Topic: Rafa Benitez: His Managerial Aptitude and The Final Judgement Call

[astrored]

We're in a no-win situation.

I doubt he will go on his own accord.  So he gets the sack and a pay-out but we're penniless.

Who do we replace him with?  Not too many decent managers will be lining up for an interview.  Half decent ones will not work for those yanks as well if they aren't morons.

So we're stuck with him, a mediocre team, and of course more mediocrity to come.  It's partially his fault - being safe will lose him more support.  It's really time for him to be a football fan first and play the likes of Pacheco before he runs out of time (Rafa, not Pacheco) and supporters.

I don't envy his position.  Some think that he has lost the players but what can you do with players like Kuyt, Carragher and Insua.  No quality, no football intelligence i.e. grafters who will not win you matches.  Really, what's the point?

[Redshadow77]

Regi - IS suggesting Rafa' played Gerrard in the middle to pacify people nonsense? When we've spent MONTHS now hearing from Sky Sports, Radio phone-ins, fans in interviews, Tom, Dick, Harry and their cats that Gerrard apparently BELONGS in midfield and WOULD solve ALL our problems at a stroke? I don't think so - I think Rafa' put him there deliberately as if to say ''ok, he's there now and NOW look what's happened - STILL want him there?'' I think he did it to pacify them, be bloody minded AND prove a point being the sort of hard-headed character he is - I didn't speak nonsense at all, just what it's obvious that Rafa' has done;

As to slating them? So, I lost my rag there - it happens;  What REALLY annoys me is that when it goes the OTHER way and people as you say 'feel their criticisms are justified' they often lose THEIR rags - coming out with ALL sorts of crap after all the good years Rafa's given us whilst failing TOTALLY to acknowledge ANY problems bar him (the owners, lack of stadium size, new stadium being but 3).  They act like he's some conference level manager whose been thrown into the Anfield hotseat without a clue - they IGNORE any problems bar him, they parrot rubbish that you hear EVERY day in the media and then they (in the person of you) get annoyed at ME for DARING to have a go back? Tough, some of these so-called 'fans SHOULD be bloody slated as they're only here for a row;

 As to the others - we know it's a hard season and yes Rafa HAS got things wrong sometimes but surely he deserves at least ONE bad season without having to beg for his job for next year? He's done enough to earn that in the previous 5 years I'd think unless our 'most knowledgeable fans in England' are TOTAL hypocrites?  BTW regarding our crap football - I hear NO mention of the Battle of the Somme like Injury list that we've suffered to ALL our players this season as a reason for that when it quite clearly is - Another example of the bleeding heart manager moaners who you're such an apologist for being selectively blind perhaps? 

I never said they have a problem with Rafa' the man - it's their moaning at Rafa' the manager and acting like he's a novice and some of this current disaster is Deliberate on his part rather than the result of injuries as it often has been that REALLY riles me - add into that their DELIBERATE refusal to acknowledge factors other than Rafa' in the troubles we've had this year then you clearly have the makings of the explosion you just witnessed no?  And I repeat my challenge again - IF Rafa' is such a bad manager as some idiots on here have made him out to be - WHAT other than this season is there that you have to offer as PROOF of that and definitive reason why he SHOULD go BEFORE we get some decent owners and he has some PROPER backing as he's not yet had here?  I STILL await replies to that.....................

[stfabians]

I think the two 4 - 4 matches affected rafa really badly - especially the one at stanford bridge after the 3 - 1 loss at home!!!

[liverpooll]

Again, this match showed why are so behind to be champions.

Wigan were leading, yet they looked the more likely to get the 2nd goal, they were playing with speed and some good counter attack. Even look at their corners, they had at least 6 players in our box. I would not imagine this at Liverpool. Atm, the longer the game stays at 0-0, the more chances we have of winning as we just do not have the confidence to turn a goal deficit nor the ability to handle pressure at the last minutes. But here is the problem, we can say there are so many problems but either of us have a solution. Sometimes we say we do not have enough players forward, so when Rafa does that, we say we play long ball football. Sometimes we say there needs to be freedom and short passing, but when we do that it is always in the centre circle and eventually lose the ball to the opponents.

I think the key here is speed, which we lack very much, very patient football has never won anything which is a fact.

