Author Topic: Sordid reality behind Dubai's gilded facade (not strictly football related)  (Read 4544 times)

Offline Consigliere

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Not sure this is quite the right place but nonetheless an interesting article about some disturbing aspects of Dubai. Can't say that I'm as enthusiastic about DIC as I once was....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6716543.ece


Offline The_Last_Don

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And you think the US are any better? 

There has been a constant barrage of Dubai bashing articles, there are enought problems at hand in the UK yet a journo wants to write 5/6 pages worth on Dubai, why do you think that is? why the scaremongering?

This topic has been discussed to death, i could comment more but i choose not to.  For people to understand what  the UAE/Dubai is and what it has to offer they need to be here.


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I think you need to be wary of forming judgements on places based upon a journalists article especially when he is clearly writing to an agenda. All major cities in the world suffer from various undesirable problems and it is easy to just focus on those rather than look at the whole picture.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/sultan-sooud-al-qassemi-if-you-think-dubai-is-bad-just-look-at-your-own-country-1666748.html

Sultan Sooud Al Qassemi: If you think Dubai is bad, just look at your own country

Say that I’d written that in first world Britain there are 380,00 homeless

Friday, 10 April 2009



I recently figured that if British journalists such as Johann Hari (Tuesday, 7 April) who come to Dubai don't send back something sensationalist it won't get printed and they won't get paid. After all, sleaze sells.

I called a British journalist friend of mine and said: "I'm going to write an article about London, the same way your compatriots write about Dubai." By the time I was back at home I had come to my senses, it's not fair to London, a city so dear to my heart, or Londoners to be judged by the actions of a few. It's easy to generalise about a country when figures are manipulated to sensationalise and sell papers.

Say for example that I had written an article that states that, in wealthy first world Britain there are 380,000 homeless people, many of them mentally ill, starving and abandoned in sub-zero temperatures to live on the streets.

Say then that I wrote an article that states that Britain, the so called "jail capital of Western Europe" sentenced in 2006 alone a staggering additional 12,000 women to prison and that up to seven babies a month are born in jail where they spend their crucial first months.

I could have written an article that stated Britain, victor in the Second World War, had given refuge to 400 Nazi war criminals, with all but one of them getting away with it. Or one stating that the number of Indians who died while serving the British Empire, to build your Tube and grow your tea, is so large it is simply unquantifiable by any historian.

Or say I write an article about the 2.5 million-strong Indian volunteer army who served Britain during the Second World War, where 87,000 of them died for their occupiers' freedom and yet until recently those who survived continued to be discriminated against in pay and pension.

I could have written an article that stated that, in civilised Britain, one in every 23 teenage girls had an abortion and in 2006 more than 17,000 of the 194,000 abortions carried out in England and Wales involved girls below the age of 18.

I could have written an article stating that Britain, the human rights champion, not wanting to get its hands dirty, had resorted to secretly outsourcing torture to Third World states under the guise of rendition by allowing up to 170 so called CIA torture flights to use its bases. Or that Britain's MI5 unlawfully shared with the CIA secret material to interrogate suspects and "facilitate interviews" including cases where the suspects were later proven to be innocent.

I could have written an article that stated that the Britain of family values is the only country in the EU that recruits child soldiers as young as 16 into its Army and ships them off battlegrounds in Iraq and Afghanistan, putting it in the same league as African dictatorships and Burma.

I could have written an article that states that Britain either recently did or has yet to sign the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings, the United Nations Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict or the UN's International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families .

I could have highlighted the fact that liberal Britain is responsible for the physical and racial abuse of hundreds of failed asylum-seekers at the hands of private security guards during their forced removal from the country .

I could have written about the countless cases of slave-like working conditions of immigrant labours such as the 23 Chinese workers who lost their lives in 2004 as they harvested cockles in the dangerous rising tides in Morecambe Bay.

I could have written about how mortality rates from liver diseases due to alcohol abuse have declined in Europe in recent decades but in Britain the rate trebled in the same period reflecting deep societal failures.

I could have written about how in "Big Brother" Britain maltreatment of minors is so serious that one in 10, or an estimated one million children a year, suffer physical, sexual, emotional abuse or neglect.

Or that according to Oxfam 13.2 million people in the UK live in poverty – a staggering 20 per cent of the population in the sixth richest nation in the world.

