Topic: Liverpool will never embrace future with one foot in past - Times Article

[The Frederick]

Just like some people still want crown paints as our sponsor. id rather see some unkwown indian airline and win the league than a beer sponson that dosent even taste that nice!

One hyphenated word: Coca-Cola.

Goddamnit.

[TipTopKop]

Behave yourself. I only go the corner shop for white lightning. I wouldn't know how to run it. In fact, I couldn't run an egg and spoon race.

   still an upgrade on Coco mind 

[duvduv]

Well they're stupid if that's the case.

If (ha) we get a new stadium, it wouldn't be Anfield and there would be no point dressing it up as such.

And who really gives a flying shite what is on our shirts? I'd take a giant cock on the front of our shirts in sponsorship of Durex if it meant we could have some money, post G&H.

we could sign Julian Dicks again....

[shelovesyou]

Ive been thinking this for a while , the article is pretty much spot on , we need to let go of the past now and fuckin move forward .

You will not progress if you always ponder on what has been , you have to look forward and you have to set your heights high .

Positive actions are needed now .

We desperatly need a new ground , Anfield is a special special place with no pretention and its a real ground , an honest ground , a reflection on the down to earth local people of Liverpool and L4 but it is time to let it go .
The atmosphere wont be the same at a new ground of course not , Why ? because it'll be a new ground but given time we will recapture our famous European nights I have no doubt about that at all but at the end of the day we need to lay the ghosts to rest and move with the times if we want to compete .

We have the 2nd most famous footballing name in the world , some might say the most famous but either way we have so much potential its almost unreal that the club have not capatalised on this , But its not too late , We have so many things to be positive about and given the right structure we could make shit loads of money but the key is to let go of what has been , saviour it yes but just let it go and move forward together as a club .

[b_joseph]

Good article...exactly how I feel about the situation...exactly how most of us feel about the situation.

It really makes you wonder just what were we doing off the field during the 90's. They money folks were probably playing board games all day.

[mulfella]

I've been trying to make similar points in other threads. All the focus on the moment seems to be on the manager, when whatever his faults, focusing on him, or even changing him is missing the point.

We just don't have the fundamental ingredients for success in place and until we do we are just a bigger Everton. More money maybe but well run on the pitch, but without the resources and organisational determination and culture to win big.

People have often said Rafa prioritises Europe. I've never really believed that to be the case, however I think he's always recognised that it is his best chance for glory in a season.

Finally, I annoyed as hell that throwing away a lead in the title race seems to be viewed as a much bigger sin that not challenging in the first place.

[WesternRed]

Spot-on article from Oliver - unfortunately!

[mainstandred]

Spot on really, albeit he's kind to Parry over his role in my view.

So are you saying that Kay is right, and that we're at about the level we can reasonably expect to achieve given our resources?

no you cut your cloth accordingly , and liverpool have spent big .

[Curva Nord '77]

The article is spot on. We know and ShareLFC know, that we have got no chance of matching Utd's match-day revenue until we have a similar facility.

The only bit I'd take issue with is that the finger is not pointed more fully at Moores. We know he put money into the club years ago but by fuck he got it back in spades recently.

From what I have been told, Moores was the biggest stumbling block to any ideas of us moving away from Anfield. The right move, financially, would have been to bite the bullet years ago and move to a new site. Moores has been anchored in the past while the reality of our situation was ignored. The article says we are punching at about our correct weight, mostly true except for Europe where we punch above our weight.

Moores considering stepping down from his position? I wish he would to be honest, prospective buyers might not want the ex-chairman rattling around the place like some sort of ghost.

I can't believe just how deep the shit is we are in.

Hicks does seem to be the better of the two herberts we currently have.  Gillett has been shown up to be the real problem. Gillett, it seems, will hang on to his stake just to stop Hicks' plans.

Parry has fallen on his sword but it was Moores who opted to sell to the two americans after having the deal from Dubai actually on the table. It was Moores that did not wish to leave "our spiritual home" over many seasons. Moores was never a businessman and was placed in charge of a big business.

I've never understood why Parry, so involved in the creation of the PL itself, was never more strident in pushing for us to make the right moves years back?

