wouldn't let someone who talked like this in his own book within a million miles of the youngsters coming through at the Club.

'He strolled off to all his French speaking friends and began talking to them. I could see him pointing towards me while everyone was grinning. It was clear what he was saying and the rage inside me simmered.

'Later, Song walked on to the training pitch with a smile on his face. He was limping off it with a grimace an hour later. The first chance I got, I did him. Never have I hunted down a 50-50 tackle with greater appetite

"You're not f***ing laughing now are you, you soft t**t?" I said as he hobbled away.

'Did I care he had a knock? No way. I don't remember him or anyone else in the squad for that matter trying to take the **** out of my ability again.'

'I've got two brothers who find it hard to work in Liverpool in this Capital of Culture year. One of the reasons is we've made it too easy for all those foreigners to come here and take our jobs.'

He wouldn't be the first footballer bloke to embelish his words for the sake of bending someone's ear..

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

The thing is it is not, Liverpool's ethos as a City has always been about welcoming anyone from anywhere. Liverpool is and hopefully always will be a Socialist City. Carra's views are about as far away from socialism as you can get.

More Daily Mail than Morning Star.

It would be entirely unfair to let all that go without pointing out all the excellent work that he does for the local area through the 23 Foundation.  His staunch support for the local Labour party and his donation to Andy Burnham's leadership campaign. 

[youll never walk alone it]

the remark about too many  foreigners always gets me about him, you go in his cafe engerland an its full of east european workers, practise what you preach hey?

[GrkStav]

It would be entirely unfair to let all that go without pointing out all the excellent work that he does for the local area through the 23 Foundation.  His staunch support for the local Labour party and his donation to Andy Burnham's leadership campaign.

Well, that at least contradicts this statement on its face:

One of the reasons is we've made it too easy for all those foreigners to come here and take our jobs.

[steveeastend]

I don´t think that his personal life should have any place in this discussion though.

It´s about the player and his role in the squad and what that means for LFC being a successful side. To me, only what he did in this matter, as a player on and off the pitch, his influence in the squad and club, is important.  And in this respect his time is up. Simple as.

[The Grinch]

It would be entirely unfair to let all that go without pointing out all the excellent work that he does for the local area through the 23 Foundation.  His staunch support for the local Labour party and his donation to Andy Burnham's leadership campaign. 

I think the work Carra does with the Carra 23 foundation and the money from his testimonial going to Charity is brilliant. I just thing the things he said in his book are borderline xenophobic about as far away from socialism as you can get and incredibly stupid when your workplace and your team consists of people from all four corners of the World.

I don't think he is alone, I just cannot see any good that comes from players writing books whilst they are still playing.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I don´t think that his personal life should have any place in this discussion though.

It´s about the player and his role in the squad and what that means for LFC being a successful side. To me, only what he did in this matter, as a player on and off the pitch, his influence in the squad and club, is important.  And in this respect his time is up. Simple as.

I'd agree with that but if Al is going to go all out to denigrate him then I think that it is important to offer a bit of balance.  The decision on his future as a player is one for the next manager, but if that manager is happy having Carragher around the team for the next two years then I am more than happy with that.  I still think he has something to offer on the field.

[The Grinch]

I'd agree with that but if Al is going to go all out to denigrate him then I think that it is important to offer a bit of balance.  The decision on his future as a player is one for the next manager, but if that manager is happy having Carragher around the team for the next two years then I am more than happy with that.  I still think he has something to offer on the field.

Who is denigrating Carra, it is a direct quote from his own book.

I find it quite funny that you openly admit that Carra was consulted about the appointment of Benitez, was inappropriately close to Purslow who appointed Hodgson but you are quite happy for an unknown manager not yet appointed to decide Carra's future. Turkeys voting for Christmas springs to mind.

Thankfully it won't be the next manager who decides on Carra's future, it will be the next CEO and Comolli who decide, we won't be getting a manager we will be getting a Coach from now on.

The irony of a French Director of Football Strategy and a young French Coach having the future of Carra in their hands especially after.

"He strolled off to all his French speaking friends and began talking to them. I could see him pointing towards me while everyone was grinning. It was clear what he was saying and the rage inside me simmered."

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Who is denigrating Carra, it is a direct quote from his own book.

I am not disputing that mate, but you can denigrate someone simply by being partial in what information you post.  You represented Carragher as some right-wing bigot.  I merely posted something to balance that and show that the truth is rather more complex than you would paint it. 

This is partly why I find it so difficult to take these theories seriously, you are so far from being an impartial commentator on all this.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

In terms of how we understand the terms in the UK then we will be getting a manager, not a coach.    Here is why:

"In 1951, when I was the manager of Carlisle United, I got a telephone call from Liverpool and was asked if I'd like to be interviewed for the manager's job. George Kay had just resigned. I stayed in Southport on the Sunday night and went to meet the Liverpool board the next day... 'The big snag had cropped up when the Liverpool board had said the manager could put down his team for matches and the directors would scrutinize it and alter it if they wanted to. So I just said, "If I don't pick the team, what am I manager of?" And that was that.

I was just over thirty-six years old then. I had not long finished playing and I was young and fit and ambitious. Liverpool were in the First Division. They were struggling, but there were a lot of young players knocking about the game. I could have started the job eight years earlier than I did! God Almighty, what I would have done for Liverpool then! But a manager must be a manager. He is in charge of the players and the training staff. He organizes the training and the coaching, lays down the law - and picks the team. Without that he is nothing'"

My money is still on Deschamps, which probably means that we have to wait to the end of the season.   

