Author Topic: 70,000 seats my arse  (Read 59369 times)

Online west_london_red

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,029
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #840 on: August 4, 2011, 12:29:56 PM »
You may have missed my point - they can't pick Stanley Park because concerts aren't allowed under the planning permission.

Alan, does Anfield have the licence for concerts etc? Im sure Paul McCartney played there a few years back. Maybe it was a one off?
"We have a manager, we have a team which will not change this year, we have games to play and matches to win. Get behind them, back them, give them our best support and lets see what they can do"

VdM

Online CraigDS

  • lite. Well lite in certain depts. AKA Nintendo
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,291
  • YNWA
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #841 on: August 4, 2011, 12:40:41 PM »
Cant find any up to date figures, but in 2008 156,000 took the stadium tour. I presume this is closed on match days. I can only guess this figure has risen a fair amount since then given the various changes that have taken place.
Watch out, I'm an FSG mole. No really I am - they planned my existence on here over a year before they bought the club.

Offline Alan_X

  • 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 27,515
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #842 on: August 4, 2011, 12:50:11 PM »
to be honest isn't a big reason they aren't allowed other events is minimising the disruption to the local community as it's in a heavily built up area?

That's the reason given in the planning application - but I think it's primarily the noise impact rather than disruption. Haven't read the decision notice for a while so I could be wrong.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline garcia-alonso

  • Kopite
  • ****
  • Posts: 816
    • SOS
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #843 on: August 4, 2011, 12:50:20 PM »
I think Anfield Plaza is more a case of - ok, you're going to build a new stadium; we want you to knock down the old one; what are going to do with the land to stop it looking like a bomb site...?

"the Planning and Public Protection Divisional Manager has secured commitments from applicants to... [establish] ... a fall back position for the screening and temporary landscaping of the “development windows” identified if there is a delay in delivering [the Anfield Plaza proposals]"

It does seem odd that council are making such a fuss over the 'loss' of regeneration benefits when what the benefit is, is so uncertain
It's not uncertain at all. They aren't talking about some huge, capital intensive regeneration scheme. It's all about making small improvements that will encourage more  people to visit and also live there, as well as  making life more pleasant for existing residents.
The Anfield Plaza idea will provide some jobs and business opportunities locally and bring more money into the local economy. There are some nice parts of Anfield, but am sure you'll agree that the area in the immediate vicinity of the club is pretty grim and until the Club makes it's mind up about redevelopment of the Stadium it's going to stay that way.

Offline Alan_X

  • 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 27,515
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #844 on: August 4, 2011, 12:50:43 PM »
Alan, does Anfield have the licence for concerts etc? Im sure Paul McCartney played there a few years back. Maybe it was a one off?

I think it was a one-off.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Peter McGurk

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,014
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #845 on: August 4, 2011, 01:05:59 PM »
It's not uncertain at all. ...

It's from the quotes mate (from the planning report on the application)

"...the contribution that the Plaza development can make towards economic regeneration, and in particular employment creation... is relatively notional at this stage as there is no mechanism or controls to put in place to ensure the development proceeds on the scale envisaged...the stated economic benefits that may materialise from the range of uses proposed at this stage is uncertain..."

« Last Edit: August 4, 2011, 01:08:50 PM by Peter McGurk »

Offline garcia-alonso

  • Kopite
  • ****
  • Posts: 816
    • SOS
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #846 on: August 4, 2011, 01:10:29 PM »
It's from the quotes mate (from the planning report on the application)


So I see. Sorry.  Nevertheless things have changed from the time that was written.

Offline Peter McGurk

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,014
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #847 on: August 4, 2011, 01:12:17 PM »
So I see. Sorry.  Nevertheless things have changed from the time that was written.

But not for the better - we've had a global recession since.  That was written in the 'good times'.

« Last Edit: August 4, 2011, 01:14:50 PM by Peter McGurk »

Offline DutchRed

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 4,299
  • Richard Ashcroft's Lovechild
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #848 on: August 4, 2011, 01:16:36 PM »
Start off with 60,000, but design the stadium so that it could be expanded to 100,000 seats. We can't go for a maximum of 60,000. We'd risk to be on the back foot again in about 25 years.
It's just sex and violence, melody and silence.

