Topic: "You go, and I'll just die here"

[MBL?]

An 11-year-old boy who was brutally attacked by two brothers in a wooded ravine told the nine-year-old with him 'you go and I'll just die here', a court heard today.
A judge continued to hear horrifying details today of how the two young boys were subjected to a 90-minute violent ordeal by the two brothers, who were 10 and 11 at the time.
Today, Nicholas Campbell QC, prosecuting, continued outlining the prosecution case against the brothers.

Mr Campbell described how, after the brothers left the scene, the younger boy knelt next to the other boy and asked him if he was OK.
Court sketch of the brothers in court with social workers and a female solicitor
The elder boy replied: 'No. I can't see and I can't move my body.'
He went on: 'You go and I'll just die here.'
Yesterday the families of the victims gasped and sobbed as Sheffield Crown Court was shown a mobile phone clip of part of the violence filmed by one of the brothers.
More...'Hell of a picture': What young sadist said as brother filmed bloodied victim of their attack on two innocent boys

The judge, Mr Justice Keith, heard the victims were strangled, smashed with bricks, forced to eat nettles, stripped and forced to sexually abuse each other.
The elder boy was seriously injured when pieces of a ceramic sink were dropped on his head.

Today is the second day of a three-day sentencing exercise which is expected to conclude tomorrow.
Mr Campbell said the younger victim left the scene and soon came across a local man who noticed he was covered in blood and had an obvious wound on his arm.
Two girls also came across the blood-soaked youngster.
Derek Wright, who lived on Auburn Road, Edlington, saw the youngster and laughed at first because he thought he had been painted, the prosecutor said.


When he realised the boy was covered in blood and shivering he took him into his home, the court heard.
Eventually the young victim told Mr Wright about the older boy, saying: 'He's down there but he can't see.'
He said: 'Some boys have beat me up with long sticks.'
The court heard how at this point the boy's eyes started to roll and it seemed he was going into shock.
Mr Campbell said the younger victim's parents then arrived at Mr Wright's home followed by paramedics.
He said a medic 'was able to see bone and a lot of mud amidst the blood'.

Mr Wright's sons, Trevor and Ian, then began to search for the second boy as the police were alerted, the judge heard.
'It took some time to find (the boy) and it was Ian Wright who stumbled upon him,' Mr Campbell said.
Horror: Jury members sob as they watch the mobile phone footage
'Through the trees he saw (him) lying face down on the ground at the bottom of a ravine.'
The court heard Mr Wright found the boy with the bottom half of his body naked. He was wearing only a T-shirt on the upper half.
It was told Mr Wright found a branch stuck to the youngster's face but decided not to remove it because one of the thorns was embedded in his cheek.
As the boy slipped into unconsciousness, Mr Wright feared he had died. He said at the time: 'There didn't appear to be any life in him.'
Mr Campbell said Mr Wright was so upset he ran off when the air ambulance arrived, smashing his head on branches as he fled.

A doctor who arrived with the air ambulance found the elder victim to be 'unresponsive', with shallow breathing and a weak pulse, the judge heard.

The doctor decided to work on the boy in the helicopter for some time before it took off.
She noted his temperature was just 28.5C - a sign of severe hypothermia, the judge was told.

The boy was later admitted to the intensive care unit at Sheffield Children's Hospital. Mr Campbell said he had a range of injuries all over his body, including fractures to his face.

The boy was kept on artificial ventilation at the hospital for two days.

The prosecutor said: 'Had he lain undiscovered for very much longer, (the hospital consultant) is of the opinion that the outcome could well have been a fatal one.'

Mr Campbell said the other boy's injuries were not life-threatening. The most graphic was the wound on his left forearm.

The prosecutor said: 'But he received many less serious injuries, as did (the other boy), covering his whole body.' He noted a series of thorns were taken from his feet.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1244984/I-stopped-arms-aching-Horrific-confession-11-year-old-sadist-tortured-young-boys.html

[MBL?]

I'm not easily taken aback but that is shocking to read.

[Refo]

wow

[CheshireDave]

Sound like a fucking scumbag family.

Lock the little shits up for a good few years and the father too.

