Author Topic: French jet missing over the Atlantic  (Read 19670 times)

Offline Mad Men

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #320 on: May 27, 2011, 04:28:47 PM »
Just saying on BBC news that it could be frozen pitot tubes.

That's scary. If there is evidence that the pitot's can indeed freeze in some situations.......................................................
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Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #321 on: May 27, 2011, 04:44:52 PM »
I have a PPL licence and a ATPL (frozen) license and have 250 hours on a twin otter and 40 hours (sim) on a A320.



Picking your brains then, if its a stall situation isn't it normal procedure to push the stick forward to re-start the engines? The reports seems to be suggesting that they were pulling the nose up...?
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Offline redpirate

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #322 on: May 27, 2011, 04:54:21 PM »
Picking your brains then, if its a stall situation isn't it normal procedure to push the stick forward to re-start the engines? The reports seems to be suggesting that they were pulling the nose up...?

Stalling because they might have been going to slow and if the ground proximity alarm was going off then they'd've had no choice but to gain altitude by forcing the nose up.

Offline Mad Men

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #323 on: May 27, 2011, 05:02:31 PM »
Picking your brains then, if its a stall situation isn't it normal procedure to push the stick forward to re-start the engines? The reports seems to be suggesting that they were pulling the nose up...?

Problem is this: if it's at night and your pitots are "frozen"..more than likely, you would have a HARD time trying to figure out if you are level or not and if your nose was pointing up and if so, how steep upwards. Correct action in a stall (depending on altitude and circumstances of course) is nose down, but I can imagine if you are already in a stall and you have no lift and you're panning...panic sets in....I can only imagine what they went through...
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Offline redpirate

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #324 on: May 27, 2011, 05:05:15 PM »

...some of the flights on Russian planes back in the 80's behind the then Iron Curtain or down in Africa took some beating.

Flying in some parts of Africa is due to luck rather than the science of flying or pilot competence. At times it can be absolutely nerve racking. "Flying on a wing and a prayer" is an apt description of flying over there.

Offline Lord Roger Hunt

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #325 on: May 27, 2011, 05:31:02 PM »
Problem is this: if it's at night and your pitots are "frozen"..more than likely, you would have a HARD time trying to figure out if you are level or not and if your nose was pointing up and if so, how steep upwards. Correct action in a stall (depending on altitude and circumstances of course) is nose down, but I can imagine if you are already in a stall and you have no lift and you're panning...panic sets in....I can only imagine what they went through...

Thanks - yes, an absolute nightmare.....  :(
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Offline Tepid water

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #326 on: May 27, 2011, 05:48:14 PM »
Aren't pitot tubes heated....I see to remember another jet crashing when they froze and I thought they changed their design
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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #327 on: May 27, 2011, 09:03:58 PM »
The news-caster said that A380 has a record of pitot problems.

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #328 on: May 27, 2011, 09:28:24 PM »
Aren't pitot tubes heated....I see to remember another jet crashing when they froze and I thought they changed their design

I believe that someone posted a link earlier on in this thread that contained quite alot of information about the issues with the pitots. Essentially I think the article was saying that at the time of the crash the airline companies were aware of problems with them but had not managed to replace them on all of their planes?

Offline Mad Men

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #329 on: May 28, 2011, 04:19:52 AM »
Okey, here we go.....information coming out from the initial investigations. Note, given the circumstances of the crash and details that are now much clearer, do IGNORE the guardians version of "...flight 447 fell 10,000 feet per minute." It should read "...lost altitude and descended..."

Air France crash inquiry details pilots' battle for survival

Initial findings from black box recorder reveal flight 447 fell 10,000ft per minute after Airbus jet hit heavy Atlantic storm


Link:http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/27/air-france-crash-inquiry

An Air France jet that crashed into the Atlantic claiming 228 lives dropped 38,000 feet (11,600 metres) in three-and-a-half minutes before slamming belly first into the ocean, according to investigators.

French air accident experts published a chilling chronology of events that showed the three Air France pilots battling to regain control on flight 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris in a heavy thunderstorm on the morning of 1 June 2009.

