Author Topic: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters  (Read 62765 times)

Offline lakes

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #560 on: June 7, 2009, 03:36:33 PM »
oh yes dont get me wrong it would be better for the to sell the club right now before taking out the loan, the loan has always been their back up plan.


Jack Slater

as far as i know the price was set 450mil and i think there was something added on to that by hicks that made the buyers walk away. even today this deal is on the table for anyone to pick up and buy, the problem has been with hick, he is as think as shit and is trying to make money all the time from the sale of the club, he has shot himself in the foot a few times.

it works out that G&H and RBS and any new buyer must work it all out in the next 7 days
there is a part of banking law were you need to state your intent 6 weeks before a loan is up, this is also the same as the bank, if they are going to pull the loan they will also need to let them know 6 weeks before the loan date is up.

Lakes, wouldn't it be harder to find a buyer if they get a new loan?  I assume a new loan with higher interest repayments will increase the price, and H&G will be in a more secure position.  Surely if there was a buyer, now is the better time to act since H&G are stuck and with few options?

Offline Jack Slater

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #561 on: June 7, 2009, 03:39:08 PM »
http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/sport/football/article-1191319/Harris-set-calm-Upton-Park-chaos-70m-buyout.html

If a bank taking over running a club leads to an automatic deduction, how come we are not seeing that at West Ham? The article linked above suggests an Icelandic bank is taking over WH and selling it on via Keith Harris. Haven't heard a peep about penalties for them.


If he owns it directly, then there'd be no penalty, even if he goes personally bankrupt.

If he owns it via intermediary companies, then there'd be no penalty if he goes personally bankrupt, so long as the intermediary companies dont go into insolvency proceedings.

If he owns it via intermediary companies, and those companies DO go into insolvency proceedings, then West Ham should be given a penalty under PL rules.




Offline Jack Slater

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #562 on: June 7, 2009, 03:42:57 PM »

as far as i know the price was set 450mil and i think there was something added on to that by hicks that made the buyers walk away. even today this deal is on the table for anyone to pick up and buy, the problem has been with hick, he is as think as shit and is trying to make money all the time from the sale of the club, he has shot himself in the foot a few times.

Wow.  You sure that's 450m GBP?

If so I'm amazed, but it's the first bit of good news for a few days.


Offline riise6

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #563 on: June 7, 2009, 03:47:25 PM »
So the club itself has not been put into receivership - to keep it's value up, to get maximum value through a sale to meet his other liabilities.

Surly that would be the best thing in our case also if RBS wanted to keep the value of the club up no?
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Offline The Lord Admiral

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #564 on: June 7, 2009, 03:53:36 PM »
oh yes dont get me wrong it would be better for the to sell the club right now before taking out the loan, the loan has always been their back up plan.


Jack Slater

as far as i know the price was set 450mil and i think there was something added on to that by hicks that made the buyers walk away. even today this deal is on the table for anyone to pick up and buy, the problem has been with hick, he is as think as shit and is trying to make money all the time from the sale of the club, he has shot himself in the foot a few times.

it works out that G&H and RBS and any new buyer must work it all out in the next 7 days
there is a part of banking law were you need to state your intent 6 weeks before a loan is up, this is also the same as the bank, if they are going to pull the loan they will also need to let them know 6 weeks before the loan date is up.

Cheers for that Lakes. Any more detail on the foot shooting scenarios? I could do with a laugh!

Offline redmark

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #565 on: June 7, 2009, 03:55:31 PM »
I was looking for some mention of the 'personal guarantees' that were raised back when the loan was taken out; they're mentioned in this Guardian article from April (about Hicks' US group defaulting on loan payments).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/apr/03/tom-hicks-liverpool-default-loans

It will also have the damaging effect of shaking the confidence of Kop Holdings' two lenders, Royal Bank of Scotland, around 70% owned by the UK government, and the US finance house Wachovia. The club's £350.5m loan is not only secured against its own assets but also through letters of credit and personal guarantees from Hicks and Gillett, amounting to £185m.

