Topic: Liverpool will never embrace future with one foot in past - Times Article

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Did you miss the bit where I said Arsenal have had a rough few years?  For nearly a decade Arsenal competed with Utd without having anywhere near the financial mussle.

and MYTH?  Is that the same myth that am sure you will claim Benítez doesn't spend loads?

Arsenal have had a rough few years, since Benitez was here - so putting them forward as a model of spendthrift success is frankly irrelevant, seeing as since we've had 'big spender' Rafa we've consistently done better in one way or another. I would say Arsenal competed with the Mancs between 1996 and 2004 yes, but even then the game was different. Wenger was one of the first to introduce new methods etc. and reaped success with canny buys from abroad, in a time before the Prem was fully flooded with overseas players. But that was then - those same methods aren't working as well anymore for him.

Arsenal are a London club and I refuse to believe that they don't have financial muscle quite frankly. Spurs always seem to do OK despite winning fuck all. Their season ticket costs and directors boxes must bring in a ton more than ours do.

And as for the myth of Benitez' spending, there have been enough posts on here that illustrate exactly what he's spent, go read one of them. But you can't, see, because it might shatter your blinkered view of him. You'd hate him however much money he spent so why argue it's about that? People have proved we consistently underspend the two teams above us, so what do you expect?

[xavidub]

Good Article and horribly accurate.

Just resupports the fact that we need new owners with money for the stadium and on the pitch.

[Curva Nord '77]

You do realise you are now quoting Hicks to back up your argument.  We are miles behind Man Utd.  They are in an uncatchable position financially.  But because Tom Hicks said we can then it must be true.

Did you miss the bit where I said Arsenal have had a rough few years?  For nearly a decade Arsenal competed with Utd without having anywhere near the financial mussle.

and MYTH?  Is that the same myth that am sure you will claim Benítez doesn't spend loads?

He may not be the owner we would want but as his mega-millions might suggest, I think he knows how to make money better than you or I do. He currently does not want to break his association with the club, I suggest that is because that he sees the opportunity to make serious cash going forward.

[freddwarf]

Quote from Kay's article "Liverpool simply cannot compete".Well the facts don't really show that and in fact...in FACT Rafa since '04 when he became manager has signed 49 players as opposed to 18 by Fergie.We have outspent United by a staggering 24 million pounds in that time.

www.transferleague.co.uk

So on the money side we have competed with United and the facts show we are way ahead of United in terms of net spend.So would you all stop back slapping Kay for what was a very average article.

I have spoken.

[therockbox]

Quote from Kay's article "Liverpool simply cannot compete".

Ignoring the fact that the rest of your post was full of horseshit, he was saying Liverpool can't compete with Man Utd's turnover and commercial revenues, you empty vessel.

[lfcderek]

Riera money well spent.
Pennant - shite
Bellamy - shite buy
Lucas - shite
Dossena - shite
Agger, Skrtel, Reina - All quality buys.

Lets tell a full story shall we?