Air France acknowledged that the disaster was triggered by faulty speed sensors, with one of the pilots exclaiming "we have no valid indications" as the Airbus A330 fell at 10,000ft a minute. Moments before the crash, one of the pilots, again unnamed, reportedly shouted "Je ne comprends rien" ("I don't understand a thing").

Air safety specialists have been baffled by the loss of AF447, but the causes have become clearer since its black boxes were discovered two-and-a-half miles underwater this month.

According to the BEA, the French air accident investigation agency, one of the pilots called the cabin crew two hours and six minutes into the flight to tell them: "In two minutes we should enter an area where it'll move about a bit more than at the moment, you should watch out." Just over eight minutes later everyone on board was dead following a descent that, according to experts, none of the passengers would have noticed.

"The aeroplane probably felt more or less under control. The passengers probably would have felt their ears popping as it descended but the aircraft was held in a consistent pattern until it hit the sea," said Guy Gratton of Brunel University and a member of the Royal Aeronautical Society.

The report states that the experienced captain, Marc Dubois, 58, was resting when the Airbus began encountering difficulties, but had been present at a briefing with co-pilots David Robert, 37, and Pierre-Cedric Bonin, 32, shortly beforehand, when they discussed the turbulence ahead. The plane was flying towards a large storm system, a common obstacle on that route.

The pilot flying the plane at the time, who was not identified by the BEA, said: "The little bit of turbulence that you just saw […] we should find the same ahead."

Two hours and 10 minutes into the flight, the computers controlling the flight switched off the autopilot after becoming confused by conflicting speed readings, caused by the icing up of pitot tubes monitoring the plane's velocity.

"There was an inconsistency between the speeds displayed on the left side and the integrated standby instrument system (ISIS). This lasted for less than one minute," the BEA document said.

Unable to calculate speed because monitors were showing an impossible drop from 275 knots to 60 knots, one of the pilots appeared to make a fatal assumption that the plane was flying too fast and was in danger of breaching "coffin corner": the narrow aerodynamic envelope that keeps a plane flying at cruise altitude.

The 37-year-old co-pilot, Robert, then suggested the plane perform a slight turn to the left, which resulted in an increase in turbulence. Two minutes later the plane's serious difficulties became clear as the report describes a flight deck that would have sounded with scores of warning signals as AF447, buffeted by stormclouds and confused by contradictory speed readings, went out of control.

The autopilot disengaged and the pilot took over the controls, uIn the middle of the night over the Atlantic and Buffeted by turbulence, he tried to lift up the plane's nose, in an apparent attempt to slow it down. The A330's stall warning sounded twice, signalling the aerodynamics were not generating enough lift and that AF447 was in danger of losing control, although its twin engines were working normally.

Experts said the pilot was receiving erroneous speed readings although one aviation source said he appeared to contravene standard procedure for a stall which is to pitch the nose down and increase engine thrust.

"You cannot call it pilot error because it may have been caused by reactions to data that was wrong," said Chris Yates, an aviation industry consultant.

At this point the co-pilot was heard saying "we've lost the speeds" and "alternate law", which signals the autopilot has been disengaged.

Seconds later the co-pilot decided to seek the help of Dubois and "tried several times to call the captain back" as another stall warning was issued. To add to the confusion, the speed readings returned to normal but the pilot kept the plane in a nose-up position, slowing it down and keeping the plane in a position where it was not generating enough lift.

By the time the Dubois appeared, just over a minute later, and as the plane began its fatal descent, another stall warning had been issued.

With the plane now rocking and falling at 10,000ft a minute, the pilot acknowledged the terrifying speed of the descent, saying "we're going to arrive at level 100", meaning 10,000ft.

At that point, just over a minute before the recordings stopped, the control sticks were used simultaneously, indicating the battle to control the plane had reached a frantic pitch. The pilot handed control to an unnamed colleague, presumed to be Dubois.

By now the "angle of attack", a critical indication of airflow over the wings, was at more than 35 degrees – nearly triple the outer limits for safe flight.

