Author Topic: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?  (Read 138156 times)

Offline Aquilani

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1200 on: November 11, 2009, 01:44:15 AM »
Again peddling this line. Babel arrived the same summer. Did Bellamy fund them both?

yeap

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1201 on: November 11, 2009, 02:15:06 AM »
I believe that the blind," In Rafa we trust / Unconditional Support", brigade have unwittingly damaged him recently. Any manager makes mistakes, and some have used ANY mistake as evidence that he is flawed.
You know, that hadn't really occurred to me.

Well, it doesn't seem like a big source of damage compared to a blanket media slating campaign, fuckwitted owners who are tying his hands and have undermined him publicly several times - and are proven liars to boot, moronic fans monopolising radio waves with ignorant views stoked by manapilative and vindictive hosts and a massive injury list.

Still, I'll tell you what, once we've sorted out the problems caused by the media, the owners, idiotic loudmouth supporters, agenda-driven football pundits and cured all our injuries, we'll get right on fixing the damage caused by these so called fans/supporters who, it seems, fanatically support their team, its managers and its players through thick and thin, regardless of results.
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Offline lfc_bhoy

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1202 on: November 11, 2009, 03:31:51 AM »
Did those few minutes off the pitch really make a difference?

The magnitude of the idiocy of this statement alone, taken on it's own, without the assistance of your other, equally puerile statements, is truly astounding.  There are, at my estimation, no less then five very obvious, easily deduced problems with this statement, most simply pertaining to a rudimentary understanding of the physical world.
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Offline LFCfan4Life

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1203 on: November 11, 2009, 10:19:41 AM »
Again peddling this line. Babel arrived the same summer. Did Bellamy fund them both?

bellamy was on very good wages when he moved here and we couldn't afford to pay him and torres very good wages
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Offline Yellow Tarmac

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1204 on: November 11, 2009, 11:30:07 AM »
From the fount of football knowledge.....Singapore.....figures.

is dat u voyeur?

Offline Dr Cornwallis

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1205 on: November 11, 2009, 11:33:02 AM »
bellamy was on very good wages when he moved here and we couldn't afford to pay him and torres very good wages

Hmmm, not so sure that's the case.  Bellamy was leage flotsam when he came to us, it's only now he's at fashionable City that he is being considered a good player, unsurprisingly enough.
And in fact, Bellamy was on £45,000 a week here, whereas he was offered £60,000 to stay at Blackburn at the time.

Offline sattapaal

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1206 on: November 11, 2009, 02:41:50 PM »
Yes, but these things are only true according to the media. According to reality, they are massively dubious.

According to reality, IE realistic appraisals of where we should be based on realistic factors suggest that Rafa is, at worst, doing as well as could be reasonably expected. There's a very compelling argument that he's actually over-performed significantly (in that we consistently finish higher than our wage bill suggests we should, for example...).

As for the Gerrard and Torres thing - they played together in less than half our games last season. We finished on 86 points, 4 behind Man Utd.

A 'swing' that ultimately boiled down to Gerrard having a perfectly good goal disallowed against Stoke, while Man Utd scored a last minute winner against 10 man stoke, scored by the man who not only got Stoke down to 10 men, but should in fact have been sent off for a retaliatory kick against that same man before Stoke's red card actually happened. I know, I know it doesn't really work like that (if we'd beaten Stoke we might not have played that well in the matches after etc etc etc) but I think it does illustrate just how small the difference really was in the end.

So again, of course we miss them when either or especially both are out, but clearly there is some hope without them, no?

Not least because the problem without those two is supposed to be that we are shit in attack.

Well, hold on, we've scored 27 in 12 games this season, 2 of those last night, and how many games have G&T actually played together so far? Less than half of those surely?

So, basically, you're 'reason' for the media bias, is actually itself an example of media bias.

At the very, very, very best (and this is showing wholly unjustified compassion to our media) they are against us because they are either to lazy to research proper evidence or to stupid to understand it.

It's most certainly got absolutely fuck all to do with 'knowing what it takes', because they change their minds about that every fucking five games anyway - last year it was cast iron, 100% proven media grade titanium FACT that 'Rafa's Rotation' was the cause of most of our problems, and that you can't win anything without a 'settled core (TM)' as employed by 'Mr Alex the Great (TM)'.

Now, you can't win anything unless you 'Rest and refresh like the great Scottish rejuvinator, inventor and pioneer of the all new, 100% effective strength in depth through lots of options formula - so different to the old 'rotation system' it's like it's exactly the same in every way!!!'

Incidentally, those four qualities you mention (pace, aggression, technique, strength) are essential everywhere. If you had a team of players who had world class attributes in all those areas (plus mental strength, which you weirdly ignore) you'd win just about everything. There's always a balancing act, and a different emphasis can work. Chelsea, for example, don't have any more pace than we do. Utd don't have much pace this season - Evra, sure, who else? One of Valencia or Nani, depending on which non scoring, non assisting luxury non-replacement for Ronaldo Fungus desperately hopes will justify some of their enourmous fee this week...neither as trusted out wide as 93 year old Giggs, who is still quick - but only if you compare him to 98 year old Paul Scholes or the only professional footballer who plays on Ketamine Berbatov). It isn't the be all and end all, not least because most of the pundits are, at best, 20 years behind where the game is now, so they're all working from the same 1990's 'Early Fungus' blueprint that O'Neill is, and that hasn't really worked since, er, the 1990's.



good post mate.

Mentality
------------

I've struggled to understand what Rafa wants in a players mentality. In my opinion, we have many "Champions" in our first 11, you can just see it in how they get frustrated in whats happening on the Pitch, and try to take the game into their own hands, e.g. Mascherano/Agger/Johnson driving the attack forward.

