Author Topic: I'm just going to throw this out there...  (Read 11710 times)

Offline Col

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I'm just going to throw this out there...
« on: August 31, 2008, 07:12:13 pm »
... and say we haven't addressed our problems over the close season. At all.

We haven't had a genuine winger since McManaman - I know it, you know it, in fact there's probably people in Siberia who know it.

Now then, playing narrow in the midfield is acceptable if you have two quality, attacking full-backs, who are quick enough and good enough to bomb up and down the pitch for 90 minutes, twice a week. We don't have that. We don't have a Clichy - Sagna/Eboue combination. In fact, we don't even have an Evra - Neville, where one will push forward at every given opportunity and provide overlapping quality, whilst the other can put in a very good cross from almost anywhere in the opponents half. What we have instead is Dossena, who is willing to push forward but doesn't appear to cross a ball that well, and Arbeloa. When Arbeloa signed, I was confused - we had Finnan on the right who was doing Neville's job - putting in good crosses on a regular basis. Arbeloa was shifted to left back, and on the back of keeping Messi in a straightjacket at the Camp Nou, excelled there for a while. He looked adventurous, quick, and generally like a ball-playing, attacking full-back.

I don't know what's happened since those first few months, but his confidence seems to be completely drained - the amount of times he has space in front of him, or is in a good crossing position, only for him to turn back inside and play the safe option is hugely frustrating. With Finnan apparently resigned to the bench or available for a transfer, that makes Arbeloa our first-choice right-back. If that had have been the case after his first few months here then I'd have no problem with it whatsoever, but at the moment he's playing well within himself and that doesn't help anybody.

Going back to the midfield, and the lack of width - it's been our biggest problem for as long as I can remember, and we've not even come close to solving it over the past 5 years. We don't have anybody willing to beat a man on the outside and put a cross in. None of Benayoun, Babel, Aurelio, Kuyt, Gerrard or El Zhar are wingers, yet they're the guys filling our wide positions. Pennant is probably the closest we've got, but for whatever reasons he always seems to lack confidence - we know he can beat people and put a half-decent cross in, he just never does.

Today we started with two centre forwards out on the wings - and say what you like about Keane and Kuyt being 'versatile, clever, willing to play anywhere for the team', but they are both strikers. It's as simple as that. Neither of them are rapid, neither are fantastic at beating their man in a 1v1 situation, neither of them are great crossers of the ball. Yet today, they're expected to do the job of a winger. Confused yet? I certainly am. It's starting to feel like the good old days of having Heskey as a defensive centre-forward, playing out on the left hand side of a midfield of Murphy, Gerrard, Hamann, and McAllister - and it's frustrating to see. I don't want to get too deep into the Robbie Keane thing, firstly because it's a whole new can of worms, and secondly because I'm not quite sure why we actually signed him. But that's a completely different discussion.

Apparently the Riera deal is close to being finalised. I don't know much about the lad at all, so all I'm hoping for is that he is prepared to run down the outside of a full-back and put crosses in from the byline on a regular basis. We can but hope.

So moving on from the complete lack of width from both the defence and midfield, we are left with two problems that have been the cornerstone of the Benitez era - a complete lack of atacking fluidity and a dreadful approach to set-pieces.

Under Benitez, we've had two players capable of playing the old no10 role - Luis Garcia and Yossi Benayoun. Luis was fantastically frustrating, capable of both the sublime and the ridiculous, and Yossi isn't far short. The thing is though, they're both victims of a system that just doesn't suit them. Last year we had untold success with Gerrard playing behind Torres - the first time we've really tried the one-up-top with a supporting attacker free to roam. That position is made for players like Benayoun and Luis Garcia, but instead, too often they're asked to try and be wingers. It doesn't work. Yossi can change a game from the centre of the field, if you give him the ball. He's a clever player with an eye for a pass, but his crossing is woeful. I cringe whenever I see him line up out wide - we may as well play with 10 men, as he just isn't a threat. The game just passes him by. He needs to be in that free role that Gerrard utilised so brilliantly last season, floating around and going wherever he likes. The problem with that is, now we've switched back to a 4-4-2, there is no free role.