I could have written all that, but out of respect for Britain, I decided not to. Because when you stitch together a collection of unconnected facts taken out of context, you end up with a distorted and inaccurate picture: something that Britain's Dubai-bashers would do well to learn.
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Offline BIGdavalad

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I could have written an article that stated that the Britain of family values is the only country in the EU that recruits child soldiers as young as 16 into its Army and ships them off battlegrounds in Iraq and Afghanistan, putting it in the same league as African dictatorships and Burma.

Don't know about the rest, but that one's bollocks.
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Offline The_Last_Don

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Don't know about the rest, but that one's bollocks.

Recruitment at 16 is true and shipping them off to Afghanistan and Iraq is also true (at the age of 18).  This is the issue with journo's they play with words without giving actual facts.  Only if an individual actually researches themselves on the topic will they come to a proper conclusion.  As mentioned in the above article the journos get paid to do a job they better come with something good!  Very sad wherever in the world this may be
« Last Edit: July 19, 2009, 04:09:57 PM by The_Last_Don »

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Don't know about the rest, but that one's bollocks.

I think that's the point being made Dava
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Offline fry

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Not sure this is quite the right place but nonetheless an interesting article about some disturbing aspects of Dubai. Can't say that I'm as enthusiastic about DIC as I once was....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6716543.ece



Dubai is the lesser of many evils.  Including Britain, America, Russia, China etc etc etc etc.  The only places in the world that have no problems are the little islands that have no people on them.
Disclaimer: The above post may not be based on facts even if stated as fact.

Offline No666

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But it's all totally irrelevant to LFC because Dubai is no longer interested in us for two reasons:

1] financial
2]nightmare of dealing with Hicks (and to some extent Gillett)
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Offline coffeehead

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Don't know about the rest, but that one's bollocks.
As others have said, that's the way journos use words and word order to imply things that aren't necessarily true. Because you KNOW British 16-year-olds don't go into combat on the front line you'd immediately raise a warning flag like you have done, quite rightly; someone reading in another country, or without the same knowledge will draw a different conclusion, which is what journalists want - people to draw erroneous conclusions themselves so that they can achieve an effect but still hold up their hands if questioned and say 'i didn't specifically say that'.

On a broader note, and not aimed at anyone here, I think we football fans, and Liverpool fans in particular, are in a slightly privileged position. We KNOW the extent to which the media write bollocks, the way they twist things and sensationalise and highlight things unnecessarily or put two and two together and get five and so on. The way they play with words and our expectations and prejudices. We know how they've written falsely about Liverpool the city as well as the club for many years.

So knowing these things I'd hope we would take what they say on any other subject with equal amounts of salt. Personally I'd say shame on any Liverpool fan who automatically believes what the media say on current affairs subjects and issues like this one, knowing what they do know about the way the media operates. 

Offline SadRed

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There is worse reality behind US and UK's facade. Bollocks thread.

Offline MichaelO

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They're muslims, no? Then they're fucking evil! That's the new westeren "understanding"...... 

.... but on the other hand... we the western are soooooo perfect!
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Offline redfishman7

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There is worse reality behind US and UK's facade. Bollocks thread.

Agreed, end of.

Offline MarkoPanadero

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"you stole through taking out excessive finance that is not justified by you [sic] salaries. Then when you cannot pay you run, this is theft born out of greed and arrogance."

Reminded me of a certain 2 gobshites we want rid of!!!
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I urge everyone (who hasn't) to read 'Manufacturing Consent' by Noam Chomsky. I'm currently reading Chomsky on Miseducation which follows on from MC quite well.
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Offline manifest

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I think you need to be wary of forming judgements on places based upon a journalists article especially when he is clearly writing to an agenda. All major cities in the world suffer from various undesirable problems and it is easy to just focus on those rather than look at the whole picture.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/sultan-sooud-al-qassemi-if-you-think-dubai-is-bad-just-look-at-your-own-country-1666748.html

Sultan Sooud Al Qassemi: If you think Dubai is bad, just look at your own country

Say that I’d written that in first world Britain there are 380,00 homeless

Friday, 10 April 2009



I recently figured that if British journalists such as Johann Hari (Tuesday, 7 April) who come to Dubai don't send back something sensationalist it won't get printed and they won't get paid. After all, sleaze sells.

I called a British journalist friend of mine and said: "I'm going to write an article about London, the same way your compatriots write about Dubai." By the time I was back at home I had come to my senses, it's not fair to London, a city so dear to my heart, or Londoners to be judged by the actions of a few. It's easy to generalise about a country when figures are manipulated to sensationalise and sell papers.

