Topic: Big Four - 08/09 home games comparison - 'not as bad as you think...'

[Dr Cornwallis]

I think that's the problem at the moment at home.

Funny how Chelsea and Arsenal both have the same problem at home as us.  I think it's more of a mentality of the visiting teams.
Here are the comparative home games of the top 4, in all competitions.

Liverpool v

Hull 2-2
West Ham 0-0
Marseille 1-0
Fulham 0-0
W Brom 3-0
At Madrid 1-1
Pompey 1-0
Wigan 3-2
PSV 3-1
Crewe 2-1
Stoke 0-0
United 2-1
Liege 1-0
Boro 2-1

P14 W9  D5  L0  F22  A9 *Points 32



Chelsea v

West Ham 1-1
Cluj 2-1
Arsenal 1-2
Newcastle 0-0
Burnley 1-1
Sunderland 5-0
Liverpool 0-1
Roma 1-0
Villa 2-0
Man United 1-1
Bourdeaux 4-0
Spurs 1-1
Portsmouth 4-0

P11 W6 D5 L2 F24 A8 *Points 23



Arsenal v

Wigan 1-0
Kiev 1-0
Villa 0-2
Wigan 3-0
United 2-1
Fenerbahce 0-0
Spurs 4-4
Everton 3-1
Porto 4-0
Hull 1-2
Sheff United 6-0
Newcastle 3-0
Twente 4-0
West Brom 1-0

P14 W10 D2 L2 F33 A10 *Points 32



Man United v

Aalborg 2-2
Sunderland 1-0
Blackburn 5-3
Stoke 5-0
QPR 1-0
Hull 4-3
West Ham 2-0
Celtic 3-0
West Brom 4-0
Bolton 2-0
United 3-1
Villareal 0-0
Newcastle 1-1

P13 W10 D3 L0 F33 A10 *Points 33



So, in terms of our home form being shite, if you were to formulate the whole thing in the same way as the league (3 points per win etc)  then we don't look too shabby, and United are only possibly 4 points better than us if they win their game in hand.

In terms of the fuss being made about some games, it is handy to do a comparison.  Notably the games against Hull, West Ham, Stoke. 

Firstly, Hull.  They've beaten Arsenal at the Emirates, drew with us at Anfield and narrowly lost to United at OT.  United were given a massive helping hand when Ronaldo put them ahead in the 3rd minute.
Secondly, West Ham.  United got the rub of the green in terms of facing West Ham during their horrific run of 4 straight defeats in October, very much a bedding-in period for Zola.  An early goal also boosted United and that came courtesy of Ronaldo in the 14th minute.  We drew with West Ham recently, but the Hammers have become a hard team to beat in recent times and this is a move to stop them losing games but doesn't mean that they try awfully hard to win games.  Their stats since that run in October have seen the Hammer play 7 games, winning 1 of those, drawing 4 (Liverpool, Chelsea, Portsmouth, Boro), losing twice (both at home!) and scoring only 4 goals and conceding only 7, 3 of those in their home loss to Everton where they imploded by letting in 3 goals in the final 7 minutes of the game.
Thirdly, Stoke City.  They've only played two big boys so far, drawing with us and being beaten by United 5-0.  Again, United got off to a great start when they went ahead in the 3rd minute.  The goal scored by...Ronaldo.

Yes, that's right.  The three teams we have been gutted about drawing to have gone to OT and lost, but each time it's been Ronaldo as first goal scorer, and on two occassions he got off the mark in the 3rd minute!  I think this indicates a couple of things...

- United are still very much a one-man team when it comes to breaking down tricky defences
- United go for the jugular very early and break the spirit of teams
- We miss Nando


The other 0-0 was against Fulham, a team that has yet to visit any of the other big four and a team with plenty of ability, and a team with a bizarre record this season...
Their last 3 away games have all been 0-0 (Liverpool, Villa, Stoke)
They've lost 5 games away from home this season, and in 4 of those five games they conceded the losing goal in the final ten minutes (Hull 81 mins, Blackburn 84 mins, Burnley 88 mins, Everton 87 mins). 
Overall, away from home they've never won a game this season, but they've drawn 4, lost 4, scored 2 and conceded only 6 in those 8 games.