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Oh, and there is a world of difference between being consulted on a new manager and dictating who that manager should be.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

I think the work Carra does with the Carra 23 foundation and the money from his testimonial going to Charity is brilliant. I just thing the things he said in his book are borderline xenophobic about as far away from socialism as you can get and incredibly stupid when your workplace and your team consists of people from all four corners of the World.

I don't think he is alone, I just cannot see any good that comes from players writing books whilst they are still playing.

Agree with that.  The key is to stop reading them.  I never have and never will.

[Breitner]

Good topic, though I'm not sure how it's turned into yet another Carra conspiracy hour.

I think mentality is the key word here. You can adopt any system and approach but that hunger to win is going to give you the edge. That said it's easier to instill a winning mentality when you can buy the best players.

[The Grinch]

I am not disputing that mate, but you can denigrate someone simply by being partial in what information you post.  You represented Carragher as some right-wing bigot.  I merely posted something to balance that and show that the truth is rather more complex than you would paint it. 

This is partly why I find it so difficult to take these theories seriously, you are so far from being an impartial commentator on all this.

To be fair Kev, you haven't given any information that doesn't show Carra as a right wing bigot, he maybe he may not be. I would say the comments in his book were borderline Xenophobic and frankly stupid.

Showing that a person supports a particular party simply doesn't mean they agree with that party on a particular issue.

I agree that the issue is very complex, can you just answer one question for me how would you feel as a young french or Spanish youngster at the Club reading Carra's book.

He is the Vice Captain of Liverpool FC not Local Lads FC and should speak and act accordingly.

[RedinExile]

I'd pull him into the coaching side now. If he's not already get him taking his badges and taking some training sessions with the younger players, he's always maintained an interest in the coaching side. It'll take his mind off the playing side enough to start leaving him out and giving the promising Kelly playing time.

Carra is hanging on by his fingernails to his top flight playing career and who can blame him, it just needs a little thought on how to let him down gently. We don't want to see a massive fall from grace for a player who has been (and still is) a great servant to the club.

Rather him be phased out the team and then the club. Pro-coaches can train the youngsters to fit the new man's/nesv's vision.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

To be fair Kev, you haven't given any information that doesn't show Carra as a right wing bigot, he maybe he may not be. I would say the comments in his book were borderline Xenophobic and frankly stupid.

Showing that a person supports a particular party simply doesn't mean they agree with that party on a particular issue.

I agree that the issue is very complex, can you just answer one question for me how would you feel as a young french or Spanish youngster at the Club reading Carra's book.

He is the Vice Captain of Liverpool FC not Local Lads FC and should speak and act accordingly.

That's because I wouldn't claim to know his personal politics.  Nor am I overly interested in them.  I just thought that it was important that there was a bit of balance given to that extract from his book. 

[steveeastend]

I'd agree with that but if Al is going to go all out to denigrate him then I think that it is important to offer a bit of balance.  The decision on his future as a player is one for the next manager, but if that manager is happy having Carragher around the team for the next two years then I am more than happy with that.  I still think he has something to offer on the field.

I agree with the balance, but actually in this case I was refering to Als indeep analysis of Rafas private activities, I don´t find anything on his "other" life to be of significance in this matter

A manager wanting Brutus ähh...Carra around for the next couple of years should for sure watch his back though...

His time is up, he should be benched, even sold as in my opinion he is poison for the squad. Let´s see what happens then.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Rather him be phased out the team and then the club. Pro-coaches can train the youngsters to fit the new man's/nesv's vision.

I think it would be a shame *IF* Carragher has brought about a situation where he has to be moved out of the club.  You can get all the pro-coaches that you want but non of them will command that instant respect from local youngsters that Carra can as a result of his career at LFC.

[The Grinch]

I agree with the balance, but actually in this case I was refering to Als indeep analysis of Rafas private activities, I don´t find anything on his "other" life to be of significance in this matter

That's bang out of order Steve I told you about Rafa's milk, sugar and priest fetish in the strictest of confidence

[BCCC]

Good topic, though I'm not sure how it's turned into yet another Carra conspiracy hour.

I think mentality is the key word here. You can adopt any system and approach but that hunger to win is going to give you the edge. That said it's easier to instill a winning mentality when you can buy the best players.

Yep even I got sucked in.

I just think things can become more complicated with the best players.

Firstly they are well aware of their own ability usually with an ego to match. They are also usually playing for top international sides and playing for a top coach at that level.

Secondly with this in mind the best managers have a clear system and bring in the players that natually fit that system so I've never understood the call for "we must build a team around player 'X'".

Lastly its all about the winning, the best players will not tolerate any style of play that doesn't involve trying to win, it goes against every instinct they've got.

[The Grinch]

I think it would be a shame *IF* Carragher has brought about a situation where he has to be moved out of the club.  You can get all the pro-coaches that you want but non of them will command that instant respect from local youngsters that Carra can as a result of his career at LFC.

I agree completely Carra is the closest thing to Ronnie Moran I have ever seen, he just needs to realise that the us and them is LFC against the World.

Not the local players against the Foreign ones, not the LMA managers against the Foreign ones and stop getting into bed with the media and treat them with the irreverent disdain that they deserve.