The BEA said the plane remained stalled throughout its three-and-a-half-minute descent, with the last recorded measurement showing the plane plummeting at 10,912ft per minute. Only 51 bodies were found in the immediate aftermath. Among the dead were five Britons and three young Irish doctors.

Air France said on Fridaythe investigators should be allowed to get on with their inquiry and said its thoughts were with the families of the victims.

In a statement the airline said: "It appears that the crew followed the evolving weather conditions and had changed their route, that the failure of the speed sensors is the initial event that caused the automatic pilot to fail and a loss of the associated flying tools, that the aircraft stalled at high altitude.

"It also appears that the commander on board quickly interrupted his rest to return to the cockpit. The crew fought right to the end to control the plane which is proof of their professionalism and Air France would like to pay its respects to them."
A pilot's analysis

You look at this as an A330 pilot and it's a case of there but for the grace of God. The first sign of trouble was the expectation of turbulence voiced by the first officer. He reduced the speed in anticipation to Mach 0.82, which is normal, and warned the crew. Shortly after entering the turbulence and associated ice, the autopilot disengaged and the first officer commented that the flight control computers had disconnected. This happened because the computers were no longer receiving speed information and neither were the pilots.

I cannot speculate why the pilot climbed the aircraft but it could have been due to confusion caused by the turbulence and sudden instrument failure. The controls at very high altitude are very sensitive and there is only a very small speed envelope, often called "coffin corner", where only a few knots of speed up or down can cause a stall.

So you are flying in this little window of a flight envelope which is perfectly normal and, indeed, you do it every day. But if you are suddenly handed control of an aircraft you can breathe on that little stick and the aircraft can go down one degree. In a very short space of time lost speed and stalled, causing it to fall from the sky. Despite what the pilots must have been going through in the cockpit, the pitch attitude remained fairly constant throughout so the passengers would not have sensed something was seriously wrong. They would have felt mild buffeting of the stalled airflow over the wings and the initial sinking feeling. That's all.

I feel a lot of empathy for the pilots. One could imagine suddenly suffering a total loss of airspeed indication in turbulence in the middle of the night and with all the autopilot systems suddenly failing. The indications, both visual and aural, would have been very confusing. The question for me is why did the instruments that are triple redundant, which means that there are three back-ups, all fail together?

Anonymous A330 pilot

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Offline Mad Men

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #330 on: May 28, 2011, 05:59:04 AM »
NTSB Focuses On Two A330 Jet Incidents
Alan Levin, USA TODAY, 25 Jun 2009

U.S. aviation accident investigators have launched probes into two recent incidents aboard Airbus A330 jets that appear to have similarities to the failures reported on the Air France jet that disappeared over the Atlantic Ocean on June 1.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) said Thursday it is looking into incidents on Northwest Airlines and Brazil's TAM Airlines in which pilots on the long-range, wide body jet received apparently erroneous airspeed and altitude data.

The investigation into the disappearance of Air France Flight 447, an A330 with 228 people aboard, has focused on the apparent failures of air pressure sensors that measure a jet's speed. The sensors are known as Pitot tubes. Data messages sent from the jet to an Air France maintenance computer indicated that the sensors failed minutes before the plane went down.

The failure of external air pressure sensors occur relatively frequently on all types of aircraft without serious consequences, according to federal aviation data bases. However, the failures can lead to critical problems if pilots do not respond properly and such failures have been linked to at least four fatal crashes around the world.

The NTSB, which is assisting French investigators in the Air France investigation, said it is looking into a Northwest flight from Hong Kong to Tokyo on Tuesday during which apparent similar failures occurred. The NTSB is collecting flight recorders, maintenance data, weather information and statements from the crew, the agency said. The flight landed safely in Tokyo.

In another incident on May 21, TAM Flight 8091 from Miami to São Paulo lost speed and altitude information in the cockpit, the NTSB said.

The crew noticed a rapid drop in outside temperature while cruising, followed by several abrupt failures. The autopilot and throttle controls disconnected and the crew lost speed and altitude information, the NTSB said.