We've got to give ourselves a break.

[mattmiles]

As you show there - an early goal is vital.

[Dr Cornwallis]

As you show there - an early goal is vital.

We never go for the other team from the first minute, and the longer we leave it, the more confident the visiting team gets.

[JohnBarnesBigToe]

As is the need to have quick direct forwards.

[StuH]

I think a comparison of points and who they were against in the PL only is more relevant.

[Canada Loves Anfield]

We never go for the other team from the first minute, and the longer we leave it, the more confident the visiting team gets.

Or we score in the 4th minute and get our only loss of the season.

[shanklyboy]

We never go for the other team from the first minute, and the longer we leave it, the more confident the visiting team gets.

Never?
What about Saturday against Hull?

[Dr Cornwallis]

I think a comparison of points and who they were against in the PL only is more relevant.

Why?  As an overview of how good a team is you need to look at how they react to good and bad teams coming to play them.  Shitter sides will tend to sit back and wait for a chance from a set-piece whereas a better side will go to attack you and win the game.  Just because you have full points from playing shit teams at home does not mean that you're going to romp home with full points come the end of the season.  Look what happens when United are outside of their comfort zone.  Only three times have United not won at home and look at what happened during the game.  Martins gave Newcastle a lead at OT, and eventually drew whereas Villareal are a good team and took a point from them, and Aalborg attacked United when they could and were leading 2-1 at one point.  If you sit back and allow United to come at you, then you will get a battering from the first minute.

Here is another way to analyse some attitudes at home.  Here are the number of times the big four have scored the first goal in the first 30 minutes of a game...

United - 13 (W9 D3 L1 Pts 30)
Liverpool - 8 (W5 D2 L1 Pts 17)
Chelsea - 11 (W8 D2 L1 Pts 26)
Arsenal - 10 (W9 D1 L0 Pts 28)


Here is another way to analyse some attitudes at home.  Here are the number of times the big four have scored the first goal in the first 10 minutes of a game...

United - 4 (W2 D1 L1 Pts 7) v Liverpool/Hull/Stoke/Aalborg
Liverpool - 3 (W2 D0 L1 Pts 6) v PSV, Chelsea, Tottenham
Chelsea - 3 (W3 D0 L0 Pts 9) v Bolton/Hull/Wigan
Arsenal - 3 (W3 D0 L0 Pts 9) v West Brom/Blackburn/Fenerbahce

From the above list of teams scored against, it seems that Liverpool tend to save their quick starts for the more diffucult opponents, whereas the other top teams exercised an early lead over the shitter teams in the league and went onto win the game in most cases, only Aalborg bucked the trend but the match was effectively a dead rubber.

[4pool]

So we're still top of the League then..

[Dr Cornwallis]

Or we score in the 4th minute and get our only loss of the season.

That's an exception to the rule rather than part of any pattern.  Spurs had just changed manager, were bouyant, and are a good team anyway rather than the winnable games we have been no narked about.  An own goal and 91st minute winner are not a common occurence.

Never?
What about Saturday against Hull?

What about it?  We didn't score.  United and Chelsea both scored in the first 10 mins against Hull and went onto win the game.

[Jason McG]

We never go for the other team from the first minute, and the longer we leave it, the more confident the visiting team gets.

We did on Saturday.

[Shaded Red]

Thought it'll be useful to look at home form in the PL anyway

Liverpool      P9  W5  D4  L0  F13  A6     19 Points

2-2 Hull
0-0 West Ham
0-0 Fulham
3-0 W Brom
1-0 Pompey
3-2 Wigan
0-0 Stoke
2-1 Man United
2-1 Boro

Chelsea        P9  W3  D4  L2  F15  A6     13 Points

1-1 West Ham
1-2 Arsenal
0-0 Newcastle
5-0 Sunderland
0-1 Liverpool
2-0 Villa
1-1 Man United
1-1 Spurs
4-0 Portsmouth

Man Utd        P7  W6  D1  L0  F19  A4     19 Points

1-0 Sunderland
5-0 Stoke
4-3 Hull
2-0 West Ham
4-0 West Brom
2-0 Bolton
1-1 Newcastle
    
Arsenal     P8  W5  D1  L2  F15  A10    16 Points

1-0 Wigan
0-2 Villa
2-1 Man United
4-4 Spurs
3-1 Everton
1-2 Hull
3-0 Newcastle
1-0 West Brom

[Yiannis]

We did on Saturday.

