Author Topic: Collateral Murder in Iraq  (Read 8031 times)

Offline conman

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #280 on: July 16, 2010, 03:48:06 PM »
Great speech from a US soldier:


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/K-CpCUOygqU&amp;amp" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/K-CpCUOygqU&amp;amp</a>
cannot disagree with any of that.

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #281 on: July 16, 2010, 04:04:15 PM »
Great speech from a US soldier:


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/K-CpCUOygqU&amp;amp" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/K-CpCUOygqU&amp;amp</a>

"The vast majority of people living in the US have nothing to gain from this occupation".

Ain't that the truth.

Offline Rigga

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #282 on: July 16, 2010, 04:51:38 PM »
Great speech from a US soldier:


<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/K-CpCUOygqU&amp;amp" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/K-CpCUOygqU&amp;amp</a>

Couldn't agree more.

Offline Refo

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #283 on: July 16, 2010, 06:07:01 PM »
Simplistic.
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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #284 on: July 16, 2010, 06:26:10 PM »
Simplistic.

Really? What's simplistic about this?

"The vast majority of people living in the US have nothing to gain from this occupation".

Offline johnybarnes

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #285 on: July 16, 2010, 06:53:35 PM »
What's this guys story then? Did he quit the military (can you walk out?) Brilliant video, very truthful and spoken from the heart, from what he's seen and knows to be true.
eh

Offline Refo

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #286 on: July 16, 2010, 07:16:05 PM »
Really? What's simplistic about this?


Look I disagree with the Iraq war as much as the next man, but the ideas that America went in to Iraq solely to control a market, pretty tenuous imo. The way I see it there were 3 reasons why we went, and only one of them was the one he mentions, the business interest idea. The other 2 are as follows: neo-cons and their idea of bringing democracy to a terrible dictatorship, and Bush's desire to get rid of a thorn in his and his daddy's side (I thought they had WMDs at the time too, and my guess is so did the government, though in hindsight they were wrong).

He is racked by guilt that I don't think is justified. Is he the real terrorist, or is it those Al Qaeda bastards who kept bombing their own people to weaken America's position with the goal of establishing a theocracy there? Is it those sectarian militias who went about killing innocents because they were Shia or Sunni?

He says we are subjugating the Iraqis. Are we really? I mean we established a democracy there eventually. Its not perfect, but its not subjugation.

The sentence you highlighted I agree with BTW, and I agree with many other things he said, like that our real enemies (well some of them) are at home, and we should focus on them. Those points can be made without distorting history to make our role in the war seem worse than it actually was, and I think doing so is counter-productive.
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Offline Pheeny

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #287 on: July 17, 2010, 09:15:05 AM »
excellent post Refo.
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Offline Refo

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #288 on: July 17, 2010, 10:22:17 AM »
Cheers Pheeny.
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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #289 on: July 17, 2010, 11:40:37 AM »
Those points can be made without distorting history to make our role in the war seem worse than it actually was, and I think doing so is counter-productive.

By calling it a war, you're distorting history too. It was an illegal invasion and occupation.

Offline yorkykopite

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #290 on: July 17, 2010, 11:45:07 AM »
Really? What's simplistic about this?


America invaded the happy country of Iraq because its ruling class wanted to expand its wealth. It was only able to do this because it brainwashed its armed forces into becoming deeply racist. The racist American soldiers in Iraq are killing civilians with impunity and wreaking untold destruction on the country. They are worse than Saddam, and they are the "real terrorists" (as opposed to the "unreal" ones of Al-Qaida and Mahdi army, presumably). No one else is doing any killing. Only the Americans. All wars fought by Americans - against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, as against the Ba'ath regime in Iraq - are the result of this racism and all are about the pursuit of private profit and raw materials for the ruling class. The Americans should leave as soon as possible so that Iraq can go back to being a happy land.

Was there any more to it than that? 

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #291 on: July 17, 2010, 11:53:36 AM »
America invaded the happy country of Iraq because its ruling class wanted to expand its wealth. It was only able to do this because it brainwashed its armed forces into becoming deeply racist. The racist American soldiers in Iraq are killing civilians with impunity and wreaking untold destruction on the country. They are worse than Saddam, and they are the "real terrorists" (as opposed to the "unreal" ones of Al-Qaida and Mahdi army, presumably). No one else is doing any killing. Only the Americans. All wars fought by Americans - against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan, as against the Ba'ath regime in Iraq - are the result of this racism and all are about the pursuit of private profit and raw materials for the ruling class. The Americans should leave as soon as possible so that Iraq can go back to being a happy land.

Was there any more to it than that? 

