Author Topic: Glazer debt drains Manchester United (Not nearly 1 billion in new deals)  (Read 179610 times)

Offline The Jackal

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #200 on: October 8, 2010, 09:20:56 PM »

Manchester United fail to heed lessons of Liverpool's sorry decline

They are English football's most decorated clubs but events this week suggest their futures are far from secure

     David Conn
   
Timing is everything, the sages say, and today's release by Manchester United of their latest hideous financial figures, in the same week Liverpool were convulsed by their Hicks and Gillett breakdown, hammered home the horror of takeovers based on debt. There went United, the glory, glory club that should be England's richest, announcing enormous earnings of £286m from 76,000-seat Old Trafford, television and the other commercial wringing, but a loss of £84m. That was suffered largely because £81m was paid in interest and in the cost of servicing the Glazer family's borrowings to buy the club in the first place.

That is the exact same figure United received for selling Cristiano Ronaldo, one of the world's most glittering footballers, gone in £40m interest, on the £500m bond the Glazers borrowed in January, and £41m for early repayment of an interest rate agreement United's financial wizards had entered into only a year earlier. The same huge money earned for trading a great and thrilling player, spent in useless payments to financial institutions who, in a recession, can surely hardly believe their luck.

And there they were again, the same justifications rolled out by David Gill, United's chief executive, as if he, a United fan and football lover, really believes them: that the mountain of debt, now up to £769m, has no effect on United whatever, that the club is not burdened in any damaging way by money going out on that scale. With the interest payments, plus interest at 14.25% on the £202m "payment in kind" hedge fund debt, and the £13m paid to banks for United to issue that bond, the cost of the Glazers' financial chicanery last year alone was £123m. The total cost of the Florida-based family's takeover of United, done with mostly borrowed money in 2005, which was then loaded on to the club to repay, has since been £583m, in interest, bank fees and other charges.

Gill, talking up the income figure and £101m operating profit, rather than the debt or interest mountain, pointed out that United have £163m cash in the bank, which Mr. Ferguson could spend if he wanted to. But he chooses not to, Gill says, and United are serenely untroubled: "We are comfortable with the business model."

Over at Anfield the pretence has been blitzed away that they are comfortable and that, contrary to all common sense, massive debt does no financial damage. Tom Hicks, in opposing the sale the chairman, Martin Broughton, has agreed to the owners of the Boston Red Sox, is making essentially the same argument as Gill. In one of only two statements Liverpool's co-owner has made to explain himself during this tumultuous week for the club's future Hicks pointed to the income Liverpool have generated from fans and commercially, rather than the debt he and George Gillett loaded on to the club following their £185m takeover in 2007. During their tenure, Hicks said, "revenues have nearly doubled, investment in players has increased and the club is one of the most profitable in the [Premier League]".

Ferociously opposed to him in this most public battle are Ian Ayre, Liverpool's commercial director, Christian Purslow, the managing director who is a financier by trade, and Broughton, chairman of British Airways, one of Britain's top businessmen. These are not fan campaigners, or founders of supporters' trusts, devoting their unpaid spare time in half-empty meeting rooms to the belief in a better way for football to be run. Yet these habitués of the City have been saying in the most forthright way that the fans, pointing at the owners as emperors with no clothes, have been right all along. Of course debt on this ludicrous scale, imposed by owners motivated by personal profit for themselves, is damaging to football clubs.

Purslow, in his interview a fortnight ago, the first breach of the public front that the directors were working with Hicks and Gillett, not in spite of them, finally stated as barmy the assertion fans have been expected to swallow, that huge interest payments have no impact on clubs. Acknowledging that Liverpool are indeed doing well commercially, with Anfield full of fans paying a big whack for their seats, Purslow said: "Far too much of that benefit currently services loans, interest costs and bank charges. Can we afford to meet them? Just about. Do I wish that every penny spent on interest was available to spend on players? Passionately. And every minute of my working day I look for the day we are able to reduce our debt, freeing up our profits to be able to invest in players."

Broughton, in interviews he gave this week when launching his onslaught against Hicks and Gillett, whom he described as having "no credibility", said of their leveraged (debt-based) takeover of Liverpool: "If you are leveraged, that's bad for a football club." So there it was: the plain truth at last.

At Liverpool the pretence has been dropped so completely that Broughton made it a condition of the sale that no new owner – US investors like John W Henry evidently included – could finance his takeover with debt and load it on to the club. Broughton explained how good it would be for Liverpool to be freed of the "acquisition debt" with which Hicks and Gillett saddled the club. "Our aim was always zero debt," he said. "Why? It means the club has vast profits available again [which] it always should have had available to invest instead of servicing loans."

