Red and White Kop

Author Topic: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?  (Read 9134 times)

Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« on: December 27, 2008, 09:27:58 PM »
Introduction:

Level three has, in short, been defined on this site as the blueprint used by some of the greatest managers in history, in particular the model established by Renus Michels and the Dutch 'Total Football sides', also Sacchi's great Milan side, and the Dinamo Kiev teams of Maslov and further developed by Lobanyovski. The attacking aspect of this blueprint is what sticks in the mind most easily, but this is not the fundamental basis of the blueprint. The fundamentals are pressing, tactical flexibility and the ability to also play level one (backs to the wall) and level two (counter attacking) football as and when needed.

In terms of the eleven players on the pitch in a single game, this blueprint established in the 60's has not advanced beyond Sacchi's Milan. Arguably it's doubtful that we will ever see a change as fundamental as the introduction of pressing and the blurring of strict player positions ever again.

That does not, however, mean that football has, or will, stop developing altogether, and in my view Rafael Benitez is at the forefront of taking these blueprints further, and establishing new fundamentals for the top managers of the future.

So how is he doing this?

The answer lies in what are, almost certainly, his two most controversial methods: Rotation, and playing to exploit opponent's weak areas, rather than establishing our own strengths and playing to those instead. The two are of course linked, but let's look at them separately first before we find the joins.

Rotation:

Rotation is about fitness. Players cannot stay fully fit for three games in one week. This isn't up for debate, it's not a matter of opinion, it's simply a physical fact. A player can no more maintain full fitness playing this often then he can fly or breath underwater. The main drawback of employing pressing, especially the Sacchiano high-line offside trap pressing system is that it makes huge physical demands on the players. If you aren't fully fit, you can't fully press. If you can't fully press, you can't control your opponent.

Of all managers, Rafa is arguably the one who has embraced this creed the earliest and the most whole heartedly. Most of his squad decisions and substitutions, which so often seem to make no sense on an intuitive or even tactical level, make complete sense when viewed in terms of fitness levels. Being able to press hard all game every game is already the one quality that even Rafa's critics would acknowledge as one of our big strengths.

In this sense, I'd liken Rafa's approach to that of athletes who run distances of 400m or greater. There are two approaches one can take...go out of the blocks as fast as possible in order to blow away the opposition before the race nears the finish, or aim to run a 'flat' race, namely to try and run at the same pace at the end of the race as at the beginning. By conserving some energy at the start, such runners 'kick', usually most obvious in the final 50-400m (depending on the race distance), apparently sprinting away from the rest of the field in the final stages. These athletes are actually not so much speeding up at the end of the race as they are exploiting the depleted energy reserves of the opposition. Rafa's use of Aimar for Valencia and tendency to do the minimum possible in beating inferior opposition are the football equivalent of this tactic.

Personally, I would cite Man United as the one of the best examples of how devastating this approach can be. It seems to me that Ferguson has only fully embraced squad rotation since Rafa's arrival in Britain. Ever the pragmatist, Ferguson has seen the future and been given a lot of credit for an idea that was not his, and that he rejected for a very long time. The Man United side of last season is the strongest I've ever seen, Ferguson himself called it his best team, and no Man United team before has rotated as much as last season's model.

As far as I'm concerned rotation is the closest thing we have to pressing, in terms of a new development that in future will come to be seen as uncontroversial and as fundamental to success as pressing was. You can see it already with managers like O'Neill. He's a great manager but his 'pick your best 11' approach is already starting to look like anachronistic, and is cited as a risk for that team by many of the same pundits who will happily ridicule Rafa for pioneering rotation.

In short, fitness is a massive strength, one of the few strengths that can be fully controlled, is perhaps more important in this league than any other, and we have at the helm the manager who values and understands the importance of fitness and the value of implementing rotation in preserving fitness (arguably) better than any other manager in the world.

Exploiting Weaknesses:


This is probably even more controversial than rotation, and is an area where I think Rafa is genuinely unique. Of course, no manager (not even Wenger) actively ignores the strengths and weaknesses of his opposition, but how many would use a whole different formation and style of play to nullify strengths and exploit weaknesses, rather than tinkering with the established blueprint?

I can't think of any like Rafa. I can't think of any who have started and won games using three distinctly different formations in one season, and I can't think of any who might play a 3-4-3 with an emphasis on direct play one game, switching to a 4-4-2 with emphasis on possession the next, switching to a 4-5-1 with emphasis on counter attack the next, with the according personnel changes.

There's a lot I love about our manager, but certainly in a footballing sense this aspect shines out brighter than anything else. It is this which I think could make Rafa the first true 'level four' manager, and it is this which gives me confidence that despite ownership and financial handicaps, Rafa is the man to not just win us our next title, but to re-establish Liverpool as a dynastic force.

The way I see it, the 'play to your strengths' approach produces a slightly higher top level of performance, when all the top players are fit and in form. However, where it falls down is the fact that this is a very rare occurrence. There are only a small handful of games in any given season when all the best players are available and on form. On the other hand, if you know what your opponent will do, and have an effective strategy to combat that, it is possible to beat even the very strongest opponents with a very limited squad, as Greece showed in winning the European Championships, and as we showed in winning the Champion's League.