[DAVO1]

There is more shit going on behind the scenes than we know,I think there is a a very dangerous game being played and we are stuck in the middle,there will be big changes by the start of next term,us mugs will just have to wait to see who wins.

[Redshadow77]

We don't lack speed - liverpooll or finishing ability OR 'game' intelligence;  We just don't USE it with Rafa' preferring graft and industry for whatever reason to touch, speed and vision.  We had one of the strongest benches I've seen for a while last night with Aquilani, Babel, Johnson, Riera and Ngog ALL on there with pace, vision, ability and finishing ability in abundance but did Rafa' USE it properly? Not this time - he should have brought on Aquilani who outclassed BOTH midfields FAR earlier, Along with Babel who scared Wigan to death and Johnson who penned back their ENTIRE right flank should have gone on MUCH earlier as well.  It's just as well we've got players like those all coming back now - god do we really NEED them.................

Davo - Agree - I think the REAL fact to highlight from tonight is that it Probably ENSURES that we won't finish in the top 4 now and we all know what that means for the owners  (the games being played ALL involve them)........The END - In fact, after his rows with them in the past - whose to say Rafa' doesn't WANT them to be FORCED out - you could almost say he's put in this position deliberately.  I wonder...............................

[NatD]

Even though I love the man, I personally think his main faults are his stuborness, he's too tactical, and doesn't trust the players on the pitch

[smicer07]

Being stubborn is a good quality, though.

[surfer]

Ifs and buts and maybes...what use is all that shit?
Rafa has been here 6 years.
The expectancy level 10 years ago under Houllier is irrelevant.

Forget Istanbul a minute...since then we have reached another CL final and could well have won the league last year...so how is expecting a title challenge a bullshit expectation?
Istanbul has fuck all to do with it now...we expect because we've come so close and we have the players to do better.
Everyone expected it last August...I don't recall people coming out with '4th place and a cup run would be good' around that time.
We have failed miserably on all fronts...and now saying we expected too much is nonsense.

Open your eyes man...we have a squad that should be challenging for the league...it's as simple as that.
If you believe not, then I find that incredible.
We've lost one real key player from last season and the whole house of cards had come crumbling down.

You said since when have Liverpool expected a cup final and getting into Europe as a good season in the recent past, I pointed out that it was so during the latter part of Houllier's tenure. Everything that has followed since regarding Europe was generated by Rafa. There cannot be any criticism of him in this regard, what's there to pick on...he created the Liverpool as a latter-day European force bit.

I suppose many expected a league challenge last season, I didn't. I thought we would finish around 3rd, we went one better.

I didn't want to go down the squad route on this thread but since you touched on it twice: our squad is rubbish in certain departments. Rafa has never a signed a top level wide player. Charles N'zogbia is better than anything we have now and have had since Rafa's time here. He has signed top quality in pretty much every other position except there. That's a valid criticism. This season,  I don't feel solid with any of our centre-backs except maybe Agger. That department is nowhere near league winning quality.

This squad is definitely not title-worthy until we sort the issues out.

I've seen enough teams built in enough leagues to know whether a club is improving, standing still, or regressing. By my judgement, with Rafa, we continue to improve. I'm not really interested in dragging out my points on this thread, so I'll just post my view and be done with it. It's going to do f*ck all anyway if the swell goes against the man. He'll be sacked if enough fans believe he should be.

[The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society]

Some would say Shankly was slightly arrogant too mate.

I wouldn't. Shankly was confident in his ability (nothing wrong with that) and knew he knew the game more than most, his personality was brash and attention seeking but his number one motive was the club and the fans. I don't believe Shankly ever referred to himself as the special one or anything akin to that. It was always about the team, the club and the fans, very much the same personality traits and motivations as the incumbent gaffer.

[TipTopKop]

The team has quit on the manager, and this has been the case for some time now.

Short of letting 8 or 9 players go there is only one other option.

[BobbyDavro]

I've said it before, but for so many supposedly knowledgeable football fans to not 'get' Mourinho surprises me.

He won't come here anyway so it's all moot.  Real Madrid, untold riches and the chance to work with two of the three best players in the world - or Liverpool, fuck all money, and two great players and a whole load of average?