It is even believed that a line of attack in court next week could be to confront Hicks and Gillett with their own promise, made in their official 2007 offer document to buy the club, that: "The payment of interest … will not depend to any significant extent on the business of Liverpool." Broughton's lawyers are, according to Anfield sources, preparing to argue in court that that broken promise is a further reason why Hicks and Gillett cannot be trusted to remain in charge.

So at Anfield the truth has been declared. The speculators' practice of borrowing money to buy great football clubs, then loading those borrowings on to the clubs to repay, is financial vandalism. It should never have been allowed by the Premier League, which remains embarrassingly silent on why it failed to protect arguably English football's most legendary names.

At Old Trafford, where the Glazers have longer to repay their loans and Ferguson has a still fairly formidable squad to field, income is ballooning, cash draining out. The truth is not acknowledged and the chief executive is "comfortable with the business model".


http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/oct/08/manchester-united-liverpool-ownership-decline?CMP=twt_gu
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Offline Johnnowhite

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #201 on: October 8, 2010, 09:41:37 PM »
He was expressing that he hates them, and that he hates them so much he cant be bothered to say more than he hates them, he is allowed.

Love it we are doing great, we fuck everyone over in terms of money we win the league all the time, fuck the rules, fuck the reffs, fuck fairplay....... oh no we are in trouble, quick everyone must get together and help save the game.

Oh you can go and kiss my arse .
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Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #202 on: October 8, 2010, 09:55:14 PM »
I don't think it's good for football. Hate Utd obviously but think it's harsh to wish them what we're going through or worse. The fella on the last page who said all their illustrious history is from the Prem era, well they had a massive club reputation when I was 6 in 1988 so I don't think that's entirely fair, although obviously we were miles ahead of them at that time and they've (almost) caught us up.
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Offline Young Young

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #203 on: October 8, 2010, 09:57:43 PM »
Mancs 86 Million in debt. LOVELY  :tosser

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #204 on: October 8, 2010, 09:58:37 PM »
Oh you can go and kiss my arse .

He has a point though. On SSN recently, Jim "I'm a bit of a fucking wanker " White, tried his best to put down our very own Jay McKenna (SoS) stating that we were the ones to blame for what is going on with the club and protests at the club.

http://football.fanhouse.co.uk/2010/10/06/sky-sports-shows-yet-again-what-it-really-thinks-of-the-ordinary/

Rewind less than a year and what do we have? That very same channel doing it's best promoting the Green & gold campaign. Where was Jim and his fellow friends at Sky to slate them for making noises against the Glazers?

Maybe if you are struggling you could go around the country with a collection bucket. I doubt many shall feel sorry for yourselves though. Could always try and sell a few more scarves and have Sky give it a shit load of publicity.

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #205 on: October 8, 2010, 10:03:06 PM »
Oh you can go and kiss my arse .

Shut up will you? Go somewhere else if you want people to suck up to your wonderful club, because if you're honestly visiting a Liverpool forum and hoping for sympathy off every red on here then you must be fucking stupid.

We don't like you, you don't like us. That's the way it's been for as long as anyone can remember, so don't expect everyone on here to be sympathetic to your troubles.
I trust the King, but if we lose a few more on the trot now - he may have to step aside, and we have to purchase another manager in the middle of the season. If we are relegated, this could be the end of our ambitions to win any title the next 100 years.

Offline TSC

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #206 on: October 8, 2010, 10:13:43 PM »
Financially we're both fucked.  Though it appears that we have a sneaky chance of escaping our current 3 year nightmare.  However there's no way I'd gloat over UTD, given our precarious state.  We're praying a court case goes our way next week.  It could go against us.

Let's face it, the game in UK now is all down to money and profits, and has been ever since Murdoch weighed in.  That's why all the power now rests between the boardroom and the players on the pitch.  Managers and supporters are simply an irrelevance.  The first you can replace at the drop of a hat, the second you can drain forever.

So no, I may hate UTD, but won't gloat over what's in the post for them.  What we're going through now x 2 for them.

Offline killer_heels

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #207 on: October 8, 2010, 10:17:17 PM »
I hate them and while I can't shed any sympathy, I certainly won't be gloating about their financial position. Only gloating will come with the performances against them on the field.

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #208 on: October 8, 2010, 10:19:25 PM »
Oh you can go and kiss my arse .
Aww what happened to the big love in of the mutually fucked?
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Offline Johnny Foreigner

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #209 on: October 8, 2010, 10:24:43 PM »
Aww what happened to the big love in of the mutually fucked?

The mod is allowing 16 minutes of extra time..
It’s not even about individuality, it’s about the team. Our game was based on his controlling of the tempo. Squeeze the life out of the opposition and then strike. That is our game. Like a pack of pythons.

