Topic: Lionel Messi

[oojason]

Feel bad for him. Arguably the best player ever to kick a football and he wont win an international title. This will always be held against him in the GOAT debates, especially when Maradona stepped up when he needed to

[Samie]

He will never be the GOAT shagger. Garrincha is the one true king.

[nutmeg94]

People saying he's a bottler because he can't show up when it matter for Argentina. Ffs. The man dragged his nation to three major finals in three years. Last minute of the 2015 Copa America final comes to mind when Messi is left with fewer then three players marking him for the first time all game, he dribbles forty yards or so on the breakaway, delivers a perfect pass to Higuain for the tap in and Higuain fluffs it. Messi has done all he can but when he's surrounded by bottlers and bad luck there's only so much you can do. Hoping he rethinks this decision, having said that

[Xxavi]

I am actually fine with his retirement from international football But I do think he will be convinced to go back for WC2018.

Whilst Messi hasn't shown his Barca best for Argentina, there are more than 1 reasons for it. Piling everything on Messi is not fair, nor is it intelligent. Football is a team game, and managers have a strong influence over the results. Messi has been unfortunate with some of the garbage managers he has had to deal with for Argentina. Remember Maradona's crazy no-midfield formations? Maradona himself wouldn't do anything with that kind of formation against a top team. Seriously, if Argentina were leaking 4 goals, he wouldn't have won any international cups.

Now it is Tata Martino. Not a bad guy, but he is not a great manager. Unfortunately, Messi has had to play too many roles for Argentina. Always dropping too low to get the ball and connect the dots. Would have been great to watch prime Riquelme with prime Messi. Instead, we see that Messi has to be the person who gets the ball, carries, and passes it creatively for the likes of Aguero and Higuain to mess up.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

The guy's at the same table Maradona and Pele sit at. Has nothing left to prove. It's laughable to question his mentality, a thin short-arse from a poor background that has gone on to become the greatest player in the game. You don't do that if there are any chinks up there. He has delivered under pressure plenty of times for his team at the top level, some you miss. 

[The North Bank]

Glad we never swapped the Falklands for him, bottler.

[4pool]

Ruined his standing if he follows through on this.  He needs to keep trying until he is dropped or has retired.  Quitting is not an option.

there's a lot more to it when 7 of the team retire from Argentina.

[trimore]

At this point a lot of the hate for both him and Ronaldo is simple fatigue from the amount of praise, coverage and trophies won both players have had for going on a decade now.

Maradona never scored in a final for Argentina he was man marked by 5 or 6 players and all he could do was pass it off to Valdano and Burruchaga. They scored, Higuain and Aguero did not, Messi played well overall. Bravo and Neur also played amazing. Messi missed one penalty in one shoot-out, it never should have came to that.

Messi is up there with Maradona and I hope people understand the differences. Yes Maradona dragged unfancy, but still with other good players, Napoli to the league and Argentina to the WC. But there are just so many more games now to be played compared to then and international football overall favours defensive structures over individual brilliance. It is just easier to implement in the small amount of time coaches have to prepare for national tournaments. That's just my 2 cents anyways.   

He shouldn't retire either and should look at Klose for reasons not to.

[b_joseph]

Ruined his standing if he follows through on this.  He needs to keep trying until he is dropped or has retired.  Quitting is not an option.

Plenty of players retire from International football before they are pushed. Paul Scholes retired about 9 years before he retired completely....would have walked into England teams till the final day of his career with United.

His standing as the best player ever is fine...it's just that Argentinians might dislike him

[Chakan]

Plenty of players retire from International football before they are pushed. Paul Scholes retired about 9 years before he retired completely....would have walked into England teams till the final day of his career with United.

His standing as an all timer is fine.

Lahm retired at 30, of course that was after winning practically everything.

[b_joseph]

Lahm retired at 30, of course that was after winning practically everything.

Not everything..didn't win the Euro's. But yeah, if you feel that your time is up, then go....that being said, I don't believe for one moment that he won't be going to Russia in 2018.

[Chakan]

Not everything..didn't win the Euro's.

Practically

[shook]

there's a lot more to it when 7 of the team retire from Argentina.

fair point on that.

[Redinho]

Just sounds like an action to get something changed in the FA.

[Brissyred]

Obviously saving himself for Everton, now they've re-awoken.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Just sounds like an action to get something changed in the FA.

Interesting take on that. Quite possible, considering the top class management these guys are used to with their clubs v the peasants running the national side's logistics.