Er, yes. I agree some of it was a little over the top but the only bit I quoted was this...
"The vast majority of people living in the US have nothing to gain from this occupation".
...and it's undeniable.

The occupation of Iraq has gone on so long, it's almost been legitimised. It was never legitimate and it had fuck all to do with the interests of the American people.

Offline yorkykopite

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #292 on: July 17, 2010, 12:08:16 PM »
Er, yes. I agree some of it was a little over the top but the only bit I quoted was this......and it's undeniable.

The occupation of Iraq has gone on so long, it's almost been legitimised. It was never legitimate and it had fuck all to do with the interests of the American people.


Well in a sense many of the neo-con architects of the invasion would agree with him and you. The American people were not going to get wealthier or even safer (in the short term) by removing the Ba-athists from power. There was nothing in it for Wyoming or Mississippi. The idea was that the Iraqi people would benefit and that it would be a good thing for Iraq - and the region - if the country became a prosperous democracy rather than the auto-genocidal fascist regime it had been under Hussein and his tribe.

Now that may have been a hopelessly naive project. But it was never going to be a project that put pennies into the bank accounts of ordinary Americans (just as the belated NATO removal of the brute Milosevic never made me any wealthier). Would it have been a more justifiable war - oh, go on, 'occupation' - if ordinary Americans had made some money out of it?

It's worth remembering in all this that there were millions of Americans who didn't want to go to war in 1941. Who believed they had "nothing to gain" from the "occupation" of Germany. You can see their point of view. Nazi Germany was so far away and it had nothing to do with them.

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #293 on: July 17, 2010, 12:59:08 PM »
Now that may have been a hopelessly naive project.

This just leaps out, really. "Naive". That's like saying Germany invading Austria and Poland for more living space was "misguided" (Hell, you started the WWII comparisons). Next thing you'll be telling us Dick Cheney is an altruist at heart.

But it was never going to be a project that put pennies into the bank accounts of ordinary Americans (just as the belated NATO removal of the brute Milosevic never made me any wealthier). Would it have been a more justifiable war - oh, go on, 'occupation' - if ordinary Americans had made some money out of it?

Yorky, you must be hungover because that's the biggest straw man I've seen in a while. The American people were never told they would make money out of it, although I'm quite sure that the President, Vice President and Secretary of State of the time had lovely oil soaked dollar signs in their eyes, given their ties to the industry. Americans were told it was about protecting their freedom. To that extent, the video above is right on the money. Americans were lied to by their rulers, so that they would go invade Iraq, and let their children go too. A nation's "interests" don't always have to be monetary. Having said that, the Iraq invasion did actually take money out of the pockets of ordinary Americans, money that could have been better spent at home.

And "oh go on, occupation"? Tell me what the causus belli was for that, oh go on, "war". It's clear that the Iraq invasion has been a colossal failure and that it has done the opposite of what was claimed as the intent. Instead of bringing stability to the region, it has energised the resistance to western interference. That might be excusable if the original intentions were honourable but they weren't. By consistently and falsely linking 9/11 to Iraq, the American people were duped into thinking that invading Iraq would make them safer. That was utter bullshit from day one.

It's worth remembering in all this that there were millions of Americans who didn't want to go to war in 1941. Who believed they had "nothing to gain" from the "occupation" of Germany. You can see their point of view. Nazi Germany was so far away and it had nothing to do with them.


That's a bizarre comparison. There is a massive difference between joining what was already a World War involving most of the major powers of the day after suffering a fullscale military attack by one of those powers, and invading a small oil rich country in the middle of a region which already had good cause to mistrust the invaders, on the trumped up excuse of a false link with a terrorist atrocity. I'm concerned for you, Yorky. Perhaps some Solpadeine and a nap, you'll feel much better.




Offline Kahuna{=}Berger

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #294 on: July 17, 2010, 04:21:21 PM »
(I thought they had WMDs at the time too, and my guess is so did the government, though in hindsight they were wrong).


Hindsight? A blind man could've seen at the time, that documents were being "sexed up". Hans Blix must've been mute maybe, but sitting here in Europe, I could hear him and his independent weapons inspectors, loud and clear (when I listened loud enough). I don't know what your preferences are when it comes to getting your opinions from the media, but you, (as a nation) were sold down the river by your government. How's that war on terror going in Afghanistan by the way? Found the big tall bearded lad yet?

EDIT: Looking back at it now, and seeing Colin Powels face on the telly, it didn't take a profiler to see the disingenuousness on his face.

Offline conman

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #295 on: July 17, 2010, 05:08:15 PM »
I mean we established a democracy there eventually. Its not perfect, but its not subjugation.