If he does choose us over them then he's worthy of respect immediately, because he'll be doing it for all the right reasons.

Anyway, is that it? Has the tipping point arrived?

[GIPPO77]

Think your on the money there tiptop. Hes lost the changing room.

[Liverbird 2010]

Being stubborn is a good quality, though.

Theres being stubborn and cutting your nose off to spite your face, by leaving Dirk on for 82 minutes last night, what is that doing for team moral of players that cannot even get picked, who are better footballers than him?
Lucas wasnt as bad as him and I understood why he was taken off because of his yellow card, but Dirk should have been subbed at half time.
He was at fault for the goal, gave the ball away every time he touched it, every attack broke down through him and yet no matter how bad he plays he is the first name on the team sheet. Enough of this teachers pet shite and he works hard, being at left back for the goal wtf was he doing there in the first place he's a striker, we needed to win that game last night, and it was Rafa & the players fault we didnt !!!

[Liverbird 2010]

The team has quit on the manager,

I dont think all of them have, and there are some that wont give a fuck about the club cause they know they will be out the door if he leaves.

[LFCYNWA]

I've said it before, but for so many supposedly knowledgeable football fans to not 'get' Mourinho surprises me.

He won't come here anyway so it's all moot.  Real Madrid, untold riches and the chance to work with two of the three best players in the world - or Liverpool, fuck all money, and two great players and a whole load of average?

If he does choose us over them then he's worthy of respect immediately, because he'll be doing it for all the right reasons.

Anyway, is that it? Has the tipping point arrived?

Tipping point has officially arrived mate Lille next !!!
Then the mighty Pompey on Monday !!!

Me personally I'd drop Gerrard for Lille as he just is not interested anymore . . . .

[liverpooll]

We don't lack speed - liverpooll or finishing ability OR 'game' intelligence;  We just don't USE it with Rafa' preferring graft and industry for whatever reason to touch, speed and vision.  We had one of the strongest benches I've seen for a while last night with Aquilani, Babel, Johnson, Riera and Ngog ALL on there with pace, vision, ability and finishing ability in abundance but did Rafa' USE it properly? Not this time - he should have brought on Aquilani who outclassed BOTH midfields FAR earlier, Along with Babel who scared Wigan to death and Johnson who penned back their ENTIRE right flank should have gone on MUCH earlier as well.  It's just as well we've got players like those all coming back now - god do we really NEED them.................

Davo - Agree - I think the REAL fact to highlight from tonight is that it Probably ENSURES that we won't finish in the top 4 now and we all know what that means for the owners  (the games being played ALL involve them)........The END - In fact, after his rows with them in the past - whose to say Rafa' doesn't WANT them to be FORCED out - you could almost say he's put in this position deliberately.  I wonder...............................

It is not necessary about how much speed a individual player but it is about how much speed we have in our game play. Just to think our best performances Istanbul , Real Madrid, Man Utd or even against Derby few seasons ago where we won 6-0 and played some good football . It all come from an urgency which we lack so much at the moment. Another point is Kuyt, who completely looks ineffective wherever he plays, middle,forward or flanks. His game is mostly about  closing down, he closes down every player in the hope their are some mistakes and he punishes them.

[Red-juvenated]

Not surprised at the team reverting to their early-season form after the international break, seems to happen every time. I dont know what strategy Rafa had for this game, especially since he thoroughly analyses every opponent and sets out a team to cope with their strengths and take advantages of their weaknesses.

The team did not seem to have a plan-of-action. There must be some patterns that they would have applied, eg when attacking from the centre, who moves where, who links up with who etc. There was no fluidity or cohesive movement or link up play. I dont know the insides of the training regime but I'm sure the team would have gone through some tactical attacking options, didnt see much evidence of that.

Though this is down to Rafa to plot, it is down to the players to implement. The team seemed to lack direction and as a result looked very disjointed, unsure, and  the lack of confidence was plain to see. Even Gerrard was errant with his ball control and his passing was wayward too often.

Cant see any short-cut way out of this. The only thing to do is put in a double shift of hard work and grind out results one game at a time, Lille next.

[Zaffarious]

He must have lost the dressing room, why hasn't Stevie come out in support of the manager saying we are all behind him. We have been poor etc and we got to help the manager out. Nothing.