With no free role, and a flat midfield four, comes defensive solidity. With defensive solidity rarely comes free-flowing attacking play. Our squad as a whole isn't quick enough to play a counter-attacking game, so we need to attack as a unit. When we play 4-4-2, the two central midfielders are defensive, even when Gerrard plays there. He spends more time in the centre circle than around the opposition box, which is no use to anyone as he's one of the best attacking midfielders in the world. So we have a four-man midfield, two of whom are playing as anchors, and the other two - who are now relied upon to provied creativity from the wings - who are either centre forwards, central midfielders, or full-backs being asked to play out wide. It's no wonder the team is so static. Today we started with two forwards out wide, who both naturally do their best work in and around the edge of the penalty area, and finished the game with a full-back and a central attacker out there. So, for the whole game today, we didn't have a single player at any given time who is naturally used to playing out wide - so more often than not, the team is static and moves break down.

I don't see why we've gone from the Gerrard-Torres through-the-middle combination that worked so well last year, back to a rigid 4-4-2, when we clearly don't have enough quality going forwards for it to work (or rather, I do see why we've changed, it's the Robbie Keane thing, but like I said that's a whole new discussion). The team is still too static, nobody moves to show for the ball, and there just aren't enough options and runners when Gerrard and Alonso pick up the ball in the middle of the park.

Is it starting to remind you of the Houllier era at all yet? Now don't get me wrong - I completely admire Rafa Benitez, and wouldn't want anybody else at all running the club, but I'd like to see more attacking gusto from him. Bringing on a full-back when we're after a goal isn't going to work. Playing said full-back on the wing certainly isn't. We've seen it over the past few years with Riise, I hope we don't start to see it as often with Aurelio too.

Talking of Fabio Aurelio, when he signed he was rumoured to have an immense left peg and a venomous free kick. What a crock of rubbish. Nobody at Liverpool Football Club has been able to strike a decent dead ball since the days of Berger and Redknapp. Hamann was a danger to whoever was in the wall, Riise was a danger to whoever was in row 32, and Gerrard's going to be in danger himself if he keeps taking free-kicks that haven't been teed up for him first. He's great at striking a moving ball, but striking direct free-kicks and corners? Give it up, you can't do it. Neither can Alonso, neither, apparently, can Aurelio. But that's OK, at least in terms of the corners - because we only have one player capable of attacking the ball in the air anyway. Step forward Mr Sami Hyypia. Take a bow. You can attack headers well. Messrs Carragher, Skrtel, Agger, Gerrard, Plessis, and also previously Crouch... go and watch videos of Sami. See how he starts at the edge of the box, then runs towards the goal? See how he jumps? See how he heads the top of the ball so it doesn't go flying over the crossbar? Good. Now, you go and try it. Please. Pretty please.

I'm not sure if the set-piece thing is down to the players or the coaching staff - players should surely be tought where to stand for a corner, who runs where, and where the delivery should go. It really isn't hard. That's why it's so frustrating to see a group of three or four players, all 6' tall, standing under the ball when it's crossed in from a set piece, watching it get cleared by a defender who's attacked it. It really is schoolboy stuff, and something which should've been addressed many, many years ago, but for some reason has been ignored.

The last sentence above, is the important one. We all know what our problems have been recently - no movement, no width, no wingers, no attacking threat from set-pieces... and if we know what the problems are, then the coaching staff do, too. They know much more than us, yet for me, they aren't doing enough to try and solve them.

So far this close-season, we've swapped our left-back for another one, brought in a reserve right back, and spent £20m on a centre-forward. We've spent the whole summer courting a central midfielder despite being blessed with a huge array of talent there, brought in a new backup keeper, and completely ignored the wings.

Did we bring in someone who will get round the outside of their full-back and put crosses in?

No.