And this is a huge problem too, who gave anyone the right to go and create a country thats not ones own land, and then for others to occupy it, and/or create/maintain/control a democracy there again and again and again.
The ongoing foreign interference in the middle east on goes back centuries, and why do we (we as in west) do it? if we looked back 200 years or so, and listed the reasons for invasion and occupation, do the governments and militaries that be have the same reasons all the time, or is there a new list of reasons why we are pissed off enough to go to war each time?

Now, im no historian by any stretch of the imagination, So anyone that knows better should tell me with a view on history and current affairs, why the west continues to interfere with the middle east.


Offline conman

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #296 on: July 17, 2010, 05:08:59 PM »
Hindsight? A blind man could've seen at the time, that documents were being "sexed up". Hans Blix must've been mute maybe, but sitting here in Europe, I could hear him and his independent weapons inspectors, loud and clear (when I listened loud enough). I don't know what your preferences are when it comes to getting your opinions from the media, but you, (as a nation) were sold down the river by your government. How's that war on terror going in Afghanistan by the way? Found the big tall bearded lad yet?

EDIT: Looking back at it now, and seeing Colin Powels face on the telly, it didn't take a profiler to see the disingenuousness on his face.
I can relate to this.

Offline Kahuna{=}Berger

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #297 on: July 17, 2010, 05:15:16 PM »


Now, im no historian by any stretch of the imagination, So anyone that knows better should tell me with a view on history and current affairs, why the west continues to interfere with the middle east.



I've an answer or three for that, but in other peoples' minds, those answers may come across as too simplistic or concise. Most of the time however, the most simple answers are the correct ones.

Offline El Campeador

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #298 on: July 17, 2010, 05:24:14 PM »
I'm concerned for you, Yorky. Perhaps some Solpadeine and a nap, you'll feel much better.

It's hot in Baghdad today, almost 45 degrees C. Perhaps you're right - he should stay inside?

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #299 on: July 17, 2010, 05:38:20 PM »
Now, im no historian by any stretch of the imagination, So anyone that knows better should tell me with a view on history and current affairs, why the west continues to interfere with the middle east.

Probably four major historic reasons.

1 Christendom & Jerusalem for the Crusades.
2 Communications for the Colonial Empire once the Canal was built.
3 Oil
4 Because we can.

There was also a plethora of minor reasons at any particular time resulting from the withering of the resistance of Ottoman empire, from the crazy obsession with all things Ancient Egypt by France and Britain in the 19th Centuries, and also trade (like the current US model) ie a pretty much one way thing of the Industrial revolution fueled manufacturing boom in for example cotton items needing new captive markets to continue expansion. Then add to the mix occasional good old fashioned land grabs for deluded Empire grand ideas about spheres of influence as part of the historic 'big game', like for example the French in North Africa and Syria, Germany in Turkey and so on.

Also don't discount the widespread public support for the Victorian evangelising attitude of bringing 'civilised' behaviour to 'barbaric' (hence barbary coast) or hypocritically 'piratical' non-Christian countries, assisted by us having Nordenfeldt and Maxims and rifled guns, the products of industrialisation and mass production, and them not. You could substitute 'Civilised' for 'Democratic' and smart bombs and Apaches as the technology in the above and it seems it continues to this day.

So take your pick to support your particular ideology, they are all valid from certain perspectives.
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Offline El Campeador

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #300 on: July 17, 2010, 05:39:25 PM »
Look I disagree with the Iraq war as much as the next man, but the ideas that America went in to Iraq solely to control a market, pretty tenuous imo. The way I see it there were 3 reasons why we went, and only one of them was the one he mentions, the business interest idea. The other 2 are as follows: neo-cons and their idea of bringing democracy to a terrible dictatorship, and Bush's desire to get rid of a thorn in his and his daddy's side (I thought they had WMDs at the time too, and my guess is so did the government, though in hindsight they were wrong).

A pizza has more than one slice.

First and foremost, it was about 9/11, and the snuffing out of threats. Some hawks in the US Administration wanted to send a clear message to would-be antagonists that the US would not hesitate to use force *without provocation*, better known as pre-preemptive action. George W Bush himself was perhaps the biggest proponent  of this line of thought.

Secondly, it was about WMD. Quite a few folks were scared of the possibility of the next 9/11 having chemical or biological weapons on board, and others were talking about the "mushroom cloud" in the form of a suitcase bomb. Whether or not Saddam had them was a moot point - these folks had already convinced themselves that he did, and neither hell nor high water could convince them that the UN inspection teams could come back with a trustworthy analysis that pointed negative. Condoleeza Rice was perhaps the biggest proponent of this line of thought.

