Author Topic: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....  (Read 5163 times)

Offline litliper

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Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« on: December 23, 2008, 02:46:03 PM »
...fourth apparently.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=604869&sec=england&root=england&cc=5739&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

STAT ATTACK
From top to bottom

By Rob Smyth
(Archive)

December 23, 2008

Rafael Benitez reckons that Liverpool have an 80% chance of winning the Premier League if they are top after the Christmas period. Yet the 120-year history of the English top flight suggests that, right now, their chances are only half that. Of all the teams who have been top of Christmas Day in the 109 seasons going back to 1888-89, only 41% have gone on to win the league. In the last 20 years, however, that figure shrinks to 30%, while in the Premier League era it is 38%.

Six of the 16 leaders at Christmas since 1992 have gone on to take the title: Manchester United (1993-94, 2000-01 and 2006-07), Blackburn (1994-95) and Chelsea (2004-05 and 2005-06). The only teams from outside the Big Four to have led the Premier League at Christmas only to slip down the table are Norwich (1992-93, when they finished third), Newcastle (1995-96, second), Aston Villa (1998-99, sixth), Leeds (1999-2000, third) and Newcastle (2001-02, fourth).

Percentage of Christmas leaders to win league

• Premier League (1992-2008) - 37.50 (6 out of 16)
• Football League (1888-1992) - 41.94 (39 out of 93)
• Overall (1888-2008) - 41.28 (45 out of 109)

The last time Liverpool led the league at Christmas, in 1996-97, they finished fourth. Still, it could be worse. In 1949-50, Liverpool were top on December 25 - and ended up in eighth place. That's the lowest a Christmas No1 has plummeted: Sunderland (1936-37) and Manchester United (1971-72) also achieved this dubious feat.

Overall Liverpool have been top at Christmas on 15 occasions, 10 of which (or 66.67%) they have converted into a title triumph. Yet perhaps their proudest Christmas-related statistic is the fact that they are the only side to win English football's main prize having been in the bottom half at Christmas. They were 12th in 1981-82, having taken 24 points from their first 16 games, but after that they won 20 of their final 26 games to take the title. The next-best new year charge came from Dave Mackay's Derby, who were 10th on 25/12/1974 and top of the pile when it really mattered, on 29/04/1975.

The bottom team, West Bromwich Albion, know all about great escapes: they are famously the only team to avoid relegation having been bottom of the Premier League on Christmas Day. That escape came under Bryan Robson in 2004-05; but while the statistics of the Premier League suggest they only have a 6% chance of avoiding relegation, the overall history of the English top flight is much more positive: 29% of teams (31 out of 106) have avoided relegation after propping up the rear on Christmas Day.

Percentage of teams bottom at Christmas to avoid relegation

• Premier League (1992-2008) - 6.25 (one out of 16)
• Football League (1888-1992) - 33.33 (30 out of 90)
• Overall (1888-2008) - 29.25 (31 out of 106*)

*NB: for the first three seasons of the Football League there was no relegation

One of the more dramatic recoveries came from Sheffield United in 1990-91. They did not win a game until December 22, and went into Christmas seven points off safety. But they finished 13th and, after December 25, took more points than Liverpool, who led the table at Christmas.

The most impressive revival, however, came from Sunderland, who are the only team to finish in the top half of the table having been bottom at Christmas. That occurred in 1929-30: they were 22nd on Christmas Day, but won 13 of the following 23 games to finish ninth.

The reverse, sides who have been relegated after enjoying Christmas in the top half of the table, is more common. There have been eight instances: Notts County in 1892-93 (7th to 14th), Nottingham Forest in 1910-11 (9th to 20th), Spurs in 1927-28 (7th to 21st), Southampton in 1973-74 (9th to 20th), Manchester City in 1982-83 (9th to 20th) Norwich in 1984-85 (11th to 18th), Chelsea in 1987-88 (8th to 18th) and Norwich again in 1994-95 (7th to 20th). With only nine points separating Hull City in sixth and Manchester City in 18th, a repeat is certainly not impossible.
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Offline ollick

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2008, 02:48:05 PM »
Rafa said AFTER Christmas you dumb c*nt.

Not a big fan of statty articles.
Why do people quote other people for the sigs?  What' the point?

Offline Rigden

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2008, 02:53:53 PM »
litliper is a party pooper.
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Offline ollick

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2008, 02:55:43 PM »
I wasn't calling litliper a c*nt by the way, whoever wrote that piece.
Why do people quote other people for the sigs?  What' the point?

Offline litliper

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2008, 02:55:57 PM »
I wasn't calling litliper a c*nt by the way, whoever wrote that piece.

