Topic: 70,000 seats my arse

[redprodigal]

Might close this. Things have moved on. Capacity is being discussed in the 'Basombe' thread as well as other things.

Fair enough, wasn't sure where to put it. The title swung it for me.

[Alan_X]

No problem - you're right, might leave it open as capacity will be a topic for discussion. Have a look in the Basombe thread though - some interesting post in there.

[Peter McGurk]

Guardian:

"Manchester United are adding as many as 24,000 fans on to crowd attendances compared with the actual number of people watching games at Old Trafford, according to police data.

Mr. Ferguson's team have not had a single crowd over 70,000 for a league match, police say, not taking in Monday's game against Manchester City. The club, in contrast, recorded attendances in excess of 75,000 every time. Instead Greater Manchester police's figures claim the average crowd for league matches, excluding City, is 10,000 below what the club say. The police records state it is 65,601 rather than the official figure of 75,527. In all competitions it is 61,739 rather than the club's 73,653.

United are still the best-supported club in England by some distance but the new set of figures claim Old Trafford was not even half-full for the Capital One Cup tie against Newcastle in September. The police recorded the number of people who passed through the turnstiles at 33,409. United gave the crowd as 46,358. In the next round, against West Ham, the disparity was even bigger. The police put down the crowd as 51,724, whereas United recorded it as 71,081.

When United played Cluj in the Champions League in December, having qualified for the knockout stages, the crowd was announced as 71,521. In fact, the police say it was 46,894.

The disparity is because United, in common with other clubs, release the number of people who bought tickets, whether or not they attend. The police keep their own record of actual match-goers for safety purposes and have released the data to the Redsaway fans' website under the Freedom of Information Act.

The figures show the high number of supporters who will buy tickets for matches without going. Arsenal are among the clubs who suffer the same problem on a large scale.

United's largest crowd of the season for a league match, according to the police, was 69,933 for Liverpool's visit in January (the club put it at 75,501). The lowest was against Southampton later that month. On that occasion the official attendance was given at 75,600 when, according to the police, the genuine figure was 59,766. In other words, almost 16,000 ticket-holders stayed away.

The Real Madrid match in the Champions League attracted the one 70,000-plus attendance at Old Trafford this season, in the data. The police recorded it at 72,299 whereas United declared it was 74,959, lower than any domestic league match because of Uefa's seating restrictions"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/apr/12/manchester-united-attendances-police-figures

[LFC_4_life]

But as the article states, they are still selling 70,000+ tickets so from a revenue standpoint, I don't think the club cares that people buy tickets and don't turn up.

[redtel]

Damn right they don't care as long as they sell 76,000 seats.

The difference is that all Season Ticket Holders had to agree to purchase all CL games + FAC games + LC games

There was no box to tick for auto cup scheme that we are familiar with.

I think this was challenged by a group of fans so I don't know if it's still the case that you get your credit card docked for the £40 + for all non PL games. This gives a sell out for many games.

Sounds as though it's still the case from the figures posted above by the police.

If we expand to 50,000+ would we fill it or would S.T. holder's be expected to cough up for all Cup games to pay for said expansion?

I'm not clear if O.T. is the only ground to do this.

[naka]

celtic do this all the time
they count tickets sold rather than bums on seats

[LiamG]

Don't Arsenal do it as well?

[CraigDS]

Don't Arsenal do it as well?

Yeah, they were the only ones I knew of personally who do it.

[RJH]

I think a lot of clubs do it - Liverpool are in the minority of those that don't.

(Or at least they were a few years ago - I'm not aware of that changing)

[CraigDS]

I think a lot of clubs do it - Liverpool are in the minority of those that don't.

(Or at least they were a few years ago - I'm not aware of that changing)

I'd imagine given the lower capacity of the stadium and generally high amounts there anyway the difference wouldn't be all that much.

I know when we had some low attendances under Hodgson that the capacities disclosed were also low.

[GoldenGloves25]

Don't Arsenal do it as well?

Yeah, their attendances are permanently at 60,000, even when the place is blatantly half full.