Offline Alan_X

  • 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 27,515
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #849 on: August 4, 2011, 01:32:04 PM »
Start off with 60,000, but design the stadium so that it could be expanded to 100,000 seats. We can't go for a maximum of 60,000. We'd risk to be on the back foot again in about 25 years.

100,000??!!! 
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Online CraigDS

  • lite. Well lite in certain depts. AKA Nintendo
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,291
  • YNWA
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #850 on: August 4, 2011, 01:33:59 PM »
100,000??!!!

Agreed it is a little on the small side.
Watch out, I'm an FSG mole. No really I am - they planned my existence on here over a year before they bought the club.

Offline Alan_X

  • 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 27,515
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #851 on: August 4, 2011, 01:35:12 PM »
Agreed it is a little on the small side.

Why not 200,000+? - we might as well outdo the Maracana...
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Online CraigDS

  • lite. Well lite in certain depts. AKA Nintendo
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,291
  • YNWA
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #852 on: August 4, 2011, 01:37:05 PM »
Do we need to build a train station for that amount?
Watch out, I'm an FSG mole. No really I am - they planned my existence on here over a year before they bought the club.

Offline Alan_X

  • 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 27,515
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #853 on: August 4, 2011, 01:37:53 PM »
Do we need to build a train station for that amount?

No - a small airport would do.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

  • hard and gagging
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,260
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #854 on: August 4, 2011, 01:49:23 PM »
Simple question from me. But what makes people think we will EVER need more than 65,000? We have never had that support even when the most successful team in europe and here for a sustained period. and that includes having pro rata cheaper tickets?  i cannot see any reason currently why we would be thinking 70,000 plus?
'Tramps like us, baby we were born to run!'

Online CraigDS

  • lite. Well lite in certain depts. AKA Nintendo
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,291
  • YNWA
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #855 on: August 4, 2011, 01:51:45 PM »
Simple question from me. But what makes people think we will EVER need more than 65,000? We have never had that support even when the most successful team in europe and here for a sustained period. and that includes having pro rata cheaper tickets?  i cannot see any reason currently why we would be thinking 70,000 plus?

You can't compare how it was back then to how it was now, the whole match going experience has totally changed.

And what you're saying also suggests we COULDNT of had that support back then - could Anfield hold that many for starters?
Watch out, I'm an FSG mole. No really I am - they planned my existence on here over a year before they bought the club.

Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

  • hard and gagging
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,260
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #856 on: August 4, 2011, 01:53:09 PM »
You can't compare how it was back then to how it was now, the whole match going experience has totally changed.

And what you're saying also suggests we COULDNT of had that support back then - could Anfield hold that many for starters?

Im saying at our height of power our support has hardly rocketed up.  im asking why people seem to think that may happen in the future?
'Tramps like us, baby we were born to run!'

Online CraigDS

  • lite. Well lite in certain depts. AKA Nintendo
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,291
  • YNWA
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #857 on: August 4, 2011, 01:56:35 PM »
Im saying at our height of power our support has hardly rocketed up.  im asking why people seem to think that may happen in the future?

But who is to say back then we couldnt of had 70k in Anfield, or more.

Was it only at 90% occupancy and we werent filling it?
Watch out, I'm an FSG mole. No really I am - they planned my existence on here over a year before they bought the club.

Online west_london_red

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,029
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #858 on: August 4, 2011, 02:00:44 PM »
Simple question from me. But what makes people think we will EVER need more than 65,000? We have never had that support even when the most successful team in europe and here for a sustained period. and that includes having pro rata cheaper tickets?  i cannot see any reason currently why we would be thinking 70,000 plus?

I think 65k shoould be an absolute limit, but 60k is far more sensible.