[Gromit]

When I was doing my psychology degree at LJMU, there were some interesting discussions and lectures on criminal behaviour and the reasons for them.  They always ended up in a neverending debate over free will and determinism, and this is what I took from them;

Some people, even kids, are just evil.  There will be arguments that they should be given a second chance to be rehabilitated, but really what does that mean.  Reforming of character is an inexact process so was it just a massive coincidence that the Bulger killers managed to be 'rehabilitated' in the same amount of time.

Reading the statement by their lawyers, it seems they grew up in an abusive environment and thus they were made sociopaths rather than born psychopaths.  If you accept this as explanation for their character, you are dismissing their ability for free will and placing the responsibility purely on environment.  If you believe in this form of determinism, than should they be punished at all for their actions which has been ingrained in them, rather than them choosing to act this way.

No doubt growing up in a toxic environment will damage people, but I believe people still get to choose how they live their lives and thus should be accountable for their actions.  The problem is there are probably too many other people growing up in the same situation, and too few of them will choose to do the right thing.

[richiedouglas]

This is horrific to read but necessary. It's amazing this sort of thing can happen in society.

[TipTopKop]

Couples breed, but do not educate these days

[PhilV]

like someone above has said I really do think some people are just messed up, they just are, no explanation, to do something like that, at that age, is evil, no other word for it.

Now I am 23, when I was 10/11 all I cared about was playing footie with my mates and a bit of Playstation etc... beating up two boys, stripping them naked and basically torturing them is very sadistic and for a 11yr old to be doing it is seriously ****ed up.

the world is full of weirdos man.

[sirjames]

I am not sure at what could be done with the two boys.

Lock them up for 30 years - yes agree but they will be less educated spending time in a poor enviroment and possibly grow to resent the law for taking there childhood.

Re-abiltate them - do they really deserve to have money, time and effort spent on them with no real evidence that it will work?

Lock up the parents - almost certainly but this still does not address the issue.

I know what i would want to do but it is not really a realistic option.

what are peoples opinion of punishment?

[redmen9]

As I understand, the boys are 2 of 7 brothers.  I wonder how the other 5 will fare.

Truly shocking and disgusting.  Why are these people encouraged to have large families when they do not possess the capacity to look after them and rear them properly.  They are partly the product of the lax benefits system in this country.

[Stevie-G]

Shocking. Life in prison if it were up to me. Will not happen though

[TipTopKop]

like someone above has said I really do think some people are just messed up, they just are, no explanation, to do something like that, at that age, is evil, no other word for it.

But you're not born 'evil' are you ? I mean everyone starts with a clean slate, not knowing a single word of Japanese/English/French etc, it has to be down to how you're brought up, the environment around you, relatives, neighbours, but for me it has to be mostly (if not fully) the responsibility of the parents.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

As I understand, the boys are 2 of 7 brothers.  I wonder how the other 5 will fare.

Truly shocking and disgusting.  Why are these people encouraged to have large families when they do not possess the capacity to look after them and rear them properly.  They are partly the product of the lax benefits system in this country.

I don't think it is fair to describe them as lax.  There is a problem inherent in any benefit system which is that it additional benefits targetted at children are made available to "good" parents who happen to have fallen on hard times and who will use all those monies for the upbringing of their children then those benefits will also be claimable by "bad" parents who intend to use the money for beer and fags.

Do we really think that families are deliberately having extra children for financial gain though?  Is it not simply that some people seem to be incapable of family planning?

Even if we think that child targetted benefits are driving people to have extra children how do we change them without unwanted knock on effects?  For example a policy where additional monies are not payable for any child (other than a first or second child) born whilst already on benefits. It may work but it also may throw thousands of children into poverty, dramatically increase the abortion rate and perhaps worse.

[Shaun101]

But you're not born 'evil' are you ? I mean everyone starts with a clean slate, not knowing a single word of Japanese/English/French etc, it has to be down to how you're brought up, the environment around you, relatives, neighbours, but for me it has to be mostly (if not fully) the responsibility of the parents.

I disagree that it's one or the other.

It is a combination of Nature and Nurture. Yes the enviroment can push you one way but .. how you deal with that is based on responses that are fundamentally ingrained in our phsyche. That could be react postively or negatively to any situation.