So, bear with me on this and correct me where I'm wrong:

Let's say July 24th comes and RBS/Wachovia refuse a refinancing deal; Hicks/Gillet have no alternative lenders and (obviously) cannot repay the £350m. They default on the loan repayment.

Kop Holdings therefore owes the RBS/Wachovia £350m.
Kop Holdings sole (significant) asset is the club - Liverpool Football Club & Athletic Grounds Ltd.

However:

The club's £350.5m loan is not only secured against its own assets but also through letters of credit and personal guarantees from Hicks and Gillett, amounting to £185m.

If Kop Holdings was put into administration (ok, 10 point deduction), could the administrator not accept an offer of, say, £175m for Liverpool Football Club & Athletic Grounds Ltd, with £185m owed personally by Hicks and Gillet? Even if this is too 'risky' for RBS/Wachovia, surely at least the £58.2m loan from the Cayman based holding company could be written off.

So is there not a scenario (which will probably involve a points reduction, but that seems almost worth it) where the club could be sold for a realistic figure - somewhere between £175m and £250m - and the remaining debts be the responsibility of Hicks and Gillet personally?
« Last Edit: June 7, 2009, 03:57:31 PM by redmark »
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Offline riise6

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #566 on: June 7, 2009, 03:55:59 PM »
Cheers for that Lakes. Any more detail on the foot shooting scenarios? I could do with a laugh!

~Just being a greedy b&$t&rd id say! lol
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Offline The Lord Admiral

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #567 on: June 7, 2009, 03:58:36 PM »
~Just being a greedy b&$t&rd id say! lol
;D I fucking obsessed with this. About 12 months ago I had to ban myself from the thread because it was starting to affect my sleep. Now it's getting closer the pressure is building again.



Offline reddwarf12003

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #568 on: June 7, 2009, 04:02:10 PM »

If he owns it directly, then there'd be no penalty, even if he goes personally bankrupt.

If he owns it via intermediary companies, then there'd be no penalty if he goes personally bankrupt, so long as the intermediary companies dont go into insolvency proceedings.


If he owns it via intermediary companies, and those companies DO go into insolvency proceedings, then West Ham should be given a penalty under PL rules.




Not being sinical here but this is West Ham your talking about.

Offline riise6

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #569 on: June 7, 2009, 04:02:17 PM »
;D I fucking obsessed with this. About 12 months ago I had to ban myself from the thread because it was starting to affect my sleep. Now it's getting closer the pressure is building again.




Know how you feel just after getting my sleeping pattern sorted i have now started staying on here till 3-4am getting up all hours of the day just waiting on the hope that someone can tell me/us we have been sold old G&H have crashed their planes ect :P
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Offline reddwarf12003

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #570 on: June 7, 2009, 04:07:18 PM »
;D I fucking obsessed with this. About 12 months ago I had to ban myself from the thread because it was starting to affect my sleep. Now it's getting closer the pressure is building again.



I know what you mean starting to feel like ive got OCD, same routine every day, check every possible site in a vain hope they've gone.
Its got worse since i've been laid off the last couple of weeks

Offline vanoord

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #571 on: June 7, 2009, 04:16:12 PM »
Let's say July 24th comes and RBS/Wachovia refuse a refinancing deal; Hicks/Gillet have no alternative lenders and (obviously) cannot repay the £350m. They default on the loan repayment.

Kop Holdings therefore owes the RBS/Wachovia £350m.
Kop Holdings sole (significant) asset is the club - Liverpool Football Club & Athletic Grounds Ltd.

However:

The club's £350.5m loan is not only secured against its own assets but also through letters of credit and personal guarantees from Hicks and Gillett, amounting to £185m.