The crew was able to fly the plane using backup instruments. Speed and altitude information returned after about five minutes and the plane landed safely in São Paulo.

The incidents could shed light on the Air France investigation. Last year, Airbus advised airlines to replace Pitot tubes on A330s because they could provide erroneous readings in bad weather, but many airlines have not completed the switch.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...hooModule_News
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Offline CHOPPER

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #332 on: May 28, 2011, 07:16:50 AM »
I remember reading an article about a similar plane crash about 8 years ago(think the crash was 2 years prior) and once again it all centred around the Pitot tubes and how they'd frozen due to super chilled rain water (even though being heated) and how basically when in auto pilot they froze and kidded the system that the aircraft wasn't actually moving; which it then started to shut the engines down and caused the plane to stall and once the stall began the pilots instruments went haywire as the system couldn't equate the aircraft to be at an angle whilst, to it's own mind thinking it was stationery. The plane then went into a stall and free fall and the pilots didn't have the knowledge/experience to understand what the aircraft's instruments we saying and couldn't take the aircraft out of the stall and subsequent crash. If I also remember rightly it was an American Airlines flight and one of the actions after this crash was to start a training plan with it's long haul pilots on how to recognise the signs of a stall and how to pilot out of it.
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #333 on: May 28, 2011, 05:27:05 PM »
I remember reading an article about a similar plane crash about 8 years ago(think the crash was 2 years prior) and once again it all centred around the Pitot tubes and how they'd frozen due to super chilled rain water (even though being heated) and how basically when in auto pilot they froze and kidded the system that the aircraft wasn't actually moving; which it then started to shut the engines down and caused the plane to stall and once the stall began the pilots instruments went haywire as the system couldn't equate the aircraft to be at an angle whilst, to it's own mind thinking it was stationery. The plane then went into a stall and free fall and the pilots didn't have the knowledge/experience to understand what the aircraft's instruments we saying and couldn't take the aircraft out of the stall and subsequent crash. If I also remember rightly it was an American Airlines flight and one of the actions after this crash was to start a training plan with it's long haul pilots on how to recognise the signs of a stall and how to pilot out of it.

It isn't a case of understanding or not understanding what the flight instruments are saying. It's about the instruments giving the wrong information and putting the flight deck crew in a situation where just about everything they do leads to a fatal ending.

Especially fatal in dead of night.
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Offline CHOPPER

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #334 on: May 28, 2011, 05:36:36 PM »
It isn't a case of understanding or not understanding what the flight instruments are saying. It's about the instruments giving the wrong information and putting the flight deck crew in a situation where just about everything they do leads to a fatal ending.

Especially fatal in dead of night.

Exactly, that's why in the incident I mentioned they simulated the crash and what sent the Instrument all over the show is that the system believes it's actually on the ground as there is no airflow through the Pitot tubes (usually 3 or 4 on an aircraft) and added to that whilst it thinks it's on the ground it's instruments can't equate how it is showing it is at an angle of pitch. And as you hit on, at night the pilot himself can't judge his position on the horizon.

The training that was or will have been rolled out was delivered by fighter pilots who are trained to deal with such instances and know how to pilot out a stall/free fall without using there instrumentation as a guide as most commercial pilots rely entirely on what their instrumentation is showing them and especially at night.
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Offline TSC

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #335 on: May 29, 2011, 12:11:39 AM »
Reading those reports and last comments from you guys, fuck this flying caper.

Offline Tony Drago

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #336 on: June 9, 2011, 01:28:36 AM »
The "interim" BEA report is just that, interim. There are some basic facts presented but nothing on precisely what action was taken and why. The following facts are clear however.

* Airspeed (fed by Pitot-static system) was unreliable for a short while, this in itself shouldn't prevent an aircraft from maintaining flight.
* The aircraft climbed by 3,0000 feet to 38,000 feet in less than a minute before starting to descend.
* The autopilot disconnected and handed over control to the pilot
* Said pilot tried to direct the nose of the aircraft both up, down and up again during the 4 minutes from autopilot disconnect to crashing.