Albert Riera   8,000,000
Álvaro Arbeloa   2,500,000
Andrea Dossena   7,000,000
Andriy Voronin   Free*               
Antonio Barragan   240,000      £675,000
Antonio Nunez   £1,500,000         £2M
Besian Idrizaj   £190,000*          Free
Boudewijn Zenden   Free
Charles Itandje   Undisclosed       
Craig Bellamy   6,000,000           £7.5M
Daniel Agger   5,800,000
David Martin   £250,000           
David Ngog   1,500,000
Diego Cavalieri   3,500,000
Dirk Kuyt   9,000,000
Emiliano Insúa   £1,300,000
Fábio Aurélio   Free
Fernando Morientes   6,300,000      £3M
Fernando Torres   20,200,000
Francisco Durán    £66,000
Gabriel Paletta   2,000,000
Godwin Antwi   Unknown                £1.2
Jack Hobbs   £150,000*
Jan Kromkamp   Player Exchange*
Javier Mascherano   17,000,000
Jermaine Pennant   6,700,000       Free
Jordy Brouwer   Undisclosed*
Jose Reina   6,000,000
Josemi Rey   2,000,000               Player Exchange
Lucas Leiva   5,000,000
Luis Garcia   6,000,000              £4M
Mark Gonzalez   £1,500,000            £3.5M
Martin Skrtel   6,500,000
Mauricio Pellegrino   Free
Mikel San José    270,000
Miki Roque   Unknown
Mohamed Sissoko   5,600,000      £8.2M
Nabil El Zhar   200,000
Paul Anderson   Player Exchange
Peter Crouch   7,000,000              £11M
Philipp Degen   Free*
Robbie Keane   19,000,000            £16M
Ronald Huth   Undisclosed
Ryan Babel   11,500,000
Scott Carson   1,000,000              £3.25M
Sebastian Leto   1,800,000
Xabi Alonso   10,700,000
Yossi Benayoun   5,000,000

By my reckoning that means that Benitez has made a loss of £1.9M on players that he has both bought and sold.

In amongst these deals he did of course get 3 great years service from each of Crouch, Momo and Luis - plus a year from Bellamy who you called shite and on whom Benitez made £1.5M.

All in all - a bloody brilliant record when being forced to deal in the bargin basement from lack of cash.

[Rock-N-Red]

Quote from Kay's article "Liverpool simply cannot compete".Well the facts don't really show that and in fact...in FACT Rafa since '04 when he became manager has signed 49 players as opposed to 18 by Fergie.We have outspent United by a staggering 24 million pounds in that time.

www.transferleague.co.uk

So on the money side we have competed with United and the facts show we are way ahead of United in terms of net spend.So would you all stop back slapping Kay for what was a very average article.

I have spoken.

Let me yet again attempt to correct this mistaken issue over our net spend. Sites like Transferleague and Soccerbase only paint part of the picture because they do not include undisclosed spending, or even worse only include selective estimates of undisclosed spending. On many occasions the level of such fees are fairly widely known. My earlier post, included below, includes details from of our net spend from two sites that attempt a more accurate estimate:

I think we need to dispel, once and for all, the assertion that Liverpool have spent big. It simply isn’t the case. You need to look at net spend, i.e. money spent on new players minus income from the sale of players. Here are links to two pages that do exactly this in great detail since Rafa arrived at Anfield.

http://www.liverweb.org.uk/Benítez.asp

http://www.anfield-online.co.uk/stats/transfers.htm


The first arrives at the following figures:

Total Purchases 171,425,000

Total Sales 105,980,000

Net Spend £65,44.000


The second  calculates the totals to be:

Total Purchases £190,616,000

Total Sales £108,375,000

Net Spend £82,410,000



The reason for the discrepancy is that many transfer fees both in and out are undisclosed. The author of each web page has made slightly different assumptions as to these undisclosed fees based on the best information available at the time. If you assume however, that the net spend is between £67 million and £85 million since Benítez arrived, a range of £18 million, you should be pretty close to the truth. That means an average net spend in each of the five transfer windows of about £16 million. A quick calculation reveals that during the first transfer window under the americans we spent a net of about £18 - £20 million, during the second season we spent a net of roughly zero. That’s an average of about £9 - £10 million. So we were actually spending more before they arrived.

Given the fact that the Club’s income from the Champions League alone has topped £100 million under Benítez, there is no that you can say that we have spent big relative to our income. Other Clubs like Villa have outspent us and they haven’t had any income from the Champions League at all.

The truth is that our Champions League income is now needed simply to repay the interest on the loans taken out to buy the Club. It’s difficult to see how the situation can improve without some form of cash injection - but wasn’t that what the americans were supposed to provide in the first place?

