Topic: Oliver Kay responds (Merseyside Vitriol part III)

[DangerScouse]

I fully expect this to be locked as the other thread had fully run it's course but the bit in bold i have highlighted is fucking disgraceful. Had anyone heard of this before? How do the fuck did this escape publicity in the press?

Merseyside vitriol: Oliver Kay responds
 It seems like I opened a can of words with a piece yesterday about certain things that were chanted at the Merseyside derby at Goodison Park. Some have accused me of failing to understand the context in which “2-0 to the Murderers” was sung by a number of Liverpool supporters, so here goes...

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do fully understand the context. I’m not exactly a novice when it comes to Merseyside football. But, from where I’m sitting, that context – Everton and Manchester United supporters gleefully chanting “murderers” for years without, it seems, the slightest clue about what happened at Heysel in 1985 – does not excuse what was sung. It doesn’t make the chant funny, clever or brilliant, as some seem to think. The chant sucks, as do the ones that provoked it in the first place.

Some considered it genius because it silenced the Everton taunts (“You should have seen their faces …”) and because it meant that Liverpool fans have “reclaimed” – or at least taken ownership of – the “murderers” tag, much like the gay community has with the word “queer” or the black community has with the word “nigger”. Some have likened it to Tottenham's "yid" chants or Robbie Fowler’s “reclaiming” of the drug-abuse rumours back in 1999 with his infamous cocaine-snorting celebration. I take the point. I just don’t agree with it.

The difference here is that we are talking about a disaster in which 39 people died. And yes I know it was a disaster that could have unfolded at just about any European match involving just about any English club over a period from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s and that it took a particular set of circumstances – not least inadequate security arrangements and a crumbling abomination of a stadium, which Uefa should never forgive themselves for selecting – for it to happen when it did. Believe me, I know all that and I have frequently found myself trying to explain these things to people who think they know better.

I also know that a disturbing large proportion of Everton and United supporters take undue pleasure in singing about Heysel in order to score points. I just did not really think that Liverpool fans, of all fans, would try to score points by turning the tables and singing it back in a way that made a joke (whether you like it or not) of a disaster that claimed the lives of 39 innocent football supporters.

Someone called my reaction “fake moral outrage”. There’s nothing fake about it and I wasn’t outraged, just surprised and, yes, disappointed. I could have chosen to ignore the atmosphere on Saturday and particularly the "2-0 to the Murderers" chant, but I felt and still feel very strongly about it - just as I do the United fans whom I have condemned in the past for chanting despicable things about Hillsborough and for making light of their own disaster in the interests of point-scoring. I have often wondered what Sir Bobby Charlton thinks when he hears United fans at Anfield asking “Where’s your famous Munich song?”

It just comes down to what you find acceptable. I don’t find the "murderers” chant acceptable. I don’t find “Without killing anyone, we’ve won it three times” acceptable (and that, unlikely as it may sound, was actually sung by the United players on the pitch at the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow in May). I don’t find “Where’s your famous Munich song?” acceptable. I don’t find “2-0 to the Murderers” acceptable. I don’t find chants about Michael Shields or Harold Shipman acceptable. I find the chants about Steven Gerrard’s family utterly despicable, as I do the Evertonian “joke” of covering your face with your hand as if to signify someone being crushed at Hillsborough. I actually feel sickened as I write this.

Maybe all of this makes me someone who has spent so long in the press box that he has lost touch with the tribal nature of football’s rivalries. Maybe, but I don’t think so. Maybe it is also possible to get so wound up in that tribal warfare that you lose sight of where the boundaries of taste lie. Some will not care, but, for me, the “2-0 to the Murderers chant” was a long way over that boundary. I know full well what the explanation is. I just don’t think that it constitutes any kind of excuse.

----------

Response by Oliver Kay: http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2008/09/merseyside-vitr.html

The original article:
http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2008/09/the-final-word.html

[felix.]

agree with that and the bold bit is unbelievable.

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

Turn the other cheek eh and pat ourselves on the back?

Worked fucking wonders that.

And the bold bit, everyone will have turned off by then I hope.

