Topic: Tottenham

[Red Viper]

first point: same applies for Sandro, neither are at the moment.

second point: Cambiasso, Vidal, Vukojevic, Nocerino, Fabregas, Mascherano,Rakitic, Alonso, Lucho, Schweingster, Luiz Gustavo, Yaya Toure, De Jong, Sahin, Gargano, De Rossi, Pizarro, Thiago Motta et al (could name another 20)

Josue, Senna, Juninho all got old and 'lost it' to a degree, thats why the Brazil side is full of relatively unproven players, Oscar, Ganso, Luca Moura, et al - Lucas being one of the most experienced and playing in the middle of the park, is why he is an 'obvious' choice as a captian.

He is such a modern midfielder (Lucas) its hard to compare him to other players - but he isn't in a league of his own by any means and won't go down as anything spectacular in 10-20 years time, but he is a very efficient, effective, clever footballer who i'm now grateful to have at our club

Are you joking? Ignoring the fact that half of those players don't play as a DM, that list is still ridiculous.

[Coolie High]

Lucas isn't the best dm in the world, Cambiasso, Mascherano, De Jong, Busquets in my opinion are better, then you've got the likes of Parker Sandro Vidal who are around the same level.

[Coolie High]

Can we say we're better than Stoke and Sunderland?

Did they beat us by 4 goals?

[Aido LFC]

Lucas isn't the best dm in the world, Cambiasso, Mascherano, De Jong, Busquets in my opinion are better, then you've got the likes of Parker Sandro Vidal who are around the same level.

Nobody said he was the best in the world.

[C]

Are you joking? Ignoring the fact that half of those players don't play as a DM, that list is still ridiculous.

but they could do the floating around midfield, not really a good enough defensive midfielder to be relied apon by themselve role, but can use the ball in a deep position role.

Mascherano, Essien, Toure at Barca, are proper defensive midfielders, Lucas is a deep lying midfielder

[Juan Loco]

Did they beat us by 4 goals?

One of them did beat us, yes. Or does it have to be by a particular margin before one league game in September takes on such importance.

Or, to put it in parlance you might better understand:

Stoke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liverpool
Spurs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liverpool
Liverpool >< Sunderland

[Discipline]

One of them did beat us, yes. Or does it have to be by a particular margin before one league game in September takes on such importance.

Or, to put it in parlance you might better understand:

Stoke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liverpool
Spurs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liverpool
Liverpool >< Sunderland

lol

[Grobbelrevell]

Tommy doesn’t act like a twat and he seems to take defeats with pretty good grace and doesn’t go over the top when they do beat us. He’s going to be biased towards his team and players and maybe not know the strengths and weaknesses of all our players in as much detail as us as he won’t watch them as much. Spurs have had a decent recent record over us so maybe he’s not seen Lucas at it his best although I’m sure he starred when we beat them 2-0 in Rafa’s last season.

All in all I don’t agree with all the points he makes but he comes across as a good lad (for a Chaz n Dave loving cockernee). Don’t think he’s a big fan of Arry either. I know you weren’t arguing otherwise but I think it's good to get opinions from non Liverpool fans at times as long as they’re clearly not on a piss take.

Fair summary.

There are one or two other supporters from other clubs on here that are decent contributors as well and not only in threads directly relating to their own clubs. It's nice to see that, to be honest.

As far as comparing Lucas with the other defensive midfielders in the Premier League, I guess the first thing to do would be to draw up a list of those in question:

Tiote
Mikel
Essien
Sandro
Parker
Barry
De Jong
Hargreaves
Fletcher
Song
Denilson
Reo-Coker
Palacios
Petrov

I'm sure there's some i've missed and others may well disagree on the clasification of 'defensive midfielder' for some, but these are who I can think of from the top of my head that play a similar role to Lucas. Taking into account previous performances, current form and injuries, I would argue that there is only one player from that list who could sit alongside Lucas and that would be Scott Parker.

Two seasons ago Essien would have been way out in front but a combination of injuries and loss of form mean that he wouldn't make the top three or four as things stand.