Say for example that I had written an article that states that, in wealthy first world Britain there are 380,000 homeless people, many of them mentally ill, starving and abandoned in sub-zero temperatures to live on the streets.

Say then that I wrote an article that states that Britain, the so called "jail capital of Western Europe" sentenced in 2006 alone a staggering additional 12,000 women to prison and that up to seven babies a month are born in jail where they spend their crucial first months.

I could have written an article that stated Britain, victor in the Second World War, had given refuge to 400 Nazi war criminals, with all but one of them getting away with it. Or one stating that the number of Indians who died while serving the British Empire, to build your Tube and grow your tea, is so large it is simply unquantifiable by any historian.

Or say I write an article about the 2.5 million-strong Indian volunteer army who served Britain during the Second World War, where 87,000 of them died for their occupiers' freedom and yet until recently those who survived continued to be discriminated against in pay and pension.

I could have written an article that stated that, in civilised Britain, one in every 23 teenage girls had an abortion and in 2006 more than 17,000 of the 194,000 abortions carried out in England and Wales involved girls below the age of 18.

I could have written an article stating that Britain, the human rights champion, not wanting to get its hands dirty, had resorted to secretly outsourcing torture to Third World states under the guise of rendition by allowing up to 170 so called CIA torture flights to use its bases. Or that Britain's MI5 unlawfully shared with the CIA secret material to interrogate suspects and "facilitate interviews" including cases where the suspects were later proven to be innocent.

I could have written an article that stated that the Britain of family values is the only country in the EU that recruits child soldiers as young as 16 into its Army and ships them off battlegrounds in Iraq and Afghanistan, putting it in the same league as African dictatorships and Burma.

I could have written an article that states that Britain either recently did or has yet to sign the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings, the United Nations Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the involvement of children in armed conflict or the UN's International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of All Migrant Workers and Members of Their Families .

I could have highlighted the fact that liberal Britain is responsible for the physical and racial abuse of hundreds of failed asylum-seekers at the hands of private security guards during their forced removal from the country .

I could have written about the countless cases of slave-like working conditions of immigrant labours such as the 23 Chinese workers who lost their lives in 2004 as they harvested cockles in the dangerous rising tides in Morecambe Bay.

I could have written about how mortality rates from liver diseases due to alcohol abuse have declined in Europe in recent decades but in Britain the rate trebled in the same period reflecting deep societal failures.

I could have written about how in "Big Brother" Britain maltreatment of minors is so serious that one in 10, or an estimated one million children a year, suffer physical, sexual, emotional abuse or neglect.

Or that according to Oxfam 13.2 million people in the UK live in poverty – a staggering 20 per cent of the population in the sixth richest nation in the world.

I could have written all that, but out of respect for Britain, I decided not to. Because when you stitch together a collection of unconnected facts taken out of context, you end up with a distorted and inaccurate picture: something that Britain's Dubai-bashers would do well to learn.

here is the jonathan hari article this above is a reply to:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html

heavy.

Online west_london_red

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i have always been pround of our teenage pregnancy rate, quite impressive i thought.
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Offline Mad Men

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i have always been pround of our teenage pregnancy rate, quite impressive i thought.

Did you contribute in any way? :)

I think anyone who has been to dubai (I have 1 visit so far) will realize two things: one, you are either filthy rich or you're not. And two, you either love dubai or hate it to death.

Not much else to say about the place. People drive like idiots there, workers are underpaid and their basic needs neither important to the arabs nor the EXPAT community who hire them (that includes our own people who go there as senior management because of the all mighty profit or cost issues) and almost every shopping mall is catered for the upper class of society.

I don't know why people think dubai is all that great but then again, London is no better either. Expensive, aging infrastructure, traffic jams, over populated.....
I can think of nicer places to visit, work or live anyways.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2009, 12:51:17 AM by Somebody-Special »
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Offline fry

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Did you contribute in any way? :)

I think anyone who has been to dubai (I have 1 visit so far) will realize two things: one, you are either filthy rich or you're not. And two, you either love dubai or hate it to death.

Not much else to say about the place. People drive like idiots there, workers are underpaid and their basic needs neither important to the arabs nor the EXPAT community who hire them (that includes our own people who go there as senior management because of the all mighty profit or cost issues) and almost every shopping mall is catered for the upper class of society.