Combining the two:

Being able to exploit an opponent's weaknesses in each and every game requires a deep squad with lots of different options. Again I doubt even Rafa's strongest critic would argue that Rafa hasn't been building towards this. We may lack quality in depth in the squad, but we excel in terms of tactical flexibility. However, we can't simply keep players like, say, Benayoun for the three games each season they are absolutely perfect for. You can't expect players to come in cold and perform, hence this makes rotation doubly important. It also makes training even more important for us than other sides, and explains why Rafa places such huge emphasis on how players perform during training. If they can't follow specific instructions at Melwood, how can Rafa have any faith in a player's ability to implement these instructions on the pitch?

Of course this has it's drawbacks. Under a manger like Wenger, it's reasonable to assume that Babel, for example, might be doing much better. However, this doesn't mean it's the wrong approach, just a demanding one that some players, who may seem to tick all the boxes, will simply never be able to adapt to, especially when there is not the track record of league success yet that can force players to see things differently, like say Solskjaer did for many years.

Ultimately, I see Rafa's approach as simply being the logical next step of journey set in motion by Scotland when they first decided to pass the ball to each other instead of running with it. It's the team over the individual, versatility over specialisation, strategy over pure motivation. In short, I see it as the Liverpool Way for the 21st century, and I can't help but feel that Shanks and Paisley, if they are watching Rafa, are nodding in quiet approval at what the man is doing for us.

I'm no footballer, I've no real talent for playing the game, but trying to put myself in a players shoes I have to ask myself, who would I rather play against?

Would I rather know exactly what I will face when I step out onto the pitch? Would I rather be able to play my own game, to what I see as my biggest strengths? Or would I rather play against a team that forces me to step outside my comfort zone? A team that seems to understand my plan A, and responds to it by doing something I actively hate playing against?

If you want an example that crystallises the whole of this post into a single passage of play, you could do a lot worse than Keane's goal against Arsenal.

Arsenal don't like physical sides. They don't like being made to defend long balls. They don't like opponents to be in their face all the time. So what do you do...play them at their own game? Or play them at a game they actively despise? Then ask yourself this...of all the teams in all the world, who would you think Arsenal would least like to play? Their responses to their increasingly regular poor performances against us would suggest to me that we're that team, and the increasing, if grudging, admiration many of their fans have towards Rafa reinforces that view. After all, the older fans had their own pragmatists in Chapman and Graham...they built their great history on pragmatists, and they haven't forgotten how much sweeter it is to win then it is to entertain. 

You know what? I'd rather be the team that everyone hates to play against then the team that everyone loves to watch. Especially if our approach to the next game is to comprehensively out-pass and out-class exactly the sort of physical side that Arsenal hate to play, and who we resembled only 4 days earlier - a team we could only out-play as we did precisely because we are prepared to match their physicality.

In the immortal words of Millwall supporters:

"Everyone hates us and we don't care." Damn right.

Original Level 3 threads:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=225700.0

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=225701.0

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=225239.0

Check this out for a respected Arsenal view of Benitez Vs Rafa. Myles Palmer articulates this basic difference in approaches beautifully:
http://www.arsenalnewsreview.co.uk/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=1151&cntnt01origid=30&cntnt01returnid=42

Also some excellent analytical pieces by Uli Hesse-Lichtenberger (with application of 'Moneyball'-style principles to the progress of Freiburg in Germany) - an alternative vision of a potential level 4, which relates to a post later in this thread by Royhendo:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=437614&root=europe&cc=5739

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=439196&root=europe&cc=5739

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=440429&root=europe&cc=5739

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=441506&root=europe&cc=5739

My Sacchi thread...a theory piece on Rafa but more relevant to where we are at now:

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=231088.msg4954589#msg4954589

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2008, 09:29:51 PM »
The only way to find out is to keep Rafa.  Since he left Valencia at Level 3 there's no test example

Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2008, 09:34:18 PM »
The only way to find out is to keep Rafa.  Since he left Valencia at Level 3 there's no test example

Absolutely. One of the main reasons I think it's vital to back the man, especially given the off-field guff.

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,793
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2008, 09:42:26 PM »
I don't get it, you're saying that to go to level 4 we need to improve the weak areas of the side and keep on rotating.
Surely doing this would be the pursuit of level 3 perfection rather than the advancement to level 4?

If a level 4 does exist you can't predict what it will be and it certainly won't come from us.
The pressure at clubs like ours is so great that any form of innovation will be met with consternation. "You don't change a winning team".

The great innovators have always been isolated, whether it be under the rule of despots such as in Argentina and the fascist states of Europe or going back even further the Uruguay side that could only train and test against themselves.
Even when Scotland were "inventing" the passing game they were allowed to do so through a lack of competition.
How big a nutcase is he? On a scale of 1 to Cassano.

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2008, 09:48:01 PM »
Yes, Rafa has more experience with the lower levels because he managed the likes of Tenerife, Extremadura and Osasuna before taking Valencia to level 3.

The most interesting phase in Rafa's career is going to be how he takes a team to the next level.  And hopefully this will be Liverpool.  One day it's also going to be interesting to see how he deals with a cheque book that's similar to other top teams, whether that's at Real Madid or Liverpool under new ownership. In that case he will have his Daniel Alves, Amauri, Vidic, Walcott, Ramsey (all players he wanted but couldn't afford) and Kaladze (power to get someone for free if he wants) and afford players like David Villa who would jump at a chance to play for him.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 09:51:13 PM by SteveZissou »

Offline BazC

  • ...is as good as Van Basten
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,476
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2008, 09:50:02 PM »
I think Mourinho's Chelsea (first season) were about as Level 4 as you can get.