But I dont know how much of that is appreciated by Rafa, does he want those players to shoot from distance? I remember in the first Man Utd/Liverpool match he took charge of, he called Sinama-Pongolle back to stop him chasing down the goalkeeper or a lost cause, because he didnt want them to attack the position he left, compact football. I think he was playing right-midfield at the time, not sure. But that was a huge sign of how players had to give up a section of their mentality to be consumed with Rafa's ethics, tactics and beliefs.

I believe Rafa is a strict control freak, but he should be, he has huge responsibility on his shoulders, and that needs to be delegated to people/players he can trust. How much he relies on players mentalities, I dont know.

We can talk about how there is a never-give-up attitude of kuyt and a selfish attitude of torres. but when it comes to babel, I believe Rafa see's him as an injection of pace and powerful shot. But I don't know.

Goals Scored / Presence of Gerrard/Torres.
-----------------------------------------------------

We've scored 27 in 12 games.

We've scored some insignificant but entertaining goals in games against:

Stoke (4-0)  - Torres/Gerrard Played.
Burnley (4-0) - Torres/Gerrard Played.
Hull (6-1) - Torres/Gerrard Played.

27 minus say, 10, thats 17 significant goals scored. Significant meaning, they've won us points/kept us in the game. In 12 games. Is that enough? if those 10 goals were shared amongst the other 9 games, we would be in a better position than we are. So the record of 27 goals in 12 games doesn't matter at all. What does matter are the amounts of chances we create, the amount of times we split open the opposition. The amount of shots taken. Look at the Birmingham game, we absolutely mullered them, but still, there wasn't enough clear cut opportunities carved out to score.

I don't think you can undervalue the impact of Torres and/or Gerrards importance in potency in attack. If you say they've only played half a dozen games together, I believe you, but along with a champions mentality, they have all the attributes you want to win matches. We just need more of that, when 1) they are on the pitch, and 2) when they arent even in the 16. Kuyt may have the mentality, strength, determination. But he does not have the technique & pace to fill in for both Torres and Gerrard. Obviously 1 man cannot do 2 peoples jobs, (even though I am - recession is crap) but those attributes need to be replaced should they not be present.

Those who fill in for Torres and Gerrard are Ngog and Benayoun, but also occassionally Babel and Voronin. All bar Benayoun, have been fully fit this year. Should Ngog be the permanent substitute for Torres? Should Babel be the permanent substitute for Kuyt? Benayoun can play on the left, and also fill in for gerrard. But the balance of pace & strength is missing when he does so. What to do? We know the answer is not Voronin.
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Offline cockneyscouse

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1207 on: November 11, 2009, 03:46:48 PM »
"Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?"

No only thick ones want him out  ;D

Offline skidz73

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1208 on: November 11, 2009, 03:57:07 PM »
Can't say I really understand the point of the post? Are you trying to get people into a reasoned debate abut whether Rafa is right for the job, or are you trying to antagonise the morons who want him out, by using such loaded language? :P
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Offline DangerScouse

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1209 on: November 11, 2009, 04:10:31 PM »
Again peddling this line. Babel arrived the same summer. Did Bellamy fund them both?

Is this a good enough reason for selling him?

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=249774.0

John Arne Riise has just released a book "Fortellingen om Liverpool" (The story about Liverpool).
In the book he reveales what happened between him and Craig Bellamy that famous night in Spain.

http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/11/11/sport/john_arne_riise/craig_bellamy/liverpool/fotball/8985984/

My translation:
"Bellamy enter my bedroom at night with a golf club trying to beat me. Luckily I managed to move my legs, so I did not get any serious injuries. But when I stood up, Bellamy hit me in the knee and in the hip. I got some bruises, and got very angry. I was stronger and bigger than him, and wanted to get in a fight. But I thought about my future in the club, and choose not to get involved. Steve Finnan calms Bellamy down and suggested that Bellamy and me should finish the fight the next day. I turned up, Bellamy didn't."

Sorry if the translation is poor.

Offline The Grinch

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1210 on: November 11, 2009, 04:25:03 PM »
Isn't it strange that people who bring up Rafa failing to keep Crouch and Bellamy happy at Liverpool fail to acknowledge that Bellamy at the age of 30 has played for 8 clubs and Crouch at 28 has played for 11 clubs.

They also strangely forget that both Bellamy and Crouch are already on their 2nd clubs since leaving Liverpool.

One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline xerxes1

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1211 on: November 11, 2009, 04:35:56 PM »
You know, that hadn't really occurred to me.
Well, it doesn't seem like a big source of damage compared to a blanket media slating campaign, fuckwitted owners who are tying his hands and have undermined him publicly several times - and are proven liars to boot, moronic fans monopolising radio waves with ignorant views stoked by manapilative and vindictive hosts and a massive injury list.
Still, I'll tell you what, once we've sorted out the problems caused by the media, the owners, idiotic loudmouth supporters, agenda-driven football pundits and cured all our injuries, we'll get right on fixing the damage caused by these so called fans/supporters who, it seems, fanatically support their team, its managers and its players through thick and thin, regardless of results.

I suspected it might be a bit subtle for you.

My support for Rafa  acknowledges that he has made mistakes, but has done better than anyone else could have done in the circumstances, and is better than anyone we are likley to get to replace him.