Thirdly, there were those who saw a link between Iraq, 9/11, and Al Qaeda. However fanciful (or even untruthful) this may have been, certain folks harped on about meetings between Iraq's intelligence services and Al Qaeda operatives. Dick Cheney, who was perhaps the most famous proponent of this line of thought, borderline blamed Iraq for 9/11.

Fourthly, there were those who wanted to test a new military in action, by ripping up old plans and implementing "transformation", which really could be broken down into fast, mobile Special Forces as opposed to large number of boots on the ground. Iraq was to be a staging ground for Rumsfeld's theories, who was quite annoyed personally at the role that the CIA played in the Afghan theatre. This was a new type of war, they said, and it needed a new kind of military. It also needed a target.

Fifth, there were those who saw Iraq as a low hanging fruit, and who, through their contacts with Iraqi expatriate rebels (read: Chalabi), were convinced that they would be showered with rice as the first troops entered the country. Buoyed by such rosy expectations, they pushed for a war they thought would be over in 3-6 months, and would prove that everyone accepted the American version of Freedom from Above, transforming the Middle East, and causing a domino effect of regime change from within. Richard Perle was perhaps the biggest propoent of this line of thinking.

Sixth, there were influential neoconservative hawks, such as Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith and Richard Perle, who put the importance of America's engagement in war below their political ideologies, and one could make a case for them thinking about Israel's safety more than America's own. Funny enough, that traitor from Connecticut, Joseph Lieberman, also ended up on Israel's side in a war between Iraq and the US. We should not underestimate their ability to push America into a war that Congress had already "authorized" under a different guise.

Offline Refo

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #301 on: July 17, 2010, 06:59:44 PM »
By calling it a war, you're distorting history too. It was an illegal invasion and occupation.

An invasion is something you do in a war, as is an occupation. Is that really the only argument you can make?
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Offline Refo

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #302 on: July 17, 2010, 07:19:45 PM »
Hindsight? A blind man could've seen at the time, that documents were being "sexed up". Hans Blix must've been mute maybe, but sitting here in Europe, I could hear him and his independent weapons inspectors, loud and clear (when I listened loud enough). I don't know what your preferences are when it comes to getting your opinions from the media, but you, (as a nation) were sold down the river by your government. How's that war on terror going in Afghanistan by the way? Found the big tall bearded lad yet?

EDIT: Looking back at it now, and seeing Colin Powels face on the telly, it didn't take a profiler to see the disingenuousness on his face.

I might have been duped. I was very young. It was just like, we know he had weapons at some point, we know he's a real c*nt, you'd think he'd have had the time to build many more. It seemed logical that he had WMDs, but not that he was a real danger to us, which takes that argument away. El C has a real detailed set of reasons why we went in posted above. Read that, its better than any summary I can do.

And this is a huge problem too, who gave anyone the right to go and create a country thats not ones own land, and then for others to occupy it, and/or create/maintain/control a democracy there again and again and again.
The ongoing foreign interference in the middle east on goes back centuries, and why do we (we as in west) do it? if we looked back 200 years or so, and listed the reasons for invasion and occupation, do the governments and militaries that be have the same reasons all the time, or is there a new list of reasons why we are pissed off enough to go to war each time?

See this kind of argument I don't get. In international politics, who gives anyone the right to do anything? But certainly, usurping a really bad dictatorship and replacing it with a democracy is better than some of the stuff we did during the cold war, in replacing democratically elected governments with military dictatorships. I'm not trying to make a justification for the war, which was strategically stupid. I'm just trying to say that while the deliverer of the speech has the right to feel aggrieved for being sent to a pointless war, he shouldn't feel guilty about putting the Iraqi people under subjugation and stuff like that, because that's not really what has happened.
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Offline yorkykopite

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #303 on: July 18, 2010, 11:12:20 AM »
This just leaps out, really. "Naive". That's like saying Germany invading Austria and Poland for more living space was "misguided" (Hell, you started the WWII comparisons). Next thing you'll be telling us Dick Cheney is an altruist at heart.

It's nothing like that of course. The policy of 'lebensraum' has, or had, nothing at all to commend it. It was an exterminationist doctrine. The project of bringing democracy to Iraq is different. It is not essentially evil in itself - unless you believe that democracy is a dreadful system of government - but in the circumstances of 2003 it was naive. "Hopelessly naive" I think I said. There's nothing at all controversial in that.

What is controversial I suppose is the idea that the American administration decided to invade Iraq for that reason, or partly for that reason. I think they did. There were multiple causes but an important one was the belief that ordinary Iraqis had such an appetite for democracy after living for years under a brutal tyranny that an invasion by the Coalition would quickly turn into a liberation struggle. Paul Wolfowitz sincerely believed this I think. He was the most ardent believer but he wasn't the only one. 