They had the ability to play ugly and win, but also play some devastatingly effective attacking football. Which is why they won the league with 90 something points.

Mourinho, it seems, has the scientific approach to football Rafa does- the need to control a lot of factors effecting players and their performances. I don't know how it compares to Rafa's 'micromanagement' but I think it was mentioned when he first went in and made changes.

He also rotated and exploited weaknesses so well. That team was definitely very well organised by him.

I don't know how Rafa will lead us to it (we're still not at Level 3 in my opinion), but I know he's definitely trying to. It's good points about rotation, exploiting weaknesses and how to consider both as the 'next step'. It's also telling when considering Ferguson and Mourinho embraced it and succeeded. But when Rafa does it his ideas get attacked.

It's refreshing to consider how these 2 factors can develop the game at the highest level, rather than be an element of the game that's holding it back.

I think 'breaking away from the cycle' would possibly be a part of any notion of 'Level 4', and as we've discussed in the Level 3 thread, it might be what Rafa's trying to do here.

But yeah, maybe Level 4 does exist, but at the moment, we're not at Level 3 yet, and possibly there may still be a question if we can consistently be at that level before we should consider Level 4 and Liverpool?

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2008, 09:57:54 PM »
I don't get it, you're saying that to go to level 4 we need to improve the weak areas of the side and keep on rotating.
Surely doing this would be the pursuit of level 3 perfection rather than the advancement to level 4?

If a level 4 does exist you can't predict what it will be and it certainly won't come from us.
The pressure at clubs like ours is so great that any form of innovation will be met with consternation. "You don't change a winning team".

The great innovators have always been isolated, whether it be under the rule of despots such as in Argentina and the fascist states of Europe or going back even further the Uruguay side that could only train and test against themselves.
Even when Scotland were "inventing" the passing game they were allowed to do so through a lack of competition.

According to the theory it's a gradual evolution from one level to another.  If its rushed when the team isn't ready then it will be a disaster, like the way Houllier suddenly tried to attack more in his last season when the team's balance wasn't in place. 

On the other hand nearly all clubs don't move forward with progressive development because they sack and sign new managers every few years, and this is one of the reasons (not just the finances) why Italian and Spanish top clubs are falling behind English top clubs, that is due to a lack of continuity.

The English clubs main challenge will be to keep up the momentum after reaching their peak in terms of individuals and playing as a team.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 10:04:53 PM by SteveZissou »

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2008, 09:59:15 PM »
By the way the other thread similar to this (on Rafa's background with Sacchi's tactics http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=234700.0) was moved to OPINION.  Don't agree with that move.

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,793
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2008, 10:06:54 PM »
According to the theory it's a gradual evolution from one level to another.  If its rushed when the team isn't ready then it will be a disaster, like the way Houllier suddenly tried to attack more in his last season when the team's balance wasn't in place. 

On the other hand nearly all clubs don't move forward with progressive development because they sack and sign new managers every few years, and this is one of the reasons (not just the finances) why Italian and Spanish top clubs are falling behind English top clubs, that is due to a lack of continuity.

The English clubs main challenge will be to keep up the momentum after reaching their peak in terms of individuals and playing as a team.
What I'm getting at is without a title first every single change Rafa tries to implement now, unfortunately, is going to be met with derision the minute it doesn't work.
It's this fucking 19 year monkey on our backs, the closer we get to the top the less flexibility the manager will get before ultimately we break the curse and can do what the fuck we like without fear.
How big a nutcase is he? On a scale of 1 to Cassano.

Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2008, 10:09:20 PM »
Degs and Baz, I think your questions are related so I'll try and tackle them both, let me know if I've misunderstood:

1. Level 3, are we there yet? No, not consistently. However, basics have been put in place since 04-06 that have led to us being a lot closer to level 3 now then were then. Similarly, fundamentals of level 4 have also been put in place from much earlier then we are able to truly implement them.

2. Level 4 itself, my view is that the difference/development here is in making a squad that truly responds to the opponent, Aikido-style, rather than imposing our strengths onto the opponent, Karate-style. It's that kind of 'be as water' but in a football sense. This is different and seperate to what we know as 'level 3'. The only 'level 3' manager who played to weaknesses as Rafa does was Lobanyovski. Sure, Milan, Holland, Ajax and Barca are hugely versatile and adaptable teams but they are still working from a 'one formation, best 11 when available' type mentality. Man Utd are perhaps 'level 3.5', but they haven't truly embraced complete adaptability in the way Rafa is doing.

3. Chelsea - Baz, I'd pretty much agree with you there, probably about the closest to what I'm talking about, but Jose was still working from a preferred formation and personnel to start games with, but willing to make massive changes from very early in games if plan a wasn't working. I can't remember him ever starting with the plan b in the way Rafa does from time to time, for example going 3-4-3 against watford, 3 central type strikers against Everton, or randomly picking a fringe player (Crouch) to start against Arsenal because that's a specific weak point.

4. Baz and Degs, this is going back to point 1 but let me expand a little:

"But yeah, maybe Level 4 does exist, but at the moment, we're not at Level 3 yet, and possibly there may still be a question if we can consistently be at that level before we should consider Level 4 and Liverpool?"