Did we bring in anyone who can move between the lines of midfield and attack, make creative runs, and generally break other teams down?

No.

Did we address the dead-ball situation?

No.


Therefore, ladies and gentleman, we still have the same problems as the last few years - problems that buying a £20m centre forward will not fix. As depressing as it is, we're not going to win the league, and we all know why.
I don't have to sell my soul... he's already in me.

Offline motisingh

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2008, 07:20:46 pm »
Prepare for the following:

1) We are joint top
2) It's good to win badly (absolute c*nts argument)
3) We shouldn't peak too early (again wtf? I mean thats so stupid it's not even worth considering)



All I'm going to add is that we left last season with:

Reina
Arbeloa Carra Skrtel Aurelio
Masch Alonso
Kuyt Gerrard Babel
Torres

It was doing really well and we finished the season well again. To improve on that I wanted someone to replace Arbeloa, someone to replace Aurelio and someone to replace Babel.......you keep the same formation, the same spine and you have: Arbeloa, Aurelio, Kuyt on the bench along with Agger, Lucas, Benayoun

Dossena could be fine, Arbeloa imo is too average and Quaresma would've given us that added creativity but no he is too expressive.

I love Rafa and I admire Robbie Keane but for our formation, it makes no sense at all

Offline Phil M

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2008, 07:22:58 pm »
What we have instead is Dossena, who is willing to push forward but doesn't appear to cross a ball that well, and Arbeloa.


Well written post but completely disagree with the above,
I think we have seen on more than one occasion this season that Dossena can
indeed put in a cross of real quality, there was one he ballooned today but that happens from time to time.
Not sure how much you saw of him for Udinese in Serie A but he always offered a threat
as an attack minded fullback and was very highly regarded as a result.
Fabio Aurelio has also got a great delivery on his left peg.
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2008, 07:24:18 pm »
i've got a horrid feeling that the riera deal won't go through

Offline hooded claw

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2008, 07:24:40 pm »
... and say we haven't addressed our problems over the close season. At all.

We haven't had a genuine winger since McManaman - I know it, you know it, in fact there's probably people in Siberia who know it.

Now then, playing narrow in the midfield is acceptable if you have two quality, attacking full-backs, who are quick enough and good enough to bomb up and down the pitch for 90 minutes, twice a week. We don't have that. We don't have a Clichy - Sagna/Eboue combination. In fact, we don't even have an Evra - Neville, where one will push forward at every given opportunity and provide overlapping quality, whilst the other can put in a very good cross from almost anywhere in the opponents half. What we have instead is Dossena, who is willing to push forward but doesn't appear to cross a ball that well, and Arbeloa. When Arbeloa signed, I was confused - we had Finnan on the right who was doing Neville's job - putting in good crosses on a regular basis. Arbeloa was shifted to left back, and on the back of keeping Messi in a straightjacket at the Camp Nou, excelled there for a while. He looked adventurous, quick, and generally like a ball-playing, attacking full-back.

I don't know what's happened since those first few months, but his confidence seems to be completely drained - the amount of times he has space in front of him, or is in a good crossing position, only for him to turn back inside and play the safe option is hugely frustrating. With Finnan apparently resigned to the bench or available for a transfer, that makes Arbeloa our first-choice right-back. If that had have been the case after his first few months here then I'd have no problem with it whatsoever, but at the moment he's playing well within himself and that doesn't help anybody.

Going back to the midfield, and the lack of width - it's been our biggest problem for as long as I can remember, and we've not even come close to solving it over the past 5 years. We don't have anybody willing to beat a man on the outside and put a cross in. None of Benayoun, Babel, Aurelio, Kuyt, Gerrard or El Zhar are wingers, yet they're the guys filling our wide positions. Pennant is probably the closest we've got, but for whatever reasons he always seems to lack confidence - we know he can beat people and put a half-decent cross in, he just never does.