De Jong (and Hargreaves) is similar to that in relation to the injury situation. When fit he's a very effective defensive midfielder, although probably closer to Mascherano in style than Lucas.

And then there's two further players who some might include in the list, in Diaby and Yaya Toure. I rate Diaby, although he seems to lack consistency. Toure on the other hand, is a class act and if he were to be classed as a defensive midfielder (he's played the role in the past), then he would be ahead of Lucas for me without a doubt. And that's no slight on Lucas, rather is purely representative of the fact that Toure is a top, top class player. Lucas is not quite at that level. Yet.

As for Sandro? Well when I have seen him (admittedly fleetingly) he's looked solid. I can't say he's looked that much more than that but i'm happy to concede that I don't watch him quite so intently as I do Lucas, for obvious reasons. From the times I have seen him though, i'd say he was one of a clutch of good players in this position currently plying their trade in England, alongside someone like Tiote, who I also think has potential to progress. Sandro and indeed Tiote may well do that but it's hard to start claiming brilliance after a handful of games, to be honest.

So, you might argue i'm bias, but it's Lucas for me.

And to quickly shoot those shouts down - alongside Parker.

[C]

Out and out ball winning, defensive midfielder - De Jong is on another level to Lucas, in that respect.

[Red Genius]

Out and out ball winning, defensive midfielder - De Jong is on another level to Lucas, in that respect.

I know its all about opinions, but the facts wouldn't support that - as mentioned earlier in the thread Lucas made the most tackles last year which would be a pretty good indicator for any ball winning midfielder, his distribution pass completion % was also very impressive.

[Cid]

I know its all about opinions, but the facts wouldn't support that - as mentioned earlier in the thread Lucas made the most tackles last year which would be a pretty good indicator for any ball winning midfielder, his distribution pass completion % was also very impressive.

Doesn't mean a lot.  We barely even tried to keep possession under hodge so we simply had more tackles to be made.

[koppitekop11]

Dont think its fair to compare Lucas to anyone abroad. Busquets for example, yeah hes a good player but how much defending does he actually have to do? He maybe makes a handful of tackles a game (especially at home) whereas Lucas is always making tackles/interceptions - not because we are constantly under the kosh, just because the nature of our league is much quicker and more end-to-end.

[Red Genius]

Doesn't mean a lot.  We barely even tried to keep possession under hodge so we simply had more tackles to be made.

I appreciate that mate, as i said its all about opinions rather than fact. However a ball winning midfielder who is making lots of tackles is better than a ball winning midfielder who isn't.... the volume of tackles obviously depends on how many opportunities the player has to make a challenge.

I still feel that stats can be a useful indicator if not taken in isolation, but i take your point.

[Red Viper]

Out and out ball winning, defensive midfielder - De Jong is on another level to Lucas, in that respect.

Not that I disagree with you, but that's not what the stats of the last couple of seasons suggest.

[Discipline]

Doesn't mean a lot.  We barely even tried to keep possession under hodge so we simply had more tackles to be made.

He's leading this years too.

[El_Pistolero]

Lucas isn't the best dm in the world, Cambiasso, Mascherano, De Jong, Busquets in my opinion are better, then you've got the likes of Parker Sandro Vidal who are around the same level.

[Coolie High]

One of them did beat us, yes. Or does it have to be by a particular margin before one league game in September takes on such importance.

Or, to put it in parlance you might better understand:

Stoke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liverpool
Spurs >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Liverpool
Liverpool >< Sunderland

lol i love your humour.

[Coolie High]

Parker is as good as Lucas, i don't know why its even a laughable opinion, care to explain?

[El_Pistolero]

Maybe i shouldn't have included Parker as he isn't a cut n throat defensive midfielder like Lucas, but seriously there isn't much that separates them.

I like Parker, think he's a very good player who will, unfortunately, do well with Spurs. But he's no where near as good as Lucas.

[Mr Dilkington]

I'm a big fan of Sandro myself, but he's still very raw and can't be put anywhere near the level Lucas is currently at.