[*]

I think we need to dispel, once and for all, the assertion that Liverpool have spent big. It simply isn’t the case. You need to look at net spend, i.e. money spent on new players minus income from the sale of players. Here are links to two pages that do exactly this in great detail since Rafa arrived at Anfield.

If we keep on buying players to fuck them off after one season we'll always have a healthier net spend than clubs like United buying Ferdinand for big money and holding on to them until they retire or their value is nothing like Roy Keane when he left.

Also in Rafa's time here, United has a net spend of about 18-19mil a year. If they were to sell Ronaldo to Real this summer it'll bring that net spend to less than 10mil a year. So I think it's flawed to just look at the net spend.

[freddwarf]

Let me yet again attempt to correct this mistaken issue over our net spend. Sites like Transferleague and Soccerbase only paint part of the picture because they do not include undisclosed spending, or even worse only include selective estimates of undisclosed spending. On many occasions the level of such fees are fairly widely known. My earlier post, included below, includes details from of our net spend from two sites that attempt a more accurate estimate:

You have a lot of estimates in your figures.According to the transfer league site the only undisclosed transfer is Le Tallec and that wouldn't have been more than half a million at most.Their figures show Rafa buying 49 players pending 214m, fergie buying 18 players at 24 m less than us.

There may well be some dispute over the totals but what is not in dispute is the number of players rafa has brought in.

[timiano]

Rafa buying 49 players pending 214m, fergie buying 18 players at 24 m less than us.

Wouldn't those figures highlight the fact that Rafa inherited quite a lot of shite, and has had to evolve a squad step by step. And, that Fergie already had a well established base and only needed to add serious bits of quality to maintain it.

18 vs 49 players, with only a 24m difference. Basing our progress against Utd with those stats is completely flawed, as they are competing in a different ball game.

[Gnurglan]

Money, money, money.

While I wish we could have more of it (always the case, isn't it?), football is about more than money.

And there's a huge difference between the money Rafa has spent and the money Ferguson has spent during the same time. Ferguson had to develop and improve his team. Rafa had to build it first. Realistically we will see us focus on less players/season, but spend more on the ones we sign from now on.

[*]

I wonder how much the signing on fees for that 49 players bought in that period cost? A Alves and/or a Simao maybe.

[freddwarf]

Anfield on line has Lucas in at 5m,LFCDerek the above poster has him coming in at 6m, whereas Transfer league .co has him at 9m.

But it is abundantly clear that WE HAVE competed with United in terms of net spend. And Rafa has had control of transfers. So his gripe that he needs more control is an excuse.Getting shut of Keane the way he did was very shoddy.

Claiming that Keane hadn't come to terms with playing for a top 4 club was ridiculous, maybe we should get rid of Rafa because as far as I, and many others can see...He hasn't come to terms with managing in the English Premier league.

[timiano]

I wonder how much the signing on fees for that 49 players bought in that period cost? A Alves and/or a Simao maybe.

We could have done a Man City and splashed squillions on one player - and look where that got them. Squad building isn't about just buying the right pieces. It's about evolution. We have to go through the Craig Bellamys, the Pennants, the Nunezs so we can get to the Torreses of the world.

[Gareth Keenan]

We could have done a Man City and splashed squillions on one player - and look where that got them. Squad building isn't about just buying the right pieces. It's about evolution. We have to go through the Craig Bellamys, the Pennants, the Nunezs so we can get to the Torreses of the world.

We didn't mate, we could of attracted the Torresses of the world at any time. Were Liverpool FC not Man City.

[therockbox]

We didn't mate, we could've attracted the Torresses of the world at any time. Were Liverpool FC not Man City.

You've spectacularly missed his point.  Just going out and jizzing your entire budget on one players is incredibly short sighted.  You need to build a squad and then add the Torreseseseses (sorry, had to be done) later.

[lfcderek]

Also in Rafa's time here, United has a net spend of about 18-19mil a year. If they were to sell Ronaldo to Real this summer it'll bring that net spend to less than 10mil a year. So I think it's flawed to just look at the net spend.