Today we started with two centre forwards out on the wings - and say what you like about Keane and Kuyt being 'versatile, clever, willing to play anywhere for the team', but they are both strikers. It's as simple as that. Neither of them are rapid, neither are fantastic at beating their man in a 1v1 situation, neither of them are great crossers of the ball. Yet today, they're expected to do the job of a winger. Confused yet? I certainly am. It's starting to feel like the good old days of having Heskey as a defensive centre-forward, playing out on the left hand side of a midfield of Murphy, Gerrard, Hamann, and McAllister - and it's frustrating to see. I don't want to get too deep into the Robbie Keane thing, firstly because it's a whole new can of worms, and secondly because I'm not quite sure why we actually signed him. But that's a completely different discussion.

Apparently the Riera deal is close to being finalised. I don't know much about the lad at all, so all I'm hoping for is that he is prepared to run down the outside of a full-back and put crosses in from the byline on a regular basis. We can but hope.

So moving on from the complete lack of width from both the defence and midfield, we are left with two problems that have been the cornerstone of the Benitez era - a complete lack of atacking fluidity and a dreadful approach to set-pieces.

Under Benitez, we've had two players capable of playing the old no10 role - Luis Garcia and Yossi Benayoun. Luis was fantastically frustrating, capable of both the sublime and the ridiculous, and Yossi isn't far short. The thing is though, they're both victims of a system that just doesn't suit them. Last year we had untold success with Gerrard playing behind Torres - the first time we've really tried the one-up-top with a supporting attacker free to roam. That position is made for players like Benayoun and Luis Garcia, but instead, too often they're asked to try and be wingers. It doesn't work. Yossi can change a game from the centre of the field, if you give him the ball. He's a clever player with an eye for a pass, but his crossing is woeful. I cringe whenever I see him line up out wide - we may as well play with 10 men, as he just isn't a threat. The game just passes him by. He needs to be in that free role that Gerrard utilised so brilliantly last season, floating around and going wherever he likes. The problem with that is, now we've switched back to a 4-4-2, there is no free role.

With no free role, and a flat midfield four, comes defensive solidity. With defensive solidity rarely comes free-flowing attacking play. Our squad as a whole isn't quick enough to play a counter-attacking game, so we need to attack as a unit. When we play 4-4-2, the two central midfielders are defensive, even when Gerrard plays there. He spends more time in the centre circle than around the opposition box, which is no use to anyone as he's one of the best attacking midfielders in the world. So we have a four-man midfield, two of whom are playing as anchors, and the other two - who are now relied upon to provied creativity from the wings - who are either centre forwards, central midfielders, or full-backs being asked to play out wide. It's no wonder the team is so static. Today we started with two forwards out wide, who both naturally do their best work in and around the edge of the penalty area, and finished the game with a full-back and a central attacker out there. So, for the whole game today, we didn't have a single player at any given time who is naturally used to playing out wide - so more often than not, the team is static and moves break down.

I don't see why we've gone from the Gerrard-Torres through-the-middle combination that worked so well last year, back to a rigid 4-4-2, when we clearly don't have enough quality going forwards for it to work (or rather, I do see why we've changed, it's the Robbie Keane thing, but like I said that's a whole new discussion). The team is still too static, nobody moves to show for the ball, and there just aren't enough options and runners when Gerrard and Alonso pick up the ball in the middle of the park.

Is it starting to remind you of the Houllier era at all yet? Now don't get me wrong - I completely admire Rafa Benitez, and wouldn't want anybody else at all running the club, but I'd like to see more attacking gusto from him. Bringing on a full-back when we're after a goal isn't going to work. Playing said full-back on the wing certainly isn't. We've seen it over the past few years with Riise, I hope we don't start to see it as often with Aurelio too.