Genetically we will react based on our Genes with input from experience and enviroment.

However back on topic - Heart says they are little c*nts who deserve to be shot but my head says they need an oppourtunity to repair both themselves and teh damage they have done.

How..That is the million dollar question.

[Garstonite]

Did you think I would leave you dying?

[Bullan]

But you're not born 'evil' are you ? I mean everyone starts with a clean slate, not knowing a single word of Japanese/English/French etc, it has to be down to how you're brought up, the environment around you, relatives, neighbours, but for me it has to be mostly (if not fully) the responsibility of the parents.

For every kid that gets neglected or physically abused and ending up doing the same as an adult, there are tens if not hundreds who come through that ordeal mentally and sometimes physically scarred but going in the exact opposite direction , knowing full well that what happened to them should not happen to others.

There are documented cases of Antisocial Personality Disorder in people who grew up in stable loving homes where there is absolutely no abuse to explain their behavior.

The fact of the matter is that in some cases too much loving can trigger pathological narcissism which is a trait often seen in Psycho/Sociopaths, so I'd say it's far too easy to reach for the pitchforks and go after the parents when the underlying cause is far from being as cut and dry as that.

Most human beings have a degree of empathy some less than others, but what you'll find with most of those with APD is a complete lack thereof and I think when that coupled with a scenario where even some basic moral principles are not taught you have a dangerous combination.

When faced with the question of what to do with these young boys, the father in me would most certainly want to see them swing from the nearest tree, but as someone who's studied some socio and psychology and an avid student of the human psyche I'd say that the only course of action would be to simply do a Pavlov/Skinner on them and try to make the choices between wrong and right an innate conditioned responses.

Empathy cannot be taught, but rehabilitation might be able to help them dealing with the difference between right and wrong and learn some emotional mechanism to deal with those situations.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

But you're not born 'evil' are you ? I mean everyone starts with a clean slate, not knowing a single word of Japanese/English/French etc, it has to be down to how you're brought up, the environment around you, relatives, neighbours, but for me it has to be mostly (if not fully) the responsibility of the parents.

Uh-oh nature vs nurture debate coming over the hill.  It has to be both surely?
Everyone starts with a clean slate, but some people are clearly born more intelligent than others.  If we accept that is the case then why can some people not be born who are more prone to violence, more short-tempered, more sadistic, more inclined to infringe societal boundaries etc?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Did you think I would leave you dying?

Shut it Rolf.

[Shaun101]

For every kid that gets neglected or physically abused and ending up doing the same as an adult, there are tens if not hundreds who come through that ordeal mentally and sometimes physically scarred but going in the exact opposite direction , knowing full well that what happened to them should not happen to others.

There are documented cases of Antisocial Personality Disorder in people who grew up in stable loving homes where there is absolutely no abuse to explain their behavior.

The fact of the matter is that in some cases too much loving can trigger pathological narcissism which is a trait often seen in Psycho/Sociopaths, so I'd say it's far too easy to reach for the pitchforks and go after the parents when the underlying cause is far from being as cut and dry as that.

Most human beings have a degree of empathy some less than others, but what you'll find with most of those with APD is a complete lack thereof and I think when that coupled with a scenario where even some basic moral principles are not taught you have a dangerous combination.

When faced with the question of what to do with these young boys, the father in me would most certainly want to see them swing from the nearest tree, but as someone who's studied some socio and psychology and an avid student of the human psyche I'd say that the only course of action would be to simply do a Pavlov/Skinner on them and try to make the choices between wrong and right an innate conditioned responses.

Empathy cannot be taught, but rehabilitation might be able to help them dealing with the difference between right and wrong and learn some emotional mechanism to deal with those situations.

More eloquently put that I could - agree 100% with this mate.

Speaking from very personal experience of a "anti-social" or wrong type of upbringing ( Iwon't go into details)  I reacted differently to the examples show that is not to say there is a different tipping point with every individual - why ? I don't know I just did.

As a father myself I tend to use my examples as a role model of what not to do or to be rather than extrapolating the "norm".