I was SO pissed off with him last night, he looked totally uninterested. If Stevie and Jamie are causing problems, sell them. Get a good price while you can because these type of useless performences can not go on.

Last night i wanted rafa to go, this morning i want him to stay for 1 more season. sell the trouble makers and invest.

[GIPPO77]

Something not right amongst the players...or between the players and the manager..which?

[Daranoza]

Cant see any short cut way out of this. The only thing to do is put in a double shift of hard work and grind out results one game at a time.

People have been saying similar for months, now, but we're just not getting the results. We're not even 'grinding'. It's like they're just treading water and waiting for the final whistle. How do you fix that? Drop the non-performers to give them a kick up the arse? We can't afford to drop nine players. At any one time there are only two or three of them who look like they're even remotely interested. We don't have the squad to be able to do that.

I suppose a time will come when there's nothing else to lose and we can try to experiment. Take risks. As it stands now we're trying so hard to 'play it safe' that we don't seem to be moving at all.

[redrockydennis]

looks like rafa will go or half the squad will go at the minute.

not sure whether i care either way right now.

[tinkertailor]

I'd absolutely hate Mourinho to end up at Liverpool. Can you imagine? He's had England's Bravest Adulterer derobe in front of him! He's dried Frank Lampards tears and spoon-fed him chips and gravy! Ashley Cole still sends him drunken texts after seedy conquests in sweaty clubs - "hey Jose come back the sex & drugs dont work nemore" - and Cheryl Cole has her hair cut at his Milan salon.

He's fucking synonymous with another club in the league and, frankly, he's a silvering, slurring twat. If I ever see a Liverpool shirt with Mourinho on the back, I'll lie down in a gutter and try hard to die.

[steveeastend]

Yes, we're in danger right now. But the club is not in danger because of Rafa Benitez. It's in danger because of our owners. If we fail to reach 4th it's a danger because our useless owners haven't got the cash to deal with the situation.

Yes, but at the very moment we are in danger because our some of our players don´t give a shit anymore. 4th place is possible with this squad. Whatever owners or circumstances. And I miss the seriousness and awareness of the situation by the players. There´s something wrong between coach and players.
Actually I think it´s even too late now. If we don´t make it 4th I am worried about our club.
The performance reminds me  a lot on Chelsea last year under Scolari.

[lamonti]

I've been of the opinion that if he got fourth he'd have earned a chance to right the wrongs of this season. I stand by that. If he doesn't, and we finish seventh as look decidedly likely at this stage, we have to replace the manager. Much as I like him, this is by no means good enough.

There is a shit-load of talent in the squad and its the managers job to organize and motivate them into a team. Yes the some of the players have been disgracefully bad, but ultimately its the manager's responsibility. Its his neck on the line. And if we don't finish fourth I have to say, that I hope he goes, which it pains me to say because he's had three especially great seasons with the club. And it makes it all the worse how close we came last season, and that United are probably going to win at least one more major trophy this season, but a change needs to be made.

And I realise that long term, the problem is the owners, but if you want to use the owners as an excuse for that miserable garbage last and numerous times throughout the season, then your head is in the ground. It also leads one to worry about the lack of people capable of finding a new manager if it comes to that. Accountant Purslow? Soccer consultant Jurgen? Save us King Kenny!

Fucking gutted.

[GIPPO77]

Exactly,lamonti.

[scoopex]

Rafa Benitez has lost the trust of the senior players in the squad who clearly do not want to play for him anymore. Liverpool as a team are not feared by any other team in the Premier League as results this season have shown. Other Premier League teams in the so called big four seem to manage with injuries yet we have become the laughing stock of the so called big four and until Rafa Benitez is sacked we will never win the Premier League.

[kopitekop1]

Gr

i think rafa`s achilles heel is that he prefer`s players that put a shift in to players with ability.
against a team like wigan we should have started the game with something like the 11 we had on the pitch when the final whistle blew.
aquilani and mascherano should have started in central midfield, benayoun and babel should have been on the flanks and gerrard should have played behind torres.
he really needs to stop playing players like kuyt and maxi who arent going to give fullbacks nightmares.
if it`s not working then bring pacheco on from the bench.