And if we sold Torres in the summer then our net spend would plummet.

Net spend is 'iffy' - it depends on the quality of the squad when you start counting and the quality of the squad when you finish counting.

In the summer of 04 when Rafa arrived ours was crap and united's was superb.

A better measure? The transfer cost of united's squad is approx £240M - ours is approx £125M.

Difficult (!!!) to compete with a team that often brings £30M players off the bench.

[freddwarf]

Well look again gents.

Fergie has bought 18 players, Rafa has brought in 49 or 53, if you agree with the Anfield on line site. Ok the money might be roughly the same but lets face it while Rafa might not be light years behind Old Red nose he is for sure a few light months adrift.

[therockbox]

Well look again gents.

Fergie has bought 18 players, Rafa has brought in 49 or 53, if you agree with the Anfield on line site. Ok the money might be roughly the same but lets face it while Rafa might not be light years behind Old Red nose he is for sure a few light months adrift.

When Rafa took over he had to rebuild an entire squad starting from scratch.  Man Utd just needed to add to what was essentially a finished article.

Do you disagree with this?

[freddwarf]

"In the summer of '04 our squad was crap"....would this be basically the squad that won the champions league...Rafa's main claim to fame..

[therockbox]

"In the summer of '04 our squad was crap"....would this be basically the squad that won the champions league...Rafa's main claim to fame..

And?  Surely this just proves how well he did to win that tournament that year?

[timiano]

"In the summer of '04 our squad was crap"....would this be basically the squad that won the champions league...Rafa's main claim to fame..

And a testament to wondrous tactics and management in a knock out cup; which he has proved on a regular basis. The league is a different beast, you know it, I know it, Rafa knows it. For that you must evolve bit by bit, or spend amazing amounts like Chelsea.

[TLT]

Totally agree.

I made this post yesterday, which basically echoes much of what was said in this article. I am in the wrong job 

It isn't just about Transfer money. I think we have had  reasonable share, and made some good (and some bad) signings. The problem for me is simple, the stadium, which leads to the owners, which leads to money, which leads to the stadium.

A vicious circle you would think?

Let me explain.

United have a stadium of 76,000. We have 45,000. United have 31,000 extra seats. Say (on average) each person spends £50 on a match day. That is the ticket, the seat, and pies/beer/etc. Well that means United have a match day income of £1.5million more than we do. Add to that they have more sponsors and better marketing, they are light years ahead of us.

£1.5million a home game MORE. They actually get closer to £3.9million pounds, per game. Say (including Cups) they have 25 home games. That is near on £100 million pounds just from match day income.

Our match day income (again £50 per person). Is £2.2million pounds per game. That over the season is just over £50million. So you can see the difference straight away.

Had the stadium been built when it should have been, then things may have been different. Suddenly the turnover and income at the club is greatly increased. And this can either be stuck into a pot, and spent at the end of the season on a quality player. Or, it could increase our wage budget.

Remember, a player costing £20million doesn't just cost that. He is likely going to cost you £50k+ a week too, if not more. So who pays his wages? Probably the weekly matchday income. This is why, when we sign a player, we have to sell. Not to raise the funds, but to keep the wages within budget.

Do you think we would have Pennant out on loan if we didn't have too? Look at it this way. Pennant had a good contract at Liverpool say £40K a week (not 100% sure but I bet it was). He isn't playing or in the long term plans. So lets loan him out, Pompey can pay his wages, and we have El Zhar a young reserve player who is maybe on max of £10K a week (if not much less). I am not saying Pennant is the greatest player in the world, but he was a reasonable member of our squad.

Same could be said of players like Sissoko. Sold, but not replaced. We brought in Plessis, probably on less money a week and can do a job. But the problem is, Sissoko and Pennant are better players than Plessis and El Zhar.

Other examples of this? Garcia and Benayoun, Crouch and Ngog. You could possibly throw Vorononin in there.