Offline Mouth

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #210 on: October 8, 2010, 10:31:31 PM »
The mod is allowing 16 minutes of extra time..
:lmao
Paranoia is a very comforting state of mind. If you think they're out to get you, it means you think you matter.

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Offline Hazell

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #211 on: October 8, 2010, 10:32:37 PM »
Aww what happened to the big love in of the mutually fucked?

He's asking you to kiss his arse. I'm sure he wants tongue usage as well.

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Offline Mouth

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #212 on: October 8, 2010, 10:36:33 PM »
He's asking you to kiss his arse. I'm sure he wants tongue usage as well.

xxx.
Sorry I'm not a premier league referee, so I dont tongue manc arses :P
Paranoia is a very comforting state of mind. If you think they're out to get you, it means you think you matter.

Life’s so much easier when you’ve got someone to blame.

Offline Fanxxxxtastic

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #213 on: October 8, 2010, 11:11:46 PM »
The Jackal - That's a pretty impressive article from David Conn.

The Mancs missed their window of opportunity last year when the Glazers were doing their refinancing.  They just stood by and let them get on with it.  While we used direct action with the spamming.  Whether what actions we took made a difference we'll probably never know, but at least we became wise to what was going on, and did something.  I have thank FS and Royhendo and all the other supporters for starting us down that route, but of course the one man who seriously needs to be thanked here is Rafa.  Had it not been for him trying to open our eyes to what was going on at the club behind the scenes, and these were even during some good times.  He was warning us of things to come.

Then compare Rafa to Fergie.  There's him kissing up to the Glazers, pissing all over the Norwich campaign, and treating the supporters like a playground full of kids, saying, 'There, there.  Don't worry.  Everything will be alright'. 

As Dawkins said, 'Don't trust your parents.  Question everything they say, and come to your own conclusions and find out the real truth'.
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Offline owens_2k

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #214 on: October 8, 2010, 11:18:21 PM »
Surely the same thing that is happened with us will happen to united. i.e Someone will come in and offer to pay off all the debt and give the glazers a bit of dosh? How much did the glazers pay for united? Im assuming they would want at least the debt + their original investment back.

If our sale goes through then unfortunatley the Glazers will learn from Hick's & Gillette's mistake.

Offline Lent§

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #215 on: October 8, 2010, 11:19:39 PM »
Surely the same thing that is happened with us will happen to united. i.e Someone will come in and offer to pay off all the debt and give the glazers a bit of dosh? How much did the glazers pay for united? Im assuming they would want at least the debt + their original investment back.

If our sale goes through then unfortunatley the Glazers will learn from Hick's & Gillette's mistake.
Someone will come in and offer £700m+ and give the Glazers a bit of dosh? Not a chance. Plus they don't wanna sell.
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Offline Dubit10

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #216 on: October 8, 2010, 11:23:05 PM »
Surely the same thing that is happened with us will happen to united. i.e Someone will come in and offer to pay off all the debt and give the glazers a bit of dosh? How much did the glazers pay for united? Im assuming they would want at least the debt + their original investment back.

If our sale goes through then unfortunatley the Glazers will learn from Hick's & Gillette's mistake.
Big difference in the debt is'nt there and who would want to buy them without lumping the debt all back on the club. They are royally screwed.

Offline SP

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #217 on: October 8, 2010, 11:25:42 PM »
Surely the same thing that is happened with us will happen to united. i.e Someone will come in and offer to pay off all the debt and give the glazers a bit of dosh? How much did the glazers pay for united? Im assuming they would want at least the debt + their original investment back.

If our sale goes through then unfortunatley the Glazers will learn from Hick's & Gillette's mistake.

The problem is the Mancs are already milking their fans and sponsors for all that they can. There are far less quick wins in buying them than there was for us.
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Offline Robert_B

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #218 on: October 8, 2010, 11:52:25 PM »
Man Utd's financial problems are hidden because they are still doing well on the pitch.

But that won't go on forever. Once they start stumbling on the pitch, their financial problems will be exacerbated and it'll be like a house of cards toppling.

Offline Les Willis

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #219 on: October 9, 2010, 01:16:30 AM »
He has a point though. On SSN recently, Jim "I'm a bit of a fucking wanker " White, tried his best to put down our very own Jay McKenna (SoS) stating that we were the ones to blame for what is going on with the club and protests at the club.

http://football.fanhouse.co.uk/2010/10/06/sky-sports-shows-yet-again-what-it-really-thinks-of-the-ordinary/

Rewind less than a year and what do we have? That very same channel doing it's best promoting the Green & gold campaign. Where was Jim and his fellow friends at Sky to slate them for making noises against the Glazers?

Maybe if you are struggling you could go around the country with a collection bucket. I doubt many shall feel sorry for yourselves though. Could always try and sell a few more scarves and have Sky give it a shit load of publicity.