Talking of Fabio Aurelio, when he signed he was rumoured to have an immense left peg and a venomous free kick. What a crock of rubbish. Nobody at Liverpool Football Club has been able to strike a decent dead ball since the days of Berger and Redknapp. Hamann was a danger to whoever was in the wall, Riise was a danger to whoever was in row 32, and Gerrard's going to be in danger himself if he keeps taking free-kicks that haven't been teed up for him first. He's great at striking a moving ball, but striking direct free-kicks and corners? Give it up, you can't do it. Neither can Alonso, neither, apparently, can Aurelio. But that's OK, at least in terms of the corners - because we only have one player capable of attacking the ball in the air anyway. Step forward Mr Sami Hyypia. Take a bow. You can attack headers well. Messrs Carragher, Skrtel, Agger, Gerrard, Plessis, and also previously Crouch... go and watch videos of Sami. See how he starts at the edge of the box, then runs towards the goal? See how he jumps? See how he heads the top of the ball so it doesn't go flying over the crossbar? Good. Now, you go and try it. Please. Pretty please.

I'm not sure if the set-piece thing is down to the players or the coaching staff - players should surely be tought where to stand for a corner, who runs where, and where the delivery should go. It really isn't hard. That's why it's so frustrating to see a group of three or four players, all 6' tall, standing under the ball when it's crossed in from a set piece, watching it get cleared by a defender who's attacked it. It really is schoolboy stuff, and something which should've been addressed many, many years ago, but for some reason has been ignored.

The last sentence above, is the important one. We all know what our problems have been recently - no movement, no width, no wingers, no attacking threat from set-pieces... and if we know what the problems are, then the coaching staff do, too. They know much more than us, yet for me, they aren't doing enough to try and solve them.

So far this close-season, we've swapped our left-back for another one, brought in a reserve right back, and spent £20m on a centre-forward. We've spent the whole summer courting a central midfielder despite being blessed with a huge array of talent there, brought in a new backup keeper, and completely ignored the wings.

Did we bring in someone who will get round the outside of their full-back and put crosses in?

No.

Did we bring in anyone who can move between the lines of midfield and attack, make creative runs, and generally break other teams down?

No.

Did we address the dead-ball situation?

No.


Therefore, ladies and gentleman, we still have the same problems as the last few years - problems that buying a £20m centre forward will not fix. As depressing as it is, we're not going to win the league, and we all know why.

Absolutely superb post, not kneejerk but well-reasoned and analytical.
We have all been bemoaning the lack of width for ever now, yet it doesn't seem to get resolved.
Compliments, Col.

Offline makaveli20

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2008, 07:25:03 pm »
i've got a horrid feeling that the riera deal won't go through
WHY?

Offline Bob Loblaw

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2008, 07:25:59 pm »
I think its more Rafa didn't try and address them, but decided to go a different way. Maybe? I do think the Doss is a considerable upgrade on Riise though. But yeah, could be a long season of transition. Or we're all being twats and should just wait and see?

Offline Del_c

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2008, 07:26:12 pm »
Listen lads we got a point out of it with our top 2 players missing from injury.

Look where we are currently...

Joint top with Chelsae 7 points from 9, and still to hit top gear. Conceeded one goal in 3 PL matches.

We made the Champions League group stages, again by not getting out second gear ( Just watch Leige rip fuck out of the blue shit in the UEFA)

We didnt play well but the job got done.

Today was the type of game I would have watched  previously and loose, as we didnt have Gerrard, and then we lost Torres.

The biggest problem we have at Liverpool is that we have too many central midfield players, which leaves Rafa trying some of them in different options on the flanks, which isnt working. We all want the Reds to do well, especilaly with all the pressure thats building around Rafa and the team regarding winning the League, but to me we went wrong in too many areas today....

1)Why didnt Babbel come on for Torres and go directly upfront? He said he wants to play up top, hes proved he can do the business there for Holland under 21s. Villa centre halves were Davis (inexperienced) and Laursen (slow no pace) I hope Torres in jury isnt bad ( A late bid for Michael Owen anyone?)
2) Why play Robbie Keane left midfield? why? We need balance and width so play Babbel ( who doesnt like playing there) or Aurellio (natural left footed and would cover to allow Dossena to get forward)
3) STOP PLAYING CENTRAL PLAYERS In WIDE AREAS IT DOESNT WORK. I hope to god Reira settles quickly and gives us a bit of consistency we are lacking there.
4)What has happened to Steve  Finnan? The Barry deal is dead, hes not injured so fucking play him! He was always renowned to get forward and get in decent crosses we are crying out for that type of service at the moment.
5) Why wait till the last fucking minute to get rid of the dead wood at the club? Voronin, Pennant, Intande, another potential £6 - £7 million quid there could have been freed up for Rafa to spend, but they are still sitting tight, picking up their cash for doing fuck all - sickening.
6) Our corners are shit , why the fuck cant we take a corner kick properly?