Now let me just say,  I am not saying that Garcia and Crouch were sold to save on the wage budget. They went because partly they wanted to, and it was the right move for everyone (no point in having un-happy players at the club) but the problem is, are there replacements any better? No. Are they as good? Benayoun, maybe. But what they are doing is saving us money each week.

Finally, Robbie Keane. Sold but not replaced. Why? He was on a big wage, we got 3/4's of his fee back. Was it time, wasn't the right player available? Or was it because Keane was innefective, costing us money each week, and we had David Ngog who is on about 1/4 of Keane's wages. So he can step in, right? No way.

So, until we get the new stadium, we wont have such luxuries. Our XI can compete. But our bench isn't full of international players, with international transfer fee's, and with international wages. It is full of reserves, who are on small wages, who have little or no experience, and are not up to the standard.

So what is the answer? The stadium. How do we do it? We need money. How do we get that? The stadium. A vicious circle, that will continue. Until something, somehow, changes.

[freddwarf]

Well the current squad is the worst yet under Rafa. The amount of players who aren't good enough is as long as your arm.If Rafa is shown the door or more likely walks away the new manager will be left a fer bigger headache than the one Rafa inheritted From Uncle Ged.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

Anfield on line has Lucas in at 5m,LFCDerek the above poster has him coming in at 6m, whereas Transfer league .co has him at 9m.

But it is abundantly clear that WE HAVE competed with United in terms of net spend. And Rafa has had control of transfers. So his gripe that he needs more control is an excuse.Getting shut of Keane the way he did was very shoddy.

Claiming that Keane hadn't come to terms with playing for a top 4 club was ridiculous, maybe we should get rid of Rafa because as far as I, and many others can see...He hasn't come to terms with managing in the English Premier league.

Bollocks. His record is comparable to Wenger's at the same time, who is widely acclaimed to have taken England by storm in his first few years. Add that to the fact that his record pisses all over Ferguson's.

[*]

I know Rafa has to rebuild but really, was it necessary to bring in 50 players?

Instead of 10 average players maybe 4-5 better ones every season we'll have a much stronger squad.

Seriously, how much more time and money do Rafa need to rebuild to beat the likes of Boro, Hull, Stoke, Fulham, West Ham etc?

And for the guy above using Man City as an example I have to laugh.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

Well the current squad is the worst yet under Rafa. The amount of players who aren't good enough is as long as your arm.If Rafa is shown the door or more likely walks away the new manager will be left a fer bigger headache than the one Rafa inheritted From Uncle Ged.

What was Ged's last European game? A defeat to Marseille. Rafa's: victory in the Bernabeu. You're chatting crap.

[Zeb]

maybe we should get rid of Rafa because as far as I, and many others can see...He hasn't come to terms with managing in the English Premier league.

Absolutely right. We've not cut the gap on the other top teams under Rafa, we're not getting closer to the Mancs. We should get Wenger in. He plays pretty football and it's proving to be very successful again this season in the league just as it always has been in Europe.

[freddwarf]

New stadium my arse,its a new manager we need.And not one who thinks everybody has to be as nice as him.

Rafa can't stand any player getting above themselves.

Paralysis by analysis as well.Out-thinks himself. No bugger can call it time after time and get it right. Under Rafa we will get great results,plenty of draws and a fair smattering of defeats.In a word inconsistency.

[lfcderek]

"In the summer of '04 our squad was crap"....would this be basically the squad that won the champions league...Rafa's main claim to fame..

You're not seriously trying to say that our squad in 04 wasn't crap?

Wind your memories back to that summer of 04 and remember the state of our club. Gerrard, Owen, Sami, Didi and an indifferent full back with the initials JC. Nobody in the youth or reserves who had even the potential to be anything other than a squad player.

Our game plan consisted of back to wall defending and then hoofing the ball upfield with the hope that Owen might run onto it and score.

