Topic: Left Wing Liverpool & The Politics Of Our Club

[KERRYKOP]

It dawned on me Yesterday while looking at the amazing new Pepe flag which has the slogan "No pasarán" across it, that the link between the club's supporters and Socialist ideology is interwoven.

For people who don't know, No pasarán translates from Spanish as "they shall not pass". The slogan is used through out the world by Left wing organisations and was used by Republicans in the Spanish Civil war. Socialism imagery also can be found in the new Irish Kop banner dedicated to our great Managers and the crest of AFC Liverpool.

So what I'm asking is, was the link between Liverpool supporters and the left always so strong our did right wing elements creep in at some stage? Is the link these days just stylised? Is Liverpool still a socialist city?

[hic]

I'm a communist.

[Robbie Styles]

I'm sure Gandalf said that also!! 

[BazC]

The thing is, every team, be it in sports or in the work place, will always have a socialist mentality. Even if it's operating within an environment where it needs to compete for success (be it in sports or in the world of business). It's quite interesting when you think about it actually.

Working together well, helping and supporting team mates, your leader, your supporters, giving something back whenever you can but also taking advice and help whenever you can are all 'socialist' but the ideals operate within a defined boundry- in this case the club and the city.

It's definitely not socialist throughout though- I mean we're all competing against other teams- far from wanting to help them, we want them to fail so we can win. I don't know if that is 'socialism'.

But it's interesting how socialist ideals make effective teams. Teams which wreak havoc in competitive arenas.

[Promised to never post on RAWK again]

[west_london_red]

Sadly the right wing has creeped into just about everything these days.

[La Ligapool]

As an old lefty, it's one of the reasons I always felt an extra love for this club.
Shankly said:
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That's how I see football, that's how I see life."

[exiledintheUSA]

Bring back Maggie!





NOT

[Peyres]

the world was right wing from the start, it hasnt take over anything, its just natural.

[Beninger]

As an old lefty, it's one of the reasons I always felt an extra love for this club.
Shankly said:
"The socialism I believe in is everybody working for the same goal and everybody having a share in the rewards. That's how I see football, that's how I see life."

He also said the socialism he believes in "is not really politics".  I would look to the post above by BazC that would probably best fit his view on things.  I've understood him to have been quite proud of his country too...if that only pertained to football and when they played England, then that would fit into that as well.

[west_london_red]

the world was right wing from the start, it hasnt take over anything, its just natural.

Modern society is not 'natural'. Technology and science has taken us well beyond what is natural.

[Beninger]

Modern society is not 'natural'. Technology and science has taken us well beyond what is natural.

We, as humans, always find out soon enough that our decadence will never take us beyond nature.  She always comes back to bite.

[redbootneck]

I've been Red since consciousness. I'm not a socialist. Don't see why people like to 'interweave' their politics with football allegiance. Bollocks.

[Treasure Everywhere]

To preserve at least a bit of the leftwingness, it might be necessary not to associate with the Rhone Group:

"Agostinelli, who once described Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian Prime Minister, as “a leader who will save the country” and who also once opined that “the left is a cancer that needs to be eradicated” [...]"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article7065086.ece

[boots]

Come the revolution!!

Free the Liverpool 11!

Join the Anfield Popular Front and smash the Yankee Imperialistic hegemony.!!

Equal rites for ugly women!

[gray19lfc]

David Silva, oh...

[Beninger]

Only equal rights among themselves

Equal rights!  And equal lefts?  Kidding!

[La Ligapool]

Modern society is not 'natural'. Technology and science has taken us well beyond what is natural.

Although, if you are not religious then you have to accept that we are 'natural' therefore anything we do is also natural.
To say that our technology is unnatural is like saying a bird's nest or spider's web is unnatural.

Anyway, in football terms the feeling of togetherness that socialism is supposed to capture is evident in our 'You'll Never Walk Alone' and I honestly feel that Liverpool (maybe because of the city's resitance to Thatcher in the 80s or maybe it's longer standing than that) is MORE like this than other clubs.
Then again, maybe I'm biased.

[Bennyo]

I've been Red since consciousness. I'm not a socialist. Don't see why people like to 'interweave' their politics with football allegiance. Bollocks.