[LiverBirdKop]

It's ridiculous. If over the past few years Higuain had taken two chances in two finals, he'd have a World Cup and a Copa America to his name then his international career would be seen as a roaring success.

Right, because the other teams would never have scored equalizers right?   

[SMASHerano]

Amazing how he keeps putting chances on a plate for the likes of Higuain, Aguero and Palacio only for them to keep missing them all.

If he had someone who could actually finish (like Maradona had Burruchaga), he could've had 2 Copas and a World Cup by now.

[Redcap]

I think there's one way back for Messi.

Sack Martino and offer the job to Diego Simeone.

Best manager in the world paired with the best player in the world. Simeone's had a great run at Atletico, but with two years to go until the next World Cup, and with Messi still relatively close to his peak at that time in 2 years (he'll turn 31 during the next World Cup), the Argentinian FA could make a compelling case to him to win glory for his country. With no Copa commitments until 2019, he might not even need to leave his Atletico job.

It seems as if Argentina is a bit of a basket case though, so I doubt they'd be trying to make the move.

[The North Bank]

At least he got to finals, unlike our golden shower generation.

[HighSix]

Sack Martino and offer the job to Diego Simeone.

Never understood why the managing a club & country is not more of a thing... Should be just like the players. All you need is the correct backroom staff setup to make it work.

[Ciara (with a capital "C")]

Never understood why the managing a club & country is not more of a thing... Should be just like the players. All you need is the correct backroom staff setup to make it work.

Has it ever been done successfully before? I wouldn't have the world/International knowledge to know.

[Gerry Attrick]

Has it ever been done successfully before? I wouldn't have the world/International knowledge to know.

Slutsky (Russia's manager) is the most recent example of where it worked to some extent. He cleaned up Capello's mess and got them to the Euros and I think CSKA Moscow won the Russian League. Very minor example of how it can work at least in the short term.

[ElCapo]

Messi will never touch Diego (at least not in international football)

[HighSix]

I didn't even know about the Russian example.

A few African countries have binned off the manager after qualifying for a bigger name at the tournament which I guess is halfway but seems harsh.

[ElCapo]

I am actually fine with his retirement from international football But I do think he will be convinced to go back for WC2018.

Whilst Messi hasn't shown his Barca best for Argentina, there are more than 1 reasons for it. Piling everything on Messi is not fair, nor is it intelligent. Football is a team game, and managers have a strong influence over the results. Messi has been unfortunate with some of the garbage managers he has had to deal with for Argentina. Remember Maradona's crazy no-midfield formations? Maradona himself wouldn't do anything with that kind of formation against a top team. Seriously, if Argentina were leaking 4 goals, he wouldn't have won any international cups.

Now it is Tata Martino. Not a bad guy, but he is not a great manager. Unfortunately, Messi has had to play too many roles for Argentina. Always dropping too low to get the ball and connect the dots. Would have been great to watch prime Riquelme with prime Messi. Instead, we see that Messi has to be the person who gets the ball, carries, and passes it creatively for the likes of Aguero and Higuain to mess up.

Do you think Argentina's selections and management were perfect in Maradona's era, or is it possible he just managed to overcome the very same "issues" that every national team has when it loses?

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Do you think Argentina's selections and management were perfect in Maradona's era, or is it possible he just managed to overcome the very same "issues" that every national team has when it loses?

There's also the possibility that the footballing landscape has changed massively and this makes comparing the eras quite difficult.

[SMASHerano]

Messi will never touch Diego (at least not in international football)

 

So Maradona who never even reached a Copa America final (in 4 attempts) or win a Champions League (losing to the almighty Spartak Moscow in one of his attempts) will never be "touched" by Messi who's already won 4 Champions League titles, reached 4 Copa America finals while putting in some stunning performances and 5 Ballon d'Ors...

[Samie]

Diego dragged a bunch of farmers to a world cup win and another final.

[ElCapo]

So Maradona who never even reached a Copa America final (in 4 attempts) or win a Champions League (losing to the almighty Spartak Moscow in one of his attempts) will never be "touched" by Messi who's already won 5 Champions League titles, reached 4 Copa America finals while putting in some stunning performances and 5 Ballon d'Ors...

5 CL titles?   You mean 3?
4 Copa finals?  You mean 3 without winning any?

[SMASHerano]

Diego dragged a bunch of farmers to a world cup win and another final.

yeah Valdano, Burruchaga and Passarella were a bunch of farmers sure, and Bilardo was a sheep herder.