I don't know why people think dubai is all that great but then again, London is no better either. Expensive, aging infrastructure, traffic jams, over populated.....
I can think of nicer places to visit, work or live anyways.
So in a way you are saying Dubai is the marmite emirate, love it or hate it?
Disclaimer: The above post may not be based on facts even if stated as fact.

Offline Mad Men

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So in a way you are saying Dubai is the marmite emirate, love it or hate it?

I guess. Honestly, I HATE the place from top to bottom and I can't stand the attitude of the locals because they are absolute fucking snobs. You know the saying: village hill billy's who made good but never got an education nor a little bit of respect for people who are beneth them.

Same thing in Dubai.

As I said, you are either rich or you're not. And if you're not, you're going to go bonkers because everything is so fuckin expensive.
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Offline T-1000

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That article is full of cheap shots at muslims. Whilst I agree there are elements of Dubai not to everyones taste, the article is gutter journalism with an inherent bias towards hating Dubal
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Offline maj

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Not sure this is quite the right place but nonetheless an interesting article about some disturbing aspects of Dubai. Can't say that I'm as enthusiastic about DIC as I once was....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article6716543.ece



Is anybody trying to tell me theres no prostitutes here in britian. People are not being made to work in shitty conditions and under the minimum wage. Dubai has the same problems as the rest of the world.

Offline maj

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That article is full of cheap shots at muslims. Whilst I agree there are elements of Dubai not to everyones taste, the article is gutter journalism with an inherent bias towards hating Dubal

Well said.

Offline Mad Men

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That article is full of cheap shots at muslims. Whilst I agree there are elements of Dubai not to everyones taste, the article is gutter journalism with an inherent bias towards hating Dubal

I don't think so. I think the article is pretty straight forward and touch's on a number of issues in Dubai that most expats agree are real and true.

This is what we do. And we do it very well. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bM8gOyjeuc

Offline T-1000

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I don't think so. I think the article is pretty straight forward and touch's on a number of issues in Dubai that most expats agree are real and true.

At the outset I'll say there are things about Dubai, Emiratis etc. that I agree with. However it's blatantly obvious from the tone of the article that the journo hates Dubai from the outset.


First sentence:

Quote
"Andrew Blair says he will pick me up from outside my sleaze-bucket of a hotel…"

First sentence of second paragraph:
Quote
"Such conspicuous flaunting of vulgar affluence seems to me entirely appropriate for this foul city..."

And there are many more examples of this. He consistently mixes up elements of being a muslim and the the faults of Dubai:

Quote
I sip water (they were out of beer) and ask a question

wtf? that's not even funny, it's just lame!

Quote
You can have your big apartments, providing you don’t default on the payments when times are hard, in which case we’ll put you in prison — there ain’t no bankruptcy get-out clauses here, inshallah.

Quote
You can dress like you were at a stag-party pub crawl in Prague, or like an infidel whore on the make

Both unnecessary comments.
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Offline redprodigal

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I don't think so. I think the article is pretty straight forward and touch's on a number of issues in Dubai that most expats agree are real and true.



To be honest mate that's bollocks.
You don't need to be a genius to see that the journo obviously has a deep hatred of Dubai by the pathetic snide remarks. He obviously got caught shagging a married woman on the beach while being dressed up as Bin Laden. Sad twat.
To support - to agree with and give encouragement to someone or something because you want them to succeed, especially in their times of need.
To boo - to make an expression of strong disapproval or disagreement against someone or something even when they are top of the league, usually done by gobshites.

Offline scatman

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fuck the emirates.

My people go there to work, thinking they will get paid well for constucting all these megastructures.

Instead they find they work 18 hour days, and have 10 men sleeping in one room with one toilet between 100. Fucking disgrace.

The men don't complain, yet the health and safety officers who visit these squals just look past them.
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Offline redprodigal

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fuck the emirates.

My people go there to work, thinking they will get paid well for constucting all these megastructures.

Instead they find they work 18 hour days, and have 10 men sleeping in one room with one toilet between 100. Fucking disgrace.

The men don't complain, yet the health and safety officers who visit these squals just look past them.

Your people?
To support - to agree with and give encouragement to someone or something because you want them to succeed, especially in their times of need.
To boo - to make an expression of strong disapproval or disagreement against someone or something even when they are top of the league, usually done by gobshites.