We are now left with United being years ahead of us off the pitch and their superior finances keeping them ahead on the pitch. On our day, we can beat their best eleven. Over a season, it seems we cannot beat their squad. They won a trophy yesterday without either Rooney or Berbatov on the pitch. They have a lead at the top of the Prem and are still in the FA cup and the CL. Their squad depth allows them to do this and that has been as a direct result of their superior finances and planning over many years.

What should also be said, is that Liverpool City council have pissed the club around over many years too. LFC has brought MILLIONS of pounds to this city but has never had the co-operation it needed from the city itself. At Newcastle, when their council were standing in the way of the development of St.James' Park, Sir John Hall simply threatened to move the club lock stock and barrel to Gateshead. The council soon changed their tune.

Moores and Parry should have had the balls to tell Liverpool city council to shove it and move to another site. Even now, all we have is planning permission to build on dogshit park. My guess is, any alternative buyer would be looking at different locations where the build would be cheaper and easier.

[Stussy]

He nailed it, completely. That article is the final truth on the matter.

Also, I honestly think that Rafa has been the only thing that has kept the club unitary and on touch the last couple of seasons. The cynicism abounds for some after Riverside result, but he saw what was happening and he has fought to stop us from imploding completely. I shudder to think where we could have been without his command since Hicks and Gillett took over.

Those facts that Oliver Kay points out are stark and cruel, but they are simple facts and figures and they are harsh but they are true.

[TipTopKop]

From top to bottom, this club has sat on its arse for the better part of 19 or so years, content at looking back rather than looking forward, unable to move with the times when the sport became a business.

The 'positive' from all this has to be that at least it is now in the open, it is being discussed, 12 or 13 years ago anytime I brought up the point of how the Mancs are expanding I'd hear joke after joke of how they came out with a new kit every 6 months, everytime I asked what was Moores doing to expand our club's profile or think about a new stadium I'd get a tonne of stories on how Anfield can never be replaced, and how it's unholy to even think of such thing.

In the last 2 or so years it's become more accepted now, discussion, thoughts that once were the stuff of heresy are now beginning to be accepted. This club has been frozen in time, it is a sleeping giant.

Winning the CL was like an oasis in the middle of a desert, and showed -rather frighteningly- just how well/big this club is thought of around the world, we need to realise this, and it is so unfortunate that the ownership situation has not capitalised on this. Hopefully, this summer we'll get some kind of resolution to all this, and we can move on an improved platform.

[Rafas3leggedtable]

get your own material kay you lazy git. 

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=236366.msg5307560#msg5307560

Of course much better put by Kay than what I was getting at. Not sure what I was actually getting at to be honest  but suffice to say that I do see us stuck in the past and that we are in danger after having hauled ourselves back into contention to once again be left behind again.

Maybe, just maybe, the only we can get ourselves out of this mode of the type of football we play, the welcome we give people, the quiet lulls in matches from the crowd etc etc is by revamping the whole image and ethos of the club.

And there-in is the dilema each and every one of us has.

[Enders]

no you cut your cloth accordingly , and liverpool have spent big .

..and managed to just about stay on the same level, with other teams spending just as much, if not more. For all Rafa's faults, and he is not without weakness, we would be in a MUCH worse position if he were not around, and anyone who says otherwise is talking out of their arse.

[Momos_righteye]

I thought it was an excellent article and I was having a similar debate with my mate about what will have if Fergie resigns, I think that they are so far ahead of us a the moment on and off the field that it wouldn't make as big a difference as as everyone expects.

I definitely believe that we are punching above our weight, but we should have still beaten Boro at the weekend

[Jase]

It hurts simply because it's all correct. I wish I could read that article and go 'Yes, but....' but I can't.

Collymore's article is barely worth a mention, in comparison.

[Fruity]

the article is very true. However with the necessary changes that need to be made also come other problems.

We all agree the club needs more investment but that might mean handing over a lot more tickets to thomas cook rather than selling at match day prices to bring in more money. This might mean more Wanker Hats and more people walking around on match day with liver world bags and less locals getting tickets. The fact is i dont think we are in a position to have it both ways. united has a massive amount of oot supporters on match day (even roy keane pointed that out) and it will probably get worse. The same will have to happen at anfield or the owners push up the ticket prices. Either way the locals will lose out.