The considered opinion from PPrune.org is that the horizontal stabilizer settings and the pilots ability to trim these settings in the differing "laws" of Airbuses caused some confusion. It appears the plane had stalled and the pilots either took the incorrect corrective action or the aircraft responded differently to how they were expecting or a combination of both. The consensus is that the pilots pitched the nose down (which is correct action in a stall) but this made the stall warning sound again so they reveresed this and pulled the nose up.

My opinion is that fault will be found with the following

*Pilots following incorrect procedure once autopilot disconnected.
*Captain taking his rest knowing his crew were about to fly into a severe storm cell
* Air France for not replacing dubious pitot's in a timely manner
* Airbus stall warning system which activates when plane is about to stall but disconnects when plane is actually stalled only to kick in again once stall is close (even if close to coming out of stall) will be severely criticised.
* Horizontal stabliser functioning in alternate law for pilots is not clear, again airbus clarification and further pilot training required.

Offline Mad Men

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #337 on: June 9, 2011, 02:04:21 AM »
The "interim" BEA report is just that, interim. There are some basic facts presented but nothing on precisely what action was taken and why. The following facts are clear however.

* Airspeed (fed by Pitot-static system) was unreliable for a short while, this in itself shouldn't prevent an aircraft from maintaining flight.
* The aircraft climbed by 3,0000 feet to 38,000 feet in less than a minute before starting to descend.
* The autopilot disconnected and handed over control to the pilot
* Said pilot tried to direct the nose of the aircraft both up, down and up again during the 4 minutes from autopilot disconnect to crashing.


The considered opinion from PPrune.org is that the horizontal stabilizer settings and the pilots ability to trim these settings in the differing "laws" of Airbuses caused some confusion. It appears the plane had stalled and the pilots either took the incorrect corrective action or the aircraft responded differently to how they were expecting or a combination of both. The consensus is that the pilots pitched the nose down (which is correct action in a stall) but this made the stall warning sound again so they reveresed this and pulled the nose up.

My opinion is that fault will be found with the following

*Pilots following incorrect procedure once autopilot disconnected.
*Captain taking his rest knowing his crew were about to fly into a severe storm cell
* Air France for not replacing dubious pitot's in a timely manner
* Airbus stall warning system which activates when plane is about to stall but disconnects when plane is actually stalled only to kick in again once stall is close (even if close to coming out of stall) will be severely criticised.
* Horizontal stabliser functioning in alternate law for pilots is not clear, again airbus clarification and further pilot training required.


Sorry, need to ask this: you have an ATPL license or a PPL license of some sort? Just trying to understand how you came to these conclusions that the pilots "following incorrect procedures....captain taking his rest knowing his crew were about to..."

Pilots fly through STORMS of all kinds all the time especially in Europe.... You assume the two co-pilots were in-experinced which isn't the case and are poorly trained to handle situations like these which again, I doubt. All airlines including Air France have refresher simulator courses every 6 months to go over these exact scenarios and how to respond to chaotic situations from engine failures to re-starting engines in flight to complete computer failures and so forth.

It is a NORM for the captain to rest whilst the "cruising crew" take over for the flight. The co-pilots reacted as any pilot would...try to avoid the storm and de-activate the auto pilot. When the situation seemed "difficult" they requested the captain to come to the cockpit..and he did in 1 minute (according to the records).

The very fact the aircraft was essentially nose up for that short period of time should tell you they were obviously getting the wrong information and readings. No pilot in their right mind would nose up whilst in a stall UNLESS they were being fed the wrong information.

If it happened in day time, MAYBE, it MIGHT have made a difference in how they reacted. But I know incidents whereby the pilots were getting the wrong speeds have resulted in crashes in the day time as well because the pilots were to engrossed with other things going wrong at the same time that they stalled and were not able to recover...it does happen.