[fernando torres]

I fully expect this to be locked as the other thread had fully run it's coarse but the bit in bold i have highlighted is fucking disgraceful. Had anyone heard of this before? How do the fuck did this escape publicity in the press?

Merseyside vitriol: Oliver Kay responds
 It seems like I opened a can of words with a piece yesterday about certain things that were chanted at the Merseyside derby at Goodison Park. Some have accused me of failing to understand the context in which “2-0 to the Murderers” was sung by a number of Liverpool supporters, so here goes...

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do fully understand the context. I’m not exactly a novice when it comes to Merseyside football. But, from where I’m sitting, that context – Everton and Manchester United supporters gleefully chanting “murderers” for years without, it seems, the slightest clue about what happened at Heysel in 1985 – does not excuse what was sung. It doesn’t make the chant funny, clever or brilliant, as some seem to think. The chant sucks, as do the ones that provoked it in the first place.

Some considered it genius because it silenced the Everton taunts (“You should have seen their faces …”) and because it meant that Liverpool fans have “reclaimed” – or at least taken ownership of – the “murderers” tag, much like the gay community has with the word “queer” or the black community has with the word “nigger”. Some have likened it to Tottenham's "yid" chants or Robbie Fowler’s “reclaiming” of the drug-abuse rumours back in 1999 with his infamous cocaine-snorting celebration. I take the point. I just don’t agree with it.

The difference here is that we are talking about a disaster in which 39 people died. And yes I know it was a disaster that could have unfolded at just about any European match involving just about any English club over a period from the mid-1970s to the mid-1980s and that it took a particular set of circumstances – not least inadequate security arrangements and a crumbling abomination of a stadium, which Uefa should never forgive themselves for selecting – for it to happen when it did. Believe me, I know all that and I have frequently found myself trying to explain these things to people who think they know better.

I also know that a disturbing large proportion of Everton and United supporters take undue pleasure in singing about Heysel in order to score points. I just did not really think that Liverpool fans, of all fans, would try to score points by turning the tables and singing it back in a way that made a joke (whether you like it or not) of a disaster that claimed the lives of 39 innocent football supporters.

Someone called my reaction “fake moral outrage”. There’s nothing fake about it and I wasn’t outraged, just surprised and, yes, disappointed. I could have chosen to ignore the atmosphere on Saturday and particularly the "2-0 to the Murderers" chant, but I felt and still feel very strongly about it - just as I do the United fans whom I have condemned in the past for chanting despicable things about Hillsborough and for making light of their own disaster in the interests of point-scoring. I have often wondered what Sir Bobby Charlton thinks when he hears United fans at Anfield asking “Where’s your famous Munich song?”

It just comes down to what you find acceptable. I don’t find the "murderers” chant acceptable. I don’t find “Without killing anyone, we’ve won it three times” acceptable (and that, unlikely as it may sound, was actually sung by the United players on the pitch at the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow in May). I don’t find “Where’s your famous Munich song?” acceptable. I don’t find “2-0 to the Murderers” acceptable. I don’t find chants about Michael Shields or Harold Shipman acceptable. I find the chants about Steven Gerrard’s family utterly despicable, as I do the Evertonian “joke” of covering your face with your hand as if to signify someone being crushed at Hillsborough. I actually feel sickened as I write this.

Maybe all of this makes me someone who has spent so long in the press box that he has lost touch with the tribal nature of football’s rivalries. Maybe, but I don’t think so. Maybe it is also possible to get so wound up in that tribal warfare that you lose sight of where the boundaries of taste lie. Some will not care, but, for me, the “2-0 to the Murderers chant” was a long way over that boundary. I know full well what the explanation is. I just don’t think that it constitutes any kind of excuse.

Quality article

[Life]

I didn't know the bit in bold - and I think he's bang on with everything he's put there.

In fact I think anyone who doesn't has lost site of the plot and is operating purely on emotion, which is understandable, just don't try to dress it up as ok.

[kesey]

we’ve won it three times” acceptable (and that, unlikely as it may sound, was actually sung by the United players on the pitch at the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow in May).[/b] I don’t find “Where’s your famous Munich song?” acceptable. I don’t find “2-0 to the Murderers” acceptable.