Well we need to do that at every home game like United and Chelsea used to in the past years.If we are gonna win the league that's the way we should treat our opponents at Anfield and leave them no room to breathe

[KingKolo]

Forget Europe:

Team                        Pd W D L   Pts
1 Manchester United    7   6 1 0   19
2 Liverpool                 9   5 4 0   19
3 Fulham                    8   5 2 1   17
4 Stoke City               9   5 2 2   17
5 Arsenal                   8   5 1 2   16
6 Aston Villa               9   4 4 1   16
7 Portsmouth              9   3 4 2   14
8 Wigan Athletic          9   4 2 3   14
9 Chelsea                   9   3 4 2   13

But we have just drawn 3 at home on the bounce.
So right now our home-form is worse than that table suggests.

It's not hard to work out why we're struggling at the moment.
We've always been a team that lacks cutting edge in the final 3rd, because our attacking players are not good enough.
Sadly, players like Benayoun, Keane, Kuyt, Riera, Babel and Ngog do not compare too well to the likes of Ronaldo, Nani and Tevez or Anelka, Deco and Joe Cole.
So without both Torres and Gerrard fit and firing, we are a bit short of goals.

Stoke 0-0, Fulham 0-0, West Ham 0-0, Hull 2-2.
Since all the goals were scored with an hour to go on Saturday, the above games represent 340 minutes of football at Anfield against lesser sides, with no goals scored.
Total rubbish, and not good enough.
But the prem is tough, and you need your best players fit.
Somehow, we're still top, and still have a little lead on Utd.

We just need to squeak through our next few games until we get Skrtel and Torres back, and then hopefully we'll get back into gear.

[Phatz]

So we're still top of the League then..

Thats all that matters, where we are now and how we take it through to the bitter end. TOP OF THE LEAGUE. Full stop. End of.

 

[StuH]

Why? 

Because I think PL form and CL form are very different and the two competitions present very different challenges.

Someone has done it now anyway.  The Mancs do have the best home record, no doubt but their away record is decidedly average.  Lets hope that keeps up (the only worry is they have had most of their toughest aways now arguably).

[Rafas Red Army]

Still no excuses for drawing three games in a row at home.

Now we've got to win at Arsenal away when we could've been 7 points clear if it weren't for those silly dropped points.

[Kokop]

So we're still top of the League then..

Hmmmmm, seems the others are doing us a favour?

Still, see quote no?

[Sat1]

Mancs 0-0 with Villareal and 2-2 with that shite team were games of no significance. They only got complacent against Hull coz they were winning 4-1.

[Dr Cornwallis]

Forget Europe:

Team                        Pd W D L   Pts
1 Manchester United    7   6 1 0   19
2 Liverpool                 9   5 4 0   19
3 Fulham                    8   5 2 1   17
4 Stoke City               9   5 2 2   17
5 Arsenal                   8   5 1 2   16
6 Aston Villa               9   4 4 1   16
7 Portsmouth              9   3 4 2   14
8 Wigan Athletic          9   4 2 3   14
9 Chelsea                   9   3 4 2   13

But we have just drawn 3 at home on the bounce.
So right now our home-form is worse than that table suggests.

It's not hard to work out why we're struggling at the moment.
We've always been a team that lacks cutting edge in the final 3rd, because our attacking players are not good enough.
Sadly, players like Benayoun, Keane, Kuyt, Riera, Babel and Ngog do not compare too well to the likes of Ronaldo, Nani and Tevez or Anelka, Deco and Joe Cole.
So without both Torres and Gerrard fit and firing, we are a bit short of goals.