As for the old days vs nowa days, I think a lot it is to do with the greater number of OOTs. Budget airlines allow larger numbers of Irish and Scandenavians to attend games in a way that wasnt affordable 30 years ago, and now so many more people have cars that driving in from London or wherever is much easier now. Plus more people are probably into football then was the case 30 years ago when it was much more of a male working class game.
"We have a manager, we have a team which will not change this year, we have games to play and matches to win. Get behind them, back them, give them our best support and lets see what they can do"

VdM

Offline Azi

  • eckerslike
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,416
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #859 on: August 4, 2011, 02:01:02 PM »
Im saying at our height of power our support has hardly rocketed up.  im asking why people seem to think that may happen in the future?

back in the 70s/80s our fanbase was manily within the uk and our match day goes were mostly locals  , nowadays we have fans across the world coming in every week to go to matches and our fanbase is still growing as the worlds population grows expect more and more fans as the league gets more coverage across the world 

Offline Peter McGurk

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,014
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #860 on: August 4, 2011, 02:01:47 PM »
But who is to say back then we couldnt of had 70k in Anfield, or more.

Was it only at 90% occupancy and we werent filling it?

We used to be happy to crack a million over 21 games when the ground held 54,000.  We've never averaged even 50,000 even then. 

These days we may get more from outside the city but many are priced out and will continue to be so.

« Last Edit: August 4, 2011, 02:04:47 PM by Peter McGurk »

Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

  • hard and gagging
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,260
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #861 on: August 4, 2011, 02:04:15 PM »
aye i see your points people. Suppose im questioning also whether  this 'modern'  craze of football is sustainable to? is budget airlines/travel here for the long term? is travelling from london/over the UK sustainable with fuel costs?
'Tramps like us, baby we were born to run!'

Offline Peter McGurk

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,014
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #862 on: August 4, 2011, 02:07:25 PM »
aye i see your points people. Suppose im questioning also whether  this 'modern'  craze of football is sustainable to? is budget airlines/travel here for the long term? is travelling from london/over the UK sustainable with fuel costs?

I can see travel falling rather than increasing and for that matter the importance of matchday revenue to continue to decline in relation to merchandising and commercial activity.

Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

  • hard and gagging
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,260
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #863 on: August 4, 2011, 02:12:02 PM »
I can see travel falling rather than increasing and for that matter the importance of matchday revenue to continue to decline in relation to merchandising and commercial activity.

Kind of my point Peter. Low budget flying is starting to be a thing of the past, as is zipping in your car cheaply for a 220 miles to liverpool from london etc. Everthing i see, inflation, fuels prices, everything in everyday life suggests to me going to the game is getting harder. This will only have a one way impact on our support and that will be a decrease.

What are the indicators at this stage for attendances going up?  future success and our season ticket waiting list?   both them are very questionable.

Is the The modern craze of football here to stay?  again who knows?.
'Tramps like us, baby we were born to run!'

Offline ultimatewarrior

  • Anny Roader
  • ***
  • Posts: 270
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #864 on: August 4, 2011, 02:46:54 PM »
Just in relation to the Plaza. Since the council are trying to force the club to build new on Stanley Park and if this is the route we must take, shouldnt the club try to include as much as possible in the new stadium e.g. bars, shops, restaurants, cafes, museums, conference centres and maybe even a hotel. It doesnt make sense to me, that the club are forced into building new, then lose business to services around the ground that the club doesnt own.

The green area should be left as a public park and memorial for the hillsborough victims and the club would gladly pay for the upkeep of that park. If we are paying £300000 a year for the lease for SP, then we should try to attract as many consumers both on matchday and non matchday. I'm sure a new stadium could accomadate everything except a hotel.

Offline Alan_X

  • 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 27,515
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #865 on: August 4, 2011, 02:51:49 PM »
Just in relation to the Plaza. Since the council are trying to force the club to build new on Stanley Park and if this is the route we must take, shouldnt the club try to include as much as possible in the new stadium e.g. bars, shops, restaurants, cafes, museums, conference centres and maybe even a hotel. It doesnt make sense to me, that the club are forced into building new, then lose business to services around the ground that the club doesnt own.

The green area should be left as a public park and memorial for the hillsborough victims and the club would gladly pay for the upkeep of that park. If we are paying £300000 a year for the lease for SP, then we should try to attract as many consumers both on matchday and non matchday. I'm sure a new stadium could accomadate everything except a hotel.