Because football means something. It doesn't just end once the grass finishes. It is the collective of people that watch it, that care for it, that pay for it. The people whose emotions are affected by victory or defeat. It binds those people together. Football is fans, it's people, it's you and me. Everything's political. Football especially so. It's what Bill Shankly believed and he should know, he made those people happy. I for one am extremely happy to see politics discussed in relation to football - I think a greater knowledge of the political potential of football will be the thing that releases it from the clutches of shithouses like those two yanks. It isn't right that two people can fuck around with what is a church to hundreds of thousands of people.         

[Bennyo]

To preserve at least a bit of the leftwingness, it might be necessary not to associate with the Rhone Group:

"Agostinelli, who once described Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian Prime Minister, as “a leader who will save the country” and who also once opined that “the left is a cancer that needs to be eradicated” [...]"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article7065086.ece

Italian politics is another realm entirely. The left is a fragmented mess with no real means of securing stability in Italy. Berlusconi for all his ills - and there a fuck of a lot of them - I hate the man, he should be in jail - has been the only PM to complete the term of his office in Italy since the end of the war. Says a lot.

[Beninger]

Now, now...the "people's club" are the bitters.  I thought you all knew?

[Peyres]

To preserve at least a bit of the leftwingness, it might be necessary not to associate with the Rhone Group:

"Agostinelli, who once described Silvio Berlusconi, the Italian Prime Minister, as “a leader who will save the country” and who also once opined that “the left is a cancer that needs to be eradicated” [...]"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article7065086.ece

being owned by any business men/women goes against Socialist principles. Fan ownership is another matter.

[Peyres]

Modern society is not 'natural'. Technology and science has taken us well beyond what is natural.

if the sworn enemy of socialism is private ownership and greed, it was always facing a losing battle. Man has craved power over others since the dawn of time.

[Peyres]

It is more about not having interference from the owners.

not if the collective fanbase is lining the pockets of said owners.

[Beninger]

if the sworn enemy of socialism is private ownership and greed, it was always facing a losing battle. Man has craved power over others since the dawn of time.

In the end, there is always a controlling group/person.  It seems to me, the only way that some people distinguish a murderer of millions from another, is if they did it indiscriminately or not.  You can kill many, but please don't be discriminate about it.

[Bennyo]

if the sworn enemy of socialism is private ownership and greed, it was always facing a losing battle. Man has craved power over others since the dawn of time.

People say that because we've been brought up in a culture where that's the norm. Socialists believe the constructs and institutions of society shape the people who are brought up in them. Capitalism is an incredibly recent phenomena, and human society has run on a different set of principles for nearly its entire history.

[Vulmea]

I've been Red since consciousness. I'm not a socialist. Don't see why people like to 'interweave' their politics with football allegiance. Bollocks.

That would be because football clubs grew up in communities and those communities have political allegiances - Liverpool is still thankfully as close to a socialist city as you are going to get in this country. Football clubs weren't all invented by Sky. If you dont understand that what use are you?

[Beninger]

People say that because we've been brought up in a culture where that's the norm. Socialists believe the constructs and institutions of society shape the people who are brought up in them. Capitalism is an incredibly recent phenomena, and human society has run on a different set of principles for nearly its entire history.

That may be part of the initial problem.  The basis of the argument stands on environment alone having influence.  That's just not practical...and in no way are we able to quantify that either. 

[Treasure Everywhere]

being owned by any business men/women goes against Socialist principles. Fan ownership is another matter.

Agreed. Still, in the face of seemingly insurmountable obstacles to fan ownership (at present), surely you'd prefer some business(wo)men over others?

[Treasure Everywhere]

Italian politics is another realm entirely. The left is a fragmented mess with no real means of securing stability in Italy. Berlusconi for all his ills - and there a fuck of a lot of them - I hate the man, he should be in jail - has been the only PM to complete the term of his office in Italy since the end of the war. Says a lot.

And what is that? (Not that it matters for this thread.)