If Kop Holdings was put into administration (ok, 10 point deduction), could the administrator not accept an offer of, say, £175m for Liverpool Football Club & Athletic Grounds Ltd, with £185m owed personally by Hicks and Gillet? Even if this is too 'risky' for RBS/Wachovia, surely at least the £58.2m loan from the Cayman based holding company could be written off.

So is there not a scenario (which will probably involve a points reduction, but that seems almost worth it) where the club could be sold for a realistic figure - somewhere between £175m and £250m - and the remaining debts be the responsibility of Hicks and Gillet personally?

The debts are structured like this (give or take):

Kop Football (Holdings) Ltd - owed Kop Football (Cayman) £58m at 30/07/08, but that's now about £80m

it owns

Kop Football Ltd - owes RBS/Wachovia £245m, or which £80m has been lent to LFC

which owns

Liverpool Football Club & Athletic Grounds Ltd - owes RBS/Wachovia something like £23m (of the £105m facility), plus £80m to Kop Football, plus further amounts which bring the total to around £202m.

The current worth of the club's assets (at 30/07/08) is in the region of £255m, with players forming the bulk of that.
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Offline Retro Red

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #572 on: June 7, 2009, 04:43:41 PM »
When people have been looking at potential buyers coming in, most have forgotted that just over two years ago, in a world that had never heard of the phrase "credit crunch", a relatively debt free Liverpool Football Club was purchased for just under £175 million.

All this talk of £400 million and £500 million was created by the owners - the only people in the world who placed that valuation on the club were Hicks and Gillett and, probably, though only out of sheer desperation, us. Not a single buyer thought it was worth that much. Then came the collapse of the world banking system and a pile of nails hammered into the coffin of the Hicks/Gillett LBO model that we are now lumbered with.

I'd guess that the club is probably now worth about £220million. The big problem is the debt. In order to sell, Hicks and Gillett would want to both get a profit on their £180 million initial outlay (purchase price plus expenses incurred), although they have already had that paid back to them via the loans, and clear the debts against the group of companies they have set up, from Cayman to Kop Holdings to Kop Football. To simply break even on that objective, I think they they would need to sell for something like £580 million! To sell the club at something like it's current value, as well as pay off the debts, I reckon you're looking at £620 million!

With that in mind, and the state of the global economy, I don't reckon there's any rescue on the horizon.

Our best hope is some sort of RBS takeover, with the banks and yanks taking a hit on the debt as the group collapses. The Yanks would lose whatever they reckon they've put in and the bank may be able to get £300-odd million for selling the club on.

Given that scenario, it's no wonder both sides keep putting off the day of reckoning. That'll probably be another six months then!

Offline fowler_is_god9

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #573 on: June 7, 2009, 05:05:28 PM »
The debts are structured like this (give or take):

Kop Football (Holdings) Ltd - owed Kop Football (Cayman) £58m at 30/07/08, but that's now about £80m

it owns

Kop Football Ltd - owes RBS/Wachovia £245m, or which £80m has been lent to LFC

which owns

Liverpool Football Club & Athletic Grounds Ltd - owes RBS/Wachovia something like £23m (of the £105m facility), plus £80m to Kop Football, plus further amounts which bring the total to around £202m.

The current worth of the club's assets (at 30/07/08) is in the region of £255m, with players forming the bulk of that.

I am sorry but that  sounds like bullshit.  As far as I know players cannot be recognised on a balance sheet as an asset.  Transfer fees maybe, but even then they would be depreciated/amortised over a period of time.  Gerrard for example would fetch over 40m but that is not allowed to be shown anywhere on the Balance sheet as then any clubs could invent any amount they want for players.  I imagine the majority of our assets on the Balance sheet have nothing to do with the players.

There is so much guess work claiming to be facts in this whole thread.  The majority being beyond shite by the looks of it to me with people barking out all sorts of figures.  I would not be surprised after all this "world is going to end discussion" if nothing happened.