« Last Edit: June 9, 2011, 07:09:44 AM by Mad Men »
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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #338 on: June 9, 2011, 06:56:33 AM »
Ive flown Mad Men. Ok was only a cessna but it was a dream of mine. Anyhow , i was flying and we went through very thick cloud, and to say its scary and very disorientating is an understatement. Its a weird feeling and the fact i had to fly looking down at the guages was hard seeing as a car driver you dont look down. It was a very weird few minutes. As if someone had basically taken the world away. Hard to explain but im sure you get me. So these pilots, imo, from what ive read did the right thing according to the data at hand. Im a sad FSX online simmer so i get the basics of flight. Im rambling. Im going.
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Offline Mad Men

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #339 on: June 9, 2011, 07:04:24 AM »
Ive flown Mad Men. Ok was only a cessna but it was a dream of mine. Anyhow , i was flying and we went through very thick cloud, and to say its scary and very disorientating is an understatement. Its a weird feeling and the fact i had to fly looking down at the guages was hard seeing as a car driver you dont look down. It was a very weird few minutes. As if someone had basically taken the world away. Hard to explain but im sure you get me. So these pilots, imo, from what ive read did the right thing according to the data at hand. Im a sad FSX online simmer so i get the basics of flight. Im rambling. Im going.

Spot on mate. You need to have flown or even have some experince in the cockpit in a "stressed" environment to understand how complicated it can get VERY VERY FAST especially when visibility becomes an issue. At least you understand what it's like to be in a situation like that and my reading of the information that is available thus far is the crew did their best to handle a very very volatile situation and as far as I can tell.

I def. get what you mean. I have done a lot of sim hours but am NOT an airline pilot but have sat on the right hand seat enough times to understand somewhat and to also respect the fact it's not as easy as some people think it is when things go south.
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Offline Tony Drago

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #340 on: June 9, 2011, 10:50:22 PM »
Sorry, need to ask this: you have an ATPL license or a PPL license of some sort?

1,500 hours on type (A330), 6,000 hours total FO here.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not blaming the crew per se. It's more a case of reading between the lines in the report. If flying into severe weather at night there isn't a cat in hells chance I would let my captain take his rest (moreover every cpt I've ever flown with wouldn't have even thought of doing so. In addition, when the AP gives out the primary responsibility of the PF is to do just that, fly the aircraft, given what the BEA interim report states regarding the initial zoom to FL380 after the AP kicked out it would appear this climb was as a result of a nose up input and the application of TOGA power. Upon reaching FL380 the aircraft stalled and in the following 4 minutes the crew failed to respond to the dramatically reducing altitude and aside from one brief nose down command on the sidestick, persisted with a nose up attitude,.

There will be several pointers of blame and the crew must take some responsibility. Perhaps the biggest blame though will lie in the training of how different systems respond under of differing bus laws along with the stall warning issue which frankly is very worrying. It is my belief that the crew were unaware of what control they had over the THS in alternate law. Too many bus crews are inexperienced in hand flying the aircraft and when the autopilot kicked out they couldn't handle it. They must've known that the airspeed readings were eroneous.

I'd also point out that sim training with respect to cruise altitude stalls (as opposed to approach to stall) is practically non existent.
« Last Edit: June 9, 2011, 10:53:04 PM by Tony Drago »

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #341 on: June 9, 2011, 11:27:38 PM »
1,500 hours on type (A330), 6,000 hours total FO here.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not blaming the crew per se. It's more a case of reading between the lines in the report. If flying into severe weather at night there isn't a cat in hells chance I would let my captain take his rest (moreover every cpt I've ever flown with wouldn't have even thought of doing so. In addition, when the AP gives out the primary responsibility of the PF is to do just that, fly the aircraft, given what the BEA interim report states regarding the initial zoom to FL380 after the AP kicked out it would appear this climb was as a result of a nose up input and the application of TOGA power. Upon reaching FL380 the aircraft stalled and in the following 4 minutes the crew failed to respond to the dramatically reducing altitude and aside from one brief nose down command on the sidestick, persisted with a nose up attitude,.