Erm.

What the fuck? 

[lc7djb]

I like this Kay fella more by the day. Absolutely spot on.

Shocked about the United players, but not totally surprised.

[Lyndsey_LFC]

I don’t find “Without killing anyone, we’ve won it three times” acceptable (and that, unlikely as it may sound, was actually sung by the United players on the pitch at the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow in May).

Fuckinell did they really do that

[eLVIScOSTELLO]

Well written, and fair enough in my view.

He's a decent journo Holt, but unfortunately our support is full of numskulls who just don't understand the damage they cause, or the impression they give when they act the way they did on Saturday.

[Ozzy_Red]

I agree totally, and are disgusted with that bit in bold, purely disgusted. It's football, and when you start  insulting people that died and their families an people involved in these tragedies, it's crossing the line. The small amount of fans that sing "we've won it 5 times without crashing our plane" are also unacceptable and should be banned from football for life.

[lurganboy]

I don't think any reasonable LFC fan can have a problem with that article. I agree with him anyway.

But the biz about Utd PLAYERS singing it in Moscow - now that IS a new low.

[Life]

Turn the other cheek eh and pat ourselves on the back?

Worked fucking wonders that.

What's "worked"? 
What would be a good result here?

Silence them?  Not going to happen, they're bitter bastards who will sing anything to upset us because our very existence and continued relative success upsets them...and makes what would otherwise be normal people behave in a sick way.
The only thing that works is doing the right thing.  If that's en-masse turning the other cheek, then that's what needs to be done.
Personally, if you're within reaching distance - smacking them in the face is a more acceptable response than trying to do something ironic but in doing so become a sick fucker yourself.

[Red_in_Holland]

I don’t find “Without killing anyone, we’ve won it three times” acceptable (and that, unlikely as it may sound, was actually sung by the United players on the pitch at the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow in May).

Fuckinell did they really do that

I should imagine that Olly is very sure of that, otherwise he would be facing a hefty litigation.

What c*nts, but it doesn't even surprise me, how sad is that ?

[Hank Scorpio]

United players surely could not have sung that on the pitch?

[Taylor_LFC]

"we've won it 5 times without crashing our plane" are also unacceptable and should be banned from football for life.

Overstatement of the century.

[Hij]

I don’t find “Without killing anyone, we’ve won it three times” acceptable (and that, unlikely as it may sound, was actually sung by the United players on the pitch at the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow in May).

Wow.

[lfctitch]

I am surprised that so many people are so ignorant; whether United players sung that or not; what a small minority of supporters sung on Saturday; was unacceptable. I don't care what United players did or didn't do; for me; this isn't what Kay is trying to achieve here; he wants us all to take a good hard long look at ourselves.

After all it is 'only football' It is a ball being kicked around a stadium once or twice a week; trying to get the ball into the net; it does not constitute singing about disasters as if they are a joke.

We have been built on a club full of history; and people let us down on Saturday; lets keep it in house; trying to get our own supporters singing from the same hymn sheet before dealing with what Manchester United did or didn't sing in the final in may.

[davidg]

Uinted players = fucking horrible c*nts

[lfctitch]

I agree totally, and are disgusted with that bit in bold, purely disgusted. It's football, and when you start  insulting people that died and their families an people involved in these tragedies, it's crossing the line. The small amount of fans that sing "we've won it 5 times without crashing our plane" are also unacceptable and should be banned from football for life.

Fully agree with your sentiments.

[kesey]

Leaving this thread as from know like I left the other one.

Iam still recovering over that bit in bold. Doesn't surprise me though the horrible c*nts. Iam getting far to sensitive for all this fuckin cack .

Bye.

[Don Vito Corleone]

Well written, and fair enough in my view.

He's a decent journo Holt, but unfortunately our support is full of numskulls who just don't understand the damage they cause, or the impression they give when they act the way they did on Saturday.

Oli Holt writes for the Mirror

Oli Kay writes for The Times

[Cruiser]

Already have my suspicions but it would be interesting to know which Utd players actually sung that.