I think this is correct, we need to truly embrace 'level 3' before we can truly embrace 'level 4', but I think a lot of this is in place already, and a lot of the aspects I'm arguing are things that Rafa has done from the beginning, but has never quite had the squad to implement fully.

The ultimate test, and this will not happen any time soon, would be if we see a Liverpool side where the likes of Gerrard and Torres are deliberately left out of important games in order to implement a different style of play, or perhaps if we see players like this rounded to such and extent that we would see, for example, Torres as an out and out target man in one game, as a creator in another, in his current role the next.

I'd say that Gerrard's development suggests again that Rafa is looking to go beyond players who are perfect at one job in lots of positions, or lots of jobs in one position, but want's to round out players so that they can get as close as possible to doing any job in any position.

Reina would be another great example of this...who else sees a Keeper like Rafa does? Who else plays with a keeper who is more involved with the general play than many CB's are at other clubs?

Finally Degs:

"The great innovators have always been isolated"...I see your point and it's a good one, but it doesn't have to be that way. Some great innovators just appear in the right place at the right time, and Michels would be a great example...you can hardly describe Holland in the 60s as isolated or insular surely?


Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2008, 10:10:37 PM »
By the way the other thread similar to this (on Rafa's background with Sacchi's tactics http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=234700.0) was moved to OPINION.  Don't agree with that move.

I'm curious why not? I submitted it to be moved, it hasn't been getting consistent traffic on the main boards for a while now and I'm hoping that movement to the front page will introduce more new people to the discussion.

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2008, 10:13:08 PM »
What I'm getting at is without a title first every single change Rafa tries to implement now, unfortunately, is going to be met with derision the minute it doesn't work.
It's this fucking 19 year monkey on our backs, the closer we get to the top the less flexibility the manager will get before ultimately we break the curse and can do what the fuck we like without fear.

Yes, good point.  Wonder when Rafa will be properly respected.  Even with his La Liga titles the English press usually point out that these were won because Real Madrid and Barca slipped up (and you see Rafa did have many draws in the first half of the season there too).  Though, they forget he won the UEFA Cup that same season (followed by the Champions League a season later).  In my book the man's already done enough to earn respect.

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2008, 10:15:52 PM »
I'm curious why not? I submitted it to be moved, it hasn't been getting consistent traffic on the main boards for a while now and I'm hoping that movement to the front page will introduce more new people to the discussion.

Well, that's not a bad reason.  I thought it was moved there because they disagreed with Sacchi's relevance to Rafa's Liverpool (coming at the time of Capello's quote)

Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2008, 10:16:54 PM »
Yes, good point.  Wonder when Rafa will be properly respected.  Even with his La Liga titles the English press usually point out that these were won because Real Madrid and Barca slipped up (and you see Rafa did have many draws in the first half of the season there too).  Though, they forget he won the UEFA Cup that same season (followed by the Champions League a season later).  In my book the man's already done enough to earn respect.

Absolutely, but the English as a nation are particularly wary of innovation until it breeds success, at which point we can be extremely quick to embrace that as the new orthodoxy. I'd say rotation is getting that way already. I think in a few years time (maybe only a couple) manager's who don't rotate will either be seen as having a weakness or being hampered by limited means. The media already seems to be struggling to find new synonyms for rotation to apply to what Ferguson does so that they can still bash Rafa for it.

If Rafa doesn't win the title soon I could also see Ferguson being the man credited with the innovation of rotation, it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,793
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2008, 10:16:57 PM »
Finally Degs:

"The great innovators have always been isolated"...I see your point and it's a good one, but it doesn't have to be that way. Some great innovators just appear in the right place at the right time, and Michels would be a great example...you can hardly describe Holland in the 60s as isolated or insular surely?
Thanks for the response I get you a bit more but in regards to Michels Total Football came from years of development, Austria in 1930 were the first real ones to bite their teeth into it, there's a distinct line you can trace through the path of total football, with the people involved and where they went.

I can't remember his name but I remember reading about a Dutch fella who was playing in Belgium and was picked for the national side, being outside of the country his exposure t total football was limited to what the rest of the world saw and he found it difficult at first to adapt to it.
As time has gone on the isolation element has lessened but it's still present.
How big a nutcase is he? On a scale of 1 to Cassano.

Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2008, 10:17:21 PM »
Well, that's not a bad reason.  I thought it was moved there because they disagreed with Sacchi's relevance to Rafa's Liverpool (coming at the time of Capello's quote)

Sorted :)

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,793
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2008, 10:18:20 PM »
Yes, good point.  Wonder when Rafa will be properly respected.  Even with his La Liga titles the English press usually point out that these were won because Real Madrid and Barca slipped up (and you see Rafa did have many draws in the first half of the season there too).  Though, they forget he won the UEFA Cup that same season (followed by the Champions League a season later).  In my book the man's already done enough to earn respect.
I'm thinking of the lads on the stands and in the streets first and foremost, it's fucking shocking to hear people questioning Rafa when we're at the top of the table, but wherever you go in life you'll find people who know how to do everything better.
How big a nutcase is he? On a scale of 1 to Cassano.

Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2008, 10:22:44 PM »
Thanks for the response I get you a bit more but in regards to Michels Total Football came from years of development, Austria in 1930 were the first real ones to bite their teeth into it, there's a distinct line you can trace through the path of total football, with the people involved and where they went.