Excellent piece by Scott Murray. Jim "Thirsty" White is a twat of the highest order and it sounds like Mckenna put him firmly in his place.

Offline youll never walk alone it

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #220 on: October 9, 2010, 08:59:03 AM »
jim the bigot white, utter shithouse.
Im drunk  but i havent had  a drink!  bob paisley after rome 77                The times i had here wernt all great, we only  finished 2nd one  season....the great  bob paisley

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Offline Johnnowhite

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #221 on: October 9, 2010, 09:01:40 AM »
Aww what happened to the big love in of the mutually fucked?

You blew that early doors brother... :(

still, I'll forgive ya - those that are in the shite together  have no option but to stick together ....but no tongues eh? ;)
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Offline Johnnowhite

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #222 on: October 9, 2010, 09:34:18 AM »
Shut up will you? Go somewhere else if you want people to suck up to your wonderful club, because if you're honestly visiting a Liverpool forum and hoping for sympathy off every red on here then you must be fucking stupid.

We don't like you, you don't like us. That's the way it's been for as long as anyone can remember, so don't expect everyone on here to be sympathetic to your troubles.

Let's get something straight eh mate? I'm not visiting this forum - I'm a member and not a wind-up one either. I'm not here for love and kisses - or sympathy either. I joined to hopefully engage with real football fans who shared my deep concerns about our game. I knew there'd be those on here who were likely to bear grudges, to seek solely to provoke and confront and generally to take the piss. I considered myself long enough in the tooth after 55 years plus of watching this fucking game of ours to cope with such negative bollux and be mature enough to get past any such shite thrown my way. I still hold that view. So Dr. M why don't you consider looking at the shite we're mutually in through life-coloured specs for once and spare me the ritualistic bollux about how much we hate each other. Hate is for the uninformed and the fucking stupid. I don't know you enough yet to make a judgement call but let me assure you I'm neither mate OK?

I believe there are plenty of real grown-up football fans on here - else I wouldn't have come in the first place. I am sticking around to engage with fans that whilst they may support a different club to me - still have about them a proud tradition of loving football itself almost as much (and sometimes a little more) than their club itself. I've been impressed by the high quality of debate and postings here that have real import for our game at this particular time. Yes there's issues between our clubs but just to clarify the history for a minute, there was ever a genuine respect from one set of fans for the other back when I was first taken to watch fotball in the early/mid fifties. It was especially so between the two biggest cities in Lancashire and there's much much more that links your city and mine than you might care to admit. Both supremely important powerhouses of the working class and the trade union movement and always standing out against injustice to the credit of both cities.

So, for any died-in-the-wool wind-up 100% haters of all Mancs here, my message is a simple one. Get used to me being around. I don't do wind-ups or hate or all of that bollux but if you just want to snipe, you'll get ignored by this old Manc.

As you say in Liverpool, Aw'right lad?

There is nothing wrong with striving to win, so long as you don't set the prize above the game. There can be no dishonour in defeat. What matters above all is that the team plays in the right spirit, with the utmost skill, courage, fair play and no favour, and the result accepted without bitterness or conceit. Sir Matt Busby CBE KCSG 1909 - 1994

Offline Degs

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #223 on: October 9, 2010, 09:58:55 AM »
As you say in Liverpool, Aw'right lad?
No we don't

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #224 on: October 9, 2010, 10:05:30 AM »
whats frightening is whether you like United or not, the figures show that more than £100M is leaving the game.

Whether than be from ticket sales, merchandising, sponsorship or anything else, its £100M leaving the game that was meant, for the game.

I'm not sure that's true - if it wasn't being paid out to banks it would going into the pockets of the Glazers.
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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #225 on: October 9, 2010, 10:06:20 AM »
I'd hate to see them implode and go down the Leeds route, but it'd be nice if they fell to mid-table mediocrity for say...a century.

That made me giggle :D
I mean seriously how the fuck does he do it? How is he so fucking brilliant that his brilliance makes everyone play better?

Offline Manila Vanilla

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #226 on: October 9, 2010, 10:46:22 AM »
United and Liverpool have been in the same boat for some time. They've been acquired using a pyramid scheme where the debt begins to spiral out of control.

United's main advantage is their size. Their completed stadium, world-wide presence and ability to generate revenue. Their main disadvantage is....their size! There are fewer and fewer people out there with the funds to be able to rescue them. And both clubs need rescuing....

With expanding debt you reach a tipping point where it's no longer possible to service the outgoings. You then have to sell off parts of the family silver or, worse, pledge future revenues (as Leeds did). These are just short-term measures and are only putting off the inevitable. You have to find someone who is willing to write off some of the debt. The drama now unfolding at Anfield is caused by Hicks and Gillett having to accept the write off, which is only fair as they caused it. But they're fighting tooth and nail to avoid it.