Also Mancheste in recent times has become a very prosperous city. In the last few years house prices have shot up so much that at one point their increase percentage was greater than london. I understand they have taken a bit of a hit since the recession started but there probably is more surplus cash in the average persons pocket. I am guessing its a lot easier to sell a corporate box there.

I do think the club needs to move forward and hopefully it will but I will be amazed if the people who lose out the most are not locals.

[Kop4]

Also Mancheste in recent times has become a very prosperous city. .................there probably is more surplus cash in the average persons pocket. I am guessing its a lot easier to sell a corporate box there.

Exactly.  Ditto for Arsenal and London.

I also think that Gillette and Hicks underestimated the difficulty of selling Liverpool city and Liverpool the football club to prospective sponsors.  Hicks has often slated Parry for not attracting sponsors whereas other teams have many sponsors.  Being an outsider, he was probably not aware of the poor image of Liverpool often portrayed in the media.  This can be very offputting for corporate sponsors etc.

[Kop4]

I thought that Kay's article was a perfectly fair report when I read it this morning in the paper.

In the interests of balance though, I noticed that in the same section, Matt Hughes reckoned that "there is a growing body of evidence to suggest that Rafael Benitez is more suited to international management than club management".  He went on to suggest that he should be high on the list of candidates for the next England manager's job.
 

[Rock-N-Red]

no you cut your cloth accordingly , and liverpool have spent big .

I think we need to dispel, once and for all, the assertion that Liverpool have spent big. It simply isn’t the case. You need to look at net spend, i.e. money spent on new players minus income from the sale of players. Here are links to two pages that do exactly this in great detail since Rafa arrived at Anfield.

http://www.liverweb.org.uk/benitez.asp

http://www.anfield-online.co.uk/stats/transfers.htm


The first arrives at the following figures:

Total Purchases 171,425,000

Total Sales 105,980,000

Net Spend £65,44.000


The second  calculates the totals to be:

Total Purchases £190,616,000

Total Sales £108,375,000

Net Spend £82,410,000



The reason for the discrepancy is that many transfer fees both in and out are undisclosed. The author of each web page has made slightly different assumptions as to these undisclosed fees based on the best information available at the time. If you assume however, that the net spend is between £67 million and £85 million since Benitez arrived, a range of £18 million, you should be pretty close to the truth. That means an average net spend in each of the five transfer windows of about £16 million. A quick calculation reveals that during the first transfer window under the americans we spent a net of about £18 - £20 million, during the second season we spent a net of roughly zero. That’s an average of about £9 - £10 million. So we were actually spending more before they arrived.

Given the fact that the Club’s income from the Champions League alone has topped £100 million under Benitez, there is no that you can say that we have spent big relative to our income. Other Clubs like Villa have outspent us and they haven’t had any income from the Champions League at all.

The truth is that our Champions League income is now needed simply to repay the interest on the loans taken out to buy the Club. It’s difficult to see how the situation can improve without some form of cash injection - but wasn’t that what the americans were supposed to provide in the first place?

[Ultimate Bromance]

This article made me sad

Hopefully a brighter future is ahead.

[killer_heels]

Are we that bad, commercially?

Richest english club list: -

2 (2) MANCHESTER UNITED

2007/08 revenues: 324.8 (from 315.2)

Matchday: 128.2

Broadcasting: 115.7

Commercial: 80.9

5 (4) CHELSEA

2007/08 revenues: 268.9 (from 283.0)

Matchday: 94.1

Broadcasting: 97.8

Commercial: 77.0

6 (5) ARSENAL

2007/08 revenues: 264.4 (from 263.9)

Matchday: 119.5

Broadcasting: 88.8

Commercial 56.1

7 ( LIVERPOOL

2007/08 revenues: 210.9 (from 206.5)

Matchday: 49.5

Broadcasting: 96.4

Commercial: 65.0

Now although we are behind Utd and Chelsea, our commercial revenue isnt that bad as its probably improved due to the new board who clearly saw this as a problem.

Yes it could be better, but its getting much better than it was and will probably improve even more.

Clearly the matchday revenue is an issue. But we know why that is. The rest isnt that bad.

[Manila Kop]

Are we that bad, commercially?

Clearly the matchday revenue is an issue. But we know why that is. The rest isnt that bad.