This is what was 'hopelessly naive'. 'Criminally naive' if you prefer. It was as if Wolfowitz had read Graham Greene's 'The Quiet American' and missed the irony. The idea that democracy could be established at the point of a sword was delusional and probably betrayed the old simplistic and mechanistic assumptions about social change that many American neocons had from their previous lives as marxists. Frances Fitzgerald once wrote an amazing book about the fuck-up in Vietnam called 'Fire in the Lake'. It was a work of anthropology and it showed why all the American military and political plans for south-east Asia were bound to fail. They were written by men who knew nothing about the complex cultures they were dealing with. It had commonly been supposed that no American administration would ever again engage in an overseas war while being so anthropologically innocent. But then Wolfowitz and the neo-cons came along.

'Altruism' you ask? Yes, partly. Which just goes to show that altruism when married with ignorance (and a sense of divine mission) can be a very dangerous thing. 

Yorky, you must be hungover because that's the biggest straw man I've seen in a while.....

Well you rather asked for it by wondering what was 'simplistic' about the brazenly simplistic video. Anyway my purpose was to help you understand that the phrase about fighting in the "interests of the American people" (or British people or Irish people etc) is probably not as imperious as you think. Notwithstanding what I said about the delusions of the neo-cons there is still something admirable in principle about your country fighting a war to overturn slavery, even though it wouldn't benefit Yorky or Corky.

I wish, for example, the United Nations had intervened to stop the genocide in Rwanda, even though it wasn't in my "interests". I was pleased that NATO did so in Kosovo even though it wasn't in my "interests". It was a good thing that India intervened in East Pakistan, Tanzania in Uganda, christ even Vietnam in Cambodia, even though no Indian, Tanzanian or Vietnamese "interest" was served. All those wars were illegal. All eliminated brutal genocidal governments. The American soldier in the video, presumably, would not have supported any of them.

It's time for sensible people like you Corky to get over the easy Michael Moore mantras and to think about some of the difficult issues thrown up by Iraq (leave the dishonest sloganeering to the dullards). We, including the UN, are bound to face similar calls in future to intervene in countries where innocent people are being massacred by their governments. It would be a pity if the difficult debate about what to do was terminated by someone shouting "Cheney!"   

Offline ThepepeReina

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #304 on: July 19, 2010, 12:00:42 AM »
watched the video and thought it was fuckngn disgusting. read through all 8 pages of post and opinions, and while big davalad and ollick made some very good points, i stil think it was fucking awful and inexcuseable, especially pinging the van.
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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #305 on: July 19, 2010, 12:09:21 AM »
It's time for sensible people like you Corky to get over the easy Michael Moore mantras and to think about some of the difficult issues thrown up by Iraq (leave the dishonest sloganeering to the dullards). We, including the UN, are bound to face similar calls in future to intervene in countries where innocent people are being massacred by their governments. It would be a pity if the difficult debate about what to do was terminated by someone shouting "Cheney!"   

Isn't it up to states to solve their own problems? In the history of every country in the world, bar none, with no exceptions, there exists a chapter of poor governance, of leaders squeezing their own people for their own advantage. In many of these countries, internal revolts have not only deposed those leaders, but also made the concept of freedom dear to themselves for generations.

A UN-sanctioned invasion wasn't needed to overthrow Ceausescu. Slavery wasn't abolished through invasion of the United States. An altruistic Deck Cheney didn't overthrow the brutal Shah, even though it could be argued a Cheney put him there in the first place.

If, as you suggest, we have a moral obligation to "save" these people from their own leaders, by sending our sons to die for them, paying from our own wallets, shouldn't we also then pay for their cancer treatment, for their unemployment benefits, for their education? Where do you draw the line?

Offline Refo

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #306 on: July 19, 2010, 12:34:38 AM »
Isn't it up to states to solve their own problems? In the history of every country in the world, bar none, with no exceptions, there exists a chapter of poor governance, of leaders squeezing their own people for their own advantage. In many of these countries, internal revolts have not only deposed those leaders, but also made the concept of freedom dear to themselves for generations.

A UN-sanctioned invasion wasn't needed to overthrow Ceausescu. Slavery wasn't abolished through invasion of the United States. An altruistic Deck Cheney didn't overthrow the brutal Shah, even though it could be argued a Cheney put him there in the first place.

If, as you suggest, we have a moral obligation to "save" these people from their own leaders, by sending our sons to die for them, paying from our own wallets, shouldn't we also then pay for their cancer treatment, for their unemployment benefits, for their education? Where do you draw the line?