Offline MichaelO

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Your people?

He's either Moses or asian of origin.....

« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 07:43:53 AM by Michael Osmann »
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Offline Mad Men

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He's either Moses or asian of origin.....

Asian is vague. I think he is referring to indian or pakistani or nepalese or indonesian workers.

This is what we do. And we do it very well. Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bM8gOyjeuc

Offline scatman

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sorry guys, a bit of a rant, i mean specifically men from Gujarat, India. But it applies to thousands across the subcontinent from Pakistan to Sri Lanka. Basically slaves.
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The conditions that workers in Dubai live in are appalling and given some of the stories they are virtually indentured labour. In fact the way workers from Asia are treated there on the whole is inhumane. Compared to other places in the region Dubai might be relatively liberal, but by not allowing union rights to the workers, and not addressing their living conditions borders on cruelty.


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Johaan Haari's piece in the Independent is better than the one from the Times. The Bangladeshi labourer he writes about is not uncommon and in effect he is an indentured labourer, just one step up from a slave.

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That article is full of cheap shots at muslims. Whilst I agree there are elements of Dubai not to everyones taste, the article is gutter journalism with an inherent bias towards hating Dubal

Have you read Johaan Haari's article, in which he talks about the way that Pakistani and Bangladeshi workers are treated? They are Muslims as well, so you can't accuse him of taking cheap shots at Muslims when he's highlighting their maltreatment.


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sorry guys, a bit of a rant, i mean specifically men from Gujarat, India. But it applies to thousands across the subcontinent from Pakistan to Sri Lanka. Basically slaves.
I watched a documentary on dubai which looked at the working conditions etc.  Terrible working conditions.  I maybe out of my element here but i dont think anyone is forced to work there.  Yes people need to earn money and were probably promised all sorts when being recruited but things are never usually as described.  Also, the BBC spoke to one of the recruiters who was From India and worked for an Indian recruitment agency.  This recruitment agency made all the promises.  This is who i would be really pissed off at. 

I'm not saying its OK, its a disgrace and shamefull on who's job it is to regulate working conditions.   

Sorry if i come across as a dickhead, I'm nearly certain I'm under educated on the subject.   
Disclaimer: The above post may not be based on facts even if stated as fact.

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Exploitative middle-men can't absolve the state for the lack of union rights for workers ^^^


Offline lionel_messias

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DUBAI (Reuters) - Dubai's Al Nassma, the world's first brand of chocolate made with camels' milk, plans to expand into new Arab markets, Europe, Japan and the United States, its general manager said Tuesday.


......The dirty b*stards!!!!

Offline fry

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Exploitative middle-men can't absolve the state for the lack of union rights for workers ^^^



Agree with you, thats why i said its shamefull on who is supposed to be regulating this.  Similar things happen here with polish worked im led to beleive, we are supposed to have a sophisticated set of regulations etc but it does not stop exploitation.
Disclaimer: The above post may not be based on facts even if stated as fact.

Offline T-1000

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Have you read Johaan Haari's article, in which he talks about the way that Pakistani and Bangladeshi workers are treated? They are Muslims as well, so you can't accuse him of taking cheap shots at Muslims when he's highlighting their maltreatment.



Yeah I'm fully aware of that and I think it's appalling. The Times' journo is cheap-shotting muslims and highlighting the plight of workers at the same time! Unless he's doing it to show the hypocrisy of the emiratis (which he clearly isn't) then you can't excuse it or ignore it.
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Offline maj

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Do any of you know anybody who has worked in Dubai?? My mates Brother in law a benglai worked their. It was the agents who exploited them, not the Dubai government. Building companies who have their head offices here in the UK use agents to find workers for them. The Dubai Government could tighten regulation thats for sure, but to say its entirely their fault is total bullshit. If people want to blame them lets start blaming the British government for all the problems in this country.

Offline scatman

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Do any of you know anybody who has worked in Dubai?? My mates Brother in law a benglai worked their. It was the agents who exploited them, not the Dubai government. Building companies who have their head offices here in the UK use agents to find workers for them. The Dubai Government could tighten regulation thats for sure, but to say its entirely their fault is total bullshit. If people want to blame them lets start blaming the British government for all the problems in this country.

Yes 2 of my uncles worked in Dubai for 6 months, then left and went back to working in Oman as they were treated better. No money in the world would make them go back to Dubai.
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