We don't know that the council is forcing the club to build on Stanley Park. Anfield Plaza will be developed by the club so no business will be lost and finally the pitch is already protected in the planning permission as green space.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline ultimatewarrior

  • Anny Roader
  • ***
  • Posts: 270
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #866 on: August 4, 2011, 02:55:53 PM »
We don't know that the council is forcing the club to build on Stanley Park. Anfield Plaza will be developed by the club so no business will be lost and finally the pitch is already protected in the planning permission as green space.
Ok let me rephrase that. If it happens that the club has to build new, are we obliged to build the anfield plaza or is it an option?

Offline Alan_X

  • 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 27,515
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #867 on: August 4, 2011, 03:23:26 PM »
Yes - it's in the planning approval and is part of the regeneration of the area. Retaining the pitch as green space is a specific requirement. The other elements are granted as outline approval but the general balance of provision will need to be something like that.

From the planning approval:

8.10.6 Phasing and Open Space/Public Realm

Initially the open space and public realm areas of the Plaza would be created during the first phase of the development of the site, which would take approximately twelve months following the demolition of the existing stadium, possibly with adjacent development plots being developed at the same time, subject to successful marketing in the interim period and the obtaining of reserved matters consent. Following the completion of the new pedestrian routes, the temporary routes and the peripheral areas adjacent to these routes and public spaces would be combined into a series of development sites. The scale of these new buildings would consist of a mixture of primarily 3 and 4 storey buildings which would provide a balance between providing enclosure of the Plaza and its open spaces but also protect the amenity of nearby properties. Following discussions with the Planning and Public Protection Divisional Manager the applicants have agreed to lay out the open space and public realm works in the first instance, together with an agreement to secure or temporarily landscape the development plots if development was not forthcoming in the first instance. The open space/public realm would compensate for that lost in Stanley Park and is to be designed to create greenspace and pedestrian linkages with both the Stadium Concourse and Stanley Park. The Planning and Public Protection Divisional Manager considers that the Plaza site is being developed in a manner which creates an acceptable urban design and would make a significant contribution to the regeneration of Anfield and Breckfield.

8.10.7 Development Opportunity and Regeneration

All elements of the Anfield Plaza element of the proposals, including that of the range of uses are in outline format, and should planning permission be granted it is likely that development on this site would not commence until 2009 at the earliest. In terms of the land use allocations, the contribution that the Plaza development can make towards economic regeneration, and in particular employment creation, in North Liverpool in general and Anfield/Breckfield areas in particular is relatively notional at this stage as there is no mechanism or controls to put in place to ensure the development proceeds on the scale envisaged. It is estimated that around 641 Full Time Equivalent (FTE) jobs (generating an estimated £11.68m of gross employment income) could be accommodated in the proposed development. The net additional number of FTE jobs is estimated at 368 which allows for the displacement of certain commercial and office/community related activities from Anfield/Breckfield into the new Plaza. However this would ultimately depend upon the precise nature of the development and market conditions locally.

Having said that the range of uses and facilities proposed and the scale and massing of the buildings are complementary to the role of this area as a local centre with a high residual and closely formed residential community. Prior to and through the application process the brief for Anfield Plaza has been developed and the Planning and Public Protection Divisional Manager has secured commitments from applicants to ensure that 1.6 ha open space provision and public realm works will be implemented in the first instance with a fall back position for the screening and temporary landscaping of the “development windows” identified if there is a delay in delivering these.

Whilst the stated economic benefits that may materialise from the range of uses proposed at this stage is uncertain, what is clear however is that the relocation of the stadium from its present position will remove an imposing structure, with a site area of approximately 30,000 m2, which extends close up to residential properties in Lake Street, Lothair Road, Skerries Road and Walton Breck Road. This will create opportunities for more appropriate building in terms of scale and massing in their place and will in all likelihood complement and enliven other regeneration work that is being carried out in this area.