Now there is the right question.
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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #307 on: July 19, 2010, 12:30:06 PM »
Isn't it up to states to solve their own problems? In the history of every country in the world, bar none, with no exceptions, there exists a chapter of poor governance, of leaders squeezing their own people for their own advantage. In many of these countries, internal revolts have not only deposed those leaders, but also made the concept of freedom dear to themselves for generations.

A UN-sanctioned invasion wasn't needed to overthrow Ceausescu. Slavery wasn't abolished through invasion of the United States. An altruistic Deck Cheney didn't overthrow the brutal Shah, even though it could be argued a Cheney put him there in the first place.

If, as you suggest, we have a moral obligation to "save" these people from their own leaders, by sending our sons to die for them, paying from our own wallets, shouldn't we also then pay for their cancer treatment, for their unemployment benefits, for their education? Where do you draw the line?

I said there was a "difficult debate about what to do" which is different from a "moral obligation". The moral obligation would presumably stop the debate in its tracks and compel us to act.

But I'm not convinced by most of your objections to acting either. (There are better ones). To take the last one first I think it would be relatively easy to draw the line. There is no overwhelming moral imperative for one nation to rescue another nation's people from unsatisfactory unemployment benefits (although, interestingly many Germans feel they are doing precisely this with the Greeks right now). Likewise I've not come across the argument that wealthy Americans should educate poor Bangladeshis or ignorant Bolivians, still less pay their health bills.  There has however been a debate since 1945 about whether nations should be passive in the face of genocide. The UN charter, which almost all countries have signed, suggests that the right of intervention (even the obligation to intervene) in such cases is a strong one. The United Nations in practice is a bit of a joke, but the principle isn't. It has a validity which most people would find hard to deny, even where its application is strewn with difficulties.

You object that it didn't take outside intervention to topple Ceacescu or end American slavery. That's true. But most mass murderers die in their beds and slave regimes can last an eternity. Clearly one would prefer an act of self-liberation to outside intervention every time. Apart from anything else it makes the peace and eventual reconciliation easier, but some groups cannot help themselves and require armed assistance before they can achieve their liberation. One might even turn your American slavery example 180 degrees to prove the point. I know there is a complex of reasons why the Union went to war in 1861, and that the emancipation of the slaves only became a war aim two years into the conflict. Nonetheless it turned out to be one of the great examples of outside humanitarian intervention - a principle which, if adopted now, would have incredible political repercussions across the world. (And yes it was outside intervention. There were no slave revolts in the 1860s and precious little abolitionism in the southern states. And, as you'll know, Reconstruction - which enforced the new civil rights Amendments to the Constitution - was essentially a 20-year military occupation of the South by the North).

But like I said applying the principle is really difficult. Drawing the line isn't hard (genocide not cancer, ending slavery not maintaining the value of unemployment benefits). Choosing when to act is much harder. If you agree with any of that - or even if you don't - I'd like to hear your ideas.

Offline Kahuna{=}Berger

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #308 on: July 19, 2010, 01:25:33 PM »
I might have been duped. I was very young. It was just like, we know he had weapons at some point, we know he's a real c*nt, you'd think he'd have had the time to build many more. It seemed logical that he had WMDs, but not that he was a real danger to us, which takes that argument away. El C has a real detailed set of reasons why we went in posted above. Read that, its better than any summary I can do.

I have read it, and it's an excellent summary. It has little to do with the point I was making however. The reasons for occupation are not the crux of my arguement.

You say that "It seemed logical that he had WMDs". Is that why your military and the "Coalition of the Willing" went in? Because it seemed logical? Even though your government was being told over and over, on an ongoing basis, by an independent UN body that there was NO weapons of significance? No smoking gun however but still you went in, and that in my eyes makes it illegal. In fact, it's not that the smoking gun wasn't found. You were told it WASN'T there! The people of your country were LIED to by the hawks in charge at the time and that can only make this war morally corrupt. Building links between Saddam Hussein and 9/11?! C'mon! Satellite pictures of major arms dumps which had weapons with inter-continental ballistic capabilities? They weren't found by Hans and the lads though. Strange that!

The biggest day of mass street protest the world has ever seen. Still, Dick and Condaleeza and the rest were having that war no matter what.

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #309 on: July 19, 2010, 02:16:08 PM »
It's time for sensible people like you Corky to get over the easy Michael Moore mantras and to think about some of the difficult issues thrown up by Iraq (leave the dishonest sloganeering to the dullards). We, including the UN, are bound to face similar calls in future to intervene in countries where innocent people are being massacred by their governments. It would be a pity if the difficult debate about what to do was terminated by someone shouting "Cheney!"   

Short answer? No.