Offline riise6

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #574 on: June 7, 2009, 05:08:42 PM »
When people have been looking at potential buyers coming in, most have forgotted that just over two years ago, in a world that had never heard of the phrase "credit crunch", a relatively debt free Liverpool Football Club was purchased for just under £175 million.

All this talk of £400 million and £500 million was created by the owners - the only people in the world who placed that valuation on the club were Hicks and Gillett and, probably, though only out of sheer desperation, us. Not a single buyer thought it was worth that much. Then came the collapse of the world banking system and a pile of nails hammered into the coffin of the Hicks/Gillett LBO model that we are now lumbered with.

I'd guess that the club is probably now worth about £220million. The big problem is the debt. In order to sell, Hicks and Gillett would want to both get a profit on their £180 million initial outlay (purchase price plus expenses incurred), although they have already had that paid back to them via the loans, and clear the debts against the group of companies they have set up, from Cayman to Kop Holdings to Kop Football. To simply break even on that objective, I think they they would need to sell for something like £580 million! To sell the club at something like it's current value, as well as pay off the debts, I reckon you're looking at £620 million!

With that in mind, and the state of the global economy, I don't reckon there's any rescue on the horizon.

Our best hope is some sort of RBS takeover, with the banks and yanks taking a hit on the debt as the group collapses. The Yanks would lose whatever they reckon they've put in and the bank may be able to get £300-odd million for selling the club on.

Given that scenario, it's no wonder both sides keep putting off the day of reckoning. That'll probably be another six months then!

Can i ask where you getting these numbers from?
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #575 on: June 7, 2009, 05:17:26 PM »

The big problem is the debt. In order to sell, Hicks and Gillett would want to both get a profit on their £180 million initial outlay (purchase price plus expenses incurred), although they have already had that paid back to them via the loans, and clear the debts against the group of companies they have set up, from Cayman to Kop Holdings to Kop Football. To simply break even on that objective, I think they they would need to sell for something like £580 million! To sell the club at something like it's current value, as well as pay off the debts, I reckon you're looking at £620 million!


What the fuck?  Apparently the debt was around 350 m (which includes the money they borrowed to buy the club), now it's apparently around 390 m so to break even they have to sell for that amount. Where the fuck do you get 580 or 620m from?
« Last Edit: June 7, 2009, 05:25:57 PM by redprodigal »
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Offline riise6

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #576 on: June 7, 2009, 05:24:47 PM »
What the fuck?  Apparently the debt was around 350 m (which includes the money they borrowed to buy the club), now it's apparently around 390 m so to break even they have to sell for that amount. Where the fuck do you get 580 or 620m from?

Thats what id love to know aswell they money seems to be going up with every post!
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #577 on: June 7, 2009, 05:24:50 PM »
I am sorry but that  sounds like bullshit.  As far as I know players cannot be recognised on a balance sheet as an asset.  Transfer fees maybe, but even then they would be depreciated/amortised over a period of time.  Gerrard for example would fetch over 40m but that is not allowed to be shown anywhere on the Balance sheet as then any clubs could invent any amount they want for players.  I imagine the majority of our assets on the Balance sheet have nothing to do with the players.

There is so much guess work claiming to be facts in this whole thread.  The majority being beyond shite by the looks of it to me with people barking out all sorts of figures.  I would not be surprised after all this "world is going to end discussion" if nothing happened.

The NBV of assets is currently £255m.  Doesn't mean that is what the club is worth though.  However the way accounting rules are for intangibles (FRS 15 if memory serves) the registration costs have to be capitalised to the balance sheet and amortised over the life of the contract.  At present the net book value of the clubs purchased players is c£130m.  It's been like this for 10 years.

What the fuck?  Apparently the debt was around 350 m (which includes the money they borrowed to buy the club), now it's apparently around 390 m so to break even they have to sell for that amount. Where the fuck do you get 580 or 620m from?

To break even on 31st July 2008 they would have needed to sell the club for approx £300m.  What that breakeven point is presently is unknown.
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #578 on: June 7, 2009, 05:29:34 PM »
To break even on 31st July 2008 they would have needed to sell the club for approx £300m.  What that breakeven point is presently is unknown.