To protect the residential amenity of adjacent occupiers and ensure that the development proceeds on the scale envisaged within the development brief, the Planning and Public Protection Divisional Manager has imposed restrictions, in the form of conditions, relating to the scale, floor areas and operating hours of the uses proposed together with a minimum provision of 1.6 hectares of open space on the site of the existing stadium.
« Last Edit: August 4, 2011, 03:28:23 PM by Alan_F »
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Online west_london_red

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,029
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #868 on: August 4, 2011, 03:35:37 PM »
aye i see your points people. Suppose im questioning also whether  this 'modern'  craze of football is sustainable to? is budget airlines/travel here for the long term? is travelling from london/over the UK sustainable with fuel costs?

The modern craze has been going since the creation of the premier league in 1992 and continued to get stronger over that period, so i dont think it can be seen as some sort of flash in the pan after 18 years. We still havent even reached the peak yet based on the ever increasing amount of money in the game, never mind anywhere close to a dip in popularity, and thats while we go through the worst recession since the 1920's.

The cost of travel could be a factor, but I dont think its reached that stage yet, and while the cost of filling the car up to go to Liverpool might put people off, the cost of fuel impacts just about everything from going to the local to watch the game, going out for a night on the town etc. Theres very little in life thats not directly or indirectly effected by fuel costs.
"We have a manager, we have a team which will not change this year, we have games to play and matches to win. Get behind them, back them, give them our best support and lets see what they can do"

VdM

Offline Alan_X

  • 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 27,515
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #869 on: August 4, 2011, 03:37:48 PM »
One thing that's interesting reading that again is this:

...the relocation of the stadium from its present position will remove an imposing structure, with a site area of approximately 30,000 m2, which extends close up to residential properties in Lake Street, Lothair Road, Skerries Road and Walton Breck Road. This will create opportunities for more appropriate building in terms of scale and massing in their place and will in all likelihood complement and enliven other regeneration work that is being carried out in this area.

From that it's easy to see why there would be resistance to the idea of an extended Anfield as a new Main Stand/Anfield Road and possible extra tier on the Centenary Stand? would increase the massing substantially. The height of the new stands would be significantly higher to achieve a 60,000+ capacity.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline ultimatewarrior

  • Anny Roader
  • ***
  • Posts: 270
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #870 on: August 4, 2011, 03:45:36 PM »
The modern craze has been going since the creation of the premier league in 1992 and continued to get stronger over that period, so i dont think it can be seen as some sort of flash in the pan after 18 years. We still havent even reached the peak yet based on the ever increasing amount of money in the game, never mind anywhere close to a dip in popularity, and thats while we go through the worst recession since the 1920's.

The cost of travel could be a factor, but I dont think its reached that stage yet, and while the cost of filling the car up to go to Liverpool might put people off, the cost of fuel impacts just about everything from going to the local to watch the game, going out for a night on the town etc. Theres very little in life thats not directly or indirectly effected by fuel costs.
If fuel costs do go up and less and less people travel to games, do we still anticipate a rise in ticket prices?

Offline ultimatewarrior

  • Anny Roader
  • ***
  • Posts: 270
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #871 on: August 4, 2011, 03:49:37 PM »
One thing that's interesting reading that again is this:



From that it's easy to see why there would be resistance to the idea of an extended Anfield as a new Main Stand/Anfield Road and possible extra tier on the Centenary Stand? would increase the massing substantially. The height of the new stands would be significantly higher to achieve a 60,000+ capacity.
Isnt that what the whole debate is about. We all want to stay at Anfield if it can be expanded to 60k and beyond but many people are saying i cant happen because of right to light and stuff.

Online west_london_red

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,029
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #872 on: August 4, 2011, 03:56:16 PM »
If fuel costs do go up and less and less people travel to games, do we still anticipate a rise in ticket prices?