There will be several pointers of blame and the crew must take some responsibility. Perhaps the biggest blame though will lie in the training of how different systems respond under of differing bus laws along with the stall warning issue which frankly is very worrying. It is my belief that the crew were unaware of what control they had over the THS in alternate law. Too many bus crews are inexperienced in hand flying the aircraft and when the autopilot kicked out they couldn't handle it. They must've known that the airspeed readings were eroneous.

I'd also point out that sim training with respect to cruise altitude stalls (as opposed to approach to stall) is practically non existent.

This. 

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #342 on: June 10, 2011, 12:09:14 AM »
1,500 hours on type (A330), 6,000 hours total FO here.

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not blaming the crew per se. It's more a case of reading between the lines in the report. If flying into severe weather at night there isn't a cat in hells chance I would let my captain take his rest (moreover every cpt I've ever flown with wouldn't have even thought of doing so. In addition, when the AP gives out the primary responsibility of the PF is to do just that, fly the aircraft, given what the BEA interim report states regarding the initial zoom to FL380 after the AP kicked out it would appear this climb was as a result of a nose up input and the application of TOGA power. Upon reaching FL380 the aircraft stalled and in the following 4 minutes the crew failed to respond to the dramatically reducing altitude and aside from one brief nose down command on the sidestick, persisted with a nose up attitude,.

There will be several pointers of blame and the crew must take some responsibility. Perhaps the biggest blame though will lie in the training of how different systems respond under of differing bus laws along with the stall warning issue which frankly is very worrying. It is my belief that the crew were unaware of what control they had over the THS in alternate law. Too many bus crews are inexperienced in hand flying the aircraft and when the autopilot kicked out they couldn't handle it. They must've known that the airspeed readings were eroneous.

I'd also point out that sim training with respect to cruise altitude stalls (as opposed to approach to stall) is practically non existent.

Fair enough then.
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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #343 on: June 16, 2011, 02:04:12 PM »
THOSE AREN'T FINGERS. THOSE ARE SCARF TASSELLS.

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #344 on: June 16, 2011, 02:48:49 PM »
bloody hell, just read up on this, I know nothing about flying and whatnot but I just did a quick search on air crashes caused by these pitot tube things giving false readings by freezing and I found about 8, surely they would work on some system to keep them defrosted by now bloody hell, scares me enough shaking in turbulence without this shit, I need to stay out of these threads lol :/
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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #345 on: June 16, 2011, 08:28:37 PM »
Flying is a piece of piss, try driving around Madrid or Rome
and my brother tells me that Sicily is even worse, don`t blow
your horn or stick your fingers up at anyone.............. ;D

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #346 on: June 17, 2011, 05:14:13 AM »
Flying is a piece of piss, try driving around Madrid or Rome
and my brother tells me that Sicily is even worse, don`t blow
your horn or stick your fingers up at anyone.............. ;D

Wait till you drive in downtown Bangkok before/after work or Jakarta. It's worse!
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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #347 on: June 17, 2011, 09:00:02 AM »
1,500 hours on type (A330), 6,000 hours total FO here.


I think this is the finest RAWK comeback ever. ;D
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Offline Graeme

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #348 on: June 17, 2011, 09:01:50 AM »
I thought that :D

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #349 on: June 17, 2011, 09:06:21 AM »
I think this is the finest RAWK comeback ever. ;D

I would rank it as the GREATEST comback's of all time. It deserves recognition Mikey..:)
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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #350 on: June 17, 2011, 09:16:11 AM »
Fair enough then.

And this is the most owned response. ;D
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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #351 on: June 17, 2011, 09:20:52 AM »
With the article saying how some airlines haven't replaced pitot tubes, I wonder exactly how much they cost.  Reminds me of the Ford Pinto scandal where they did a cost-benefit analysis and let more dangerous parts hit the roads as it was more cost-effective.
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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #352 on: June 17, 2011, 09:37:18 AM »
And this is the most owned response. ;D

Totally. The purest! ;)
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Offline Tony Drago

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #353 on: July 29, 2011, 02:36:57 PM »
Unfortunately my previous suppositions appear to have been somewhat kind on the flight crew. The BEA today issued a further updated interim report and it is quite scathing towards the flight crew however does provide recomendations as regard to training. it also appears to make no mention of any fault or issue with the aircraft (though I am still very cynical about the stall warning that came back on whilst the aircraft was in a nose down attitude).