My point is that blind trust and faith exposes him to critisism for anything he does wrong which feeds the very frenzy you are hoping to avoid.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 04:38:12 PM by xerxes1 »
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Offline Our No.9 never dives

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1212 on: November 11, 2009, 04:48:58 PM »


"Bellamy enter my bedroom at night with a golf club trying to beat me. Luckily I managed to move my legs, so I did not get any serious injuries. But when I stood up, Bellamy hit me in the knee and in the hip. I got some bruises, and got very angry. I was stronger and bigger than him, and wanted to get in a fight. But I thought about my future in the club, and choose not to get involved. Steve Finnan calms Bellamy down and suggested that Bellamy and me should finish the fight the next day. I turned up, Bellamy didn't."


I always wanted him as a squad player in our team .
But after reading what risse wrote , i wish he never set his foot again  at anfield.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 12:28:38 AM by Our No.9 never dives »

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1213 on: November 11, 2009, 05:25:17 PM »
My point is that blind trust and faith exposes him to critisism for anything he does wrong which feeds the very frenzy you are hoping to avoid.
What, you think it's loyal supporters who feed the criticism of Rafa? I mean, really?

Maybe it's a tiny factor that pisses some people off (though people who get pissed off at blind faith from Liverpool fans really ought to fuck off and support another club, in my opinion) but you really think it's 'superfans' who make someone like Cascarino get up in the morning, all inspired to write yet another hatchet job about 'The Spaniard'?

There's all sorts of good reasons why the media would dislike Rafa, money being the absolute king of them all (IE Man Utd make money for Sky, we're their enemies, ergo slating us is quite literally following the money, that's more than reason enough for Sky to big up Man Utd and slate us)...but blind faith among supporters?

Naaah. Really can't see that being much of the fuel to it, although I'd be happy for you to enlighten me, if you could actually explain some of the process and ins and outs of it, rather than stating as fact that blind faith fuels the criticism. Because to be honest, I think the critics would spout their shit regardless of anyone else...I seriously doubt they'd suddenly start praising Rafa if only those evil 'superfans' would stop.

I appreciate that it might be too 'subtle' for me to take in all at once, but, you know, that's why I'm asking you to go back to basics, explain me through this process of how backing the manager regardless leads to him being criticised step by step, so that the subtlety of the process doesn't go waaay over my head...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 05:32:52 PM by hesbighesred »
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Offline jDJ

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1214 on: November 11, 2009, 05:41:46 PM »
I don't think unconditional support is a bad thing personally but I can follow the argument.  It does annoy me when I read posts saying - he's our manager, support him! - because I don't simply support Rafa because he's the manager of Liverpool, I support him because I think we've made fantastic progress and is absolutely the best man for the job.

I think there is a danger of those in support of Rafa being dismissed as blind loyalists who would support the manager come what may.  It would be incredibly dangerous if the Americans got this impression as they could well conclude a change in manager would be quickly accepted by the fans.  "The king is dead, long live the king".

Thankfully, I think the intelligent, considered opinion of the majority of Liverpool fans sings loudest.  I hope it does anyway.  I can't bear to listen to phone-ins at the moment because so much rubbish is spouted by people claiming to be Liverpool supporters, it is a concern that some people's opinion of what Liverpol fans feel about the manager is entirely informed by what they hear on 606.

Offline incredibleL4ever

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1215 on: November 11, 2009, 05:45:23 PM »
There are some on here who believe that Rafa can do no wrong and H&G can do no right.  a bit of perspective wouldn't go amiss.  Rafa is a top quality manager but has got it wrong from time to time.  H&G are lying, money grabbers, but the first team is much stonger now than it was before they took over.

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1216 on: November 11, 2009, 05:53:06 PM »
There are some on here who believe that Rafa can do no wrong and H&G can do no right.  a bit of perspective wouldn't go amiss.  Rafa is a top quality manager but has got it wrong from time to time.  H&G are lying, money grabbers, but the first team is much stonger now than it was before they took over.

Nothing to do with the fact we've come in the top 4 every season bar one and gotten to the latter stages of the champions every season under Rafa? I'd argue our success under him has generated the revenue and not our owners.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 05:55:53 PM by DangerScouse »

Offline RyanBabelsFish

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1217 on: November 11, 2009, 07:21:52 PM »
Is this a good enough reason for selling him?

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=249774.0

John Arne Riise has just released a book "Fortellingen om Liverpool" (The story about Liverpool).
In the book he reveales what happened between him and Craig Bellamy that famous night in Spain.

http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/11/11/sport/john_arne_riise/craig_bellamy/liverpool/fotball/8985984/

My translation:
"Bellamy enter my bedroom at night with a golf club trying to beat me. Luckily I managed to move my legs, so I did not get any serious injuries. But when I stood up, Bellamy hit me in the knee and in the hip. I got some bruises, and got very angry. I was stronger and bigger than him, and wanted to get in a fight. But I thought about my future in the club, and choose not to get involved. Steve Finnan calms Bellamy down and suggested that Bellamy and me should finish the fight the next day. I turned up, Bellamy didn't."

Sorry if the translation is poor.

I didn't say he should or shouldn't be sold  ???

I said that it is wrong to say he was sold to fund the transfer for Torres because Ryan Babel arrived for £11.5M the same summer.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1218 on: November 11, 2009, 08:21:52 PM »
good post mate.

Mentality
------------

I've struggled to understand what Rafa wants in a players mentality. In my opinion, we have many "Champions" in our first 11, you can just see it in how they get frustrated in whats happening on the Pitch, and try to take the game into their own hands, e.g. Mascherano/Agger/Johnson driving the attack forward.