I can't remember his name but I remember reading about a Dutch fella who was playing in Belgium and was picked for the national side, being outside of the country his exposure t total football was limited to what the rest of the world saw and he found it difficult at first to adapt to it.
As time has gone on the isolation element has lessened but it's still present.

Oh completely, I'm trying to put this 'level 4' idea very much in that context, hence why I mentioned Scotland. I see the 'Aikido style' as being the logical progression of those ideas...the obvious next step that doesn't seem to have been widely embrace yet, wheras rotation is getting less and less controversial by the year.

Nice one for bringing up the 'Wunderteam' by the way...though that also shows how innovation can become the next orthodoxy, one of the great supporters of that system hated the innovation of pressing and the like, and Austrians in general (who are generally very keen on sports and tactically knowledgable in a way that most english aren't) still cling lovingly to the idea of the 'libero', in the same way we still cling to the idea of a flat 4-4-2 with Stanley Matthews style wingers even though both those ideas don't really work in the modern game.

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2008, 10:27:28 PM »
I'm thinking of the lads on the stands and in the streets first and foremost, it's fucking shocking to hear people questioning Rafa when we're at the top of the table, but wherever you go in life you'll find people who know how to do everything better.

Yeah.  We all have our opinions and even I disagree with Rafa many times, and agree with him many times... but nobody is faultless, we all makes mistakes... such fans need to support Rafa even when he makes those mistakes.  The criticism he got (particularly after I think it was the Fulham game with regard to Lucas etc) - that was disgraceful.  Hopefully they're the minority because it spoils the former reputation where in typical fashion the fans sang for the team while 2-0 down against Benfica OR Rafa's support during the draws last season

Offline b_joseph

  • Unloyal gloryhunter who was probably Kelly Osbourne in another life.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,425
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2008, 10:28:06 PM »


If Rafa doesn't win the title soon I could also see Ferguson being the man credited with the innovation of rotation, it wouldn't surprise me at all.
Which is funny because Ranieri and Houllier were deep into the rotation thing in this country years before SAF.

That being said, I'm not sure if rotation and exploiting weaknesses is level 4. IMO, it is one of the basic things that every manager has in their arsenal or should have in their arsenal.
A couple years ago, Ancelotti near enough perfected it when that Milan side ( 2002 to 2006 ) were cruising through the CL every single year.

I may have misunderstood what you were saying though.
Dry sheets, ice cream, jelly beans....3 of my favorite things.

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,793
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2008, 10:28:24 PM »
I can't remember his name but I remember reading about a Dutch fella who was playing in Belgium and was picked for the national side, being outside of the country his exposure t total football was limited to what the rest of the world saw and he found it difficult at first to adapt to it.
As time has gone on the isolation element has lessened but it's still present.
Rob Rensenbrink
How big a nutcase is he? On a scale of 1 to Cassano.

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2008, 10:34:15 PM »
I also seem to remember Mr Alex Ferguson rotating his players (though, not as extremely) about 10 years ago when they were by far the richest club in England and could afford a bigger stronger squad.  This is why they said the Mancs were stronger from Christmas and the press have already forgotten by the time Rafa came on board.  It was probably Ranieri who started gaving rotation a bad name, and all that just because of one Champions League defeat. 

I think the main difference with Mr Alex Ferguson over these years is that his method of keeping players fresher was to start them, take a 2 or 3 goal lead and then pull them out after the hour.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 10:37:42 PM by SteveZissou »

Offline Al 555

  • Pitbull #1
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,908
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2008, 10:42:55 PM »
Can't believe people are comparing Rafa and Mourinho they are completely different animals. Jose in my opinion is a football fraud, completely brilliant at what he does but what he does has very little to do with football tactics.

It's more to do with getting a small group of players and mentally getting them to close rank and become mentally tough.

Rafa's great strength is being able to watch a half of football and make subtle changes at half time that change the course of a game.

That is why Rafa is untouchable in Europe the first leg is just liking giving him a free look at your cards in Poker.

Mourinho just can't do this, his substitutions when he changes 3 players at half time are just an admission that he doesn't have the tactical nous to change games. He relies on trying to unsettle the opposition and gain a psychological advantage.

That's all he is a master of psychology who is great at motivating people.

In the end it was Rafa who cost Jose his job. Jose had a far better squad of players but a team who could only play in one way and in one formation. When he tried to change Chelsea's formation it went tits up for him.

Rafa refused to be psyched by Jose and just took him to the cleaners tactically.

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,793
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2008, 10:43:27 PM »
Nice one for bringing up the 'Wunderteam' by the way...though that also shows how innovation can become the next orthodoxy, one of the great supporters of that system hated the innovation of pressing and the like, and Austrians in general (who are generally very keen on sports and tactically knowledgable in a way that most english aren't) still cling lovingly to the idea of the 'libero', in the same way we still cling to the idea of a flat 4-4-2 with Stanley Matthews style wingers even though both those ideas don't really work in the modern game.
You wonder what a force that Wunderteam could have been if they weren't forced to join the Germans after the Anschluss, we might all be playing total football.

That Hitler eh, what a whopper.
How big a nutcase is he? On a scale of 1 to Cassano.

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2008, 10:47:20 PM »
Thanks for the response I get you a bit more but in regards to Michels Total Football came from years of development, Austria in 1930 were the first real ones to bite their teeth into it, there's a distinct line you can trace through the path of total football, with the people involved and where they went.