[nickyd186]

Source?

It's common sense rather than being told by a source

[Lee J]

It's common sense rather than being told by a source

;-)

[CraigDS]

It's common sense rather than being told by a source

So answer me this, when we expanded the Centenary what did the capacity drop by?

To give you a clue, the answer is 0.

It is possible to build behind during the season, and finish it during the summer.

[Graeme]

Completely different scenario. The addition of the Upper Centernary was building a stand over an existing one. There are no other parts of the current stadium that this could be done with.

[CraigDS]

Completely different scenario. The addition of the Upper Centernary was building a stand over an existing one. There are no other parts of the current stadium that this could be done with.

That's one example close to home, other stadiums (and buildings in general) around the world have done this before.

[INABITSKI]

I thought they said a while back they could add on the main stand without affecting any reduction in seats across the ground. That would be done building behind and above when needs be throughout the summer/season.

[spider-neil]

If it drops by 502 places every year I'll have one in 49 years :-(

I'd have thought the waiting list will be wiped out when redevelopment is completed.

[oojason]

I thought they said a while back they could add on the main stand without affecting any reduction in seats across the ground. That would be done building behind and above when needs be throughout the summer/season.

I think they did mate - but depends on what sort of plans they're going to come up with for the redevelopment. I imagine a fair few people sitting in the cramped main stand on wooden seats with poor sightlinesmay not be happy with paying premium seating prices if left relatively untouched.

I'd have thought the waiting list will be wiped out when redevelopment is completed.

25000 on that list - and it's been closed for around 6 years now (?) so I imagine there'd be a fair few more wanting to put their name down.

Sadly, the club did the figures for a larger ground - claimed it wasn't feasible, said it'd cost too much plus for the improvements to traffic infrastructure etc.

Then came up with the cheaper option re-development 'sweet-spot' of 60,000 capacity - which keeps the majority still on that list - ensuring there's still a demand as they increase the number of premium priced seating at the expense of the traditional normal price seats and some ill-thought-out price tiering.

Apparently we need to do this to 'compete'. (we'll still be 15,000 in capacity and revenues behind the Mancs and the London ticket-priced teams)

[CraigDS]

This isn't the thread to discuss all this oojason, but feel free to repost it in the Stadium sub-forum and we can have the discussion all over again why the council have set the capacity limit (think it's actually 62k from memory) before a massive amount needs spending on transport issues.

[spider-neil]

I think they did mate - but depends on what sort of plans they're going to come up with for the redevelopment. I imagine a fair few people sitting in the cramped main stand on wooden seats with poor sightlinesmay not be happy with paying premium seating prices if left relatively untouched.


25000 on that list - and it's been closed for around 6 years now (?) so I imagine there'd be a fair few more wanting to put their name down.

Sadly, the club did the figures for a larger ground - claimed it wasn't feasible, said it'd cost too much plus for the improvements to traffic infrastructure etc.

Then came up with the cheaper option re-development 'sweet-spot' of 60,000 capacity - which keeps the majority still on that list - ensuring there's still a demand as they increase the number of premium priced seating at the expense of the traditional normal price seats and some ill-thought-out price tiering.

Apparently we need to do this to 'compete'. (ignoring that we'll be 15,000 in capacity and revenues behind the Mancs and the London-priced teams)

I'd imagine there are a lot of names on the waiting list that already have aquired a season tick but haven't bothered to remove their name.
Redevelopment will open up 20,000 spaces and I doubt the waiting list would extend beyond that.

[oojason]

I'd imagine there are a lot of names on the waiting list that already have aquired a season tick but haven't bothered to remove their name.
Redevelopment will open up 20,000 spaces and I doubt the waiting list would extend beyond that.

You're probably right mate (be great if the list removed people who had since got tickets though), though there may be extra percentage of away fans, more sponsor/VIPs seating, former players seats, more corporate & media seating (possibly some exec boxes), and hopefully more disabled and a kids section etc - to be taken from the extra capacity (15,000 extra?).