But I dont know how much of that is appreciated by Rafa, does he want those players to shoot from distance? I remember in the first Man Utd/Liverpool match he took charge of, he called Sinama-Pongolle back to stop him chasing down the goalkeeper or a lost cause, because he didnt want them to attack the position he left, compact football. I think he was playing right-midfield at the time, not sure. But that was a huge sign of how players had to give up a section of their mentality to be consumed with Rafa's ethics, tactics and beliefs.

I believe Rafa is a strict control freak, but he should be, he has huge responsibility on his shoulders, and that needs to be delegated to people/players he can trust. How much he relies on players mentalities, I dont know.

We can talk about how there is a never-give-up attitude of kuyt and a selfish attitude of torres. but when it comes to babel, I believe Rafa see's him as an injection of pace and powerful shot. But I don't know.

Great reply this, thank you.

I'm sorry I spouted about you and repeating Alan Greene in another post - that wasn't fair. You've clearly thought about whatever criticisms you may have, and were, I assume, only mentioning him because he echoed some of your own thoughts...the stuff you've written here is much more interesting and inciteful than the media usually offer. Anyway.

I think Rafa depends a lot on his players mentality, and that it's perhaps the hardest thing of all to scout for. I mean, mercurial and frustrating Garcia had it in spades, hard working honest pro Robbie Keane really didn't...was in fact a total disaster in terms of mentality. I agree that Rafa makes massive demands from his players, that some struggle to cope, and that another manager could get more out of some of these players.

When it comes to the kind of specific tactical instructions you describe, I'd ask you to bear in mind a couple of other things:

1) It may have been a way for Pongolle to conserve energy for when he really needs it, IE to make runs forward. Rafa's 'control freak' ness I would agree is true - but it doesn't just apply to defending. Torres has talked about how he gets coached in how opposition Goalkeepers like to react, so he knows with certain goalkeepers to take it round them, or to shoot to their left or whatever. He's called it 'outstanding', and really, his strike rate IE his goals-per game is completely insane. I don't think any striker in the Premiership, which used to be more 'open', has ever matched his ratio from open play - bear in mind he never takes penalties or free-kicks. Gerrard has learned to 'move less' and has scored many more goals because of it.

On the other hand, those that have it have a habit of improving hugely under Rafa. This also includes some of the very best players around, and it has always taken a great manager to not just get the best out of such players, but make them better still, better as individuals and better as part of the team. For me this outweighs the 'failures' we may have had - we have a manager consistently capable of getting the best from the best consistently.

2) Ultimately I think all top managers demand sacrifice to a certain set of 'ethics, beliefs...' Rafa is more demanding than most, but realistically we have a big financial disadvantage compared to our biggest rivals, how else can we do better unless we work harder, think smarter, have better tactics etc. We need someone in charge who is obsessed with getting all the small things right, because we don't have the big things going in our favour.

In terms of Kuyt and Torres, I think their mentality is very similar. I don't think 'selfish' or 'unselfish' is always so important - though a mix is good. I mean more like both Kuyt and Torres are constantly looking to improve, are disciplined professional athletes, are generally intelligent, level headed and very determined. It's that kind of bedrock that I think Rafa looks for.
Quote
Goals Scored / Presence of Gerrard/Torres.
-----------------------------------------------------

We've scored 27 in 12 games.

We've scored some insignificant but entertaining goals in games against:

Stoke (4-0)  - Torres/Gerrard Played.
Burnley (4-0) - Torres/Gerrard Played.
Hull (6-1) - Torres/Gerrard Played.

27 minus say, 10, thats 17 significant goals scored. Significant meaning, they've won us points/kept us in the game. In 12 games. Is that enough? if those 10 goals were shared amongst the other 9 games, we would be in a better position than we are. So the record of 27 goals in 12 games doesn't matter at all. What does matter are the amounts of chances we create, the amount of times we split open the opposition. The amount of shots taken. Look at the Birmingham game, we absolutely mullered them, but still, there wasn't enough clear cut opportunities carved out to score.

I don't think you can undervalue the impact of Torres and/or Gerrards importance in potency in attack.

I cut this a little short because I understand what you mean, it's an interesting and well made point as well. It's certainly true that goals scored alone doesn't tell the full story, but it's also important to note that even the best attacking teams ever (well, in modern days) didn't often score more than two goals in any particular game. Every now and then would be a big thumping win to get the average up, but 1-0, 2-0, 2-1 type scorelines are still the most common, even for Arsenal.

Then I'd ask you to consider that generally under Rafa, we've averaged around a clean sheet every two games, and about 3 goals against in every 4 games. So, half games clean sheets, average of 0.75 goals conceded game.

This season, we've kept one clean sheet every 4 games, with an average of 1.5 goals conceded every game.

Now, go back to your figures, or just have a think about this season - that still leaves us with scoring at least one goal in most games. In fact we've only failed to score against Chelsea and Sunderland (the latter a severely injury struck team). So even taking the 'insignificant' goals away, we're still getting that crucial one or two goals in every game.

Now, with one clean sheet in every two games, half of those games are wins straightaway, and the rest most likely draws, with maybe a win here or a loss there.
This season only one in every four of those games are a 'guaranteed' win, while only the ones we score twice in can we be reasonably confident of winning.

That's the thing with football - scoring goals is damn hard. No title, in the modern game anyway, has ever been won by a team that always needed that 2nd goal. If a top team can get a lead, it should be all over bar the shouting. If we can equalise - that should be a point most of the time.

Yet another way of looking at it - I see why you class those goals as 'insignificant', it makes sense, goals at the end of a thrashing are a bit more meaningless. But that sort of applies to the clean sheets as well - two of our clean sheets came in those three games. A clean sheet against Burnley or Stoke, while no bad thing, is certainly less valuable than a clean sheet against Spurs, for example.