I understand the issue you've highlighted but I'm not prepared to even consider it while you still refer to objections about Iraq as Michael Moore mantras. Time hasn't cured the Iraq invasion of its illegality and immorality. There may well have been people such as Wolfowitz who honestly believed that what they were doing was the Right Thing but the actual decision makers never did. Bush, Cheney and Rice all connived in deceiving the American public and the world. Their principal justification for invading was bullshit, they knew it and then they joked about it. If well informed people like you can't see that, then I will be a very disillusioned bunny indeed.


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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #310 on: July 19, 2010, 05:36:33 PM »
Well, screw you anyway, Yorky, you still have me thinking about your little conundrum so I've devised some basic Rules of Engagement.

When invading another country to "help" that country or its people.....

Rule # 1  You're not allowed lie about it.

Rule # 2 The more the invader conceivably could gain (financially, geopolitically and so on), the more justification you need.

Helpful example:

Burden of proof to invade small country with no resources or geopolitical significance: Low
Burden of proof to invade oil rich country surrounded by nutters with historical antipathy to invader: Extremely fucking high.

Rule # 3  It is NEVER about your own freedom, so quit blaring that around the place.

Rule # 4  You have to count the number of people you kill, wound or displace.

Offline Refo

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #311 on: July 19, 2010, 06:39:40 PM »
I have read it, and it's an excellent summary. It has little to do with the point I was making however. The reasons for occupation are not the crux of my arguement.

You say that "It seemed logical that he had WMDs". Is that why your military and the "Coalition of the Willing" went in? Because it seemed logical? Even though your government was being told over and over, on an ongoing basis, by an independent UN body that there was NO weapons of significance? No smoking gun however but still you went in, and that in my eyes makes it illegal. In fact, it's not that the smoking gun wasn't found. You were told it WASN'T there! The people of your country were LIED to by the hawks in charge at the time and that can only make this war morally corrupt. Building links between Saddam Hussein and 9/11?! C'mon! Satellite pictures of major arms dumps which had weapons with inter-continental ballistic capabilities? They weren't found by Hans and the lads though. Strange that!

The biggest day of mass street protest the world has ever seen. Still, Dick and Condaleeza and the rest were having that war no matter what.
First off, notice that I don't use the 'logical' argument for anything, I undercut it in my own post.   

I'm not sure I understand what your argument is. We're not talking about the correctness/incorrectness of the decision to invade Iraq, we all think it was an incorrect. We all are pretty pissed off at the whole situation with regards to being lied to.

What we are talking about is that video, and how me and yorky thought that it posed a very simplistic argument against the war, one that I personally see as demagogic and irritating. On a more abstract level we are talking about the morality of the war, which I personally see as ambiguous, but you see it (was it you or corky, ahh nevermind) as the equivalent of Hitler invading Poland for more living space.

So that is why I pointed to El C's wonderful "a pizza has more than one slice", to point out how different people with different goals, some quite noble in fact, argued for the invasion before the war. Again, it doesn't mean I think it was a good idea to go in, it just means I think some of the points put across in the video are over the top.
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Offline Kahuna{=}Berger

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #312 on: July 19, 2010, 07:09:40 PM »
Fair enough. That wasn't me with the Hitler/'lebensraum' stuff by the way. I do see that a lot of big business (and American politics at the time), had/has much to profit from it though.

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #313 on: July 19, 2010, 07:22:15 PM »
Fair enough. That wasn't me with the Hitler/'lebensraum' stuff by the way. I do see that a lot of big business (and American politics at the time), had/has much to profit from it though.

Yes, that is true.
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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #314 on: July 19, 2010, 08:37:25 PM »
but you see it (was it you or corky, ahh nevermind) as the equivalent of Hitler invading Poland for more living space.

I did and yet I didn't. I described it as misguided as a deliberately absurd counterpoint to Yorky's characterisation of the Iraq invasion as naive.

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #315 on: July 19, 2010, 09:27:09 PM »
I did and yet I didn't. I described it as misguided as a deliberately absurd counterpoint to Yorky's characterisation of the Iraq invasion as naive.

And by extension compared the two, unless 'naive' and 'misguided' are supposed to carry incredibly different connotations. 

as for your rules, they are fair I think, but it still doesn't excuse the speaker in the video, talking about how America has 'subjugated' the Iraqi people etc, from being labeled simplistic.
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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #316 on: July 19, 2010, 10:00:54 PM »
And by extension compared the two, unless 'naive' and 'misguided' are supposed to carry incredibly different connotations. 

I compared two pairs, each having their own relationship. Go back and read it again.

as for your rules, they are fair I think, but it still doesn't excuse the speaker in the video, talking about how America has 'subjugated' the Iraqi people etc, from being labeled simplistic.