We now have a squad which can legitimally contend for the PL title and is justly respected throughout Europe for our regular achievents in the CL - and crutially - have a raft of youngsters who probably (not just possibly) will make it to the first team.

[timiano]

Well the current squad is the worst yet under Rafa. The amount of players who aren't good enough is as long as your arm.If Rafa is shown the door or more likely walks away the new manager will be left a fer bigger headache than the one Rafa inheritted From Uncle Ged.

It's not though. Sorry but you are wrong. The fact that we've spent a period at the top, been 2nd for quite a while, and can still potentially take the title (unlikely, but not completely dillusional - otherwise we wouldn't be 25/1), doing well in the Champions League.

What you fail to realise also, is that other teams have got much better.

[freddwarf]

So clearly a good few of you think this squad is good enough,if not to win it this season then we should roll it next time round.

Get real, it's going to take a shed load of dough to put this squad into some sort of shape in order to compete next season.

Left back, a vital position is in a mess as is the left side,again another vital spot.One decent striker.To many negative midfield players. Lot of cash to put things right.Give Rafa big pot of cash...he'll come back with more tripe.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Well look again gents.

Fergie has bought 18 players

Don't believe it. Only 18 players in five years? See in our lists all the youngsters get counted, bet when we tot up Ferguson's we didn't even notice him buying loads of young players. They're spending big money on 16-18 year olds, we're spending the odd million. All ours get counted in, and his don't. Because we focus on ourselves.

[timiano]

So clearly a good few of you think this squad is good enough,if not to win it this season then we should roll it next time round.

Get real, it's going to take a shed load of dough to put this squad into some sort of shape in order to compete next season.

Left back, a vital position is in a mess as is the left side,again another vital spot.One decent striker.To many negative midfield players. Lot of cash to put things right.Give Rafa big pot of cash...he'll come back with more tripe.

It's evolved brilliantly over Rafa's tenure, and there's no reason to think that it won't carry on. There's a rich pipeline of youth and scouting network. We've now got a great squad base, and can now start adding some real quality bit by bit - its final evolution.

The only tripe, is your opinion.

[freddwarf]

Look at kuyt.Rafa must put great store by the boy as he plays him all the time.

Kuyt....At this level...slow feet,slow football brain,no threat in the air despite being 6 foot,no pace,np great strike on him,knocked off the ball very easily.Great energy yes...but little else.

If Rafa can't see that then I'm not giving him 40/50 million to spend on more misfits.Thankyou very much.

And before you call me a moaning manc...I go back to Phill Taylor with this club.

[Rossie]

It's not though. Sorry but you are wrong. The fact that we've spent a period at the top, been 2nd for quite a while, and can still potentially take the title (unlikely, but not completely dillusional - otherwise we wouldn't be 25/1), doing well in the Champions League.

What you fail to realise also, is that other teams have got much better.

Exactly.  Even mid table premier league teams have got some super players who can win a game on any given day.  The money in the premier league has bought up most of all the good players around Europe and bar the top two in Spain they're almost all playing in England. 

[freddwarf]

It's evolved brilliantly over Rafa's tenure, and there's no reason to think that it won't carry on. There's a rich pipeline of youth and scouting network. We've now got a great squad base, and can now start adding some real quality bit by bit - its final evolution.

The only tripe, is your opinion.

No need to spend big then, just have to wait for all this great talent to come thru.

I wont mention that Arsenals younger players made our mob look pretty average to say the least.

[freddwarf]

I have to pop off now but I'll be back to put you lot right over the coming weeks.

Good evening gentlemen.

[timiano]

No need to spend big then, just have to wait for all this great talent to come thru.

I wont mention that Arsenals younger players made our mob look pretty average to say the least.

No we do need to spend big you plank, but on the luxury players now that we have a great squad.

[Fat Scouser]

I have to pop off now but I'll be back to put you lot right over the coming weeks.

Good evening gentlemen.

Can't wait.