I'm not saying our attack is perfect - we're not confident at the moment, and it is showing, we could and probably should have put some of these games away with a second goal. However, that's kind of the point about defending - attack is such a confidence thing that you will always have games where the second or heck even the first goal just won't come. If you keep a clean sheet you get something out of all of those games.

Finally, for Gerrard and Torres - I don't underestimate them, believe me. With them on form together we are nigh on invincible, and can beat anyone, handsomely on our day. What I mean is more that, even without them, our attack is still scoring in most games, and scoring twice in quite a few - solid defense means suddenly, we're less good without them, instead of 'relying' on them.
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Offline TSC

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1219 on: November 11, 2009, 08:36:56 PM »
I think Rafa depends a lot on his players mentality, and that it's perhaps the hardest thing of all to scout for. I mean, mercurial and frustrating Garcia had it in spades, hard working honest pro Robbie Keane really didn't...was in fact a total disaster in terms of mentality. 

On what basis do you question Keane's 'mentality'?  On the basis he was bombed out by Rafa half way through his first season to be replaced by no-one?  Sorry, but fail to see how you can question his mentality.  Yep he didn't shine as most would've hoped.  But you can't question his obvious enthusiasm to play for Liverpool.  He did have a few good games and scored a few goals by the way.

Worse players than Keane have been given much longer than half a season to prove themselves and have failed miserably.  Would you rather have Voronin than Keane?

Anyway, Liverpool existed long before both owners and manager, and will continue to do so in some shape or form when they've long departed for pastures new.

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1220 on: November 11, 2009, 08:38:50 PM »
do we know keane wasnt sold  against rafas wishes?
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Offline Marko B

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1221 on: November 11, 2009, 08:42:29 PM »
There are some on here who believe that Rafa can do no wrong and H&G can do no right.  a bit of perspective wouldn't go amiss.  Rafa is a top quality manager but has got it wrong from time to time.  H&G are lying, money grabbers, but the first team is much stonger now than it was before they took over.

But a statement like that needs to be put into context. So are our competitors and the league as a whole. 

It's like trying to say you're better off with your money in a bank account that's earning 2% because you are earning something on that money when in reality you're only keeping pace with inflation and in real terms are no better off at all.
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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1222 on: November 11, 2009, 09:22:37 PM »
On what basis do you question Keane's 'mentality'?  On the basis he was bombed out by Rafa half way through his first season to be replaced by no-one?  Sorry, but fail to see how you can question his mentality.  Yep he didn't shine as most would've hoped.  But you can't question his obvious enthusiasm to play for Liverpool.  He did have a few good games and scored a few goals by the way.

Worse players than Keane have been given much longer than half a season to prove themselves and have failed miserably.  Would you rather have Voronin than Keane?

Anyway, Liverpool existed long before both owners and manager, and will continue to do so in some shape or form when they've long departed for pastures new.
It's pretty well known that Keane didn't understand what was asked of him positionally and moaned continually. Bad apple.
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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1223 on: November 11, 2009, 09:43:27 PM »
On what basis do you question Keane's 'mentality'?  On the basis he was bombed out by Rafa half way through his first season to be replaced by no-one?  Sorry, but fail to see how you can question his mentality.  Yep he didn't shine as most would've hoped.  But you can't question his obvious enthusiasm to play for Liverpool.  He did have a few good games and scored a few goals by the way.

Worse players than Keane have been given much longer than half a season to prove themselves and have failed miserably.  Would you rather have Voronin than Keane?

Anyway, Liverpool existed long before both owners and manager, and will continue to do so in some shape or form when they've long departed for pastures new.

maybe if he hadn't slagged of the club and the manager, and been a disruption in the dressing room and moaned all the time on the pitch, and scored some of the sitters he missed he would still be here, everybody wanted Keane to succeed but he just wasn't good enough on and off the pitch!

You are right about one thing though nobody is bigger than this club!
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Offline TSC

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1224 on: November 11, 2009, 09:53:20 PM »
maybe if he hadn't slagged of the club and the manager, and been a disruption in the dressing room and moaned all the time on the pitch,

Are you saying he done all of this while he was here?  I'll give you 'moaning' on the pitch.  Bellamy used to do it all the time - still does.  That type of player. 

Honestly don't rem any reliable sources where he criticised the club, manager and disrupted the dressing room while he was here.  Doubt the likes of Carra and Gerrard would've let it happen.  It was Robbie Keane don't forget, not Roy Keane.

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1225 on: November 11, 2009, 10:00:07 PM »
got some mates on the inside of the club, youth level, that stated he was a moaning git in the dressing room especially with the younger players, we all liked Keane he was one of us, but it didn't work out in the same way as Shit Happens! So we need to move on and not try to use this as a another stick to beat Rafa with, leave that to the crap media!
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Offline Dubit10

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1226 on: November 11, 2009, 10:02:39 PM »
got some mates on the inside of the club, youth level, that stated he was a moaning git in the dressing room especially with the younger players, we all liked Keane he was one of us, but it didn't work out in the same way as Shit Happens! So we need to move on and not try to use this as a another stick to beat Rafa with, leave that to the crap media!
Heard much of the same thing from this side of the water. The lad is a well known knob who think's the world revolves around him. Glad he's gone to be honest.

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1227 on: November 11, 2009, 10:03:10 PM »
It's pretty well known that Keane didn't understand what was asked of him positionally and moaned continually. Bad apple.

What was this well known thing that was asked of him which he didn't understand?  Anyway, he didn't set the world alight but may have done a job these last few weeks. 