I dont think the cost of fuel (in terms of travel costs for fans) will impact directly the clubs decision on ticket pricing. That will always be set by demand and how many bums they expect to get on seats I suspect. Something along the lines of "were not increasing tickets prices because the OOTs cannot afford to drive to Liverpool" wont happen.
"We have a manager, we have a team which will not change this year, we have games to play and matches to win. Get behind them, back them, give them our best support and lets see what they can do"

VdM

Online redhot-robbie

  • Anny Roader
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
  • and could he play!
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #873 on: August 4, 2011, 04:00:40 PM »
One thing that's interesting reading that again is this:

...the relocation of the stadium from its present position will remove an imposing structure, with a site area of approximately 30,000 m2, which extends close up to residential properties in Lake Street, Lothair Road, Skerries Road and Walton Breck Road. This will create opportunities for more appropriate building in terms of scale and massing in their place and will in all likelihood complement and enliven other regeneration work that is being carried out in this area.

From that it's easy to see why there would be resistance to the idea of an extended Anfield as a new Main Stand/Anfield Road and possible extra tier on the Centenary Stand? would increase the massing substantially. The height of the new stands would be significantly higher to achieve a 60,000+ capacity.

That is interesting Alan.  Planning and building regs are an absolute minefield, I don't know too much about it personally but I have friends who do.  I think that is what Ayre / Henry were on about a few weeks ago.   Would love to stay at Anfield but I can't see a way forward quick enough for the club.  Lets face it too many more years with the capacity we have and we are going to struggle.
"What you achieve in life, echoes in eternity"

Online redhot-robbie

  • Anny Roader
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
  • and could he play!
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #874 on: August 4, 2011, 04:03:35 PM »
I think 65k shoould be an absolute limit, but 60k is far more sensible.

Are you insane mate?   60k should be the starting point with ability to increase to 70k+ (Wouldn't got as far as Dutch Red though) or even 65k to start with an 'old fashion' design allowing the corners to be filled in at a later date.
"What you achieve in life, echoes in eternity"

Offline Alan_X

  • 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood.
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 27,515
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #875 on: August 4, 2011, 04:07:14 PM »
Isnt that what the whole debate is about. We all want to stay at Anfield if it can be expanded to 60k and beyond but many people are saying i cant happen because of right to light and stuff.

Kind of. Right to Light is a specific requirement that can be assessed on a house by house and window by window basis. That comment is about a general preference to reduce the height of all buildings in the area to a maximum of 3-4 storeys.  In other words, even if rights of light issues could be sorted out, based on that reasoning, the planners would resist any increase in the size of what is already an "imposing structure"...
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Online west_london_red

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,029
  • watching me? but whose watching you watching me?
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #876 on: August 4, 2011, 04:11:34 PM »
Are you insane mate?   60k should be the starting point with ability to increase to 70k+ (Wouldn't got as far as Dutch Red though) or even 65k to start with an 'old fashion' design allowing the corners to be filled in at a later date.

Sorry, I phrased that very badly, when i say absolute limit i mean in terms of the the stadium when its built, and can be expended up at a later date by filling in the corners etc, not 60/65k after expansion! Poor use of English on my part there.
"We have a manager, we have a team which will not change this year, we have games to play and matches to win. Get behind them, back them, give them our best support and lets see what they can do"

VdM

Online redhot-robbie

  • Anny Roader
  • ***
  • Posts: 495
  • and could he play!
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #877 on: August 4, 2011, 04:13:29 PM »
Sorry, I phrased that very badly, when i say absolute limit i mean in terms of the the stadium when its built, and can be expended up at a later date by filling in the corners etc, not 60/65k after expansion! Poor use of English on my part there.
No worries and I agree start smaller with plans in place for expansion if/when attendence levels dictate
"What you achieve in life, echoes in eternity"

Online conman

  • Ohh aaaah just a little bit, Ooh aahh, a little bit more. Aerial stalker perv. Not cool enough to get the lolz.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 21,012
  • sound as a pound
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #878 on: August 4, 2011, 04:23:40 PM »
Simple question from me. But what makes people think we will EVER need more than 65,000? We have never had that support even when the most successful team in europe and here for a sustained period. and that includes having pro rata cheaper tickets?  i cannot see any reason currently why we would be thinking 70,000 plus?
Transport was difficult back then in comparison to now, I mean flights were damn expensive (so Irish & Scandinavians wouldn't be so able to travel), Im not sure of the cost of trains, but Cars wouldn't have been so plentiful and the roads wouldn't have been as direct as they are now.