Hell, you only have to look at who Menezes picks to anchor his midfield for Brazil for a clue.

Will he be better in the future? I'm not sure, but right now it's waste of time debating it.

Back on subject, i think Spurs will be our biggest rivals for fourth but they've got too many players who are too quick to throw the toys out of the pram when things aren't going well. Expect Adebayor to stop caring soon and when he does watch the goals Defoe is currently getting dry up.

Oh, and Ledley King is fit at the moment, which helps.

[Coolie High]

Fair summary.

There are one or two other supporters from other clubs on here that are decent contributors as well and not only in threads directly relating to their own clubs. It's nice to see that, to be honest.

As far as comparing Lucas with the other defensive midfielders in the Premier League, I guess the first thing to do would be to draw up a list of those in question:

Tiote
Mikel
Essien
Sandro
Parker
Barry
De Jong
Hargreaves
Fletcher
Song
Denilson
Reo-Coker
Palacios
Petrov

I'm sure there's some i've missed and others may well disagree on the clasification of 'defensive midfielder' for some, but these are who I can think of from the top of my head that play a similar role to Lucas. Taking into account previous performances, current form and injuries, I would argue that there is only one player from that list who could sit alongside Lucas and that would be Scott Parker.

Two seasons ago Essien would have been way out in front but a combination of injuries and loss of form mean that he wouldn't make the top three or four as things stand.

De Jong (and Hargreaves) is similar to that in relation to the injury situation. When fit he's a very effective defensive midfielder, although probably closer to Mascherano in style than Lucas.

And then there's two further players who some might include in the list, in Diaby and Yaya Toure. I rate Diaby, although he seems to lack consistency. Toure on the other hand, is a class act and if he were to be classed as a defensive midfielder (he's played the role in the past), then he would be ahead of Lucas for me without a doubt. And that's no slight on Lucas, rather is purely representative of the fact that Toure is a top, top class player. Lucas is not quite at that level. Yet.

As for Sandro? Well when I have seen him (admittedly fleetingly) he's looked solid. I can't say he's looked that much more than that but i'm happy to concede that I don't watch him quite so intently as I do Lucas, for obvious reasons. From the times I have seen him though, i'd say he was one of a clutch of good players in this position currently plying their trade in England, alongside someone like Tiote, who I also think has potential to progress. Sandro and indeed Tiote may well do that but it's hard to start claiming brilliance after a handful of games, to be honest.

So, you might argue i'm bias, but it's Lucas for me.

And to quickly shoot those shouts down - alongside Parker.

You forgot Mulumbu, who last season was up there with the best in the league.

[Coolie High]

I like Parker, think he's a very good player who will, unfortunately, do well with Spurs. But he's no where near as good as Lucas.

I don't think so, i feel defensive midfield is one of those positions where there isn't a huge gap between the likes of Cambiasso, Masch and Lucas Sandro etc. Parker has proved to us on many occasions how good he is, last season for a struggling West Ham team he completely dominated our midfield, he is a quality player and on the same level as Lucas to me, although i expect Lucas to push on in the next couple of years and become the best in the world.

[Crosby Nick]

Oh, and Ledley King is fit at the moment, which helps.

That was my main point yesterday (or 20 pages back!).

What will Redknapp do when they qualify for the knockout stages of the Europa? Keep playing the kids or will he take it seriously then? Hopefully could have an impact on their League form after Christmas.

[GoodStuff]

I love Lucas and hes a definite starter for us. But if i could choose who to have in our 11, disregarding age. it would be Parker for sure. Better going forward, stronger on the ball, quicker, tougher tackling, better overall passer. If Lucas can become as good as Parker i'd be delighted. And i doubt neutrals who watch the premier league will prefer Lucas to Parker, though most now appreciate that Lucas is a qality player.

[Phil M]

Better going forward, stronger on the ball, quicker, tougher tackling, better overall passer.

Any evidence/examples/stats to support or back that up?

[ThepepeReina]

Fuck me, thought i had come in the spurs thread, but i have somehow mysteriously found myself in the who is better than lucas thread.