Anyway, enough of Keane.  Who knows what really went on? - just a strange episode which prob had more to do with internal political fisticuffs than anything else.

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1228 on: November 11, 2009, 10:26:23 PM »
What was this well known thing that was asked of him which he didn't understand?  Anyway, he didn't set the world alight but may have done a job these last few weeks. 

Anyway, enough of Keane.  Who knows what really went on? - just a strange episode which prob had more to do with internal political fisticuffs than anything else.

Haven't read all posts here thoroughly, but I think what they cite here was in the Meeting Benítez Tomkins piece:
"He tells various stories of players who, despite big reputations, surprised senior Reds by their lack of understanding of what they were asked to do." - Most likely that's a reference to Keane. Or maybe not.

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1229 on: November 11, 2009, 10:51:53 PM »
Haven't read all posts here thoroughly, but I think what they cite here was in the Meeting Benítez Tomkins piece:
"He tells various stories of players who, despite big reputations, surprised senior Reds by their lack of understanding of what they were asked to do." - Most likely that's a reference to Keane. Or maybe not.
It almost certainly is.
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Offline t0m

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1230 on: November 11, 2009, 11:02:48 PM »
The thing i don't get is him, u can read mangers most off the time but with Rafa your like whats he going to do now? Hes bought some shit players yes, and bought alot off great talent to this team. should we change the manger spend 20mill for him to go and have less money in January.... not sure. we clearly need a striker so he buys Keane he scores 2 and then think nah i wont play him. injures dont help at the moment which i think is keeping him untouchable at the moment... i dont no im confussed
we need depth we dont have it everyone can see this. rafa needs to listen to the fans now and then.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 11:04:33 PM by t0m »

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1231 on: November 11, 2009, 11:11:50 PM »
The thing i don't get is him, u can read mangers most off the time but with Rafa your like whats he going to do now?

That's a bad thing? You're wanting a predictable manager that you can read, just as the opposition will be able to read.

Quote
Hes bought some shit players yes,

Name three players that have been market value for a club our size and for their position that have been relative failures. I say name three because I'll give you Dossena £7mil and Keane £20mil, name just one more!

Quote
and bought alot off great talent to this team. should we change the manger spend 20mill for him to go and have less money in January.... not sure.

give Benitez £20mil pay off and you expect us to have money is January, do you expect that we'll even have money to spend in January?

Quote
we clearly need a striker so he buys Keane he scores 2 and then think nah i wont play him.

Yeah that's right, plays him for practically the entire first half of the season until January. One thing you should know from Benitez by now is that he keeps faith with his strikers when they're not scoring.

Quote
injures dont help at the moment which i think is keeping him untouchable at the moment... i dont no im confussed

He's not untouchable at all, I just can't for the life of me see what he's done this season to justify the criticism he's received.
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Offline Damo58

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1232 on: November 11, 2009, 11:48:45 PM »
Didn't want to start a new thread so I'll stick this in here. I've got a mate who is a blue and he confessed to me that he is terrified of the thought of what our team, potentially, could be. He said to me that our fans our mad to even think about Rafa getting the sack because we are in a transition period.

Even though its years into his reign Rafa is on the brink of a brilliant team (his words not mine).

He said if we went to a formation which was more of a diamond, ergo...

                     Mascherano
       Aquilani                  Benayoun
                        Gerrard
 Kuyt/New signing
                             Torres


Who am I to argue, that looks pretty promising.

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1233 on: November 11, 2009, 11:59:41 PM »
Name three players that have been market value for a club our size and for their position that have been relative failures. I say name three because I'll give you Dossena £7mil and Keane £20mil, name just one more!

Morientes, Pennant and Babel. So basically, Rafa has 5 significant (5+ million) flops in 5 seasons with LFC. Not the best, but also not the worst record out there.
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Offline horne

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1234 on: November 12, 2009, 12:02:34 AM »
Didn't want to start a new thread so I'll stick this in here. I've got a mate who is a blue and he confessed to me that he is terrified of the thought of what our team, potentially, could be. He said to me that our fans our mad to even think about Rafa getting the sack because we are in a transition period.

Even though its years into his reign Rafa is on the brink of a brilliant team (his words not mine).

He said if we went to a formation which was more of a diamond, ergo...

                     Mascherano
       Aquilani                  Benayoun
                        Gerrard
 Kuyt/New signing
                             Torres


Who am I to argue, that looks pretty promising.

its a good point this you know...sometimes you take your players for granted and it takes someone who isnt as emotionally involved to see what we really have got!

i have a similar view with everton.they have had some good performing players over the years and its amazing sometimes to hear blues slagging off some of theirs who i think have been performing.
you have to stand back sometimes,strip away the emotion and try and see it as it is.

everyone of our players ,if they were at other clubs ,would probably catch your eye?
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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1235 on: November 12, 2009, 12:14:47 AM »
Morientes, Pennant and Babel. So basically, Rafa has 5 significant (5+ million) flops in 5 seasons with LFC. Not the best, but also not the worst record out there.

So 5+ million is now considered significant money for a player in this current climate? Really?

What's next, we'll start beating him with signing free players as they're not up to the highest standard set by our rivals who spunk 20, 30 million on their players?
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Offline Aquilani

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1236 on: November 12, 2009, 02:36:10 AM »
Is this a good enough reason for selling him?