Stoke 0-0, Fulham 0-0, West Ham 0-0, Hull 2-2.
Since all the goals were scored with an hour to go on Saturday, the above games represent 340 minutes of football at Anfield against lesser sides, with no goals scored.
Total rubbish, and not good enough.
But the prem is tough, and you need your best players fit.
Somehow, we're still top, and still have a little lead on Utd.

We just need to squeak through our next few games until we get Skrtel and Torres back, and then hopefully we'll get back into gear.

Those two games United have in hand are Boro and Chelsea.  Chelsea have the best away form around, 8 wins from 8.
Boro have got results away to Everton, Villa, Blackburn, Wigan this season.  Evra will still be banned for both these games, they may get injuries from the World Club Cup as well.  So we may or may not be just a couple of points behind United in terms of home results this season.  We've had some shitty luck, we've been without the best striker on the planet and our replacement £20m striker hasn't been a success and had 3 piss poor draws on the trot and yet we're STILL right at the top of the league both overall Premiership table and on home form alone.

I don't see where these big stories about how we're choking on the pressure come from, we're going through our bad patch NOW and we're still top, surely that indicates that the likes of Chelsea and United are the ones under pressure to overtake us while we're waiting for the return of the Torres.

[Dr Cornwallis]

Mancs 0-0 with Villareal and 2-2 with that shite team were games of no significance. They only got complacent against Hull coz they were winning 4-1.

Also United scored first against both us and Chelsea and didn't win either game.  They also lost to Arsenal at the Emirates, and couldn't score a goal against Villareal over both legs in the Champions League, needed a last minute goal from Giggs to save them versus Celtic in the Champions League, and couldn't beat Villa or Tottenham at their gaffs, lost to Zenit in the Super Cup...

[Sat1]

Also United scored first against both us and Chelsea and didn't win either game.  They also lost to Arsenal at the Emirates, and couldn't score a goal against Villareal over both legs in the Champions League, needed a last minute goal from Giggs to save them versus Celtic in the Champions League, and couldn't beat Villa or Tottenham at their gaffs, lost to Zenit in the Super Cup...

That too

[Dr Cornwallis]

Mike Dean was the referee as Manchester United drew a blank with Tottenham Hotspur at the weekend. The Manchester Evening News reports that the Football Association will review his report before deciding which action to take against Cristiano Ronaldo.

The Portuguese powerhouse kicked out at Spurs' Michael Dawson after the pair had tumbled to the ground, with most deeming the act sheer petulance

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1710/manchester-united/2008/12/15/1013022/cristiano-ronaldo-could-face-ban-over-tottenham-kicking

[xerxes]

It's amazing how many teams this season have a better away record than home - us, Chelsea, Villa, Hull, Everton. Seems unusual to me.

[suede lady]

Still no excuses for drawing three games in a row at home.

Now we've got to win at Arsenal away when we could've been 7 points clear if it weren't for those silly dropped points.

or alternatively, we could be 5 points off pace. Which do you prefer?

[PaulF]

I think the point is we can't afford to keep dropping points at home. One of Utd and Chelsea might struggle, but we've got to be winning a higher percentage of our home games if we are to win the league this season.
I doubt there's a single, or even a handful of reasons why we aren't winning, but certainly the defence seems good, we were unlucky with Carra's own goal this weekend. We're missing a world class striker. We've got a top striker who can't find his shooting boots, we haven't got the mentality to really crush a team, we're lacking someone whose little dribbles and flicks can unlock a defence ( I wonder how much Garcia would cost....) , we are still more concerned about not conceding than flooding the opposition box with players when we break.

ps who was it that said we should drop carra and play hyypia and agger vs hull?

[phoenixblood]

We did on Saturday.

That's an exception to the rule rather than part of any pattern.  Spurs had just changed manager, were bouyant, and are a good team anyway rather than the winnable games we have been no narked about.  An own goal and 91st minute winner are not a common occurence.

What about it?  We didn't score.  United and Chelsea both scored in the first 10 mins against Hull and went onto win the game.