[redbootneck]

Because football means something. It doesn't just end once the grass finishes. It is the collective of people that watch it, that care for it, that pay for it. The people whose emotions are affected by victory or defeat. It binds those people together. Everything's political. Football especially so. It's what Bill Shankly believed and he should know, he made those people happy. I for one am extremely happy to see politics discussed in relation to football - I think a greater knowledge of the political potential of football will be the thing that releases it from the clutches of shithouses like those two yanks. It isn't right that two people can fuck around with what is a church to hundreds of thousands of people.         

e SOS)
Yes - football does mean something. However, our club means something beyond dogmatic political belief.  The first 2.5 lines of your post I agree with.  Don't agree that being part of a collective where people are bound together, work together, and put emotional energy into something means the thing is 'socialist' - you can say that for any football or sporting team, military organisations etc.  This doesn't mean the followers of other teams/rock groups etc. are socialist.
It is not 'a greater knowledge of the political potential of football' will free us from these wankers. It will be a deep-pocketed investor, who has the best interests of the long term future of LFC at heart. Supporters will always be the heart of the club, some socialist, some communist, some gay, some Tory, some S&M afficianados, some ginger-haired.

[Cracking Left Foot]

Anyone who grew up in the 80s in Liverpool (or indeed any working-class Northern city) will remember how Thatcher fucked our city up. I don't think you can fail to be left-wing, or however you wish to define socialism these days, in those circumstances.

Remember the proposed Supporters ID Card scheme? That just showed how much the old witch held football fans, working class people and Liverpool in particular (it was proposed in reaction to Heysel as a way to 'control' us) in contempt.

[KERRYKOP]

Remember the proposed Supporters ID Card scheme?

No what was it?

[redbootneck]

That would be because football clubs grew up in communities and those communities have political allegiances - Liverpool is still thankfully as close to a socialist city as you are going to get in this country. Football clubs weren't all invented by Sky. If you dont understand that what use are you?

What exactly is your point here? That LFC is a socialist club because a majority of the population of Liverpool vote Labour? Is that not the same for every football club in almost every British city north of Watford? Not sure about the reference to Sky inventing football clubs - how many are there?
LFC was founded by 2 Orangemen, with a larger than normal of Orange Halls and Orangemen living within Liverpool than in any other mainland British city other than Glasgow.  Is this reflected in modern day LFC? No.
The original post refers to an 'interweaving' of socialism with LFC.  My point is that there is no connection between supporting LFC and being a socialist, though some will try to attach their politics to the football team they support - this is their own creation, and not a prerequisite to supporting the team.

[Driver 8]

being owned by any business men/women goes against Socialist principles. Fan ownership is another matter.

One of the main principles of socialism (or the Marxist version of it anyway) is that the workers control the means of production. So I guess a socialistic football club would be run by its workers - players, coaches, people in the ticket office, guys doing the website, the groundskeepers...could be some interesting board meetings - like Steven Gerrard sitting down to debate the future direction of the club with the bloke who puts the bins out!

[koptician]

I'm sure Gandalf said that also!! 

Gandalf said "You shall not pass" 

[Beninger]

Anyone who grew up in the 80s in Liverpool (or indeed any working-class Northern city) will remember how Thatcher fucked our city up. I don't think you can fail to be left-wing, or however you wish to define socialism these days, in those circumstances.

Remember the proposed Supporters ID Card scheme? That just showed how much the old witch held football fans, working class people and Liverpool in particular (it was proposed in reaction to Heysel as a way to 'control' us) in contempt.

Surveillance is a means of control that every government is working towards.  Blaming one politician or another for something like ID cards is ridiculous.  It's something they all try and implement, "for your own good".  How many cctv cameras are in England?  Under whose guidance were the majority of these implemented?  Making someone think that one politician is better than the next is exactly what it takes to keep you thinking your vote really matters.

[jamiehill]

Right wing ideas tend to appeal to the primitive animal instincts. If you look at the animal kingdom, you see it every day - grab what you can and compete for survival.
Left wing socialist ideas are about sharing in some kind of utopia. It can never work in the animal kingdom which we still remain as a species.

Liverpool FC looks like a feudal system.

[Treasure Everywhere]

Maybe we should define what it is we're discussing -- socialism reflected in LFC by:

a) the political leanings of the (majority of) supporters
or
b) the political leanings of those at the helm
or
c) the structure and workings of the club

[Beninger]

Maybe we should define what it is we're discussing -- socialism reflected in LFC by:

a) the political leanings of the (majority of) supporters
or
b) the political leanings of those at the helm
or
c) the structure and workings of the club

All 3 working on completely different political levels from each other...as well as within each other.