Great point. Why do we just not have a go? Why sit back and try and hit on the break with a long ball up to Torres? Why play 2 holding midfielders especially against the likes of Wigan? It just looks like they are set up not to concede and score if possible. I know the team is lacking in confidence but surely with wide men down both flanks and 2 front men they would be more of a threat? Its just one dimensional and then with 75 mins gone have a go when its to late!!

[Wingman]

Owners won't be here come next season woof - Us losing 4th as we almost certainly HAVE tonight will ensure that.  Also I think Rafa' put Gerrard in the middle to shut up and pacify the Gerrard for 'Centre-Mid' brigade only for exactly what he feared WOULD happen TO happen and Gerrard to prove worse than useless.  Which ensured we lost in the end and was a damn shame as I thought Aquilani last night for the first time showed just WHY he's meant to replace Alonso by running our attack from the middle after being brought on (showing us just WHAT we missed from Alonso and WHY our game's been so bitty/stop-start this season and disjointed) along with ensuring NO-ONE got the ball off him - I think something may have clicked at last for Alberto - I also thought Babel looked focused, dangerous and made things happen from the minute HE was brought on as well - spot the problem there? Yep, they were BOTH substitutes - Babel and Aquilani - Shame Rafa' didn't start with them.  Bet he wishes he had now and hope he FINALLY learns his lesson from this latest debacle..........................

NB I also think all the idiots on here complaining about Rafa' and questioning HIS managerial aptitude are fools - what RIGHT have THEY to question our manager whose had 5 great to pretty good years with us and now with ONE bad patch they DARE call for his head and hand the incompetent buffoons we call owners the excuses they NEED to tear up his contract and sack him?  If our owners DO listen to the idiots - I'll tell you one thing - we will NOT see a manager of Rafa's calibre for many a year at Anfield - we won't deserve one either - Act in haste, repent at leisure is a phrase they should fill their heads with rather than the phone numbers of 'You're on Sky Sports' and 'Talksport' or remember this instead - Despite going through FOUR managers since sacking him - Chelsea STILL haven't found one of Mourinho's calibre until now - and WHO was the ONLY man to consistently get the better of Mourinho on a regular basis? I rest my case.   You think he should go do you idiots? Well here's a challenge you WILL fail; Using evidence that comes from a timespan including MORE seasons than just this one - PROVE IT.

NNB: Has anyone considered that Rafa' might have inadvertently done us a favour despite probably losing out on 4th spot? In that by doing so he has almost certainly terminated ANY outside chance that the Gruesome Twosome might have had of retaining even the slightest grip on our club? There's NO chance they'll even come CLOSE to getting enough to get ANOTHER refinance from the club and thus to cover their debts this time out - certainly not after this.  They'll probably be gone by July now and hopefully Rafa' and the team can start with a clean slate (and PROPER backing behind the scenes) whilst consigning the dire debacle that was season 09/10 where it belongs ASAP - to the history books.

QUIT with this CAPITAL letters SHIT PLEASE.

Thanks.

[GIPPO77]

OK..

[all_funkt_up]

Rafa needs our support but more importantly he needs the support of the players. I get the feeling that Gerrard has lost that loving feeling. Rafa needs to get his captain back on side or consider dropping him. He needs players out there that have confidence in him and belief and that has to start from the top. Are you better playing an exceptional player who has no faith in you as a manager or playing a good player who has faith in you and your decisions? I would go for the latter, I dont think he is a positive influence on the squid at present.

The body language of a few of our senior pro's absolutely speaks volumes at the moment. Question is though do we (and more importantly do the board) back Rafa or the players?

Now it hasnt come down to an 'us or them' scenario yet but I am sorry to say thats where its heading. Gerrard has been quiet on the matter for some time and that has to mean something. I think this will tear the squid and the supporters right down the middle.

[lamonti]

At this point I think we can clearly say that tactics aren't the fucking problem. We played with two deep midfielders all of last season. We played without Torres for most of last season too, we even have the atacking fullbacks we all craved last season.

The problem is not on the chalkboard because Rafa could fix that. The problems in the hearts and minds of the squad and Rafa is having a fucking hell of time fixing that.