I understood that  :)
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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2008, 02:56:37 PM »
I'm not expecting the title anyway, so long as the mancs don't win it and we put up a good fight that's good enough for me. It'd be asking a lot to win it in our first season of challenging.
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Offline litliper

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2008, 02:56:42 PM »
litliper is a party pooper.

I do what I can ;)
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Offline red_til_i_die

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2008, 02:58:08 PM »
i thought rafa actually said that if we were still top in february then we've got an 80%
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Offline Redshadow

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2008, 02:58:22 PM »
A manc (he is) supporter tried to humor himself while at the same tried to plant seeds of doubts  among us!
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Offline stewil007

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2008, 03:02:41 PM »
3 out of the last 4 prem seasons, the leaders at christmas have won the prem, if we go just on last years stat, then 0% have gone on and won.

stats suit any argument you care to raise.

i hate stats and people who live by them for everything

Offline litliper

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2008, 03:03:29 PM »
A manc (he is) supporter tried to humor himself while at the same tried to plant seeds of doubts  among us!

Wasn't aware of that. I just thought the stats about how often the teams that are top at christmas actually win the league were interesting. Also interesting to see when we were top at christmas last time and where we finished then. Rob Smyth can shove that 80% talk of his up his ass for all I care.
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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2008, 03:07:37 PM »
Christ if only we had lost at Arsenal
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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2008, 03:28:44 PM »
The harder you beat the stats, the more it will tell you what you want to hear.
I'm just estatic we have a damn good chance of winning the league instead of chasing from a position where it borders being hopeful or wildly optimistic

Offline finchy1972

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2008, 03:28:59 PM »
i thought rafa actually said that if we were still top in february then we've got an 80%
Thought he said in may
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Offline Immoral King Brian Blessed

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2008, 03:34:01 PM »
"They were 12th in 1981-82, having taken 24 points from their first 16 games"

Can you imagine if those were the stats for this season? RAWK would be in meltdown.

Offline VivaElNino

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2008, 03:34:58 PM »
All I can say is that we have won the first half of the season and over the last few years we have been better at the end of a season than at the beginning so....BRING ON 2009! (and the couple of games left this year!)

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2008, 03:35:30 PM »
I'm not expecting the title anyway, so long as the mancs don't win it and we put up a good fight that's good enough for me. It'd be asking a lot to win it in our first season of challenging.
If we don't win it this season, the Mancs will.
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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2008, 03:36:38 PM »
If we don't win it this season, the Mancs will.

sadly that is how i see it too

Offline rebel23

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2008, 03:36:56 PM »
these kinds of stats are meaningless, like 'the team top at xmas has won it 3 out of the last 4 years, the only exception being Arsenal last year' oh really, so why cant it happen this year?  there's no logic in these stats and we won't be finishing 4th

Offline litliper

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2008, 03:41:52 PM »
these kinds of stats are meaningless, like 'the team top at xmas has won it 3 out of the last 4 years, the only exception being Arsenal last year' oh really, so why cant it happen this year?  there's no logic in these stats and we won't be finishing 4th


Better to think of it as a fun fact (perhaps not so fun in this case) rather then a "since it happened like that before then surely it will happen again." Which is the error most sports commentators make.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 03:43:48 PM by litliper »
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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2008, 03:44:42 PM »
Rob Smyth of the Manchester Guardian in pessimistic article on Liverpool shocker.

Next up read Joe Frazier's unbiased review of Muhammad Ali's career.

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2008, 03:45:37 PM »
We don't care about others, only what we do.

This is the stat that matters:
Overall Liverpool have been top at Christmas on 15 occasions, 10 of which (or 66.67%) they have converted into a title triumph.

So two out of three times we go on and win the League. Not bad odds.  8)
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Offline Rafas Tapas

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2008, 03:47:33 PM »
"They were 12th in 1981-82, having taken 24 points from their first 16 games"

Can you imagine if those were the stats for this season? RAWK would be in meltdown.

Sir Bob certainly went spare, after City hammered us 3:1 at Maine Road, either on Boxing Day or New Year's Day that season I can't remember which.  That was Thommo's last game as captain.

Offline Immoral King Brian Blessed

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2008, 03:49:04 PM »
Sir Bob certainly went spare, after City hammered us 3:1 at Maine Road, either on Boxing Day or New Year's Day that season I can't remember which.  That was Thommo's last game as captain.


And today's fans would want Bob's head on a platter.

Offline Rafas Tapas

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2008, 03:54:13 PM »
And today's fans would want Bob's head on a platter.

True.


