Topic: Putting on weight/muscle

[kkhaku]

Exactly. So many people ask the question; "Can I gain muscle and lose fat at the same time?" and the answer, as a general rule at least, is a resounding no.

One requires an excess of calories and the other a deficit. Polar opposites.

I'm trying to get my guys away from that line of thought - simply because that last sentence is not entirely true.

It leads to a bit of resignation among bulkers that 'If I want to gain muscle fast, I'm going to have to get fat too' - and that leads to a shift away from the clean bulk as athletes concentrate on the scale rather than how they look in the mirror, or their bf%.

The trick is strict macro-nutrient control (intake and timing) and consistent feedback from a variety of sources.  It's possible to actually change your body composition. The level of commitment required to do this though is bordering on the insane.

[jason23]

My son is now nearly 15, stands 6'1.5 and weighs 94kg. He is in the very early stages of selection for the Ospreys U16s (long, long way to go yet). We had another nutrition presentation the other evening and we were told that he has to put on as much lean muscle as possible over the next 4 years (16-20 is the optimum time for adding muscle?). We were told that he needs 2grams of protein for every kg of body weight (94 x 2 = 184). He has a good diet (scrambled eggs for breakfast, eats wholemeal bread, fruit, veg, pasta, chicken and tuna etc), has a protein bar on training/game days and a shake after said sessions. We have sorted out the shed as well so he can get back to using his weights. We were also told that we should only buy products that are on the Informed Sport website - www.informed-sport.com. I have looked at the things on there and if I follow that advice, I can only buy Maximuscle (expensive - paying for name?) PAS Phase 3 (expensive, but I do have a discount code http://pasonline.co.uk) MyProtein(http://www.myprotein.com) and Kinetica.

I did a quick comparison to see the cost per serving and the protein per serving...

Phase 3 - 40g protein £1.05 per serving (also has extra vitamins)
Promax - 24.3g protein £1.00 per serving
Kinetica - 23g protein £0.53 per serving
Hurricane Evo - 34.6g protein £0.67 per serving (this has Creatine - not supposed to take U18)
Total Protein - 46.5g protein £0.64 per serving

Do I buy the expensive Phase 3 or the cheaper but possibly not as effective Total Protein?

[GBF]

My son is now nearly 15, stands 6'1.5 and weighs 94kg. He is in the very early stages of selection for the Ospreys U16s (long, long way to go yet). We had another nutrition presentation the other evening and we were told that he has to put on as much lean muscle as possible over the next 4 years (16-20 is the optimum time for adding muscle?). We were told that he needs 2grams of protein for every kg of body weight (94 x 2 = 184). He has a good diet (scrambled eggs for breakfast, eats wholemeal bread, fruit, veg, pasta, chicken and tuna etc), has a protein bar on training/game days and a shake after said sessions. We have sorted out the shed as well so he can get back to using his weights. We were also told that we should only buy products that are on the Informed Sport website - www.informed-sport.com. I have looked at the things on there and if I follow that advice, I can only buy Maximuscle (expensive - paying for name?) PAS Phase 3 (expensive, but I do have a discount code http://pasonline.co.uk) MyProtein(http://www.myprotein.com) and Kinetica.

I did a quick comparison to see the cost per serving and the protein per serving...

Phase 3 - 40g protein £1.05 per serving (also has extra vitamins)
Promax - 24.3g protein £1.00 per serving
Kinetica - 23g protein £0.53 per serving
Hurricane Evo - 34.6g protein £0.67 per serving (this has Creatine - not supposed to take U18)
Total Protein - 46.5g protein £0.64 per serving

Do I buy the expensive Phase 3 or the cheaper but possibly not as effective Total Protein?

dont you think he is too young for serious supplements? may be it is better for you/him to see a sports nutritionist for better advice.  You need to think his body must not only be good for rugby, but also for the life after rugby

[Grobbelrevell]

dont you think he is too young for serious supplements? may be it is better for you/him to see a sports nutritionist for better advice.  You need to think his body must not only be good for rugby, but also for the life after rugby

I see your concern but a protein shake is hardly a serious supplement. It's simply a way of adding in additional (clean) protein to a diet, because at some stage there will come a point where you physically cannot eat enough to reach the level of protein that you need. Plus it's convenient for post-workout and that kind of thing. Nothing wrong in it IMO, providing it is purely protein that we're talking about.