[leonmc0708]

Too many santimonious pompous bellends on football forums.

They give us that shit, man woman and child they give us it all game.

We score twwo and throw it back at them.

We are scum ?

Fuck right off.

[Rossie]

I don’t find “Without killing anyone, we’ve won it three times” acceptable (and that, unlikely as it may sound, was actually sung by the United players on the pitch at the Luzhniki Stadium in Moscow in May).

Fuckinell did they really do that

Now that is truely shocking.  How did none of us not hear about this before.

PS. Quality article.

[Andy G]

I have just seen this on RAOTL and made the comment about teh United players singing that too. 

Agree with the article totally.  I do think that there was not enough reference to the songs sang to us though in the original, although it is bad, they are also bad.

[hooded claw]

United players surely could not have sung that on the pitch?

If Kay is coming out in print and saying they did, they did.

[Jorgen]

Overstatement of the century.

How come? Does your assessment mean that you think this is an acceptable song to sing?

[L6 Red]

You're telling me no national ran that story on United players singing that?

Could you imagine if Carragher and Gerrard smashed out a 'who's that dying on the runway?' chant? Fucking hell.

Fair play to Oli Kay for mentioning it. Just amazed no one ran with that story.

[Rossie]

If Kay is coming out in print and saying they did, they did.

Would look this up but just can't bear to see them celebrating - especially not like that!

[Ozzy_Red]

The United players that sung that are a bunch of sad individuals, and I didn't know it was possible, but I hate those manc c*nts (as in players) even more!

[wb888]

I think that the point of the article is being taken away from the part in bold. Though as vile as the United players may be, the focus of the article should be on the fact that we shamed ourselves by singing  '2-0 to the murderers'

[lfctitch]

I have just seen this on RAOTL and made the comment about teh United players singing that too. 

Agree with the article totally.  I do think that there was not enough reference to the songs sang to us though in the original, although it is bad, they are also bad.

No matter what I don't agree with retaliation; in any degree. We are Liverpool supporters; that is not the Liverpool way

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

Too many santimonious pompous bellends on football forums.

They give us that shit, man woman and child they give us it all game.

We score twwo and throw it back at them.

We are scum ?

Fuck right off.

More than just Saturday mate, how long have we put up with this? Didn't hear fuck all from the press when the Mancs are giving us shit at Castle Greyskull all fucking game for nearly 20 years.

[Wewonit5times]

Already have my suspicions but it would be interesting to know which Utd players actually sung that.

Scholes (but he'll probably get let off because he's a quiet lad without an agent or whatever), Rooney, Neville, Ferdinand, Brown the usual suspects I'd of thought.

[lfctitch]

I think that the point of the article is being taken away from the part in bold. Though as vile as the United players may be, the focus of the article should be on the fact that we shamed ourselves by singing  '2-0 to the murderers'

Thank you

[Taylor_LFC]

How come? Does your assessment mean that you think this is an acceptable song to sing?

2-0 to the murderers is a boss chant, and something that people are taking way too seriously.

Ban the people who sing them songs from the match for life? That's a fucking joke. It's what rivalry is all about.

[raptor]

Uinted players = fucking horrible c*nts

Same as their fans and why so many people have so much hatred for them. They get away with it time after time and we get castigated by the likes of Oliver Kay. I don't recall any major publicity about the manc players singing that on the pitch yet we get a two massive articles in the space of two days.

[conman]

I FULLY AGREE with him.
i dont know of a way to silence them, only tradgedies seem to do that, but then get dug up again as a new crop arrive.
but he is 100% correct, and i hate the fact that Liverpools name is tarnished again....

for the people that sung it, "DO U NOT HAVE ANY RESPECT FOR THE DEAD?"

[Ozzy_Red]

Overstatement of the century.

Go tell that to the families of the people that died in that crash, go tell that to Sir Bobby Charlton. You wanker.

[rafathegaffa83]

Excellent article by Oliver Kay. I hope many people get Kay's message, rather than simply focus on his claim about the Manchester United player in Moscow.