Do you have reference to a good English language article about total football in Austria in the 1930's?

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2008, 10:53:43 PM »
Can't believe people are comparing Rafa and Mourinho they are completely different animals. Jose in my opinion is a football fraud, completely brilliant at what he does but what he does has very little to do with football tactics.

It's more to do with getting a small group of players and mentally getting them to close rank and become mentally tough.

Rafa's great strength is being able to watch a half of football and make subtle changes at half time that change the course of a game.

That is why Rafa is untouchable in Europe the first leg is just liking giving him a free look at your cards in Poker.

Mourinho just can't do this, his substitutions when he changes 3 players at half time are just an admission that he doesn't have the tactical nous to change games. He relies on trying to unsettle the opposition and gain a psychological advantage.

That's all he is a master of psychology who is great at motivating people.

In the end it was Rafa who cost Jose his job. Jose had a far better squad of players but a team who could only play in one way and in one formation. When he tried to change Chelsea's formation it went tits up for him.

Rafa refused to be psyched by Jose and just took him to the cleaners tactically.

Agree with you completely.

Critics also fail to realise that Rafa is more open to flair players than Mourinho was.  Jose would never allow a player like Luis Garcia to flourish because he single-mindedly thinks all attackers must also defend.  Even though Rafa also wants his attackers to track back, he is open to possibilities, being far more flexible in how he positions his attackers, allowing free roles, not predictable as in Jose and also encourages his defenders to come into the game more so than Jose used to. 

Rafa summed up the problem beautifully.  He said that Jose and him were getting along well with Jose even praising him after Liverpool gave him a difficult tactical battle... but once Liverpool started beating Chelsea then Jose started to change his tune...

Online Mr Rossi

  • So poor he uses white dog poo as chalk. Head like a walnut. Cat lovin weirdo.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 5,757
  • Gender: Male
  • Loves a good earlobe.
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2008, 10:58:23 PM »
How many levels are there? I thought level 3 was the highest.
On the internet, men are men, women are men, and children are the CIA.

Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2008, 10:58:43 PM »
You wonder what a force that Wunderteam could have been if they weren't forced to join the Germans after the Anschluss, we might all be playing total football.

That Hitler eh, what a whopper.


Absolutely, doubly so because the star player Sindelar (one of the very first 'in the hole' players) was Jewish.

Do you have reference to a good English language article about total football in Austria in the 1930's?

Don't have any article links, but it's well covered in the book 'Inverting the Pyramid: A History of Football Tactics' by Jonathan Wilson, a simply superb book.

Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2008, 11:03:14 PM »
Which is funny because Ranieri and Houllier were deep into the rotation thing in this country years before SAF.

That being said, I'm not sure if rotation and exploiting weaknesses is level 4. IMO, it is one of the basic things that every manager has in their arsenal or should have in their arsenal.
A couple years ago, Ancelotti near enough perfected it when that Milan side ( 2002 to 2006 ) were cruising through the CL every single year.

I may have misunderstood what you were saying though.

On reflection perhaps I should define things differently.

To be totally fair, Ferguson and Wenger have been rotating for absolutely years, and were hugely slated for it (IE playing weaker sides in the CC, and then later the FA cups).

Where I think Rafa is different is that, yes, he mainly rotates for fitness, but he also rotates from game to game for purely tactical systems. I think many are 'rotating' and having 'strength in depth' to maintain fitness and replace injuries, but this is retroactive. I don't think there are many who do it pro-actively in terms of using specific personnel for specific types of games for specific tactical reasons.

So rotation for fitness is becoming orthodoxy, but I don't think there's many others who see the potential for this as a strength in and of itself, having 22 different options that can be tailored to the opposition once fitness has been taken into account.

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2008, 11:05:38 PM »
By the way the Germans have also been quite effective over the decades which is why they have outstanding tournament records, winning World Cups when they were not even amongst the favourites... even in recent times they exceeded expectations by getting to two finals and a semi final.  It may not be like Rafa and Sacchi's machine, but they also have a well oiled effective machine
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 11:48:55 PM by SteveZissou »

Offline BazC

  • ...is as good as Van Basten
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 23,476
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2008, 11:05:53 PM »
What I'm getting at is without a title first every single change Rafa tries to implement now, unfortunately, is going to be met with derision the minute it doesn't work.
It's this fucking 19 year monkey on our backs, the closer we get to the top the less flexibility the manager will get before ultimately we break the curse and can do what the fuck we like without fear.

Is that a reason not to pursue development though- that it gets met with hostile criticism? I say fuck those with such 'views'- they're only good enough to be pundits anyway!


Degs and Baz, I think your questions are related so I'll try and tackle them both, let me know if I've misunderstood:

1. Level 3, are we there yet? No, not consistently. However, basics have been put in place since 04-06 that have led to us being a lot closer to level 3 now then were then. Similarly, fundamentals of level 4 have also been put in place from much earlier then we are able to truly implement them.

2. Level 4 itself, my view is that the difference/development here is in making a squad that truly responds to the opponent, Aikido-style, rather than imposing our strengths onto the opponent, Karate-style. It's that kind of 'be as water' but in a football sense. This is different and seperate to what we know as 'level 3'. The only 'level 3' manager who played to weaknesses as Rafa does was Lobanyovski. Sure, Milan, Holland, Ajax and Barca are hugely versatile and adaptable teams but they are still working from a 'one formation, best 11 when available' type mentality. Man Utd are perhaps 'level 3.5', but they haven't truly embraced complete adaptability in the way Rafa is doing.