[ThepepeReina]

Any evidence/examples/stats to support or back that up?

End of the day footballs about opinions. If thats what he thinks he shouldnt need to back it up in any way shape or form. Even if it is clearly wrong.

[Phil M]

End of the day footballs about opinions. If thats what he thinks he shouldnt need to back it up in any way shape or form. Even if it is clearly wrong.

True but he posts everything in a matter of fact style when as you say it's clearly wrong to everyone else, well almost everybody else.

[Saint Kopite]

Lucas is better than Sando.

But Sandro himself is quite good. However, Sandro needs to play under a manager who can make him a better player and coach his weaknesses not a clown like 'Arry.

[Zlen]

So we should have taken Parker over Adam and universe would sing of our balance and finesse.
We would be amazing - Tottenham like even.

[ThepepeReina]

True but he posts everything in a matter of fact style when as you say it's clearly wrong to everyone else, well almost everybody else.

Thats the thing though, everyone who has an opinion is certain theirs is the correct one. Its why football is so interesting, everone know they are correct, but of course not everyone can be!

[KennyDaggers]

Fellaini looked the player Gollum and all Everton fans proclaim him to be at the weekend, I thought he was excellent.

Whilst I believe Parker is the best defensive midfielder in the league. Just because a manager reckons your good enough to play for the worst Brazil side I can remember in my lifetime, it does not make you world class. Lucas has improved a lot, he had to but there's quite a lot of players I'd want us to sign before him if money was no object. I think the lauding of Lucas shows how much our standards have been lowered.

[ThepepeReina]

Fellaini looked the player Gollum and all Everton fans proclaim him to be at the weekend, I thought he was excellent.

I cant remember him heavily influencing the game at all if im honest. Put a very bad tackle in on lucas so i suppose he did what he's good at there.

[Saint Kopite]

Fellaini looked the player Gollum and all Everton fans proclaim him to be at the weekend, I thought he was excellent.

Whilst I believe Parker is the best defensive midfielder in the league. Just because a manager reckons your good enough to play for the worst Brazil side I can remember in my lifetime, it does not make you world class. Lucas has improved a lot, he had to but there's quite a lot of players I'd want us to sign before him if money was no object. I think the lauding of Lucas shows how much our standards have been lowered.

I thought Fellaini was very average.

The only BRILLIANT game I've seen of Fellaini was that performance against Man City where Robinho got substituted after he came on as a sub.

[Phil M]

Thats the thing though, everyone who has an opinion is certain theirs is the correct one. Its why football is so interesting, everone know they are correct, but of course not everyone can be!

Some people refuse to see other people points of view because they're so clouded by their own judgement.
I wouldn't mind but Jay Spearing is better than all of them put together.

[ThepepeReina]

Some people refuse to see other people points of view because they're so clouded by their own judgement.
I wouldn't mind but Jay Spearing is better than all of them put together.

[KennyDaggers]

I thought Fellaini was very average.

The only BRILLIANT game I've seen of Fellaini was that performance against Man City where Robinho got substituted after he came on as a sub.

At least one of The Sunday Papers I read gave him mom, The Echo gave him Everton's mom, Stan Collymore said he was "Outstanding" on Talksport and I agreed with him. I came away from the game thinking he looked very good and those reports I mentioned just reiterated what I seen.

[koppitekop11]

Just because a manager reckons your good enough to play for the worst Brazil side I can remember in my lifetime, it does not make you world class. Lucas has improved a lot, he had to but there's quite a lot of players I'd want us to sign before him if money was no object. I think the lauding of Lucas shows how much our standards have been lowered.

 

[ThepepeReina]

Wel if stan collymore said it, it must be true. Everyone knows he never chats shit and knows the game inside out.

[Camarero25]

At least one of The Sunday Papers I read gave him mom, The Echo gave him Everton's mom, Stan Collymore said he was "Outstanding" on Talksport and I agreed with him. I came away from the game thinking he looked very good and those reports I mentioned just reiterated what I seen.

Stan Collymore agrees with you, end of debate. Well played good sir.