I would be interested in my fellow Red's views, but we need to stay focussed and suppoert our manager and players

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Offline Sid7

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2008, 07:27:16 pm »
Just think, why are United and Chelsea winning titles, and we're not?

and yes, this will get deleted but maybe not because ur postcount

This isn't about what Chelsea and Utd are doing right, it's about what WE need to do right. Lets stick to the topic here. We can't compete with them financially so using their template for success does not apply to us. But what Col has mentioned is true. Anybody who understand how the game is being played will realize why we aren't playing the brand of football that fans expect from Liverpool. To simply gloss over our displays by pointing to a leader board that's 3 matches old is nothing short of stupid.

When do people legitimately have a right to mention we aren't playing well ? When we get beaten at home by the Mancs ? Do we address tactics and a lack of fluidity when we lose to a rival, or is it possible that despite picking up points some of us can see that there are serious problems with the team (not helped by a pair of twit owners). Knee jerk reaction is a favorite label to throw around, but I'm willing to bet that if the wheels come off the wagon (and I seriously hope they don't), then all these people who claim that we're doing well will suddenly start baying for blood.

If anything, a forum such as this shouldn't restrict intelligent discussion on how the team is performing. Banning 1 liners is fine, it shows no thought and in all probability is something that a person with little or no grasp on the subject of football would write to provoke a reaction. I'm all for banning reactionary statement, but for gods sake don't censure the frustration felt by true fans.

As Col has demonstrated, you can write a serious critique on the deficiencies of Liverpool football club and do so respectfully and without offending those fans that can't bear to stand one single word of criticism leveled at their heroes.

A strong football team needs realistic fans and passionate die hard fans, in equal numbers. It's important for both sets of supports to realize this.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 07:31:33 pm by Sid7 »
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Offline whtwht

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2008, 07:35:10 pm »
I totally agree with Col-

We need to ask questions of the Manager and coaches -why we go out with such a negative Mentality - We know through experience that doesnt win  Prem games

I think we have good players but its bothering me alot now
He'll win the league in the next 3 years. Quote me on that.
Quote me on this, but come next season he'll be great for us. Just needs to remove the walking headless chicken next to him

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2008, 07:35:29 pm »
WHY?

i just do - the deal was supposedly good as done on friday, yet it hasnt been confirmed. also, the way how the owners have acted recently hardly fill me with confidence

Offline BazC

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2008, 07:37:52 pm »
Brilliant post that and I agree with most of it (if not all of it). I know it's obviously conjecture, but I still live in hope that we'll do better than last season. Surprised that we spent so much on Keane, but I think we need to play him in his best position and move Gerrard out wide. We haven't seen that yet as Gerrard's been injured and had to fill in for Masch/Lucas as well.

Give it until after the Christmas/New Year's fixtures- I don't think it'll be the same as how we were last season, but if it is, then maybe Rafa made a £20m mistake- not necessarily because of Keane, but the opportunity cost of the deal- that £20m could have been spent on another good player who actually fits the system.
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Offline VintageRed74

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2008, 07:39:17 pm »
Very depressing all in all and i agree totally with the Keane comment, i too am perplexed as to why Rafa felt the need to add him to the squad, especially at a cost of 20 million.

Towards the end of last season and for the first time in a long time under Benitez he was generally playing players in their best positions and the Torres and Gerrard interplay was working a treat.