We may not have scored, but sure as shit went for it from the off.

[phoenixblood]

Still no excuses for drawing three games in a row at home.

Now we've got to win at Arsenal away when we could've been 7 points clear if it weren't for those silly dropped points.

If you going to say that, then you have to say that Chelsea wouldn't have dropped points either against the lower teams? All if's and buts. No matter what's happened, we were always going to need to win at Arsenal.

[Bob Loblaw]

We're all dropping points we shouldn't be. Lucky for us that its happening, but frustrating too as we really should have been able to put a bit of daylight between ourselves and the rest. Great to be top, but i don't get why some people have such a huge problem with a few fans being frustrated and less than delighted with some of our outings in recent weeks. Fair enough, there are hose who go overboard, ignore them.

And fwiw, i don't think there's been a game that we didn't "go for it", we clearly have, but we simply don't have the players or the system yet to be able to consistently find that breakthrough sometimes. Do i think there are things i reckon Rafa might have done to change things, earlier sub, the personnel he's gone with? Ya, probably.

[Dr Cornwallis]

I think that the way we put the ball about in the Hull game we are on the verge of giving someone a bashing at home.  We've pretty much gone for most of this season without a main striker as well.

[4pool]

Still no excuses for drawing three games in a row at home.

Now we've got to win at Arsenal away when we could've been 7 points clear if it weren't for those silly dropped points.

I know.

Those God Damn players just don't want to win do they?

I mean they go out and nancy about happy with playing for a draw. Rafa keeps talking about winning and the players don't have a fucking clue do they.

Afterall if we're not up by 2-0 at halftime maybe they should dock the players wages. I mean they just don't put forth the effort do they. Fucking miss chances and what not. Pass the ball side to side and from the front to the back. What are they thinking. It's a sunday stroll in the park for them.

Yep, those draws may cost them the League and players like Gerrard and Carragher  and Alonso, and Mascherano are lying through their eye teeth when they say they want to win the League because the team goes out for draws every time at Anfield.

You've sussed it all out lad and brave of you enough to point it out. No excuses whatsoever, eh.

[Baz76]

We need a more aggressive, attacking and adventurous style at home. Although on Saturday the performance was a little cavalier, it was noticeable that we created more chances in the 1st half of that game than most of our other home games combined this season. It was refreshing to see, and encouraged a good vocal reaction from the fans who obviously enjoyed what we seen. Second half and Rafa had his team more typically rigid, Alonso dropped back at least 10 yards, Kuyt didn't get the same support, both Yossi and Riera tucked right in to support the fullbacks (Dossena desperately needed this help though) A fine balance between this style and the more cautious tactic the manager usually deploys (sounds easy!  ) would surely improve the win ratio at home. I am certain if we carried on in the second half as we performed in the 1st then we would have won comfortably. Rather frustratingly, Rafa's cautious nature came to the fore!

[blert596]

good thread and some good points.

I personally think the most important points is that the mancs, chelsea and arsenal boards will all be whinging about "points that we should have won" pretty much the same as on here.

However, we're doing it from the top of the league. I feel much more comfortable knowing we've dropped those points and are sitting at the top of the table, as opposed to thinking we've dropped those points and we could have been top of the league.

Although it looks as though we may win it in spite of ourselves, I'll take that.

[Anthony]

Shanks1965 has done a very comprehensive summary of this (Home and Away) in the Results Comparison Thread...

Liverpool v Man United
Comparison from 11 'common' fixtures so far including the 'head to head' at Anfield.
Liverpool     22pts (next game away to Arsenal - United lost at Arsenal)
Man United  22pts (next game Stoke away - we haven't played Stoke away yet)
Liverpool have 5 wins & 1 draw in hand over United (16pts)
United have 3 wins, 1 draw and 1 defeat in hand over Liverpool (10pts)