Too many bus crews are inexperienced in hand flying the aircraft and when the autopilot kicked out they couldn't handle it. They must've known that the airspeed readings were eroneous.

I'd also point out that sim training with respect to cruise altitude stalls (as opposed to approach to stall) is practically non existent.

Hopefully the BEA, CAA and FAA will mandate this one particular recomendation as part of type rating.

Quote
The first recommends that the regulatory authorities re-examine the content of training and check
programmes and in particular make mandatory the creation of regular specific exercises aimed at manual
airplane handling. Approach to and recovery from stall, including at high altitude

Full report and recommendations available below.

http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flight.af.447/flight.af.447.php


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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #354 on: August 31, 2011, 01:49:06 AM »

Thanks for your post.

They don't do full stall training? Er why? And if I read you correctly, once as a pilot I have corrected a stall situation, my reward is a new stall warning making me go into pandemonium?
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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #355 on: August 31, 2011, 07:19:47 AM »
Showed a pilot in Alaska this thread
  Today and he did titter when Tony piped up

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #356 on: October 20, 2011, 10:26:45 PM »
The BEA aren't happy but the final couple of minutes of the CVR have been released leaked and go as follows. I continue to believe that the pilots were partially at fault though serious fault will be found with Air France lack of high altitute stall training in the sim.

Marc Dubois (captain): 'Get your wings horizontal.'
David Robert (pilot): 'Level your wings.'
Pierre-Cedric Bonin (pilot): 'That's what I'm trying to do... What the... how is it we are going down like this?'
Robert: 'See what you can do with the commands up there, the primaries and so on…Climb climb, climb, climb.'
Bonin: 'But I have been pulling back on the stick all the way for a while.'
Dubois: 'No, no, no, don't climb.'
Robert: 'Ok give me control, give me control.'
Dubois: 'Watch out you are pulling up.'
Robert: 'Am I?'
Bonin: 'Well you should, we are at 4,000.'
As they approach the water, the on-board computer is heard to announce: 'Sink rate. Pull up, pull up, pull up.'
To which Captain Dubois reacts with the words: 'Go on: pull.'
Bonin: 'We're pulling, pulling, pulling, pulling.'
The crew never discuss the possibility that they are about to crash, instead concentrating on trying to right the plane throughout the final four minutes.
Dubois: 'Ten degrees pitch.'
Robert: 'Go back up!…Go back up!…Go back up!… Go back up!'
Bonin: 'But I’ve been going down at maximum level for a while.'
Dubois: 'No, No, No!… Don’t go up !… No, No!'
Bonin: 'Go down, then!' (a poorly expressed exhortation to lower the nose?)
Robert: 'Damn it! We’re going to crash. It can’t be true!'
Bonin: 'But what’s happening?!'

Offline Tony Drago

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #357 on: October 20, 2011, 10:32:36 PM »
Showed a pilot in Alaska this thread
  Today and he did titter when Tony piped up

Bit confused by what you mean by this

Offline kavah

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #358 on: October 21, 2011, 12:29:27 AM »
Bit confused by what you mean by this

just a thread on a football website with a load of non-experts speculating about what might have happened and then your validation of your thoughts ie

1,500 hours on type (A330), 6,000 hours total FO here.


clear as mud ?  :D

PS thanks for posting that transcript - fascinating and terrifying

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Re: French jet missing over the Atlantic
« Reply #359 on: October 21, 2011, 09:01:01 PM »
There seem to be so many crashes caused by stalling or unexpectedly low airspeed, would it not be a good idea for protocols suggesting increased thrust when in a crisis like this?

I'm sure this is horribly simplistic and probably wrong, but seems quite obvious to my layman eyes
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