So i guess like many other reds i had a good feeling going into the summer transfer window that Benitez would go after players that would enhance a formation that was clearly working, instead he spends 20 million on a striker whose price tag you would assume guarantees he is going to get a lot of game along side Torres, hence we change again to a 4 4 2 formation.

Now like Col so elegantly illustrated we are again left with two players in Kuyt and Benayoun operating on the left and right side that are a waste of space in those positions and furthermore add nothing to us as an attacking force, in fact they are taken out the game effectively.

Listening to the pre and post game analysis Rafa's transfer policy was again being questioned, now i know the tendency around these parts is to respond to such critiques with terms such as 'fuck off cock monkey' or 'beauts' etc but i feel that some of the points being raised about Rafa's transfers/policy are valid.

We still dont have a quality winger (Riera may be on his way i know but i havent got a clue what he is like as a player as i have no interest in La Liga) and the jury is out at the moment on Dossena but you wouldnt exactly describe him as pacy and Arbeloa is almost unrecognisable to the player he was last season.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 07:44:30 pm by VintageRed74 »
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Offline The G in Gerrard

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2008, 07:40:11 pm »
What did you want after the first games this season?

Looking to win all our games - but atm we are  too scared to Lose

and we have won 2 out of 3 prem games and qualified for champs league.... all in all a near perfect start, no?

Offline BootleRed

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2008, 07:40:30 pm »
We haven't had a genuine winger since McManaman (quote]

I feel you are even clutching at straws with that one mate!!

I can count on one hand the number of times he skinned someone and put in a decent cross.
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Offline liverpoolfcmike

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2008, 07:42:44 pm »
Good post, I agree about attacking the opositions full backs, etc. However since when does a team go out into the transfer market specifically to buy a dead-ball specialist? I don't know if i can recall a team that's done that before... Do you remember the goal Gerrard scored in the same fixture last year..? We're OK at set pieces, but the problem, as you highlighted is the lack of players that actually attack the delivered ball.

Aside from that, agree with everything you've stated. Top post.

Offline abhred

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2008, 07:42:54 pm »
Obviously, I agree with everything. We've had hundreds of post like this during the summer. All this is painfully obvious to everyone. Except Rafa.
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Offline garumn

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2008, 07:46:39 pm »
A very well written article indead. Although I do support Rafa fully I do agree that we haven't made enough (if any) progress in the wide areas in the last transfer windows, and I am very dissapointed with that.
Hopefully the Riera deal will go through and he will be a success, but I suspect he's just going to be another stop-gap winger, doing the job okey'ish but not quiet well enough.

Offline Phil M

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2008, 07:47:22 pm »
Quote
1)Why didn't Babbel come on for Torres and go directly upfront?

Babbel retired years ago, would have been crazy to ask Markus come back and play up front for us today.

Quote
2) Why play Robbie Keane left midfield? why? We need balance and width so play Babbel ( who doesn't like playing there) or Aurelio (natural left footed and would cover to allow Dossena to get forward)

Keane drifted inside and started behind Torres, second half he was playing more direct but I would have
preferred to see him play where N'gog was deployed.

Quote
3) STOP PLAYING CENTRAL PLAYERS In WIDE AREAS IT DOESNT WORK. I hope to god Riera settles quickly and gives us a bit of consistency we are lacking there.

Apart from Babel on the left what or who were the alternatives?

Quote
4)What has happened to Steve  Finnan? The Barry deal is dead, hes not injured so fucking play him! He was always renowned to get forward and get in decent crosses we are crying out for that type of service at the moment.
He has fallen out of favour and is not getting any younger, he may well be leaving us, although
I hope not as I still think Steve has another good season in him and deserves that much at least.

Quote
5) Why wait till the last fucking minute to get rid of the dead wood at the club? Voronin, Pennant, Intande, another potential £6 - £7 million quid there could have been freed up for Rafa to spend, but they are still sitting tight, picking up their cash for doing fuck all - sickening.

Te transfer window doesn't close until tomorrow, while they are contracted to this club they are Liverpool
players and are members of the squad, show some respect.

