Topic: Well sorry for ruining your Sunday afternoon AGAIN

[MagicB8all]

No one because we are infinitely better with Gerrard behind.

It's pretty clear Torres plays best when he's up front "alone". But just putting Gerrard behind Torres won't work unless you have the team and tactics to support it. How many times has Torres and Gerrard worked well since a)Rafa left. b) Xabi left ?

[L666KOP]

You know what mate, as good as he is, I really wouldn't be that bothered as long the money was ploughed back into the side. I don't think he can be relied upon for any great period of time and he's fast becoming a bit of a sideshow, though obviously it's going to be difficult to replace that ratio of goals.

If that is what he wants he must already another club in mind. But who could afford him? If went to City I'd lose all respect for him.

As long as we got 40mil, and it went towards the team, I'd take it.
He would have to go abroad though.

[WorldChampions]

Actually I did get that wrong so yeah it does come across as stupid. I meant 20 goals in 30+ matches and be fit to help the team out for the others. Christ I have posted that a few times in the past on other sites so sorry on that one and I deserve a hammering for it.

He got 22 goals in 32 games last year, what more do you want? Get a grip.

[koppitekop11]

It's pretty clear Torres plays best when he's up front "alone". But just putting Gerrard behind Torres won't work unless you have the team and tactics to support it. How many times has Torres and Gerrard worked well since a)Rafa left. b) Xabi left ?

A) Not once
B) Not once

Xabi was the key to that partnership, which IMO, in 2008/09 was the most effective in Europe.

[koppitekop11]

Actually I did get that wrong so yeah it does come across as stupid. I meant 20 goals in 30+ matches and be fit to help the team out for the others. Christ I have posted that a few times in the past on other sites so sorry on that one and I deserve a hammering for it.

22 goals in an injury hit year last year lad. Found that quite incredible to be honest.

[Jez666]

You know what, we wanted a world class manager to leave, and look where that got us.

Now we want a world class striker to follow him out the door?

Baffling.

Clueless.

Look I don't want him to leave, but IF he wants to and which is why his performances are suffering (apart from Roy being a prat with tactics) then IF a replacement is available I would rather sell him for top dollar asap than waiting until next season. In fairness though I never said I wanted us to get rid of him just that a few things concern me about him.

[markay_stinkay]

As long as we got 40mil, and it went towards the team, I'd take it.
He would have to go abroad though.

Astonishing.

5 or 6 bad games, when the WHOLE team is struggling, after 3 very, very good seasons and you want to sell him?

Wow.

[Jez666]

He got 22 goals in 32 games last year, what more do you want? Get a grip.

And how many more games than that did he play? THAT'S what I am getting at.

[shelovesyou]

If you are saying that a win at Bolton is something to be happy about in the sense that every Liverpool win should make one happy, then I agree.  But if it is because you are saying that Bolton away is a difficult proposition for Liverpool, then I question those sort of expectations/ambitions.   For we have now won 4 straight away to Bolton.

2010-11:  Bolton 0 Liverpool 1
2009-10:  Bolton 2 Liverpool 3
2008-09:  Bolton 0 Liverpool 2
2007-08:  Bolton 1 Liverpool 3
2006-07:  Bolton 2 Liverpool 0
2005-06:  Bolton 2 Liverpool 2
2004-05:  Bolton 1 Liverpool 0
2003-04:  Bolton 2 Liverpool 2
2002-03:  Bolton 2 Liverpool 3
2001-02:  Bolton 2 Liverpool 1

Depends how you view it really mate. You could say that out of 10 games We've;
W 5 L 3 D2 OR 17 points from a possible 30 or only beat them Once in the first 6 attempts. And 3 of those 5 wins by a single goal.
See what I mean.

No team goes there and takes them lightly. Nor should we and given the circumstances , a decent result.

[shook]

22 goals in an injury hit year last year lad. Found that quite incredible to be honest.

Yes his goals/minute ratio is a remarkable one.  I have forgotten the ratio exactly.

[koppitekop11]

And how many more games than that did he play? THAT'S what I am getting at.

Does that even make sense?

[L6 Red]

Depends how you view it really mate. You could say that out of 10 games We've;
W 5 L 3 D2 OR 17 points from a possible 30 or only beat them Once in the first 6 attempts. And 3 of those 5 wins by a single goal.
See what I mean.

Being honest...

No.

[Jez666]

22 goals in an injury hit year last year lad. Found that quite incredible to be honest.

But it's the injury hit bit that concerns me as it happens all too often, that's what I was trying to say. It's just typical that so far he's been fine but Roy's tactics have been woeful. I totally agree with that but like many of us we're just waiting for him to break down again as it's happened so often.