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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #25 on: December 23, 2008, 03:59:01 PM »
Nice positive thread.  ::)
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Offline Rafas Tapas

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #26 on: December 23, 2008, 04:03:48 PM »
Nice positive thread.  ::)

Well I'm reminiscing about a time LFC were out of the league at Christmas and we stormed through to win it under the best manager in history.  Isn't that positive?


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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #27 on: December 23, 2008, 04:05:35 PM »
We don't care about others, only what we do.

This is the stat that matters:
Overall Liverpool have been top at Christmas on 15 occasions, 10 of which (or 66.67%) they have converted into a title triumph.

So two out of three times we go on and win the League. Not bad odds.  8)

These are the stats we wanna hear 'bout our club. Not some whinging mancs take on the fact that they aint top. Imagine the stats if they were top now. Fuck 'em, and all who sail in 'em. This season I've only concentrated on MY CLUB, in MY CITY. Total support for the greatest football team.

 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)


'Nuff said...

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2008, 04:05:59 PM »
Well I'm reminiscing about a time LFC were out of the league at Christmas and we stormed through to win it under the best manager in history.  Isn't that positive?


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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2008, 04:12:38 PM »
i thought rafa actually said that if we were still top in february then we've got an 80%

make it april ;)

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #30 on: December 23, 2008, 04:18:46 PM »
just concentrate on bolton boxin day! hopefully not another home draw
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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #31 on: December 23, 2008, 04:19:42 PM »
I think the team who is top at the end of May has 100% chance of winning it. The rest's bollacks really.
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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #32 on: December 23, 2008, 04:23:11 PM »
Fuck the statistics man.Close the thread.

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #33 on: December 23, 2008, 04:32:33 PM »
Last time we were anywhere in the league at christmas we finished fourth pretty much...enjoy being top and live in renewed and worthwhile hope that we're there at the end of the season.

Offline todda

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #34 on: December 23, 2008, 04:39:04 PM »
Scolari stated that 97 points will win the league this season, now going on the current rate after exactly half the games, if the leaders (us) got the same points in the 2nd half of the season we'd end up with 78.

IMO 78 won't win the league, but, neither with Scolari's prediction of 97, I think to win the title this season it'll be more like 88 to 90 points that means we realistically we have to take and average of around 2.6 points (approx) per game. Chelsea will have to take 2.7 (av per game) and if Man U win their 2 games in hand so will they.

I could be wrong and it could be lower than 88 but, it won't be much lower so we need to start turning these draws into wins and keep the losses to a minimum, we can probably afford to lose to Man U at OT but, we need to beat both Chelsea and Arsenal at Anfield, and I think we can do that.

c'mon you Redmen

Scolari can't get to 97 points now even if they win all their remaining games (95 would be the most they could get)
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 04:41:27 PM by todda »
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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #35 on: December 23, 2008, 04:47:50 PM »



 we can probably afford to lose to Man U at OT but, we need to beat both Chelsea and Arsenal at Anfield, and I think we can do that.


I can see us winning at Castle Greyskull an all mate
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Offline Beninger

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2008, 04:48:48 PM »
Important thing is, we're number one, and it's ours to lose.  We don't have to play catch up to anyone.  We're also a terror at the end of the season.

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2008, 04:50:49 PM »
Scolari stated that 97 points will win the league this season, now going on the current rate after exactly half the games, if the leaders (us) got the same points in the 2nd half of the season we'd end up with 78.

IMO 78 won't win the league, but, neither with Scolari's prediction of 97, I think to win the title this season it'll be more like 88 to 90 points that means we realistically we have to take and average of around 2.6 points (approx) per game. Chelsea will have to take 2.7 (av per game) and if Man U win their 2 games in hand so will they.

I could be wrong and it could be lower than 88 but, it won't be much lower so we need to start turning these draws into wins and keep the losses to a minimum, we can probably afford to lose to Man U at OT but, we need to beat both Chelsea and Arsenal at Anfield, and I think we can do that.

c'mon you Redmen

Scolari can't get to 97 points now even if they win all their remaining games (95 would be the most they could get)

It's not halfway yet, so your data is wrong.

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=226100.msg5164965#msg5164965

Offline Beninger

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2008, 04:51:26 PM »
With Nando, Skrtel and Aurelio coming back in a week or two, and Keane starting to do what he does, we're looking pretty damn good. 

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Re: Last time Liverpool were top at christmas they finished....
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2008, 04:55:44 PM »
Rafa said AFTER Christmas you dumb c*nt

 :lmao

Lets re-phrase that: Rafa said AFTER Christmas you dumb manc c*nt

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