The two bids for Liverpool have shown that someone is willing to take a punt for £300M but no more than that. You could argue that even that is way too high as Hicks and Gillett paid less for a club that had made two Champions League finals and it has still bled cash. United are going to have to find someone with more than £300M to fritter away and the Glazers are going to have to accept an even bigger hit than our own cowboys. Until that happens they will continue to drift.

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #227 on: October 9, 2010, 10:49:57 AM »
Remember they haven't taken their 79m out yet I wonder if they were waiting until these results were released imagine if they had already taken that money it would have been 100m profit turn into around 160m loss that's higher than city's isn't?
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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #228 on: October 9, 2010, 10:59:30 AM »
Positive spin: Manchester United lose £80m but David Gill says keep on spending

Manchester United chief executive David Gill has claimed manager Mr. Ferguson has £165million to spend on new players - even though the club lost £83.6m in the last financial year.

Gill made the remarkable claim on the day that United's figures for the year ending June 30, 2010, showed operating profits had crashed through the £100m barrier for the first time but that the club continues to be saddled with debts imposed on them by their owners, the Glazer family.

Gill hailed the figures as positive, claiming that the huge loss was a one-off brought about by exchange rate fluctuations and costs associated with last January's controversial bond issue.

United's chief executive said: 'There are very good results for the club with records here, there and everywhere but they are complicated with non-cash items and exceptional one-off hits.

'The philosophy is to retain and attract the best players. We have £165million in the bank.

'United fans should not be concerned. We have a long-term financing structure in place. We can afford the interest on our long-term finance.'

Gill's attempts to put a gloss on the results will not appease the thousands of United fans worrying about the longterm health of their club under the Glazer regime.

Indeed, news that the club's debt continues to rise - it now stands at a combined total of £746.7m - and confirmation that United spent more on interest payments last year than they did on players will only serve to re-energise the 'Green and Gold' movement.

Plans are being made for a march from Manchester city centre to Old Trafford on October 30, ahead of United's Barclays Premier League home game against Tottenham.

A spokesman for the Manchester United Supporters Trust said: 'The financial results demonstrate the revenue generated by Manchester United - directly or indirectly through the club's loyal support.

'Sadly those supporters are let down by owners who continue to extract millions from our club. Imagine how successful we could be without the millstone that is the Glazers' ownership. With greater competition domestically, it is going to become increasingly expensive just to maintain a place in the Champions League and the huge debt burden makes the club extremely vulnerable to any dip in revenues such as that which might be triggered by a decline in on-the-pitch performance.

'When Mr Ferguson retires, the chances of maintaining anything like the same level of success look remote without massive investment. So the clock is ticking for the Glazers.'

The figures once again illustrate how United remain one of the world's most efficient, well-run and profitable sporting organisations, at the same time as showing the cost of the Glazer takeover in 2005.

Increases in both income from media streams (up by £5.1m to £104.8m) and commercial activity (up by £11.5m to £81.4m) are coupled by wages accounting for less than 50 per cent of turnover.

However, supporters disappointed that Ferguson has not spent heavily in the transfer market since selling Cristiano Ronaldo for an up-front cash sum of £80m in the summer of 2009 will be alarmed at how much the club lost because of charges incurred by the Glazers' debt over the year ending on June 30.

The latest accounts reveal that United's interest payments of £40.2m last year outstrip the net spend on new players of £30.4m.

None of this will serve to comfort supporters who feel the Glazer model is unsustainable, even if United were at pains to stress that some of the costs that have contributed to their extraordinary losses are unique to this accounting year.

For example, a large percentage of the overall loss figure is due to the high costs of setting up the £500m bond issue that the Glazers arranged to help with their debt burden back in January. That is something that is not expected to happen again.

Meanwhile, United also took a £19.2m hit because of a change in exchange rates. The figures show that United's wage bill rose by seven per cent to £131.7m, while United's overall debt rose to £521.7m.

In addition to this, the Glazers owe £225m in high-interest PIK loans which are secured against their shareholding in United.

United's overall turnover for the 2009-10 financial year was £286.41m, which compares very favourably with Manchester City, who seven days ago celebrated a turnover of £125m.

It shows the vast gulf that exists commercially between the neighbouring clubs - and the work City still have to do.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1318871/Manchester-United-dont-need-sell-stars-like-Wayne-Rooney.html#ixzz11r1qseBA
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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #229 on: October 9, 2010, 11:08:21 AM »
Let's get something straight eh mate? I'm not visiting this forum - I'm a member and not a wind-up one either. I'm not here for love and kisses - or sympathy either. I joined to hopefully engage with real football fans who shared my deep concerns about our game. I knew there'd be those on here who were likely to bear grudges, to seek solely to provoke and confront and generally to take the piss. I considered myself long enough in the tooth after 55 years plus of watching this fucking game of ours to cope with such negative bollux and be mature enough to get past any such shite thrown my way. I still hold that view. So Dr. M why don't you consider looking at the shite we're mutually in through life-coloured specs for once and spare me the ritualistic bollux about how much we hate each other. Hate is for the uninformed and the fucking stupid. I don't know you enough yet to make a judgement call but let me assure you I'm neither mate OK?