[oojason]

This isn't the thread to discuss all this oojason, but feel free to repost it in the Stadium sub-forum and we can have the discussion all over again why the council have set the capacity limit (think it's actually 62k from memory) before a massive amount needs spending on transport issues.

I think that was relevant to this topic - if you don't then let a mod know.

[CraigDS]

Cheers mods.

This thread is actually a great thread to read for anyone thinking we need upwards of the 60 odd thousand being mentioned at the moment, if it's the thread I think it is Alan has posted some excellent stuff in it over the time its been open.

The fact remains, even if we had the demand for a 70,000, for example, that LCC has already said that for anything above around abouts 61/62k we would need to rework all the transport links. They are pretty awful for 45k currently, add another 15k to that and it's going to be shocking, another 10k on top of that and we would be in trouble.

The cost of doing this is going to be pretty astronomical to say the least, and other than if we can persuade LCC and the Rail companies that there is enough demand to cover the cost of all the railway works outside of the 19 times a year we have home games, it is just not going to happen.

[TSC]

Cheers mods.

This thread is actually a great thread to read for anyone thinking we need upwards of the 60 odd thousand being mentioned at the moment, if it's the thread I think it is Alan has posted some excellent stuff in it over the time its been open.

The fact remains, even if we had the demand for a 70,000, for example, that LCC has already said that for anything above around abouts 61/62k we would need to rework all the transport links. They are pretty awful for 45k currently, add another 15k to that and it's going to be shocking, another 10k on top of that and we would be in trouble.

The cost of doing this is going to be pretty astronomical to say the least, and other than if we can persuade LCC and the Rail companies that there is enough demand to cover the cost of all the railway works outside of the 19 times a year we have home games, it is just not going to happen.

Personally I think this is a bit of a red herring.  In my experience most people get a combo of driving/taxis/buses to the games.  Yep also a lot get the northern line to Sandhills, Kirkdale etc and then walk to the ground via a pub or 2. But don't think another 15-20kk would change this to any great extent, certainly not to justify the opening up of some dead train line.  In the 80's with the standing kop I'm sure we'd a capacity of around 55k and there were no great probs re transport.

[CraigDS]

Personally I think this is a bit of a red herring.  In my experience most people get a combo of driving/taxis/buses to the games.  Yep also a lot get the northern line to Sandhills, Kirkdale etc and then walk to the ground via a pub or 2. But don't think another 15-20kk would change this to any great extent, certainly not to justify the opening up of some dead train line.  In the 80's with the standing kop I'm sure we'd a capacity of around 55k and there were no great probs re transport.

I'd imagine back then a lot greater proportion of those 55k came from within walking/bus distance than they do these days.

I think that's the point with regards to driving/taxis/buses - the roads around Anfield are pretty bad now with 45k, up that by 25k more people and it'll be a nightmare. The idea would be to get people off the roads as much as possible until further away from the local area, which is why the train line is mentioned often.

[Nessy76]

I'd imagine there are a lot of names on the waiting list that already have aquired a season tick but haven't bothered to remove their name.
Redevelopment will open up 20,000 spaces and I doubt the waiting list would extend beyond that.

They are unlikely to offer all the new seats as season tickets, for various reasons.
Season ticket holders tend to spend less at the ground than people who just come in for the odd match.

[StrikingMidfield]

Just to tell everyone here we're ranked 19th of all European clubs for average attendance. This might have been posted before, but it's still  pretty impressive. For one, we don't have a big stadium. Can't sell seats for the pubs outside Anfield. Our average for 2012/2013 is 44,731. Our capacity is 45,276. Got sick, season ticket holders not wanting to get out to games ( ) and all the other reasons can easily explain why a few hundred didn't get out to the game. Also it's very impressive considering how expensive tickets to any EPL team is.

As far as seating expansion goes, I'd do it slowly. Add 5,000 and see what happens. If those are taken instantly then add more. 