Thank you. Agreed that the breakeven point is unknown and I think you'd agree that what Retro Red said earlier is a complete load of the biggest bollocks I have ever read. If I'm wrong I apologize in advance and will go and shoot myself immediately.
« Last Edit: June 7, 2009, 05:32:45 PM by redprodigal »
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Offline lakes

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #579 on: June 7, 2009, 05:30:23 PM »
yep and thats why some have walked away from the deal

i think it was about 5 weeks ago that a deal was almost done for 450mil, something happend and they walked, i am not sure but i think it was something to do with hicks trying to hold some stock, another part of a deal was to sell the club for 350mil  and hicks would still hold 10 to 15 &of the stock, again this deal was never done.

the price of the club needs to be more that 350mil due to the loan and intrest, so if you was to buy the club right now you are more like looking at 30mil for the club 50 mil to debts, 50mil for the rights for the plans and the site of the new ground.

as you see the rice is going up all the time and not going down, after the loan is done will will need a buyer to come id and buy the club and write off the rest of the debt, hicks it trying to make profit on his 180 mil, if a buyer said to him they will give him 50 mil on to for that for himself i am sure he would take it.



When people have been looking at potential buyers coming in, most have forgotted that just over two years ago, in a world that had never heard of the phrase "credit crunch", a relatively debt free Liverpool Football Club was purchased for just under £175 million.

All this talk of £400 million and £500 million was created by the owners - the only people in the world who placed that valuation on the club were Hicks and Gillett and, probably, though only out of sheer desperation, us. Not a single buyer thought it was worth that much. Then came the collapse of the world banking system and a pile of nails hammered into the coffin of the Hicks/Gillett LBO model that we are now lumbered with.

I'd guess that the club is probably now worth about £220million. The big problem is the debt. In order to sell, Hicks and Gillett would want to both get a profit on their £180 million initial outlay (purchase price plus expenses incurred), although they have already had that paid back to them via the loans, and clear the debts against the group of companies they have set up, from Cayman to Kop Holdings to Kop Football. To simply break even on that objective, I think they they would need to sell for something like £580 million! To sell the club at something like it's current value, as well as pay off the debts, I reckon you're looking at £620 million!

With that in mind, and the state of the global economy, I don't reckon there's any rescue on the horizon.

Our best hope is some sort of RBS takeover, with the banks and yanks taking a hit on the debt as the group collapses. The Yanks would lose whatever they reckon they've put in and the bank may be able to get £300-odd million for selling the club on.

Given that scenario, it's no wonder both sides keep putting off the day of reckoning. That'll probably be another six months then!

Offline Retro Red

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #580 on: June 7, 2009, 06:09:56 PM »
Thank you. Agreed that the breakeven point is unknown and I think you'd agree that what Retro Red said earlier is a complete load of the biggest bollocks I have ever read. If I'm wrong I apologize in advance and will go and shoot myself immediately.

Read what I said.

Not "break even"  but "break even on that objective". The objective being stated as making a profit on what they paid for the club plus paying off the debts the group has now incurred. Therefore £400million plus the £180million it cost them to buy the thing = £580million.

Probably complete bollocks, as you say, but that has generally been the MO of the LBO merchant pre collapse of the system that financed their activities.

ttnbd, can you shed any light on why the value of player registrations is higher in the consolidated accounts than in the football club? Does this mean that the holding company is holding onto player registrations financed by the owners' loans or is it something more innocent - like a change in accounting policy/timing difference or something?


EDIT:

PS: It seems someone more qualified than me was thinking along the same lines regarding what the Yanks would want to sell the club for:

Quote
H&G will NOT sell LFC until the entire point of the LBO is achieved i.e. make a handsome profit. Its usual practice to lever acquired entities for 5-7 years, repay the debt and then sell them for a large profit. Hence, I don’t see H&G selling LFC unless this ‘large gain’ is to be had. How large is obviously anyone’s guess – I would wager a min. return of 15-20% i.e. for about 600-700M in the next 12-18 months.