3. Chelsea - Baz, I'd pretty much agree with you there, probably about the closest to what I'm talking about, but Jose was still working from a preferred formation and personnel to start games with, but willing to make massive changes from very early in games if plan a wasn't working. I can't remember him ever starting with the plan b in the way Rafa does from time to time, for example going 3-4-3 against watford, 3 central type strikers against Everton, or randomly picking a fringe player (Crouch) to start against Arsenal because that's a specific weak point.

4. Baz and Degs, this is going back to point 1 but let me expand a little:

"But yeah, maybe Level 4 does exist, but at the moment, we're not at Level 3 yet, and possibly there may still be a question if we can consistently be at that level before we should consider Level 4 and Liverpool?"

I think this is correct, we need to truly embrace 'level 3' before we can truly embrace 'level 4', but I think a lot of this is in place already, and a lot of the aspects I'm arguing are things that Rafa has done from the beginning, but has never quite had the squad to implement fully.

The ultimate test, and this will not happen any time soon, would be if we see a Liverpool side where the likes of Gerrard and Torres are deliberately left out of important games in order to implement a different style of play, or perhaps if we see players like this rounded to such and extent that we would see, for example, Torres as an out and out target man in one game, as a creator in another, in his current role the next.

I'd say that Gerrard's development suggests again that Rafa is looking to go beyond players who are perfect at one job in lots of positions, or lots of jobs in one position, but want's to round out players so that they can get as close as possible to doing any job in any position.

Reina would be another great example of this...who else sees a Keeper like Rafa does? Who else plays with a keeper who is more involved with the general play than many CB's are at other clubs?

Finally Degs:

"The great innovators have always been isolated"...I see your point and it's a good one, but it doesn't have to be that way. Some great innovators just appear in the right place at the right time, and Michels would be a great example...you can hardly describe Holland in the 60s as isolated or insular surely?

Cheers. That bit in bold is a very interesting viewpoint! And something that's almost scary to think about. I guess that's what Degs means- imagine the fall out if we fuck up on the back of not playing Torres or Gerrard!

And of course, something to bare in mind is how well we did against Man U with Torres and Gerrard on the bench. Masch and Xabi truly stepped into the fore that day. And Chelsea as well.

Offline Al 555

  • Pitbull #1
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,908
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2008, 11:10:45 PM »
Agree with you completely.

Critics also fail to realise that Rafa is more open to flair players than Mourinho was.  Jose would never allow a player like Luis Garcia to flourish because he single-mindedly thinks all attackers must also defend.  Even though Rafa also wants his attackers to track back, he is open to possibilities, being far more flexible in how he positions his attackers, allowing free roles, not predictable as in Jose and also encourages his defenders to come into the game more so than Jose used to. 

Rafa summed up the problem beautifully.  He said that Jose and him were getting along well with Jose even praising him after Liverpool gave him a difficult tactical battle... but once Liverpool started beating Chelsea then Jose started to change his tune...
Makes me laugh in this day and age when people call Rafa negative and cautious.
Rafa is a football purist he is consumed with improving his and his teams football acumen.

I can't think of another manager that has had the courage to do what Rafa did when he walked away from CF Extremadura after almost keeping them in La liga's top flight against all the odds.

Many people in Spain thought he had another top flight job lined up.

Instead he went on a football pilgrimage around Europe's top clubs and took the best things from each football culture and moulded his own football philophosy.

So I think if any Manager has the potential to reach level 4 it may well be Rafa

Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2008, 11:11:14 PM »
Is that a reason not to pursue development though- that it gets met with hostile criticism? I say fuck those with such 'views'- they're only good enough to be pundits anyway!


Cheers. That bit in bold is a very interesting viewpoint! And something that's almost scary to think about. I guess that's what Degs means- imagine the fall out if we fuck up on the back of not playing Torres or Gerrard!

And of course, something to bare in mind is how well we did against Man U with Torres and Gerrard on the bench. Masch and Xabi truly stepped into the fore that day. And Chelsea as well.


Exactly, the fall out is not to be sniffed at and it is a factor...Rafa needs success in the league before he can take things as far as he can. On the other hand I really think the seeds are already there, the efficiency of our system regardless of personnell (the Man Utd game, the Germany example, Lucas on for Gerrard in the Derby, the quality of football we often display when Gerrard is missing, eg Arsenal away last season). Certainly the thought of this really working is one of the main things that gets me hugely excited about our future under Rafa, it already is hugely exciting how flexible we are, as that Keane V Arsenal goal epitomises.

Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2008, 11:15:56 PM »
How many levels are there? I thought level 3 was the highest.

It's a largely arbitrary distinction, but a useful one to distinguish different types of football. I'm just using level 4 as it is for me the obvious progression of level 3 ideas...namely flexibility beyond the first 11, a squad rather than a best 11, changing tactics in advance of games rather than just during them etc, and in also because the bit about truly playing according to opposition weakness more than our own strength strikes me as something pretty new and unique about Rafa, or at least an idea that he is taking further than anyone else I can think of...even Lobanyovski (probably the first truly modern manager, absurdly ahead of his time, used computers and stuff as early as the 60s) still largely stuck with one formation, albeit a hugely adaptable one.