[GBF]

I see your concern but a protein shake is hardly a serious supplement. It's simply a way of adding in additional (clean) protein to a diet, because at some stage there will come a point where you physically cannot eat enough to reach the level of protein that you need.

I was worried about putting high dose of protein in puberty age

[jason23]

dont you think he is too young for serious supplements? may be it is better for you/him to see a sports nutritionist for better advice.  You need to think his body must not only be good for rugby, but also for the life after rugby

Did you read my post? I only ask because it was a sports nutritionist who said the above!!!

[Marty 85]

Maximuscle, although a good product, is overly expensive. I don't think there's any reason to pay over the top when there other great products out there with much better composition that taste a whole lot better.

You won't go far wrong with Mypotein.com. They sell identicle maximuscle products (same composition, vitamins etc) but at much lower prices. Protein is protein but you will pay abit more for a protein isolate powder/blend than you would for a whey powder. Total protein is a blend of both whey and isolate so it's released at different stages. Below are some of the whey powders from MP if you wanted to look at them aswell.

Protein shake
http://www.myprotein.co.uk/bulk-supplies/flavoured-whey/whey-blend-(5lb)-(refill)/ - bulk flavoured
http://www.myprotein.co.uk/mp-max/whey-protein/whey-protein-(5lb)/ - Branded Flavoured
http://www.myprotein.co.uk/bulk-supplies/unflavoured-whey/impact-whey-protein-(unflavoured)-(refill)/ - Bulk Unflavoured - cheapest option

[Joga]

Exactly. So many people ask the question; "Can I gain muscle and lose fat at the same time?" and the answer, as a general rule at least, is a resounding no.

One requires an excess of calories and the other a deficit. Polar opposites.

Google "body recomposition".

It can be done, but is a slow process and requires much more attention to detail than just 'bulking' or 'cutting'.

Also Google "carb cycling".

[Joga]

I would just go with the best VFM protein, which would be from MyProtein or Bodybuilding Warehouse (these taste great too). You're not paying for anything extra with the expensive versions, just the brand.

[GBF]

Did you read my post? I only ask because it was a sports nutritionist who said the above!!!

sorry, Ive misread "nutrition representation"

[Joga]

Maximuscle, although a good product, is overly expensive. I don't think there's any reason to pay over the top when there other great products out there with much better composition that taste a whole lot better.

You won't go far wrong with Mypotein.com. They sell identicle maximuscle products (same composition, vitamins etc) but at much lower prices. Protein is protein but you will pay abit more for a protein isolate powder/blend than you would for a whey powder. Total protein is a blend of both whey and isolate so it's released at different stages. Below are some of the whey powders from MP if you wanted to look at them aswell.

Think you might mean whey and casein, not isolate, in terms of being processed by your body at different digestion rates. Isolate is whey protein with the lactose removed for those intolerant to it. Casein is a slower digesting form of protein.

[jason23]

sorry, Ive misread "nutrition representation"

.

[Marty 85]

Think you might mean whey and casein, not isolate, in terms of being processed by your body at different digestion rates. Isolate is whey protein with the lactose removed for those intolerant to it. Casein is a slower digesting form of protein.

Spot on mate, your right.

[ThepepeReina]

Jason

Whey protein is whey protein. You are paying for the name and probably better taste. I get the same results using asdas 17 quid protein, than maximuscles 40 quid stuff.

[jason23]

Jason

Whey protein is whey protein. You are paying for the name and probably better taste. I get the same results using asdas 17 quid protein, than maximuscles 40 quid stuff.

Fair enough....do any of the extra amino acids and vitamins in some of the more expensive stuff make any difference? Obviously I would rather buy the cheaper, better value option, but if the expensive stuff is better because of the extra stuff then I have to seriously consider it...

[ThepepeReina]

Fair enough....do any of the extra amino acids and vitamins in some of the more expensive stuff make any difference? Obviously I would rather buy the cheaper, better value option, but if the expensive stuff is better because of the extra stuff then I have to seriously consider it...

Hmm sometimes the expensive ones include glutamine, which is great for recovery, and the cheaper ones tend not to have that. Also get him to take a multi vitamin every day, and supplement with cod liver oil and vitamin D.