That's from an article posted on raotl that someone lifted from somewhere else:
 http://forum.raotl.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=125703

It pretty much explains the motivation and objective behind the LBO, but from the perspective of someone who thinks it's all pretty much OK. 
« Last Edit: June 7, 2009, 06:34:11 PM by Retro Red »

Offline redmark

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #581 on: June 7, 2009, 06:31:34 PM »
Not "break even"  but "break even on that objective". The objective being stated as making a profit on what they paid for the club plus paying off the debts the group has now incurred. Therefore £400million plus the £180million it cost them to buy the thing = £580million.


It didn't cost them anything to buy, because that forms part of the debt, put onto the club. You're double counting the £180m.

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Offline Retro Red

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #582 on: June 7, 2009, 06:37:00 PM »
It didn't cost them anything to buy, because that forms part of the debt, put onto the club. You're double counting the £180m.



Aye, because that's what they'll do. Just because they've got their money back from the loan doesn't mean they'll want to sell for less than what it was worth when they bought it.


Offline redmark

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #583 on: June 7, 2009, 06:43:44 PM »
Aye, because that's what they'll do. Just because they've got their money back from the loan doesn't mean they'll want to sell for less than what it was worth when they bought it.

I don't think it matters what they want. I think if they could get out of Liverpool without losing or gaining a penny (or cent), they would.
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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #584 on: June 7, 2009, 07:08:48 PM »
I think that it is right to say that if G&H could get out of this without losing money, they would.

Subsequent to their acquiring our club not a single bid has been made publicly, nor one rejected publicly, the rest is unsubstantiated speculation.

There are no circumstances in which RBS would take on the running of the club.

It is possible that the banks might take equity for debt with a first charge, as part of a refinacing package.
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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #585 on: June 7, 2009, 07:24:39 PM »
Aye, because that's what they'll do. Just because they've got their money back from the loan doesn't mean they'll want to sell for less than what it was worth when they bought it.



But you're saying that because the club's purchase price at the time they bought was 180m, that is what they will want to make as a clear profit. So if you buy a house for 200,000, then borrow another 100,000 for improvements, and then decide to sell it, you are going to charge the 200,000 plus the 100,000, plus another 200,000 because that's what it cost you in the first place.  ::)
Ok, they are deluded greedy bastards and I wouldn't put anything past them but I could come out and say they will be satisfied with 10m each because of the shit they've got themselves into, making it a total selling price of 420m. Another poster could say they will be happy to get out of it breaking even making the selling price to be 400m. Some have even said that they will sell at a small loss so really nobody has any idea what is going on in their minds.
I just think your figures of 580m and 620m are totally way OTT and ridiculous, but that's just my opinion  ;)
« Last Edit: June 7, 2009, 07:36:08 PM by redprodigal »
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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #586 on: June 7, 2009, 07:48:21 PM »
Regarding a disposal price, their rationale will be quite simple.

Given the changed financial landscape if G&H can leave without it costing tham anything they would, if they cannot afford now to build the stadium to grow the capital value of the club.

If the club's debt can be self financed for the forseeable future, especially if there is a prospect of building a new stadium, they will stick with it in the hope of a "sunnier day".

If their ability to service the debt is limited, and their personal exposure is increasing, they will sell at a loss less than they calculate would be their exposure if the business went into Adminstration due to their inability to finance it.
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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #587 on: June 7, 2009, 07:58:08 PM »
I don't think it matters what they want. I think if they could get out of Liverpool without losing or gaining a penny (or cent), they would.

Someone above (I think it may been Lakes) said there was an offer on the table a month ago for 450m but Hicks tried to squeeze a bit more and it stalled.

Would 450m not leave them a reasonable profit each.