I believe there are plenty of real grown-up football fans on here - else I wouldn't have come in the first place. I am sticking around to engage with fans that whilst they may support a different club to me - still have about them a proud tradition of loving football itself almost as much (and sometimes a little more) than their club itself. I've been impressed by the high quality of debate and postings here that have real import for our game at this particular time. Yes there's issues between our clubs but just to clarify the history for a minute, there was ever a genuine respect from one set of fans for the other back when I was first taken to watch fotball in the early/mid fifties. It was especially so between the two biggest cities in Lancashire and there's much much more that links your city and mine than you might care to admit. Both supremely important powerhouses of the working class and the trade union movement and always standing out against injustice to the credit of both cities.

So, for any died-in-the-wool wind-up 100% haters of all Mancs here, my message is a simple one. Get used to me being around. I don't do wind-ups or hate or all of that bollux but if you just want to snipe, you'll get ignored by this old Manc.

As you say in Liverpool, Aw'right lad?


We won't have to get used to you being around if you keep answering people with shite like "you can go and kiss my arse". The point I was making was that you shouldn't be surprised about some of the responses you'll get on a Liverpool forum, and if you're going to respond to every one of them with similar comments to "kiss my arse" then it's you who'll end up getting kicked off here I'd imagine.

You've mistaken my post above and put me in with the 'Don't care what happens to the mancs' group, when in actual fact if you read back through the last couple of pages I'd already said I'd prefer this shit to not be happening to EITHER of us. So your generalisation must mean you are aware that there will be people who think this way about your club, so why respond to them? You won't 'educate' them, they just hate your club. It would be the same if any Liverpool fan tried to persuade Man Utd fans to feel sorry for us on some Utd forums. The majority would just laugh and not care, and that's just the way it is. No point in arguing with them, or even responding, as you'll not change their minds.

So yeah, stick around, discuss your situation, just don't be surprised if not everyone cares, is all I'm saying.
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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #230 on: October 9, 2010, 11:12:09 AM »
Let's get something straight eh mate? I'm not visiting this forum - I'm a member and not a wind-up one either. I'm not here for love and kisses - or sympathy either. I joined to hopefully engage with real football fans who shared my deep concerns about our game. I knew there'd be those on here who were likely to bear grudges, to seek solely to provoke and confront and generally to take the piss. I considered myself long enough in the tooth after 55 years plus of watching this fucking game of ours to cope with such negative bollux and be mature enough to get past any such shite thrown my way. I still hold that view. So Dr. M why don't you consider looking at the shite we're mutually in through life-coloured specs for once and spare me the ritualistic bollux about how much we hate each other. Hate is for the uninformed and the fucking stupid. I don't know you enough yet to make a judgement call but let me assure you I'm neither mate OK?

I believe there are plenty of real grown-up football fans on here - else I wouldn't have come in the first place. I am sticking around to engage with fans that whilst they may support a different club to me - still have about them a proud tradition of loving football itself almost as much (and sometimes a little more) than their club itself. I've been impressed by the high quality of debate and postings here that have real import for our game at this particular time. Yes there's issues between our clubs but just to clarify the history for a minute, there was ever a genuine respect from one set of fans for the other back when I was first taken to watch fotball in the early/mid fifties. It was especially so between the two biggest cities in Lancashire and there's much much more that links your city and mine than you might care to admit. Both supremely important powerhouses of the working class and the trade union movement and always standing out against injustice to the credit of both cities.

So, for any died-in-the-wool wind-up 100% haters of all Mancs here, my message is a simple one. Get used to me being around. I don't do wind-ups or hate or all of that bollux but if you just want to snipe, you'll get ignored by this old Manc.

As you say in Liverpool, Aw'right lad?



Brilliant post.

Sometimes I get the feeling from quite a lot of people around forums like this, that "to be a proper fan", whether it's Liverpool or United, you have to hate one another. I'm sure plenty of people are gonna look at the fact that I'm Swedish and say that I can't possibly understand, because I'm not English but I don't get the hatred in football ANYWHERE. I don't get why you have to hate Djurgården to be a proper AIK fan, or why you as a fan of a Stockholm based club have to hate IFK Gothenburg, as quite a lot of people over here feel. I'm sick of the so called hatred in sports.