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2008, 11:16:06 PM »

The ultimate test, and this will not happen any time soon, would be if we see a Liverpool side where the likes of Gerrard and Torres are deliberately left out of important games in order to implement a different style of play,

or perhaps if we see players like this rounded to such and extent that we would see, for example, Torres as an out and out target man in one game, as a creator in another, in his current role the next

I think we've already seen this.  One example I think was away to Real Betis who were quite a dangerous Spanish team at the time.  He played specific tactics without Gerrard, even more surprising was the quick 2-0 lead... We didn't have Torres then but he did surprisingly give Sinama (who was central to the new tactic) a rare start (instead of Cisse)

Rafa would have liked to do this more often but the problem is Stevie's player power.  This was underlined in the derby when he had to explain himself for substituting Stevie even though his replacement Lucas played so well and created the winner.  Stevie's position has long been an issue but Rafa's found a solution to keep him in all these games by moving him around.  This is evident in how Stevie was moved to left midfield in some of the big games (which in some cases was to take advantage of a weak right back)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2008, 11:21:28 PM by SteveZissou »

Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2008, 11:21:39 PM »
I think we've already seen this to a smaller extent in the Champions League.  One example I think was away to Real Betis who were quite a dangerous Spanish team at the time.  He played specific tactics without Gerrard, even more surprising was the quick 2-0 lead... We didn't have Torres then but he did surprisingly give Sinama a rare start (instead of Cisse)

Rafa would have liked to do this more often but the problem is Stevie's player power.  This was underlined in the derby when he had to explain himself for removing Stevie even though his replacement Lucas played so well and created the winner.  Stevie's position has long been an issue but Rafa's found a solution to keep him in all these games by moving him around.  This is evident in how Stevie was moved to left midfield in some of the big games (which in some cases was to take advantage of a weak right back)

This is why I see Gerrard's recent comments (in the wake of his decade anniversary) about having a 'perfect' relationship with Rafa, having been 'selfish' in the past and now being willing to 'play anywhere' strike me as one of the most important and positive developments this season...that player power is a massive factor but it works both ways, as much as Gerrard has at times been a spanner in the works he can also drag many players with him...even if they don't understand/back the manager themselves if they see that Gerrard is a convert then, at the very least, they won't be noisy in their criticisms of Rafa. After all, who would you listen to...Gerrard or Babel (not saying he's directly criticising but I'm sure you see my point)?

Offline Degs

  • sy's midnight runners.
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 11,793
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2008, 11:24:09 PM »
Do you have reference to a good English language article about total football in Austria in the 1930's?
As mentioned above inverting the pyramid.
How big a nutcase is he? On a scale of 1 to Cassano.

Offline SteveZissou

  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,933
  • you might be on B Squad, but ur the B squad leader
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2008, 11:29:12 PM »
This is why I see Gerrard's recent comments (in the wake of his decade anniversary) about having a 'perfect' relationship with Rafa, having been 'selfish' in the past and now being willing to 'play anywhere' strike me as one of the most important and positive developments this season...that player power is a massive factor but it works both ways, as much as Gerrard has at times been a spanner in the works he can also drag many players with him...even if they don't understand/back the manager themselves if they see that Gerrard is a convert then, at the very least, they won't be noisy in their criticisms of Rafa. After all, who would you listen to...Gerrard or Babel (not saying he's directly criticising but I'm sure you see my point)?

Indeed, Gerrard is certainly maturing... each season his understanding of Rafa's ways has improved... As Gerrard said himself, he acted like a child, but using that term Stevie is now wiser for it... the media in England still needs to grow up

Offline dannymc

  • Wannabee RAWK dogger
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,158
  • Gender: Male
  • Lucas Leiva, tell me what's ya flava, ohh.
    • View Profile
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2008, 11:56:09 PM »
Rafa's hierarchy of needs  :D
If he scores more goals than Torres this season ill change me name to Carol.

Offline hesbighesred

  • But you can call me quick fingers, if you can prise them off Dirk's balls
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legend
  • *****
  • Posts: 6,197
  • Gender: Male
  • Le Silk
    • View Profile
    • Join/Support SOS
Re: Level 4: Does it exist and can Rafa take us there?
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2008, 12:20:57 AM »
Makes me laugh in this day and age when people call Rafa negative and cautious.
Rafa is a football purist he is consumed with improving his and his teams football acumen.

I can't think of another manager that has had the courage to do what Rafa did when he walked away from CF Extremadura after almost keeping them in La liga's top flight against all the odds.

Many people in Spain thought he had another top flight job lined up.

Instead he went on a football pilgrimage around Europe's top clubs and took the best things from each football culture and moulded his own football philophosy.

So I think if any Manager has the potential to reach level 4 it may well be Rafa

I should have responded to this before, good post and a great observation. It's something I think all/most managers could benefit from hugely and very few actually do. It's something that I have to say I really respect Steve McClaren for, responding to failure by taking on a very difficult and very different challenge, I hope he benefits from this.

It's worth mentioning (and was discussed in the Sacchi thread) that this was something Sacchi himself did, namely learning from those he rated and respected, among his main influences being the Dutch sides and Liverpool of the 70s and 80s.

There's certainly a very pleasing symmetry in all this, with Sacchi often cited by Rafa himself as something akin to his football guru.