Since matchday revenue is a long-term issue that won't get sorted out immediately, it's even more important to maximize commercial revenues isn't it?  Every little bit helps.  Personally I think it's a bit of a joke that Chelsea's commercial revenues are bigger than ours given our past success and much larger global fanbase.

[rocco]

-

2 (2) MANCHESTER UNITED


Commercial: 80.9

7 ( LIVERPOOL


Commercial: 65.0

Interesting , would have thought UTD would have earned a lot more than that more than us .

[Manila Kop]

Thats fair enough, but Kenyon has been there for a little while and is pretty good at the commercial side of it and has managed to maximise Chelsea's recent success since Abramovich arrived.

The new board here hasnt been here as long and we have only just got that Ayre guy. The figures above were better than the year before so some improvements are taking place.

Agreed, we're making progress, but we're still well behind the curve which was Kay's point about Parry's failure with us.  Just to take up the point further, commercial revenues from the top non-English teams of the Deloitte Football Money League:

€129.0m  1. Real Madrid
€101.1m  3. Barcelona
€176.5m  4. Bayern Munich

We're barely scratching the surface of what's possible with our commercial arrangements.  Getting us up to Bayern Munich-levels would obliterate the gap with United.  Not too sure how it's done in England, but I know for a fact that the club management of Barça are staffed by MBA graduates from the top business school in Barcelona (ESADE) which I think helps prepare them for the kind of brand-building, money-milking exercises needed to keep the Eto'os of the world at the club.

[fowler_is_god9]

The fact is you can talk all day about money etc but when you have a manager who will consistently leave the best players out for worse players and then bring other worse players off the bench as well you have got no chance.  Arsenal are going through a rough few years but they have competed with Man Utd without spending.

We are never going to compete with the Mancs financially.  If you think we ever will you are living in a dreamland.  Blame who you want but it has happened.  But to then say we can't compete on the pitch because of this is rubbish.  Generally the manager has spent the big money correctly.  Its the 6 and 7 millions were it has been wasted and buying players in positions in which it wasn't needed.  But even after conceding this, we have the side to compete it's just that too often he has put the wrong side out or made the wrong subs.  It's not even a question of a opinion it's blindingly obvious.  Leaving Alonso out for Lucas is going to cost you.  Just like bringing Ngog on instead of Keane.

The most ridiculous thing for me though that seems to get ignored is the random acts of stubborness with certain players.  The most obvious being Crouch.  Why was he consistently fucked off last season?  Not even getting on the bench.  No matter what your opinion of him is he is a better player than Voronin so why was Voronin put on the bench and started ahead of him consistently.  Now we have a striker crisis.

You can't compete when the manager makes ridiculous decisions.  That should be the first line in this article.

[west_london_red]

Agreed, we're making progress, but we're still well behind the curve which was Kay's point about Parry's failure with us.  Just to take up the point further, commercial revenues from the top non-English teams of the Deloitte Football Money League:

€129.0m  1. Real Madrid
€101.1m  3. Barcelona
€176.5m  4. Bayern Munich

We're barely scratching the surface of what's possible with our commercial arrangements.  Getting us up to Bayern Munich-levels would obliterate the gap with United.  Not too sure how it's done in England, but I know for a fact that the club management of Barça are staffed by MBA graduates from the top business school in Barcelona (ESADE) which I think helps prepare them for the kind of brand-building, money-milking exercises needed to keep the Eto'os of the world at the club.

Bayern own a big stadium and rent it out to 1860. Anyone for groundshare?

[mulfella]

I thought that Kay's article was a perfectly fair report when I read it this morning in the paper.

In the interests of balance though, I noticed that in the same section, Matt Hughes reckoned that "there is a growing body of evidence to suggest that Rafael Benítez is more suited to international management than club management".  He went on to suggest that he should be high on the list of candidates for the next England manager's job.
 

If he's basing that on performances in  Europe then he's missing the point completely.

[Manila Kop]

Bayern own a big stadium and rent it out to 1860. Anyone for groundshare?

Good point (and taking money from the bitters to make us richer would be delicious) but it's not the only revenue driver:

The UEFA Cup semi finalists’ rise was driven by a €69.3m (65%) increase in commercial revenues to an impressive €176.5m (£139.7m) which now contributes 60% of Bayern’s overall revenue, by far the highest total from this revenue stream and over €45m (£35.6m) more than that of the second highest earner from this source, Real Madrid.