Again, there's nothing simplistic about that. Literalistic, maybe, because subjugated is what they were.

I honestly think many of you have become inured to Iraq. Bit by bit, you all forgot the lies or more likely, you grew tired of hearing the same hectoring liberal wails against the lies. Do you not remember how this started?

The theme that the Bush admin went with was flat out misrepresentation. They made it like Iraq was a natural consequence of 9/11 when it had fuck all to with it. They lied in order to invade another country. You can luxuriate in your pizza slices and layered cultural influences and geopolitics and sneer at how simplistic my views are all you want but that's the straight truth. What their real motives were is irrelevant for these purposes. Once they told the Big Lie, anything that came after was rotten to the core.

I know wars are complicated, invasions often more so but if you have to lie to your own people in order to get them to die in another country, you're past redemption. I think it was the most appalling betrayal of a nation by its supposedly accountable government, and the fact that it was America, the Land of the Free, makes it even more disgusting.

As you can see, I'm not quite over it.

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #317 on: July 19, 2010, 10:51:15 PM »
I compared two pairs, each having their own relationship. Go back and read it again.

I did, hence my statement. but whatever that is not what I'm interested in discussing.

Quote
Again, there's nothing simplistic about that. Literalistic, maybe, because subjugated is what they were.

I honestly think many of you have become inured to Iraq. Bit by bit, you all forgot the lies or more likely, you grew tired of hearing the same hectoring liberal wails against the lies. Do you not remember how this started?

The theme that the Bush admin went with was flat out misrepresentation. They made it like Iraq was a natural consequence of 9/11 when it had fuck all to with it. They lied in order to invade another country. You can luxuriate in your pizza slices and layered cultural influences and geopolitics and sneer at how simplistic my views are all you want but that's the straight truth. What their real motives were is irrelevant for these purposes. Once they told the Big Lie, anything that came after was rotten to the core.

I know wars are complicated, invasions often more so but if you have to lie to your own people in order to get them to die in another country, you're past redemption. I think it was the most appalling betrayal of a nation by its supposedly accountable government, and the fact that it was America, the Land of the Free, makes it even more disgusting.

As you can see, I'm not quite over it.

I disagree that doing what America did in Iraq is tantamount to literally subjugating the Iraqi people, and i don't understand why that is controversial. They were under a fascist dictatorship, we went in, and among our many other motives, one was to try to free them that fascist dictatorship. Now on balance what ended up happening in Iraq did not justify that motive, though in its defense, I think that a lot worst violence in Iraq happened as a direct result of the insurgency, (and an indirect result of the invasion), which I think we all agree was/is for the most part carried out by a bunch of Islamist fuckwits with no respect for human life.

The way I see it, now that the dust has settled we can take a more philosophical view of the whole thing. If I had the power to go back in time and stop the war from happening, obviously I would, but I'm not going accept condemnation of the occupation as "terrorism" or "subjugation", just because I personally feel betrayed and lied to by my leaders.

Speaking of which: "I am the real terrorist" says the soldier. Really? I mean how many school buses did he blow up trying to cause chaos? There is a tendency by liberals to always, always root for the underdog. America, being the big guy, therefore naturally gets cast in a bad light at almost every turn regardless of what it does. To back up these claims, they come up with some pretty tenuous arguments that aren't becoming of their generally noble sentiments (you see it with regards to Israel too incidentally), which imo weaken their position.

And just because some parts of the apple are rotten, doesn't mean its entirely rotten. That is what I mean by simplistic, a lack of separation of the components of complex scenarios. It could mean I don't wish to eat it myself, but it doesn't mean its all poison. And this is a case where I can say, America, well its leaders, have been pretty rotten, but they are a good deal better than Al Qaeda in Iraq, so I'll refrain from issuing sweeping and complete condemnations of everything they have done that ignore the horrors committed by others.
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Offline finchie

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #318 on: July 20, 2010, 10:31:55 AM »
I honestly think many of you have become inured to Iraq. Bit by bit, you all forgot the lies or more likely, you grew tired of hearing the same hectoring liberal wails against the lies. Do you not remember how this started?

The theme that the Bush admin went with was flat out misrepresentation. They made it like Iraq was a natural consequence of 9/11 when it had fuck all to with it. They lied in order to invade another country. You can luxuriate in your pizza slices and layered cultural influences and geopolitics and sneer at how simplistic my views are all you want but that's the straight truth. What their real motives were is irrelevant for these purposes. Once they told the Big Lie, anything that came after was rotten to the core.
Spot on!

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Re: Collateral Murder in Iraq
« Reply #319 on: July 20, 2010, 11:44:45 AM »
Spot on!

What's the AE911Truth.org thing all about mate?