[PhilV]

But you're not born 'evil' are you ? I mean everyone starts with a clean slate, not knowing a single word of Japanese/English/French etc, it has to be down to how you're brought up, the environment around you, relatives, neighbours, but for me it has to be mostly (if not fully) the responsibility of the parents.

maybe not but you are born in some state or other, no two brains are the same, you can bring two people up in the same environment and surrounded by the same people and they may turn out completely different, at the end of the day we are all different in our heads and some people are just messed up I'm afraid!

[pascoli]

I read about this in the Metro this morning, and it shook me to the core (an all too common feeling over the last few years unfortunately)

Reminded me of the obvious local cases (James Bulger and the poor lad who was skilled and found in the park facing bootle golf course, by Moss Lane.

"Apparantly" the 11 yr olds were allowed to watch porn, smoke weed and watch Saw etc  dont tbhink they were given much of a chance to start off with

[TipTopKop]

it's far too easy to reach for the pitchforks and go after the parents when the underlying cause is far from being as cut and dry as that.

I'd definitely say the human mind is far too complicated to expect everyone to turn out the same way, and I certainly wouldn't go after the parents with pitchforks, but to me, it's the first place I'd look for answers, it may not be there, but most of the time, in my opinion, you can see the genesis of things there.

[Bullan]

I'd definitely say the human mind is far too complicated to expect everyone to turn out the same way, and I certainly wouldn't go after the parents with pitchforks, but to me, it's the first place I'd look for answers, it may not be there, but most of the time, in my opinion, you can see the genesis of things there.

I see where your going with that, and to be fair with what little I can gauge of their so called parents, I'd say that there could be a pretty convincing argument of making them responsible.
However that does not invalidate the points made about APD or lack of empathy as a human response to their own actions.

Without knowing these boys, or having been privy to their psychological evaluations it's impossible to say one way or the other if this simply a case of them not having any boundaries or morals as a direct result of neglect, or indeed if its something far more serious.

As is always the case, it's  how they ultimately have responded to their actions, and if indeed they feel remorse or not.
The problem with that however is the young age , because there is a common side effect to psychological traumas in children where they disassociate themselves with the trauma, which can result in them experiencing no emotional response to it, because to them it didn't happen.

I'm going off on a tangent here though, and sorry to go off the main point, but I guess I just wanted to point out that it's not always as simple as blaming the parents.

[MichaelA]

Empathy cannot be taught, but rehabilitation might be able to help them dealing with the difference between right and wrong and learn some emotional mechanism to deal with those situations.

This a cracking point in a really insightful post, well in Bullan. The older I get the more I realise that empathy is one of the key traits of humanity in individuals and socieites - the ability to understand how your actions impact on others does, to varying degrees, inform your own behaviour. I don't think the Nazi's did empathy much.

[jaffod]

My first reaction was to think strip their backs. Then I read of their deprived upbringing and realised they are a product of their environment. Then I thought about Venables and Thompson, who also had shitty upbringings. Given the opportunity, I honestly believe I could quite gladly put a fucking bullet into their miserable heads even after all these years. Maybe it was just too close to home.
 Suppose what I'm saying is I really don't know what the answer is. They need severe punishment regardless of the circumstances which led them to this sort of behaviour. Whether they can be fully rehabilitated and returned to society is a question for the experts.

[Bullan]

This a cracking point in a really insightful post, well in Bullan. The older I get the more I realise that empathy is one of the key traits of humanity in individuals and socieites - the ability to understand how your actions impact on others does, to varying degrees, inform your own behaviour. I don't think the Nazi's did empathy much.

Thanks mate.

What happened with the Nazis and their whole unter menschen thing is actually a classic case of disassociation.

With their Arian ideology and emphasis on race and sub humans they were able to reclassify the Jews in their collective minds and thus make it easier to think of them as vermin who deserved nothing more than being exterminated.

It's a common misconception that all Nazis were simply Evil, but whoever was in charge of their conditioning knew exactly what they were doing.

[Olives]

Uh-oh nature vs nurture debate coming over the hill.  It has to be both surely?

well, it doesn't have to be... but in this case, yes, it is.