So i guess the numbers that attended from the early to mid 90's & back were mostly local support.

Offline Peter McGurk

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,014
Re: 70,000 seats my arse
« Reply #879 on: August 4, 2011, 04:55:17 PM »
Yes - it's in the planning approval and is part of the regeneration of the area. Retaining the pitch as green space is a specific requirement. The other elements are granted as outline approval but the general balance of provision will need to be something like that.

From the planning approval:

8.10.6 Phasing and Open Space/Public Realm

Initially the open space and public realm areas of the Plaza would be created during the first phase of the development of the site, which would take approximately twelve months following the demolition of the existing stadium, possibly with adjacent development plots being developed at the same time, subject to successful marketing in the interim period and the obtaining of reserved matters consent. Following the completion of the new pedestrian routes, the temporary routes and the peripheral areas adjacent to these routes and public spaces would be combined into a series of development sites. The scale of these new buildings would consist of a mixture of primarily 3 and 4 storey buildings which would provide a balance between providing enclosure of the Plaza and its open spaces but also protect the amenity of nearby properties. Following discussions with the Planning and Public Protection Divisional Manager the applicants have agreed to lay out the open space and public realm works in the first instance, together with an agreement to secure or temporarily landscape the development plots if development was not forthcoming in the first instance. The open space/public realm would compensate for that lost in Stanley Park and is to be designed to create greenspace and pedestrian linkages with both the Stadium Concourse and Stanley Park. The Planning and Public Protection Divisional Manager considers that the Plaza site is being developed in a manner which creates an acceptable urban design and would make a significant contribution to the regeneration of Anfield and Breckfield.

8.10.7 Development Opportunity and Regeneration

All elements of the Anfield Plaza element of the proposals, including that of the range of uses are in outline format, and should planning permission be granted it is likely that development on this site would not commence until 2009 at the earliest. In terms of the land use allocations, the contribution that the Plaza development can make towards economic regeneration, and in particular employment creation, in North Liverpool in general and Anfield/Breckfield areas in particular is relatively notional at this stage as there is no mechanism or controls to put in place to ensure the development proceeds on the scale envisaged. It is estimated that around 641 Full Time Equivalent (FTE) jobs (generating an estimated £11.68m of gross employment income) could be accommodated in the proposed development. The net additional number of FTE jobs is estimated at 368 which allows for the displacement of certain commercial and office/community related activities from Anfield/Breckfield into the new Plaza. However this would ultimately depend upon the precise nature of the development and market conditions locally.

Having said that the range of uses and facilities proposed and the scale and massing of the buildings are complementary to the role of this area as a local centre with a high residual and closely formed residential community. Prior to and through the application process the brief for Anfield Plaza has been developed and the Planning and Public Protection Divisional Manager has secured commitments from applicants to ensure that 1.6 ha open space provision and public realm works will be implemented in the first instance with a fall back position for the screening and temporary landscaping of the “development windows” identified if there is a delay in delivering these.

Whilst the stated economic benefits that may materialise from the range of uses proposed at this stage is uncertain, what is clear however is that the relocation of the stadium from its present position will remove an imposing structure, with a site area of approximately 30,000 m2, which extends close up to residential properties in Lake Street, Lothair Road, Skerries Road and Walton Breck Road. This will create opportunities for more appropriate building in terms of scale and massing in their place and will in all likelihood complement and enliven other regeneration work that is being carried out in this area.

To protect the residential amenity of adjacent occupiers and ensure that the development proceeds on the scale envisaged within the development brief, the Planning and Public Protection Divisional Manager has imposed restrictions, in the form of conditions, relating to the scale, floor areas and operating hours of the uses proposed together with a minimum provision of 1.6 hectares of open space on the site of the existing stadium.


In this wording and very unusual wording elsewhere in the planning report it seems the club is obliged to create the 'development sites' but not actually to develop them.  It is however obliged to create the public open space (the 'old' pitch)

« Last Edit: August 4, 2011, 05:05:35 PM by Peter McGurk »