The key reason for this increase is the club acquiring 100% ownership of the company owning its Allianz Arena home ground, after buying out the 50% stake owned by city neighbours TSV 1860 Munich who will keep playing their home matches at the stadium. Revenue from the stadium company totalled €41.6m (£32.9m), derived from sources including rent, hospitality, catering, stadium tours and naming rights.

The club recorded a €8.8m (27%) increase in merchandising revenue to €41.1m (£32.5m) in 2007/08, aided by the acquisitions of high profile players such as Franck Ribéry and Luca Toni, whilst sponsorship revenue increased by €11.5m to €74.3m (£58.8m) with key components being its shirts sponsorship deal with Deutsche Telekom and kit supply agreement with adidas.

Their sponsorship revenue alone is larger than our commercial revenues! 

[Curva Nord '77]

The fact is you can talk all day about money etc but when you have a manager who will consistently leave the best players out for worse players and then bring other worse players off the bench as well you have got no chance.  Arsenal are going through a rough few years but they have competed with Man Utd without spending.

We are never going to compete with the Mancs financially.  If you think we ever will you are living in a dreamland.  Blame who you want but it has happened.  But to then say we can't compete on the pitch because of this is rubbish.  Generally the manager has spent the big money correctly.  Its the 6 and 7 millions were it has been wasted and buying players in positions in which it wasn't needed.  But even after conceding this, we have the side to compete it's just that too often he has put the wrong side out or made the wrong subs.  It's not even a question of a opinion it's blindingly obvious.  Leaving Alonso out for Lucas is going to cost you.  Just like bringing Ngog on instead of Keane.

The most ridiculous thing for me though that seems to get ignored is the random acts of stubborness with certain players.  The most obvious being Crouch.  Why was he consistently fucked off last season?  Not even getting on the bench.  No matter what your opinion of him is he is a better player than Voronin so why was Voronin put on the bench and started ahead of him consistently.  Now we have a striker crisis.

You can't compete when the manager makes ridiculous decisions.  That should be the first line in this article.

Disagree. We can at least equal them financially if we have the right stadium. We can equal or better them on the pitch. Our support is generally much more fanatical. Prior to the CL final in Athens Hicks was quoted as saying with the right stadium and commercial activity we would be one of the top two or three clubs in the world.

And we will be IF we make the moves we know we need to.

[lfcderek]

The fact is you can talk all day about money etc but when you have a manager who will consistently leave the best players out for worse players and then bring other worse players off the bench as well you have got no chance.


 Arsenal are going through a rough few years but they have competed with Man Utd without spending.

Wenger has had 11 years to nurture his youth team players through. Nemeth, Pacheco, Plessis, Insua, Darby are knocking on the door - with Ince, Dalla Valle, Buchtmann, Pepper, Kacaniklic, Amoo, Eccleston, Kelly, Weijl, Bouzanis a couple of years behind.

We are never going to compete with the Mancs financially.  If you think we ever will you are living in a dreamland.  Blame who you want but it has happened.

Of couse we can! As Royhendo said though - it's a project of a decade or more. A 70,000 seat stadium and commercial income commensurate with our worldwide profile.   

But to then say we can't compete on the pitch because of this is rubbish.

Cost of the Manu Squad approx £241M
Cost of the LFC Squad   approx £124M

It's a bloody miracle (read Rafa) that we are competing at all.

Generally the manager has spent the big money correctly.  Its the 6 and 7 millions were it has been wasted and buying players in positions in which it wasn't needed.

Riera  £8M
Dossena £7M
Pennant £6M
Reina £6M
Skrtel £6M
Agger £6M
Lucas £5M
Bene    £5M

Not a bad selection of players for that outlay!

  But even after conceding this, we have the side to compete it's just that too often he has put the wrong side out or made the wrong subs.  It's not even a question of a opinion it's blindingly obvious.  Leaving Alonso out for Lucas is going to cost you.  Just like bringing Ngog on instead of Keane.