I'm gonna focus on the more important parts in life than hating people because they happen to support the rival team. Of course I don't want United to win anything, and yes, when we're playing them, I will occasionaly abuse their players for whatever reason, but that's all in the heat of the moment.

I've been there. I have felt the "hatred" at some point a few years ago but now....I'm not gonna use all of my energy on hating just for the sake of it. It's exhausting. If I am a lesser fan to some of you, then so be it. I'd rather use that energy on trying to help saving our great club.

Jesus Christ, the world is sad and fucked up enough already.   
I mean seriously how the fuck does he do it? How is he so fucking brilliant that his brilliance makes everyone play better?

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #231 on: October 9, 2010, 11:16:00 AM »
From the Mirror yesterday

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/simon-mullock/Despite-the-current-turmoil-at-Anfield-Liverpool-fans-will-have-the-last-laugh-over-their-Man-United-rivals-Simon-Mullock-column-article596499.html

Manchester United's fans have been enjoying a joke or two at the expense of Liverpool this week.

Okay, so the draw at Sunderland offered more ample proof that Mr. Ferguson is presiding over a spent force of a squad.

And then came the announcement that the Glazer family have taken United’s debts soaring towards the £750million mark after yearly losses of nearly £85million.

But they say that you should always try to laugh in the face of adversity - and the ’other’ Reds from the opposite end of the A580 have been providing all the punch lines.

First there was slapstick of Liverpool’s home defeat to Blackpool which sent Roy Hodgson’s side into the international break ensconced in the bottom three of the Premier League.

Then came the black comedy and the prospect of the Royal Bank of Scotland calling in a debt of £240million that would effectively put England’s most successful club in administration in everything but name.

But, if anything, it is Liverpool’s fans who should be smiling this weekend.

Because while the battle for Anfield appears to be over, United remain saddled with owners who won’t sell up until they have squeezed every last cent out of Old Trafford.

David Gill continues to boast that even a debt of £800million is not a problem for any club that can generate profits of £100million every year.

But if United continue to spend more than £40million a year on interest payments alone and the Glazers family continue to rack up the debt levels then something has to give.

The strains are already starting to show if you look at the calibre of player Ferguson has been forced to recruit.

It used to be Veron and Ronaldinho that United coveted. Last summer it was Bebe and, apparently, Bellamy.

Hicks and Gillett found it impossible to invest in the team and satisfy the creditors.

In the next two or three years, United will have to replace the likes of Ryan Giggs, Paul Scholes, Rio Ferdinand and Edwin van der Sar - as well as Ferguson himself.

That could be the breaking point.


Offline foreveragnome

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #232 on: October 9, 2010, 12:05:31 PM »
Ah fuck em, if I'd ever met one United fan who wasn't a complete bellend when it came to discussing football I'd feel sympathy for them.

A few weeks ago I was out in Manchester and ended up in a discussion with three Mancs about the financial plight of our two clubs. They were far more concerned with laughing at our situation than listening to my warning that the same was just around the corner for them. They slagged off the green and gold campaign, said the Glazers were alright, said Fergie would never let them asset strip even though I pointed out that its already started, and they came up with the same shite about it was all Rafa's fault what's happened to us with him spending money on shit, and that they'd love it if we went under.

After living in Greater Manchester for 12 months, these are the only type of United fans that I've met. Dickheads.

Although I don't want them to go under and certainly don't wish it on them, I couldn't give a flying fuck if they do and will quite happily sit and watch when the Glazers eventually run that shit hole of a club into the ground.

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #233 on: October 9, 2010, 01:05:12 PM »
Quote
Since the Glazers took over, they and the club have incurred more than £450m in interest charges and debt-related payments. To be clear, that doesn't include the actual sums borrowed, which stand today at £741m - including £220m of PIKs and the £521m club debts.

But it does include all fees to lawyers and bankers, penalties related to refinancing, loans to the Glazers, the PIKs interest and annual interest charges. To put that into context, those debt payments are £150m more than the price agreed by John Henry to buy arch-rivals Liverpool.

staggering numbers. imagine they had invested that £450m in to players in the last 5 years.
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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #234 on: October 9, 2010, 02:15:03 PM »
Could that cash on hand somehow be a liquidity requirement as terms of the loan, which simultaneously lets Gill conveniently say "ah yeah but look" knowing it can't actually be touched?
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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #235 on: October 9, 2010, 03:02:39 PM »
Ok lets rewrite history with the internet warriors edition, when i first started supporting this great club United had a manager who was an ex Liverpool player and close friend of Bill Shankly, for the thick ones Matt Busby, there was rivalry and mutual respect with two great clubs but there was never the pathetic hatred there is now!

there has always been rivalry between the cities but how many on here live in Liverpool or care about that?