[shelovesyou]

Being honest...

No.

Why am I not surprised ?

[koppitekop11]

Yes his goals/minute ratio is a remarkable one.  I have forgotten the ratio exactly.

Same, cant remember the minutes one but last year am sure his goal/chance ratio was something like 33% which again was amazin.

People need to stop these knee jerk posts. The lad is having a tough time yeah but hes bloody incredible.

Wouldnt surprise me if he bangs in a brace against Chelsea next week..... oh wait, Roys in charge

(Seriously though, he'l be back to his best sooner rather than later and you'l feel pretty embarrased and deservedly so that you even contemplated selling him).

[Jez666]

Does that even make sense?

of course it does, the more games he plays the more chances he has of scoring or being an influence on the team.
Which is why so many people say that we miss him when he's injured. As I say the amount he's been injured concerns me.

[Beninger]

It wasn't good when we lost Xabi.  Wasn't good when we lost Masch.  Wasn't good when Rafa went...

In no way will it be good if we lose Torres...

[koppitekop11]

of course it does, the more games he plays the more chances he has of scoring or being an influence on the team.
Which is why so many people say that we miss him when he's injured. As I say the amount he's been injured concerns me.

Ok Jez we aint gettin no where here, broken records playin over scenario. I get what your saying about the injuries BUT when fit hes absolutly brilliant (or can be). Id rather have somebody whos injury prone and still scores goals i.e. torres rather than somebody whos injury prone and scores fek all i.e. owen.

Injuries are unfortunate. Yeah some people get them more than others but a lot of them you just have to hold your hands up and say well what could he possible of done about them? Its not his fault, is it? Hes still a top class player lad. Just watch the 07/08, 08/09 and 09/10 season reviews and you'l soon wish you hadnt said you might wanna take the money.

Its just a phase. End of.

[L666KOP]

Astonishing.

5 or 6 bad games, when the WHOLE team is struggling, after 3 very, very good seasons and you want to sell him?

Wow.

Big difference between struggling and appearing as though you don't give a shit.

We've seen Carra roasting him during games, and Gerrard appearing to blank him during goal celebrations.
There's been a fall out.
And do you know what, if he's having issues committing to the club, for whatever reason, he's best moved on.

After all the recent shit, we need all the fuckin squad to pull together, guess what, it don't look like they are.

[Jez666]

It wasn't good when we lost Xabi.  Wasn't good when we lost Masch.  Wasn't good when Rafa went...

In no way will it be good if we lose Torres...

And I actually agree.
Not once did I suggest we sell him, all I was trying to say was if he wanted to leave and there was no changing his mind.

[koppitekop11]

Big difference between struggling and appearing as though you don't give a shit.

We've seen Carra roasting him during games, and Gerrard appearing to blank him during goal celebrations.
There's been a fall out.
And do you know what, if he's having issues committing to the club, for whatever reason, he's best moved on.

After all the recent shit, we need all the fuckin squad to pull together, guess what, it don't look like they are.

Unbelievable.

Am sorry but why is he best moved on?

If theres been a fall out, why is it not easy enough to sit them all down, get it out in the open and pull together. Why should he just be shipped out?

[Mr Kipling]

All these people slagging off Nando need to get a grip, he's getting poor service because of the poor tactics that Roy is imposing on the side, plus he's getting himself back to full fitness. His game replies on other players passing the balls into the channels or passing it to his feet, not hoofing the fucking ball 40 yards up to him and expecting him to do something with it.

There are other players who played today who deserve to be critisised, one of them in particular, but Nando isn't one of them.

[Jez666]

Ok Jez we aint gettin no where here, broken records playin over scenario. I get what your saying about the injuries BUT when fit hes absolutly brilliant (or can be). Id rather have somebody whos injury prone and still scores goals i.e. torres rather than somebody whos injury prone and scores fek all i.e. owen.

Injuries are unfortunate. Yeah some people get them more than others but a lot of them you just have to hold your hands up and say well what could he possible of done about them? Its not his fault, is it? Hes still a top class player lad. Just watch the 07/08, 08/09 and 09/10 season reviews and you'l soon wish you hadnt said you might wanna take the money.

Its just a phase. End of.

I totally agree but when you haven't got a decent back up then it is bad news mate which is what concerns me about his injuries. I know he's a top class player, I spent on getting his name on the back of my youngest son's new shirt and I hope to goodness he's with us for years and that we'll manage to attract another decent striker in January. All I said about the money was IF HE was adamant he was leaving then I'd rather it was done sooner for the top whack than later for less.

[L666KOP]

Unbelievable.

Am sorry but why is he best moved on?

If theres been a fall out, why is it not easy enough to sit them all down, get it out in the open and pull together. Why should he just be shipped out?