The most ridiculous thing for me though that seems to get ignored is the random acts of stubborness with certain players.  The most obvious being Crouch.  Why was he consistently fucked off last season?  Not even getting on the bench.  No matter what your opinion of him is he is a better player than Voronin so why was Voronin put on the bench and started ahead of him consistently.  Now we have a striker crisis.

You can't compete when the manager makes ridiculous decisions.  That should be the first line in this article.

[SamAteTheRedAcid]

Arsenal are going through a rough few years but they have competed with Man Utd without spending.

Arsenal are competing with Everton and Aston Villa at the moment. They've done fuck all for five years except lose to Barca in the CL. And they never spend any money, oh no. MYTH.

[Gaz123456]

Excellent article and a few home truths there

[fowler_is_god9]

Disagree. We can at least equal them financially if we have the right stadium. We can equal or better them on the pitch. Our support is generally much more fanatical. Prior to the CL final in Athens Hicks was quoted as saying with the right stadium and commercial activity we would be one of the top two or three clubs in the world.

And we will be IF we make the moves we know we need to.

You do realise you are now quoting Hicks to back up your argument.  We are miles behind Man Utd.  They are in an uncatchable position financially.  But because Tom Hicks said we can then it must be true.

Arsenal are competing with Everton and Aston Villa at the moment. They've done fuck all for five years except lose to Barca in the CL. And they never spend any money, oh no. MYTH.

Did you miss the bit where I said Arsenal have had a rough few years?  For nearly a decade Arsenal competed with Utd without having anywhere near the financial mussle.

and MYTH?  Is that the same myth that am sure you will claim Benitez doesn't spend loads?

[west_london_red]

Their sponsorship revenue alone is larger than our commercial revenues! 

Dont forget though, Bayern are like a German version of the Mancs. They are the footballing darlings of the Bundesliga. Plus, they run like a charity, no shareholders etc to pay.

[CS111]

Sad but true, and some people on here need to get their heads out of the clouds and read it and take it in
becuase its true
We are miles , and i mean miles behind manure in almost every department of the football club
they could very easily be at number 25,26,27 beofre we are at 19.

[stockdam]

2 (2) MANCHESTER UNITED


Commercial: 80.9

7 ( LIVERPOOL


Commercial: 65.0


Interesting , would have thought UTD would have earned a lot more than that more than us .

£15M every year....that's enough for a Torres every other year. And then you add the matchday difference etc.

[stockdam]

The most ridiculous thing for me though that seems to get ignored is the random acts of stubborness with certain players.  The most obvious being Crouch.  Why was he consistently fucked off last season?  Not even getting on the bench.  No matter what your opinion of him is he is a better player than Voronin so why was Voronin put on the bench and started ahead of him consistently.  Now we have a striker crisis.

You can't compete when the manager makes ridiculous decisions.  That should be the first line in this article.

I agree on the Crouch point. Voronin was never as good as Crouch. Crouch would have been a good asset this year.

[fowler_is_god9]

Riera money well spent.
Pennant - shite
Bellamy - shite buy
Lucas - shite
Dossena - shite
Agger, Skrtel, Reina - All quality buys.

All i was trying to point out here was that the money could have been spent better.  My main issue is that people are complaining about not having money to spend on players but when he does he ends up dropping them half the time anyway.  Shite tactics have cost us a good title challenge this year.  Nothing else.

[CS111]

I agree on the Crouch point. Voronin was never as good as Crouch. Crouch would have been a good asset this year.

Agree with this point, and its the same with many other decisions
dont know why but i still think rafa is the man for the job, but do also have doubts he will ever change his ways

[fowler_is_god9]

I agree on the Crouch point. Voronin was never as good as Crouch. Crouch would have been a good asset this year.

What makes it even worse is that it's not in the Lucas or Kuyt style.  Where people might think they are shite but the manager thinks they are good.  In some ways you can accept this.  But in the case of Crouch, he was fucked off all season for a player the manager was willing to let go out on loan at the end of the season whilst we still pay some of his wages.  Then the manager plays the media game as usual saying well I want to keep Crouch.  Well if you wanted to keep him why the fuck were you putting complete shite on the bench ahead of him.

Another case like this is Zenden.  A player so obviously shite it was unbelievable that was played in a champions league final.  It's not as if the manager rated this character either because he jibbed him off at the end of the season as well.