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=249774.0

John Arne Riise has just released a book "Fortellingen om Liverpool" (The story about Liverpool).
In the book he reveales what happened between him and Craig Bellamy that famous night in Spain.

http://www.dagbladet.no/2009/11/11/sport/john_arne_riise/craig_bellamy/liverpool/fotball/8985984/

My translation:
"Bellamy enter my bedroom at night with a golf club trying to beat me. Luckily I managed to move my legs, so I did not get any serious injuries. But when I stood up, Bellamy hit me in the knee and in the hip. I got some bruises, and got very angry. I was stronger and bigger than him, and wanted to get in a fight. But I thought about my future in the club, and choose not to get involved. Steve Finnan calms Bellamy down and suggested that Bellamy and me should finish the fight the next day. I turned up, Bellamy didn't."

Sorry if the translation is poor.

then we should sell Carragher too  :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKuDqxlE0Vo

Offline bigbear

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1237 on: November 12, 2009, 04:12:44 AM »
So 5+ million is now considered significant money for a player in this current climate? Really?

What's next, we'll start beating him with signing free players as they're not up to the highest standard set by our rivals who spunk 20, 30 million on their players?
I think the only major flop has been Keane. That was big money and whether it was Rafa or Parry who signed him it was a bad signing. Rafa quickly cut our losses on that one and irrespective of what's said anywhere, selling Keane was one of the best decisions of the entire Benitez reign.

His demeanour was starting to have an impact on the side as well as his lack of movement or acceptance of his role in the scheme of things when you play next to top class stars like Gerrard and Torres.

Morientes was signed for 6m, sold for 3.5m and played a good part in us winning the Cup in 2006 including a very good performance in the final. Yes he didn't pull up any trees but I wouldn't consider him to be a massive mistake.

Pennant was signed because we needed a winger and couldn't afford a decent one !! I was never a massive fan of his but for what we paid for him there were not hugely better alternatives elsewhere. He made a good contribution to getting to the 2007 final playing well in the semi at home and got good reviews in the final though for me his final ball probably cost us !

Dossena at 7m has been usurped by Insua, a young player that Rafa has invested faith in so if Dossena has lost value, Insua's increase in value has more than made up for that.


Over his 5 years Rafa has tried to build a squad with his top players and expensive signings (Alonso/Mascherano/Torres/Keane/Johnson/Kuyt/Aquilani)
whilst gambling on some middle of the range signings (Reina/Agger/Skrtel/Riera/Morientes/Pennant/Dossena/Bellamy/Crouch/Garcia/Lucas/Babel) in the hope that some would become big players and some would do a job and fill a hole in the squad until he could trade them on.

He's also used cheap/free transfers to cover an obvious weakness in the squad bt within his budget again until he could afford better or they could prove to be useful squad members (Aurelio/Arbeloa/Voronin/Krygiakos/Nunez/Kromkamp/Josemi/Pelligrini). Again mixed success but some good players from within there for us.

Clearly as you would expect, the success rate decreases with the value but someone like Pelligrini was never bought to be a legend, just to save Sami's legs which worked in spring 2005 as I recall.

On top of the senior players he has invested small amounts in the likes of Ngog/Insua/Palletta/Barragan/Hobbs/Anderson as well as a lot of signing on fees/wages for Pacheco/Amoo/Huth/San Jose/Roque/DeLa Valle/Mavinga/Flora/Nemeth and his mates etc etc and there are reasonable signs there that we are gettig one or two good players through for this investment in youth.

At this moment in time we could if we wished probably sell Insua (5-7m), Ngog (5-7m), DeLa Valle (3-4m), Nemeth (3-4m), Pacheco/Amoo (? but both very very promising kids) so there is an increased value there and the prices are probably not far off if not low.

When you consider the added value Rafa has brought to the squad as a whole, i would say his transfer dealings have been a huge success.



Offline FOOT

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1238 on: November 12, 2009, 10:48:06 AM »
Not sure about his background - but anything slightly possitive in the meadia at the moment will do me.



The truth behind Benitez
By Norman Hubbard

November 12, 2009
 
 He has won the Champions League, but only one of his last nine fixtures. He still appears adored by many on the Kop, but is derided by still more on messageboards and phone-ins. He is one of the most divisive figures in football. But how many of the criticisms commonly levelled at Rafa Benitez stand up to analysis?

1. Benitez practises a rotation policy

Once this was unarguable. The 2-0 win against Fulham in November 2007 was the first time in exactly 100 games that the Liverpool manager named an unchanged team. Now, however, the picture is very different. Jose Reina, Lucas Leiva and Dirk Kuyt have started every Premier League game this season. Emiliano Insua has only missed one. Glen Johnson and Jamie Carragher were ever-presents until injury and suspension respectively ended their runs in the team. And few question the places occupied by Steven Gerrard and Fernando Torres in the manager's plans.

2. Benitez prioritises Europe over the Premier League

It was an allegation voiced by the former Liverpool midfielder Ronnie Whelan recently. It is another that had some truth initially. In the last 18 months, however, there can be little doubt that Benitez's views have changed and there is a recognition that his reputation depends in part upon winning the Premier League. The weakest side he has fielded this season, at Fulham, had far less to do with the proximity of the trip to Lyon than injuries and illness that ruled out Gerrard, Johnson, Daniel Agger, Martin Skrtel, Albert Riera, Fabio Aurelio, Alberto Aquilani and Martin Kelly.

3. He has signed a lot of players and too few have succeeded

That is definitely true. In total, 76 have arrived at Anfield during his five-and-a-half years at the helm. Of those, 38 - in this observer's estimation - were not initially signed as first team players. A few, such as Insua, have become regulars; others - Dani Pacheco, Krisztian Nemeth, Daniel Sanchez Ayala, Mikel San Jose, Peter Gulacsi - are sufficiently young that they may yet emulate the Argentine. Many more of those 38, however, have already left Anfield, often as anonymous as when they arrived (Godwin Antwi and Besian Idrizaj, for instance).