Listen, there's every chance it's got fook all to do with him, I'll bet he's been fed more shit than a greenhouse full of tomato plants in the last 18months, but to me he looks disinterested, I'd move Gerrard and Carra on as well if there's any meat on the bones of the rumours doing the rounds last month or so.
I feel sorry for Torres, I don't want him to leave, I want the Torres of 2 seasons ago, but if we can't, for whatever reason, he needs to go.

[shook]

Depends how you view it really mate. You could say that out of 10 games We've;
W 5 L 3 D2 OR 17 points from a possible 30 or only beat them Once in the first 6 attempts. And 3 of those 5 wins by a single goal.
See what I mean.

No team goes there and takes them lightly. Nor should we and given the circumstances , a decent result.

Not a bad argument.  But the counter to that is that given that we win more often than not at the Reebok, it should not be some amazing feat for us to be mesmerized by.  Also, given that we had won 3 straight there prior to this year, the trend pointed to us being more likely to win there.  Again, this is opposite the idea that we should be dancing in the streets.  It is a "decent result," not, in the words of the original poster, "a win at Bolton is something you can only be happy about."  To me, this looks like he making a win at the reebok more difficult than it has been for us historically.  We have won at Bolton, and consistently.  It is not Stamford Bridge. 

E

[L6 Red]

My argument is what the fuck does 2002 have to do with anything?

[EarthWormJim]

And do you know what, if he's having issues committing to the club, for whatever reason, he's best moved on.

After all the recent shit, we need all the fuckin squad to pull together, guess what, it don't look like they are.

In his defence all season he's had to put up with fuck all in terms of support and nothing but criticism from the media and even the manager (straight after Everton, said everyone was great (ha!) but made a point of Torres being short on confidence) and now his own fans are turning on him, christ I don't blame him if he wants to leave. Clearly everybody here has forgotten what he does: be the natural predator who destroys teams when his team mates are good enough to create chances for him to finish. You all expect him to take the goal kick, run up the field and win the ball himself, take on the 10 outfield players before going back and nutmegging the subs bench then chipping the keeper from the stand where he is singing YNWA.

Honestly if you think he isn't showing any desire because he hates the club don't you think he would've told his agent in the summer who would've told Manchester City, Barca or Inter that he wanted out? It's got nothing to do with the awfulness of the players around him? We barely string two passes together before we lose the ball again, look at he blackburn match for example: go 2-1 up with half an hour to go, even Allardyce said he then expected to lose around 5-1 but we just decided to kick the ball up from deep and hope that Superman could do the rest.

Michael Owen summed up this situation best when he (talking about himself here) said "I could go to a team who are poorer in quality, yet play every game but never have a chance to score and not enjoy myself, or I can stay at one of the best clubs in the world and play well whenever I get the chance." We're not good enough atm, but in time we'll get better again and be able to challenge for things, at the minute we only have two players worthy of winnings titles, let's not attack them because they can't score a hat-trick every game and say they have no desire.

But you're right, let's sell our best player because he didn't hang around on the pitch after the final whistle against Bolton pretending that 0-1 is the best result ever...

[Jez666]

Not a bad argument.  But the counter to that is that given that we win more often than not at the Reebok, it should not be some amazing feat for us to be mesmerized by.  Also, given that we had one 3 straight there prior to this year, the trend pointed to us being more likely to win there.  Again, this is opposite the idea that we should be dancing in the streets.  It is a "decent result," not, in the words of the original poster, "a win at Bolton is something you can only be happy about."  To me, this looks like he making a win at the reebok more difficult than it has been for us historically.  We have won at Bolton, and consistently.  It is not Stamford Bridge.

The way I looked at it was that we've won there more often than not but Bolton are still a hard team to break down at home and they make you work for your points, they don't roll over as the scores (apart from the 2-0 which we dominated) prove with a lot of them being won by only one goal. A lot of top teams have to really earn their points against them.

[shook]

The way I looked at it was that we've won there more often than not but Bolton are still a hard team to break down at home and they make you work for your points, they don't roll over as the scores (apart from the 2-0 which we dominated) prove with a lot of them being won by only one goal. A lot of top teams have to really earn their points against them.

Yes but it is clearly not the Fortress Reebok.  The reason I jumped on the previous post is that my concern is our standards are being corrupted, if we begin to consider Bolton this imposing Kingdom, when really it is but a difficult test that we should still win.  Not like Stamford Bridge where winning really is difficult. 

[EarthWormJim]

Yes but it is clearly not the Fortress Reebok.  The reason I jumped on the previous post is that my concern is our standards are being corrupted, if we begin to consider Bolton this imposing Kingdom, when really it is but a difficult test that we should still win.  Not like Stamford Bridge where winning really is difficult.