[GIPPO77]

Why tho...have the players such as stevie and co,revolted against Rafa becuz he sold Xabi?

[Robo707]

Me personally I'd drop Gerrard for Lille as he just is not interested anymore . . . .

Sticky territory there, but I agree.

[Liverbird 2010]

The problem is not on the chalkboard because Rafa could fix that. The problems in the hearts and minds of the squad and Rafa is having a fucking hell of time fixing that.

And that is very worrying indeed, because I dont think he can the seasons nearly over and they have had the same mindset ALL season !!!

[.adam]

Why tho...have the players such as stevie and co,revolted against Rafa becuz he sold Xabi?

Perhaps because they don't know if they'll be playing in the next game regardless of whether or not they play well?

Or may because they see players sitting on the bench who they think can offer more than some of those on the pitch?

Perhaps it's because they realise what a joke it is that five years down the line we have players playing out of position (strikers on the wing, midfielders at right-back) rather than playing our back-up players?

Maybe it's the utter predictability in our tactical decisions (timings of substitutes, inability to risk going all out for the win)?

Finally, perhaps it's because Rafa persists with workhorse players with little technical ability ahead of players who they think could become real gems if given the chance?

I only say it because this is how I'm feeling and why I've lost faith in the manager.

[lamonti]

Why tho...have the players such as stevie and co,revolted against Rafa becuz he sold Xabi?

I don't know why. A multitude of reasons.

They are probably to some degree sulking because of the realisation that they left it behind last season.

Because they know that the club is financially hamstrung to a ridiculous degree by its owners and is as bad a position as is rumoured frequently around here. (As Pepe said at the start of the season.)

Because after six years maybe some of them are tired of Rafa's tactical rather than emotional management.

Some players like Carra are clearly struggling to come to grips with their own decline.

Glen Johnson just lost confidence because the team did and everyone in the press tells him he can't defend.

Insua's (a decent, but at this stage no more than decent youngster) had to cover for the crock and the clown at left-back all season.

Aquilani was injured more than we suspected - and Rafa publicly stating that he doesn't trust him defensively.

Maxi Rodriguez looks every bit the 1.1m pound player we bought.

Dirk's Dirk - we accept that, but not the fact that he's unmoveable, regardless of form.

Torres, Riera injured constantly and probably knackered from constant football as well as worrying about the World Cup, along with a whole host of players like Agger and Skrtel who probably realise they won't have many chances to play in one for their national teams.

Mascherano's head turned by Barca and his missus and probably concerned by Argentina's humungous shitness in qualifying.

Thats just a list of idle speculation about what can take players minds off the job at hand. But they've been fucking atrocious this year and Rafa hasn't fixed that, which is his job.

I know we have all defended Rafa methods numerous times over the years on things like rotation and zonal marking but look at this year. Finally Ryan Babel plays two decent games in a row and gets dropped. Zonal marking is clearly a good system, but only if anyone bothers to mark at all in the box. (Not to mention our own set pieces.) Like he's made his own bed with whats happened on the pitch.

My worry is that while the summer may see the owners forced out at some stage, its not going to be easy for anyone to manage a football team in that scenario.

[LFCYNWA]

Sticky territory there, but I agree.

Sticky indeed I think he's the best thing since sliced bread, wonderful player World class without a shadow of a doubt I'm met him a couple of times signed shirts, boots at home but  . . . hasn't shown how good he really is now for some time??

Will he motivate the troops for the run in . . .

[lamonti]

Sticky indeed I think he's the best thing since sliced bread, wonderful player World class without a shadow of a doubt I'm met him a couple of times signed shirts, boots at home but  . . . hasn't shown how good he really is now for some time??

Will he motivate the troops for the run in . . .

Run in? There's no run in. This is us til the end of the season:

[Hong Kong Phewy]

The team last night was Rafa's best 11 they get paid enough to have confidence and attitude but it is just not happening. It the shirt that matters and if you don't want to wear it you should be dropped and give it to someone who does, these cretins don't realise how lucky they are to play for our club. Finally getting rid of Rafa, (who would do his job? Alex Mcliesh!!! be careful what you wish for)) is not the answer until those snake oil salesmen are booted out we will never move forward. YANKS OUT