This hatred was generated by the comments of one man who needed to psyche out the fanbase and the club  to gain ground on us and it worked the club felt the pressure and we made mistakes trying to shove Fergusons words down his throat!

Now in the age of the internet warrior it is all hate someone said all mancs he has met are bellends, well they say like attracts like pal!

Seriously while we go on this fuck em attitude to their problems and other fans think the same about us, Football is being quickly fucked over by dishonest owners, greedy players, wall to wall tv coverage , ticket prices, and internet warriors, lying agenda based media hacks!

When we have two divisions of teams with no history but enough money from high ticket prices and corporate boxes, while all our traditional clubs go to the wall, then all you with this childish fuck em attitude might wake up and smell the coffee.

I wont hold my breath though hey!
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Offline Johnnowhite

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #236 on: October 9, 2010, 03:23:25 PM »
That's a big problem Geoff lad...today's fans don't know too much - nor does it seem many of them want to know much - about the history of our great game. Your fears are same as mine mate.

It'll all end in tears and sadly by then it'll be far too late to salvage very much of anything.
To be absolutely honest - the sooner this "let's out-do the Jones's" Premiership bubble bursts, the better it's going to be for the game in the long run.

They say the market has a levelling effect and things tend to average out over time. Well, I think that particular clock is running....
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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #237 on: October 9, 2010, 03:41:39 PM »
Ok lets rewrite history with the internet warriors edition, when i first started supporting this great club United had a manager who was an ex Liverpool player and close friend of Bill Shankly, for the thick ones Matt Busby, there was rivalry and mutual respect with two great clubs but there was never the pathetic hatred there is now!

there has always been rivalry between the cities but how many on here live in Liverpool or care about that?

This hatred was generated by the comments of one man who needed to psyche out the fanbase and the club  to gain ground on us and it worked the club felt the pressure and we made mistakes trying to shove Fergusons words down his throat!

Now in the age of the internet warrior it is all hate someone said all mancs he has met are bellends, well they say like attracts like pal!

Seriously while we go on this fuck em attitude to their problems and other fans think the same about us, Football is being quickly fucked over by dishonest owners, greedy players, wall to wall tv coverage , ticket prices, and internet warriors, lying agenda based media hacks!

When we have two divisions of teams with no history but enough money from high ticket prices and corporate boxes, while all our traditional clubs go to the wall, then all you with this childish fuck em attitude might wake up and smell the coffee.

I wont hold my breath though hey!
Good post Geoff. Interesting point you make about Fergie. Maybe when he retires we may see the hate, especially from our side diminish.

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #238 on: October 9, 2010, 08:26:49 PM »
That's a big problem Geoff lad...today's fans don't know too much - nor does it seem many of them want to know much - about the history of our great game. Your fears are same as mine mate.

Mate, I'm a bit of an old timer as well, and I like to think I have learned enough over the years to class myself as slightly more than a "don't know too much" type of fan.

I've seen this clubs tragedies come and go, and this latest one has taught me as much about football, our fans and other fans, as the others.

I've learnt the painful way about all the various legalities, money shifting, loans between companies, boardroom shenanigans, backstabbing and how easy it is for someone to almost erase a piece of history. I've watched our own fans not have a fucking clue, not have the bollocks, or not have the willingness, to do a thing about it. It has been emotionally and physically draining. My Mrs doesnt get why I get irate and depressed over it. She doesnt have the feeling I have for the club, the sense of being brought up as part of it. As much as she tries (shes not from Liverpool) she's never gonna get it. Much the same as a lot of our fans.

I understand about the effect on the whole of future football (I wont go into what yous chose to do years ago, which IMO was a catalyst of all thats currently bad), but to be painfully honest mate, I dont care anymore. It looks (hopefully) like we're going to dig ourselves out of our current prediciment. If that happens mate, then I don't care about anyone else anymore to be honest.

Its not that I actually dont care. Its just that i dont have the energy to worry about any other fuckers anymore after this. No disrespect, but especially yous. There'll never be a concerted effort to sort out football. It'll never happen unfortunately. probably because 90% of fans either dont understand whats happening, dont care, or couldnt summon up the slightest bit of empathy for a rival team. Suppors who genuinely care about the whole of football, and would sacrifice anything, are probaby in a 5% minority.

Its a shame mate.

But thats football eh.

All the badge kissing in the world don't make up for the fact that they are, frankly, not Liverpool Football Club. It's not their fault. Its just how it is.

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Re: Glazer debt drains Manchester United
« Reply #239 on: October 9, 2010, 08:57:24 PM »
I'd be fucking fuming with that statement from Gill if I was a manc.  At least we don't have a manager and board pandering to our disastrous owners.

I bet red issue nd redcafe are in overdrive over these figures and indeed Gill's response.