[jason23]

Hmm sometimes the expensive ones include glutamine, which is great for recovery, and the cheaper ones tend not to have that. Also get him to take a multi vitamin every day, and supplement with cod liver oil and vitamin D.

So what about this one - http://pasonline.co.uk/shop.php?cat=6&prod=27? I have a members 33% discount for that...

[Grobbelrevell]

Google "body recomposition".

It can be done, but is a slow process and requires much more attention to detail than just 'bulking' or 'cutting'.

Also Google "carb cycling".

I know that it can be done, which is why I stated that a 'no' answer to that question was "a general rule", unless of course you're willing to go to pretty extreme lengths.

I actually spent a bit of time in the last few months reading about carb cycling with a view to giving it a try myself, having done something similar in the past.

[Johnnyboy1973]

Personally, I use this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002DYIZH6/ref=oh_o00_s00_i00_details

and if you want it in bulk giving you a saving you can

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Optimum-Nutrition-Standard-Chocolate-Protein/dp/B000GIQT2O/ref=pd_sim_d_8

As far as supplements go, I go with

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0013GAOSI/ref=oh_o02_s00_i00_details

Outside of casein before bed, you wont go far wrong.

[Joga]

I know that it can be done, which is why I stated that a 'no' answer to that question was "a general rule", unless of course you're willing to go to pretty extreme lengths.

I actually spent a bit of time in the last few months reading about carb cycling with a view to giving it a try myself, having done something similar in the past.

I don't think it has to be to extreme lengths though- it's just a case of carefully tracking what you eat.

I will be doing this in a few weeks anyway so I'll let you know

[ThepepeReina]

I don't think it has to be to extreme lengths though- it's just a case of carefully tracking what you eat.

I will be doing this in a few weeks anyway so I'll let you know

I thought recomping was impossible, without a perfect diet, but after starting intermittent fasting its actually working.

[ThepepeReina]

So what about this one - http://pasonline.co.uk/shop.php?cat=6&prod=27? I have a members 33% discount for that...

Looks top, but i would never pay that for 40 servings. If you can afford it though its perfect.

[jason23]

Personally, I use this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002DYIZH6/ref=oh_o00_s00_i00_details

and if you want it in bulk giving you a saving you can

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Optimum-Nutrition-Standard-Chocolate-Protein/dp/B000GIQT2O/ref=pd_sim_d_8

As far as supplements go, I go with

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0013GAOSI/ref=oh_o02_s00_i00_details

Outside of casein before bed, you wont go far wrong.

I have to get stuff that is on the list on this website - http://www.informed-sport.com/registered-products

[ThepepeReina]

Anyone looking to bulk or add muscle get on this http://www.supplementcentre.com/ProductPage/12314/6.8kg-Matrix-Lean-Mass-XT.asp brothers arrived last week and its massive. It will last months. Its no good for a cut though, as full of calories and carbs.

[Johnnyboy1973]

I have to get stuff that is on the list on this website - http://www.informed-sport.com/registered-products

That's a shame, cos they're fucking pricy.

Quick question for the meatheads while they're on?

Do we argee there is only so much protein you should have in one sitting or is bollocks. If it isn't, how much?

[ThepepeReina]

That's a shame, cos they're fucking pricy.

Quick question for the meatheads while they're on?

Do we argee there is only so much protein you should have in one sitting or is bollocks. If it isn't, how much?

Bollocks, the body will just take longer to absorb it. That myth was created to sell protein shakes, and make people take them at intervals through the day. If you eat a meat mixed grill with 200 grams of protein, it will take your body hours to break it down, but it will use it.

I suggest anyone interested in adding muscle or losing fat read this whole website, but in terms of the protein myth i refer you to number 5 http://www.leangains.com/2010/10/top-ten-fasting-myths-debunked.html

[Joga]

I thought recomping was impossible, without a perfect diet, but after starting intermittent fasting its actually working.

I do IFing as well mate, well sometimes anyway. When I try to recomp I wanna do IFing but on my non-weights days only, cos I train first thing and don't see much value in then not eating for 4 hours afterwards. How do you structure it on weights/non-weights day out of interest?

[Joga]

Leangains

Martin Berkhan is the man. Destroyer of broscience.

[ThepepeReina]

Leangains

Martin Berkhan is the man. Destroyer of broscience.

He is the man. I suggested IF in the fat losing thread and sort of got shouted down so just left them to it.