[Samie]

yeah Valdano, Burruchaga and Passarella were a bunch of farmers sure, and Bilardo was a sheep herder.

Sheep shagger if you must know. Welsh ancestry  with that one.

Pasarella is associated with the 78 WC not 86.

[SMASHerano]

5 CL titles?   You mean 3?
4 Copa finals?  You mean 3 without winning any?

No, I mean 4 Champions League title hence the edit. The Copa America finals were 3 though, you're right. It doesn't make it any less of an achievement. Maradona didn't even manage to reach the final in the first place.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

So Maradona who never even reached a Copa America final (in 4 attempts) or win a Champions League (losing to the almighty Spartak Moscow in one of his attempts) will never be "touched" by Messi who's already won 4 Champions League titles, reached 4 Copa America finals while putting in some stunning performances and 5 Ballon d'Ors...

that stuff crossed out is irrelevant if you're talking about international football (5 balon d'ors being won due to his club performances)

Mardona won a world cup and got to another final, Messi hasn't won anything with Argentina (and he has arguably a better team around him) - think it's pretty clear that for Argentina Maradona is in a league of his own

[Phil M]

This discussion is null and void until either Maradona (still time) or Messi do it on a cold wet night at the Britannia.

[SMASHerano]

that stuff crossed out is irrelevant if you're talking about international football (5 balon d'ors being won due to his club performances)

Mardona won a world cup and got to another final, Messi hasn't won anything with Argentina (and he has a much better team around him) - think it's pretty clear that for Argentina Maradona is in a league of his own

Messi got to a final as well, missing out on the cup after Higuain and Palacio missed clear cut chances. Burruchaga didn't miss his chance, so Maradona is in a league of his own. Does that really make sense to you?

Are we going to simply ignore that Maradona had a bad World Cup in 1990, scored 0 goals and missed a penalty against Yugoslavia? Is that going to be brushed aside and we'll claim that he took them to another final as well?

[Xxavi]

Do you think Argentina's selections and management were perfect in Maradona's era, or is it possible he just managed to overcome the very same "issues" that every national team has when it loses?

I honestly don't know. I didn't follow the 1986 World Cup. May be there were issues back then, too. But what we know for sure is that Argentina weren't leaking goals like they were in 2010 back then. Maradona, after all, didn't play in defense, and he'd be helpless if his team conceded 4 goals from Germany.

That said, it hasn't been like Messi was miles away from trophies with Argentina. He played in a number of finals with them.

Regardless, it's a bit pointless to use Messi's fairly good NT career as a stick to beat him. Nobody can compare to him in terms of club football career, and his NT career has been great for the most part.

[Xxavi]

that stuff crossed out is irrelevant if you're talking about international football (5 balon d'ors being won due to his club performances)

Mardona won a world cup and got to another final, Messi hasn't won anything with Argentina (and he has arguably a better team around him) - think it's pretty clear that for Argentina Maradona is in a league of his own

Why do you say that? Do you watch Argentina and think Messi has superb players around him? I am serious, do you really think Aguero and Higuain have been great for Argentina? These are great names on paper, but Argentina hardly ever played as a team.

We saw a bunch of great names forming some sorry teams like Spain and England in this Euros.

[SMASHerano]

Why do you say that? Do you watch Argentina and think Messi has superb players around him? I am serious, do you really think Aguero and Higuain have been great for Argentina? These are great names on paper, but Argentina hardly ever played as a team.

We saw a bunch of great names forming some sorry teams like Spain and England in this Euros.

Anyone who watches Argentina knows that Aguero is always shit with them, Higuain bottles the important chances and Di Maria is always injured for the big games. Yet they say they're a superior team and Messi is the one who is under performing.

[Sir Psycho Sexy]

Messi got to a final as well, missing out on the cup after Higuain and Palacio missed clear cut chances. Burruchaga didn't miss his chance, so Maradona is in a league of his own. Does that really make sense to you?

Are we going to simply ignore that Maradona had a bad World Cup in 1990, scored 0 goals and missed a penalty against Yugoslavia? Is that going to be brushed aside and we'll claim that he took them to another final as well?

You're arguing that Messi is on par with Maradona for Argentina ... how can he be if he doesn't have even a Copa compared to aradona's world cup?

Yes, higuain and Palacio could have finished their chances - but it is what it is. People don't remember the runners up. You also make it sound like the difference was Burruchaga ... Maradona was obviously the reason why they won, the world cup.