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #588 on: June 7, 2009, 08:07:02 PM »
Regarding a disposal price, their rationale will be quite simple.

Given the changed financial landscape if G&H can leave without it costing tham anything they would, if they cannot afford now to build the stadium to grow the capital value of the club.

If the club's debt can be self financed for the forseeable future, especially if there is a prospect of building a new stadium, they will stick with it in the hope of a "sunnier day".

If their ability to service the debt is limited, and their personal exposure is increasing, they will sell at a loss less than they calculate would be their exposure if the business went into Adminstration due to their inability to finance it.

Currently LFC are servicing the debt at the expense of transfer money.
G&H will happily continue this approach and wait for their sunny day when they can build the stadium - whenever that is.
The only thing I can see as being the tipping point is if the banks ask for more money from G&H's personal funds can provide or if the agreed interest rate is so high (due to increased banking risk) that there is no transfer money at all.
They can still get through this at the expense of the club - as long as Rafa keeps qualifying us for the Champions League.

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #589 on: June 7, 2009, 08:32:26 PM »
Thanks. I've never heard of the houses I've worked for doing it, unless it's the private equity arm. Your theory that it's something H&G are pushing for makes a lot of sense. They get to hold on, still have control, still have potential pay day. The 'mug buyer' they are looking for is actually the lender.

Fuck me these guys are the equivalent of suicide bombers when it comes to finance. They'll hold on until it all explodes.

I can see now why RBS are deeply uncomfortable as well. Unless another option is found, they can extend and see Lverpool's problems get worse, covering their lending in questions and potentially sparking protests. Or they can refuse and effectively take the club into administration or take a large writedown on the loans H&G couldn't repay, another PR shit show waiting to happen.

I can't see a way out of it. A buyer won't pay what is required to sort the debt out. H&G won't take a pricer lower than the debt because they'd have to take the hit. It's going to end in tears. Can you see another way out?

Decent post, i particularly like your take on the sentence in bold.

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #590 on: June 7, 2009, 09:01:26 PM »
Didnt you say yesterday that you were sure that one had been done already?

Like I said at the time, there's no reason at all to think that a deal has already been agreed (in principle). 


No. I did say that the terms will have been long since laid down, and both parties will know whether thay can, or cannot, run with them. I do believe that the liklihood is that terms in principle have been agreed though.

The reason why I cannot agree with your statement that " there's no reason at all to think that a deal has already been agreed (in principle), " is that it is patently not true.

If G&H can refinance, precisely nothing will be happening at the moment - which by common agreement is  the case. That is your reason.

Now of course G&H will continue to look for new investors, and a buyer at the right price. But make no mistake, a fall back position will have been agreed. Neither the Banks, nor G&H, can simply wait to see what turns up.

There is enough money to keep things limping along, at a cost, to both the club and G&H. also do not rule out a debt for equity swap with a first charge if things looked really grim for G&H as an alternative to Administration.
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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #591 on: June 7, 2009, 09:28:17 PM »
reading this thread makes me feel iam in a economics class rather than in a football club

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #592 on: June 7, 2009, 09:51:18 PM »
reading this thread makes me feel iam in a economics class rather than in a football club

I personally am waiting for the 'Dummies' guide to this thread.
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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #593 on: June 7, 2009, 10:02:14 PM »
ttnbd, can you shed any light on why the value of player registrations is higher in the consolidated accounts than in the football club? Does this mean that the holding company is holding onto player registrations financed by the owners' loans or is it something more innocent - like a change in accounting policy/timing difference or something?

They are marked at the fair value in the group accounts, so for the end of july 2007 the intangible assets were marked at c£60m higher than the club's balance sheet.  These were valued at the current replacement cost for similar players.
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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #594 on: June 7, 2009, 10:09:57 PM »
Hicks has tore down Corinthians in the past, why do people think that LFC is going to be any different?  :'(

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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #595 on: June 7, 2009, 10:28:02 PM »
June 8, 2009

Liverpool determined to keep hold of Xabi AlonsoTony Evans, Fottball Editor; Ian King Deputy Business Editor
Liverpool are determined to hold on to Xabi Alonso despite the midfield player’s desire to move to Real Madrid. Sources at Anfield indicated that it would take a “mind-blowing” offer by the Spanish giants to prise the 27-year-old away from the club.