[Olives]

sentences are in, 5 years in secure training centre http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7052158/Edlington-attacks-two-brothers-locked-up-for-appalling-and-terrible-crimes.html

[macca888]

Did you think I would leave you dying?

I really, really didn't want to but   

Anyway, Gromit and VdM have pretty much hit the nail on the head. Nature v nurture, determinism v free will; both decent enough debates. However, I just don't think that either argument fundamentally addresses the idea that some people are just inherently evil for a number of factors. I mean, where do we draw the line on the nurture debate? Surely the fact that these children have not developed any social or emotional skills is due to the fact that they aren't as traditionally intelligent as other children, for which of course we could blame the parents for lacking intelligence in the first place? See how bollocks that argument sounds? We just have to face the truth that some people will always be pre-disposed to violent and evil actions, regardless of their environment. Don't forget, some rich and traditionally privileged children are equally capable of acts of terrifying evil. Someone will have to help me out here with the name, but the one that springs to my mind is the Californian heir to a fortune who was a sadistic multiple rapist.

[Olives]

Surely the fact that these children have not developed any social or emotional skills is due to the fact that they aren't as traditionally intelligent as other children,

social and emotion skills are not related to cognitive intelligence

[TipTopKop]

Don't forget, some rich and traditionally privileged children are equally capable of acts of terrifying evil. Someone will have to help me out here with the name, but the one that springs to my mind is the Californian heir to a fortune who was a sadistic multiple rapist.

World leaders   ? (not children I know, but...)

[Ultimate Bromance]

Fucking hell. Just...fucking hell.

[OsirisMVZ]

Don't forget, some rich and traditionally privileged children are equally capable of acts of terrifying evil. Someone will have to help me out here with the name, but the one that springs to my mind is the Californian heir to a fortune who was a sadistic multiple rapist.

Another example from a local setting would be Brian Blackwell.

[macca888]

social and emotion skills are not related to cognitive intelligence

That's far too simplistic an idea. Just like the spider's web analogy, all the various forms of intelligence are inter-dependent even if only indirectly connected.

[Olives]

That's far too simplistic an idea. Just like the spider's web analogy, all the various forms of intelligence are inter-dependent even if only indirectly connected.

you can be highly intelligent and yet lack emotional intelligence and social skills.  equally, you can be as dumb as soap, but highly social.

[xavidub]

This a cracking point in a really insightful post, well in Bullan. The older I get the more I realise that empathy is one of the key traits of humanity in individuals and socieites - the ability to understand how your actions impact on others does, to varying degrees, inform your own behaviour. I don't think the Nazi's did empathy much.

To me, empathy is THE key determinant in human behaviour towards others. It seems to me that any person who is developing along a course to being a decent person has to have empathy with others and with other living creatures. Anyone who is missing it deeply disturbed imo, which is why I think that kids who torture animals need intensive psychological intervention as its only a short step from there to inflicting violence on humans.

Normal people who enter an army at war, for instance, have to be intensively trained NOT to empathise with the enemy. It sounds like you wouldn't have to train these kids at all.

[gerrardspetal]

That's so sad.

[electricghost]

Don't forget, some rich and traditionally privileged children are equally capable of acts of terrifying evil. Someone will have to help me out here with the name, but the one that springs to my mind is the Californian heir to a fortune who was a sadistic multiple rapist.

Is this the one macca ?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/fugitive-max-factor-heir-held-in-mexico-541143.html

[Terry De Niro]

The two scum bags will get help and mollycoddled for the rest of their lives.
Meanwhile the real victims will be forever mentally tortured by their ordeal.

Sick of hearing about cases like this.

[MichaelA]

The two scum bags will get help and mollycoddled for the rest of their lives.
Meanwhile the real victims will be forever mentally tortured by their ordeal.

Sick of hearing about cases like this.

The perpetrators will quite rightly receive support and help to ensure that they do not suffer from the repercussions of this for the rest of their lives. Maybe one day in the future they may be able to lead the happy and productive lives that many of us take for granted.

The victims will quite rightly receive support and help to ensure that they do not suffer from the repercussions of this for the rest of their lives. Maybe one day in the future they may be able to lead the happy and productive lives that many of us take for granted.