The other 38 include 19 members of the current first team squad. Of those who have come and gone, five - Xabi Alonso, Luis Garcia, Alvaro Arbeloa, Momo Sissoko and Peter Crouch - justify being called successes. A further four - Scott Carson, Robbie Fowler, Craig Bellamy and Jermaine Pennant - produced mixed returns. The remaining 10 - Antonio Nunez, Josemi, Fernando Morientes, Mauricio Pellegrino, Bolo Zenden, Jan Kromkamp, Mark Gonzalez, Gabriel Paletta, Sebastian Leto and Robbie Keane - can safely be said to have failed. However, Benitez is entitled to argue that he made profits on several and that only Keane and Morientes ranked as expensive additions.

4. He has spent a lot of money

In the wider scheme of things, that is certainly correct. A total of £229 million is certainly substantial. It is, however, less than Manchester City's outlay in the last three transfer windows and little more than Chelsea's expenditure in the first 13 months after Roman Abramovich's takeover. It also excludes the money raised by selling players: around £118 million, meaning that, in six summers, his average spend is under £20 million. Whatever George Gillett and Tom Hicks insist, Benitez made a £12 million profit in January while his summer dealings only cost £2 million after the proceeds of the sales. In assessing the biggest buys, there is invariably the question of where the line is drawn, but of the 10 costliest, two - Aquilani and Johnson - are too soon into their Anfield careers to assess; three - Keane, Ryan Babel and Andrea Dossena - have disappointed; and five - Torres, Mascherano, Alonso, Crouch and Kuyt - have flourished.

5. Liverpool haven't improved under Benitez

Benitez is entitled to argue that he started from a lower base than their three principal rivals. In Gerard Houllier's final season, 2003-04, Liverpool amassed 60 points (30 fewer than Arsenal, 19 less than Chelsea and putting them 15 behind Manchester United). In Benitez's first year, they took 58 (37 behind Chelsea, 25 less than Arsenal and leaving them 19 adrift of Manchester United). It supports the argument that he inherited a substandard squad overloaded with deadwood. Last season, Liverpool ended with 86 points. That indicates a considerable improvement. However, with 19 points from 12 games thus far this campaign, they are only on course for 60. Does that mean they have progressed and then regressed?

6. Benitez fails as a man-manager

Separately, Torres, Gerrard and Carragher have all said that they struggle to think of conversations with Benitez that weren't about football. It suggests he is only interested in footballers as players, rather than as people. Alonso's departure this year can certainly be attributed to Benitez's attitude during his attempts to sell his fellow Spaniard the previous summer. Yet if Benitez's methods do not make him the next Harry Redknapp, the moaners have generally been those who did not feature regularly and many of his players, past and present, have produced the best form of their careers under him. And they include, in Gerrard, Torres, Carragher, Alonso, Reina and Mascherano, the leading players at Anfield in that time.

7. His interference harms players

It was a complaint voiced by Pennant, who said he was frustrated by his manager's continual presence on the touchline, forever conveying orders. Benitez could respond that his attention to detail has been responsible for some of his tactical triumphs and that tinkering with his players' positions has had benefits. Under Houllier, Carragher was normally deployed at full-back and Gerrard was sometimes the deepest man in midfield. Converting both to new roles has been justified.

8. He is a poor judge of a striker

It is an argument that gathers weight every time Andriy Voronin is on the pitch and one that is used against Benitez whenever Crouch, Keane or Bellamy scores. Nevertheless, it is worth remembering that the two Tottenham forwards made their exit in part because the success of the Gerrard-Torres axis limited their opportunities, a fate that might have befallen Michael Owen had Benitez opted to bring him back to Anfield. Bellamy's exit, which has been lamented rather more in the past two months than during the previous two years, helped finance the signing of Torres. While there have been striking failures, notably Morientes, Benitez moved for Torres when others appeared unsure of his quality.

9. His is a two-man team

Liverpool did beat Manchester United 14 months ago in a match that neither Gerrard nor Torres started, but they slumped more recently at Sunderland when both were absent. Players of the calibre of Carragher, Kuyt, Reina and Mascherano could dispute that oft-heard analysis. What may be truer to say is that when Liverpool's captain and top scorer are missing, there is a reliance on Yossi Benayoun for invention. And what is probable is that most teams, to some degree or another, are dependent upon their two premier attacking talents.

10. Benitez is a defensive manager

It is another one to irritate the Liverpool manager. His preference for two holding midfielders, which was apparent from his time in Spain, is well known and helps account for Gerrard's berth further forward. But whereas there was a time when Liverpool were far from prolific - they only mustered 57 league goals in the 2006-07 campaign, for instance - they outscored Manchester United, Chelsea and Arsenal to end up with 90 last year.

11. The team miss Xabi Alonso

Gerrard has admitted it and few would dispute it. But until Aquilani is available on a regular basis, it remains to be seen just how much Liverpool will miss the Basque playmaker in the long term.



http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=697392&sec=england&root=england&cc=5739

« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 10:51:22 AM by FOOT »
THE TRUTH?

Lord Justice Taylor's official inquiry into the disaster disparaged The Sun's story and was unequivocal as to the disaster's cause:

The Taylor Report stated that official cause of the disaster was the failure of police control.

Offline The G in Gerrard

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Re: Are there any intelligent reds who want Rafa out?
« Reply #1239 on: November 12, 2009, 11:22:16 AM »
^^ Number 4 is so depressing