[ThepepeReina]

I do IFing as well mate, well sometimes anyway. When I try to recomp I wanna do IFing but on my non-weights days only, cos I train first thing and don't see much value in then not eating for 4 hours afterwards. How do you structure it on weights/non-weights day out of interest?

Because of work mine is awkward. I can only lift in the night/evening, and dont train fasted. I eat between 2 and 10 pm every day and train about half 7. So i only have an hour then to get my cals in, which is a shame cause he advocates getting most of the daily caloires in after lifting. He reakons 40% before training, 60% after but mines the other way round. More carbs on training days which are mon, wed, fri, less on resting days.

[Joga]

So keep protein the same and just drop carbs on rest days? I think that's what I will do too as it just seems the easiest way of tracking it.

I have also suggested IF to a couple of mates who want to lose weight, they thought I was mental, they are now embarking on the Dukan Diet, which is ACTUALLY mental.

[ThepepeReina]

So keep protein the same and just drop carbs on rest days? I think that's what I will do too as it just seems the easiest way of tracking it.

I have also suggested IF to a couple of mates who want to lose weight, they thought I was mental, they are now embarking on the Dukan Diet, which is ACTUALLY mental.

Pretty much yeah, just got abit of stubborn fat left and nothing else has worked on it, this so far seems to be working whilst still making gains so fingers crossed. No idea how people train with zero carbs in them, that is crazy.

[jason23]

What is IF?
I have heard of the Dukan Diet - seems similar to Atkins no?

Looks top, but i would never pay that for 40 servings. If you can afford it though its perfect.

I wish I could....I guess it will have to be MyProtein. Is it worth considering the bundle http://www.myprotein.com/uk/pages/buildyourown? or which protein should I go for?

[Johnnyboy1973]

What is IF?

Intermittent fasting

[BigDanno]

this what i'm using at the moment as part of a calorie controlled diet it tastes a bit rank but it seems to work
http://www.supplementcentre.com/ProductPage/12097/5KG-Matrix-Anabolic-Protein.asp

[jason23]

Has anyone used this - http://stronglifts.com/?

Is it any good?

[Marty 85]

I'd take those articles with a pinch of salt mate. Fitness mags are filled with those types of "programs" promoting a new secret routine/diet. I'd steer well clear. The most important thing is his diet and from what you've said he seems to have that nailed with clean foods.

Does he use the net often? If he gets signed up to a forum like Muscletalk.co.uk he'll get plenty of good advice. It maybe helpful for him to create a log of his diet and routine and update it regularly over there. The guys will help him and he can keep track of his progress that way.

edit  i found this - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=117798141&page=1

the program the guy in the second post was referring to http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Starting_Strength_Wiki

A quick search on piratebay brings up a few of the different books you can download.

[5BigCups]

Exactly. So many people ask the question; "Can I gain muscle and lose fat at the same time?" and the answer, as a general rule at least, is a resounding no.

One requires an excess of calories and the other a deficit. Polar opposites.

Actually, of course you can. We're not talking about 'bulking' here, we're talking about making muscle gains whilst losing fat. If you're hitting the right amount of calories each day and your macronutrient ratio is suitable arranged then it's perfectly doable.

[5BigCups]

Has anyone used this - http://stronglifts.com/?

Is it any good?

All that's pretty much going on about is a workout whereby you lift 5x5 sets/reps, which is also known as 'strong lifts'.

This is a good way to make strength gains, though for muscle hypertrophy 8/12 reps is a better range to work in. It's hardly as revolutionary as that site's making out. It's a lifting strategy which has been used for years, and is worth switching to when trying to brake through a strength plateau or change up your workout. Just apply 5x5 to your current workout, if you're already following a half decent weights routine then it should be fine. Give it 6 weeks then change onto something else.

[Marty 85]

All that's pretty much going on about is a workout whereby you lift 5x5 sets/reps, which is also known as 'strong lifts'.

This is a good way to make strength gains, though for muscle hypertrophy 8/12 reps is a better range to work in. It's hardly as revolutionary as that site's making out. It's a lifting strategy which has been used for years, and is worth switching to when trying to brake through a strength plateau or change up your workout. Just apply 5x5 to your current workout, if you're already following a half decent weights routine then it should be fine. Give it 6 weeks then change onto something else.

Yeah it sounded like a normal HIT session.