Florentino Pérez, the Real president, told The Times yesterday of his interest in Alonso. “Xabi is a magnificent Spanish player, so of course we’d love to have him,” Pérez said. “But everything would involve reaching an agreement with Rafael Benítez. It will need to be an agreement that is in the best interests of both clubs.”

Liverpool made it clear yesterday that they have no intention of selling the Spain player, who has three years left on his contract. Alonso, however, has made it equally clear that he wants to move on. After the 3-1 victory over Tottenham Hotspur on the final day of the season last month, Alonso met Benítez, the Liverpool manager, to try to force the issue.

The Spaniard has been unsettled for some time, despite having a superb season. Before the Champions League qualifying match against Standard Liège in August, he was reluctant to play to avoid being cup-tied in Europe with any potential new club. However, Liverpool are adamant that they will resist any move for Alonso — Manchester City and Arsenal have also been linked with the player. Suggestions that £25 million would tempt Benítez to sell were laughed off as being “nowhere near” Liverpool’s valuation.

Benítez will be active in the transfer market despite Liverpool’s accounts revealing that the club’s profits failed to cover interest payments on debt last year. Tom Hicks and George Gillett Jr, the club’s American owners, are almost certain to get an extension on their £350 million loan deal with Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) and Wachovia, due for repayment on July 24. RBS, which owns 75 per cent of the debt, is unconcerned by the reported loss of £43 million since most of it was due to “non-cash” write-downs in the value of players.

It is understood that the bank’s only reservation about the performance of the owners is their inability to finance a new stadium. The banks are encouraging Hicks and Gillett to look for new investment to push through the new ground.

RBS was reassured when Benítez and Fernando Torres signed extensions to their contracts in the closing weeks of the season. The Spanish pair’s commitment to the club was a significant factor in giving the Americans financial breathing space.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article6451466.ece
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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #596 on: June 7, 2009, 10:41:32 PM »
Is this more bullshit from the rags or does Xabi really want to go that badly. I can understand the part about Liege as he was unhappy at the time but I thought he had settled now. How credible is this Tony Evans anyone?

« Last Edit: June 7, 2009, 10:43:09 PM by redprodigal »
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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #597 on: June 7, 2009, 10:47:52 PM »
June 8, 2009




It is understood that the bank’s only reservation about the performance of the owners is their inability to finance a new stadium. The banks are encouraging Hicks and Gillett to look for new investment to push through the new ground.

RBS was reassured when Benítez and Fernando Torres signed extensions to their contracts in the closing weeks of the season. The Spanish pair’s commitment to the club was a significant factor in giving the Americans financial breathing space.



Why does RBS care about the stadium if they are otherwise happy with the owners?
Why does RBS care if these contracts have been signed, it hardly is key to the financial situation of the club?

Sounds like a load of bollocks from Tony that.
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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #598 on: June 7, 2009, 10:48:28 PM »
Is this more bullshit from the rags or does Xabi really want to go that badly. I can understand the part about Liege as he was unhappy at the time but I thought he had settled now. How credible is this Tony Evans anyone?



Tony Evans is I believe the Football editor, and doesn't often write. I also believe he is a red
« Last Edit: June 7, 2009, 10:51:06 PM by Wezza »
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Re: A going cause for concern - Emphasis of Financial Matters
« Reply #599 on: June 7, 2009, 11:00:24 PM »
Tony Evans is I believe the Football editor, and doesn't often write. I also believe he is a red

If Tony Evans has written it i'd say you could take it to the bank.
He is a massive red and not a shit stirrer.