Spot on. We've beaten them 8 times in a row now in the league, Roy's media tactics of announcing that every team we face is the best team every and a draw will be a god send is starting to filter through to the sheep on here. 

[Jez666]

Yes but it is clearly not the Fortress Reebok.  The reason I jumped on the previous post is that my concern is our standards are being corrupted, if we begin to consider Bolton this imposing Kingdom, when really it is but a difficult test that we should still win.  Not like Stamford Bridge where winning really is difficult.

Ah now I get you, fair play aye. Spot on.

[L666KOP]

But you're right, let's sell our best player because he didn't hang around on the pitch after the final whistle against Bolton pretending that 0-1 is the best result ever...

Show me where I said such a thing!!!!

Read my posts. (carefully) I said he looks disinterested. And he does, a lot of the time. Shit service? Most of the time yes.

You play for LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB, you may not be the best every game you play, but you should come off the pitch knowing you gave 100 fucking per cent.

[EarthWormJim]

Show me where I said such a thing!!!!

Read my posts. (carefully) I said he looks disinterested. And he does, a lot of the time. Shit service? Most of the time yes.

You play for LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB, you may not be the best every game you play, but you should come off the pitch knowing you gave 100 fucking per cent.

I almost feel bad, I quoted your post after reading nearly 5 pages of people attacking Torres and none of them even thinking that all the best strikers get the best support. You have a point that he doesn't always appear to give 100%, but then I'd rather have a team of quality players who play well as a team and Torres is happy and amongst the goals than say a team like City where they're built to make Tevez score (and he runs around a lot because they push up so much) but when he's out injured they don't know what to do. Sometimes you've got to consider fitness and natural stamina, just last week Lampard admitted he had serious problems as a kid trying to become a footballer because his natural fitness is appalling compared to others at his level.

I don't think this Torres bashing is helpful, he IS proven and does love the club unlike so many of our squad.

[L666KOP]

I almost feel bad, I quoted your post after reading nearly 5 pages of people attacking Torres and none of them even thinking that all the best strikers get the best support. You have a point that he doesn't always appear to give 100%, but then I'd rather have a team of quality players who play well as a team and Torres is happy and amongst the goals than say a team like City where they're built to make Tevez score (and he runs around a lot because they push up so much) but when he's out injured they don't know what to do. Sometimes you've got to consider fitness and natural stamina, just last week Lampard admitted he had serious problems as a kid trying to become a footballer because his natural fitness is appalling compared to others at his level.

I don't think this Torres bashing is helpful, he IS proven and does love the club unlike so many of our squad.

 

[DaveCharlie]

As long as we got 40mil, and it went towards the team, I'd take it.
He would have to go abroad though.

This exactly...

As long as it is in the year 2018 and he is returning to Atletico as Player-Manager. Anytime before then would be absolute madness.

[Ramon]

Astonishing.

5 or 6 bad games, when the WHOLE team is struggling, after 3 very, very good seasons and you want to sell him?

Wow.

It seems like people have very short memory; some of our fans agitated to get rid of a world class manager (and they are easier to replace) and look what we got in return.  Now we want to get rid of our world class striker?  We we so many years trying to find such a player now we should bin him because he's "injury prone"; will we ever learn? 

[KopThat]

Torres has had a slow start to the season, and people are reading too much in to his body language or reactions to other team mates.
I still don't think he is 100% and he will come good, and will still be here at the end of Jan.

It depends on how we finish and what the new owners do, that will have him thinking of greener pastures in the summer.

He hung in with Atlético because they gave him his start, and he had to stand by and watch other less talented players get the gongs at Real and Barca.
He probably sees the same happening here, and like most world class players they like to have a dusty cabinet full of honours by the time they retire.

[MagicB8all]

A) Not once
B) Not once

Xabi was the key to that partnership, which IMO, in 2008/09 was the most effective in Europe.

Clearly I agree. But there were other key things to making Gerrard & Torres work. The team pressed higher up the pitch meaning Torres got more support and got the ball in better positions. Rafa knew how to get the best out of Gerrard which IMO no other manager has figured out. Then there was the magical Xabi and Mash partnership. Mash allowed Xabi to focus on being the playmaker. Xabi's ability to find Torres & Gerrard made both extremely effective.

Summary: you can't really emulate the formation without having the tactics and personnel to carry those tactics out. Meaning we really need Xabi and Rafa back.



For the record I thick Aquilani might have worked out given time.

[Greg]

Excellent idea for a thread. Again. Why did the last one get locked?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Excellent idea for a thread. Again. Why did the last one get locked?

It never...  http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=265433.0