[Nessy76]

Just to tell everyone here we're ranked 19th of all European clubs for average attendance. This might have been posted before, but it's still  pretty impressive. For one, we don't have a big stadium. Can't sell seats for the pubs outside Anfield. Our average for 2012/2013 is 44,731. Our capacity is 45,276. Got sick, season ticket holders not wanting to get out to games ( ) and all the other reasons can easily explain why a few hundred didn't get out to the game. Also it's very impressive considering how expensive tickets to any EPL team is.

Also depends how many away tickets are taken up.

As far as seating expansion goes, I'd do it slowly. Add 5,000 and see what happens. If those are taken instantly then add more.

I think you could jump to 60k and fill it regularly. The additional cost and disruptions of ongoing building work, not to mention the design issues, might make piecemeal expansion less desirable than biting the bullet and doing it all at once.

[keano7]

It would sell out against the Category A teams but against the Category B+C teams it would definitely struggle. For the majority of games currently you can purchase a ticket through the members card/fancard system or late availability as an option open nearer the fixture - meaning you have every opportunity to buy a ticket for most home games if you wish. For me, the rising ticket prices over the last few years have led to many people staying away who can simply not afford to ship out £50+ per game. If we increased the capacity to 60k then ticket prices will obviously increase as well. It's a catch 22 scenario but until ticket prices are capped or reduced, more and more fans aren't going to be able to go despite an increased capacity.

[Peter McGurk]

It would sell out against the Category A teams but against the Category B+C teams it would definitely struggle. For the majority of games currently you can purchase a ticket through the members card/fancard system or late availability as an option open nearer the fixture - meaning you have every opportunity to buy a ticket for most home games if you wish. For me, the rising ticket prices over the last few years have led to many people staying away who can simply not afford to ship out £50+ per game. If we increased the capacity to 60k then ticket prices will obviously increase as well. It's a catch 22 scenario but until ticket prices are capped or reduced, more and more fans aren't going to be able to go despite an increased capacity.

But what if all of the new seats were the cheaper seats?

[Nessy76]

It would sell out against the Category A teams but against the Category B+C teams it would definitely struggle. For the majority of games currently you can purchase a ticket through the members card/fancard system or late availability as an option open nearer the fixture - meaning you have every opportunity to buy a ticket for most home games if you wish. For me, the rising ticket prices over the last few years have led to many people staying away who can simply not afford to ship out £50+ per game. If we increased the capacity to 60k then ticket prices will obviously increase as well. It's a catch 22 scenario but until ticket prices are capped or reduced, more and more fans aren't going to be able to go despite an increased capacity.

It's actually pretty hard for "casual" fans to get tickets for any game these days. If the club needed to sell them, they could do so fairly easily. That lot across the park actually put adverts for tickets up on billboards around the city centre, in one of their most successful league seasons in decades. People can see it, and there's a number you can call, and you get your tickets. Liverpool do nothing like that. There's no point at the moment, as we sell pretty much to capacity every game.

Make them easier to buy and more people would buy them. Yes, making them cheaper would help, too. But I don't expect to see that happening.

[keano7]

It's actually pretty hard for "casual" fans to get tickets for any game these days. If the club needed to sell them, they could do so fairly easily. That lot across the park actually put adverts for tickets up on billboards around the city centre, in one of their most successful league seasons in decades. People can see it, and there's a number you can call, and you get your tickets. Liverpool do nothing like that. There's no point at the moment, as we sell pretty much to capacity every game.

Make them easier to buy and more people would buy them. Yes, making them cheaper would help, too. But I don't expect to see that happening.

You've got to remember Liverpool is a working class city. If ticket prices went up to £48-£50 per game to see Wigan/Hull I'd be very surprised if we sold out a 60k stadium. I'd say if you're a frequent user of this site and have a members card then your in a good state to get at least 5-8 home games per season if not more. The exchange on here for the 'lesser' games always seems to have plenty of spares available so my point is that tickets are not like gold dust. Also depends on how the club is doing in a few years down the line - if we're challenging again then we'd get more bums on seats but a similar situation to what we have been doing the last few years and we'd definitely struggle. They're not going to make 'cheap' seats in the new Main Stand either when that's already classed as category A/B in ticket prices currently behind pillars! 