Liverpool v Chelsea
Comparison from 6 'common' fixtures so far including the 'head to head' at the Bridge.
Liverpool     16pts (next game Arsenal away - Chelsea haven't played away to Arsenal yet)
Chelsea       11pts (next game Everton away - we won at Everton)
Liverpool have 6 wins, 4 draws & 1 defeat in hand over Chelsea (22 pts)
Chelsea have 8 wins, 2 draws and 1 defeat in hand over Liverpool (26 pts)

Liverpool v Arsenal
Comparison from 9 'common' fixtures so far
Liverpool     25pts (next game head to head - away to Arsenal)
Arsenal        19pts (next game head to head - home to Liverpool)
Liverpool have 3 wins, 4 draws & 1 defeat in hand over Arsenal (13 pts)
Arsenal have 3 wins, 2 draws & 1 defeat in hand over Liverpool (11 pts)  

[4pool]

We need a more aggressive, attacking and adventurous style at home. Although on Saturday the performance was a little cavalier, it was noticeable that we created more chances in the 1st half of that game than most of our other home games combined this season. It was refreshing to see, and encouraged a good vocal reaction from the fans who obviously enjoyed what we seen. Second half and Rafa had his team more typically rigid, Alonso dropped back at least 10 yards, Kuyt didn't get the same support, both Yossi and Riera tucked right in to support the fullbacks (Dossena desperately needed this help though) A fine balance between this style and the more cautious tactic the manager usually deploys (sounds easy!  ) would surely improve the win ratio at home. I am certain if we carried on in the second half as we performed in the 1st then we would have won comfortably. Rather frustratingly, Rafa's cautious nature came to the fore!

I often wonder about posts like this one.

Hull City gave us problems as well. They sat back after conceeding two goals and we threw the lot at them. I suppose in some supporters minds...more of the same please from our side the second half. But does anyone think that their manager made changes at halftime to get his players back on track and stop us. Which included his side trying to take care of the ball better.

He moved his midfielders up, which made Alonso have to move back after the first 5 minutes.

It's not Rafa's conservative side, it's the players needing to react to what the opposition are doing on the pitch.

Phil Brown also learned to keep his defenders compact around the goal. Which is why our best opportunites came from the flanks. Putting Keane on, for example, would have only congested the packed box even further. So Rafa put on two different wide players to continue our best chances at scoring. It almost worked. He also used Lucas because Mascherano was getting dangerously close to a second yellow. And being down to 10 men was not something we wanted either.


The attack, attack, attack philosophy is great as a supporter but it is not easily employed as a player/team. All we needed to do was over commit and leave Geovanni some space and it might have been ugly.

[Jay012345]

This just shows me that we have missed a great opportunity to give ourselves a nice cushion while the others struggle. Im guessing all the top four feel the same!

[Shaded Red]

We need a more aggressive, attacking and adventurous style at home. Although on Saturday the performance was a little cavalier, it was noticeable that we created more chances in the 1st half of that game than most of our other home games combined this season. It was refreshing to see, and encouraged a good vocal reaction from the fans who obviously enjoyed what we seen. Second half and Rafa had his team more typically rigid, Alonso dropped back at least 10 yards, Kuyt didn't get the same support, both Yossi and Riera tucked right in to support the fullbacks (Dossena desperately needed this help though) A fine balance between this style and the more cautious tactic the manager usually deploys (sounds easy!  ) would surely improve the win ratio at home. I am certain if we carried on in the second half as we performed in the 1st then we would have won comfortably. Rather frustratingly, Rafa's cautious nature came to the fore!

Don't think it was caution.

Thought that Phil Brown bottled it after the 1st half when his team should have been buried and parked the bus 2nd half.

That we pushed so hard in the 1st half possibly meant we had much less in the tank for the 2nd half. We all wish we can keep going at full pelt the whole time but we can't. As a result the passes were not coming off or misplaced - and not helped by the fact that there was much less space than in the 1st half. The problem was compounded as players also seem anxious and rushed the passes (esp the final pass) as they wanted the win. Thought it contrasted with the City game where we were calm and composed and kept passing the ball knowing that the chance will come.

Having said that we still created a couple of really good chances 2nd half but did not have a cutting edge. If Sami's header had been an inch to the right and it would have been a different ball game.