[Nessy76]

You've got to remember Liverpool is a working class city.

Well, partly. But there's a lot of money here as well. And in the neighbouring areas. If I'd told you ten years ago what our ticket prices would be today, would you have predicted we'd still be more or less filling Anfield every game? Working class fans forking out £50 a week? In a recession, at that?

(I'm not saying I like this situation, by the way, I'd prefer to see much cheaper tickets, I'm lucky if I can afford to get to a couple of games a season these days)

If ticket prices went up to £48-£50 per game to see Wigan/Hull I'd be very surprised if we sold out a 60k stadium.

I don't know if we would, but it wouldn't surprise me at all. We do 45,000 without it even being at all obvious to anyone not already in the know how you go about getting a ticket. There are more scientific ways of doing analysis like this, but to me that fact alone suggests that there are a lot of people who probably never go to the match because they don't think they can just call the ticket office and buy a ticket. Or turn up on the day and pay cash at the turnstile. If you're a student, new to the city, or just in town for the weekend, maybe at a conference at the BT centre, then there is a good chance you might well want to go to a game. And as it's a one-off, the price is less of an issue.

I'd say if you're a frequent user of this site and have a members card then your in a good state to get at least 5-8 home games per season if not more.

But I'm talking about the thousands of Liverpool fans who are probably not members of this site and who certainly don't have a members card. We're already pretty much at capacity every game, that's either an unbeliveably large co-incidence, or we can definitely already sell more tickets to existing supporters. Add in the people the club isn't reaching yet, and...

The exchange on here for the 'lesser' games always seems to have plenty of spares available so my point is that tickets are not like gold dust.

Again, you're looking at this from a position of someone "in the know". If you go on the club website, even those "lesser games" are pretty much always sold out a long time before kick-off. Now you and I know that there are a dozen ways and means to get a ticket if you need a ticket, and that for some games it's easier than others, but to the world at large, the millions of people out there, sold out means sold out.

A few empty seats at the back of the stand for the odd game isn't really a disaster, either. We need to be selling an optimum number over the season. If that means some games do better than others, it's not the end of the world. If the stadium is full for every game, it's clearly not big enough.

Also depends on how the club is doing in a few years down the line - if we're challenging again then we'd get more bums on seats but a similar situation to what we have been doing the last few years and we'd definitely struggle. They're not going to make 'cheap' seats in the new Main Stand either when that's already classed as category A/B in ticket prices currently behind pillars!

I'd agree with your first point here up to a point, the second is spot on.

[Zeb]

But what if all of the new seats were the cheaper seats?

Has that ever happened? Maximising revenue is the thing isn't it? I've a strong suspicion we won't see major ticket price rises for the average punter (heh that's a tin of worms as we've seen already with plans for next season) but I can't see it meaning 10k 'cheaper seats' if the stands to be redeveloped are the ones being widely mentioned. Am I really wide of the mark there if we assume that certain places in the stadium will come at a premium over others?

[Peter McGurk]

Has that ever happened? Maximising revenue is the thing isn't it? I've a strong suspicion we won't see major ticket price rises for the average punter (heh that's a tin of worms as we've seen already with plans for next season) but I can't see it meaning 10k 'cheaper seats' if the stands to be redeveloped are the ones being widely mentioned. Am I really wide of the mark there if we assume that certain places in the stadium will come at a premium over others?

The 'extra' seats will clearly be at the back or in the corners. By definition they will be the cheaper seats.

[SP]

The 'extra' seats will clearly be at the back or in the corners. By definition they will be the cheaper seats.

But the presence of extra cheaper seats does give the club leeway to increase the price of the existing seats as they become rebranded premium seats. The initial steps to facilitate that have already been taken with the new price bands. Revenue on existing seats will increase as well as the revenue from the new seats. As long as the club can claim that the number of bottom price tickets is unchanged, so they have a PR fig leaf, they will squeeze as much revenue from the rest as they can.