Quote
6) Our corners are shit , why the fuck cant we take a corner kick properly?

There was a marked improvement today, Xabi Alonso's corners were nearly all well taken
and into the danger area at pace, the main problem being that they weren't attacked in great fashion/numbers,
which is something we need to address asap.

Quote
but we need to stay focused and support our manager and players

Isn't that a little ironic given some of your remarks above?

We should indeed fully support the team.
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline alonsoisared

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2008, 07:47:30 pm »
Brilliant post

Offline donniebrasco

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2008, 07:47:59 pm »
Top,top post and while i disagree with some of it(Dossena's crossing seems like his best asset) i have to agree with the main gist of it that we have not solved our age-old dilemna of poor wide players.I don't call them wingers but if you look at ALL the sides that have won the premiership they had better players wide than we have done.Overmars,Giggs,Pires,Duff,Ljungberg,Robben even Beckham at his best were all a class above any player we have had playing wide in the last 4 years.It's a perennial struggle and our priority IMO should have been to address that but we haven't done.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2008, 07:48:07 pm »
Terrific post and it puts all the things that many people have been saying at different places into just one very articulate post.  And I agree with almost all of it except the bit about Aurelio not being able to strike a dead ball.  He is in fact pretty good in such situations.  It is just that he hasn't got too many chances to really strike a free kick from his zone.

Another thing is the fact that we really lack ball carriers out wide.  Kuyt and Keane really can't run with the ball over long distances while beating a man or two.  Babel can but he remains an enigma with his immeasurable talent and abject decision making and so that leaves us without a single player who can run with the ball and beat defenders and no Torres doesn't count.  He can't really be expected to beat 3 men, creating himself a chance in the process and score every time.  Someone else has to do it. 
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Offline Betty Blue

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2008, 07:50:35 pm »
Carragher, Skrtel, Agger, Gerrard, Plessis, and also previously Crouch... go and watch videos of Sami. See how he starts at the edge of the box, then runs towards the goal? See how he jumps? See how he heads the top of the ball so it doesn't go flying over the crossbar? Good. Now, you go and try it. Please. Pretty please.

Well structured post Col. Almost all of which I agree with. Being on 300 odd posts myself I just haven't felt confident in saying these things without being ripped apart.

Particularly liked the analysis of the set-pieces situation above. Very good point. I hate to bring up United and Chelsea, but they have players who know how to attack a free kick. Hell, even Arsenal are better at it than us, Gallas anyone.

Please let's not have too many calling this a 'knee-jerk' response, as this is clearly an analytical and honestly written post.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 08:10:06 pm by The NGogonator »
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Offline Jorgen

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2008, 07:52:53 pm »
Very good post Col.

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2008, 07:57:56 pm »
You're lucky you have 16 000 posts to your name. If a newbie posted this they'd get slaughtered.

Agree with you though.

It's a pity you don't understand what RAWK was/is about, but I guess you're relatively new yourself though and not aware how "olde worlde rawk" went down. I don't mean that in a nasty way either mate, just stating how it is!

Anyone who puts serious effort into starting a topic will always be welcomed. The more the merrier, so long as it's topical. That's how it's always been on here and it's mainly the very new posters that seem to miss or ignore that fact.

As for Col,

Your un-authorised dissension from the party line will be dealt with severely. :D
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 08:01:36 pm by Gareth »

Offline irishred1991

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2008, 08:01:02 pm »
very true
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Offline Rizla

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2008, 08:04:32 pm »
cant argue with that

same old same old really

too many wasted windows of transfer opportunity... :(

need to prioritise long standing problems, we just dont do this often enough

Offline Mark Walters

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2008, 08:07:15 pm »
Good post.

It's remarkable how after so many years we're still talking about a lack of movement. It plagued the GH era and when he tried to remedy it by playing Kewell, Vlad and Diouf in front of Stevie, it looked good but the results didn't come and he reverted to the safety 1st approach. But at least he tried.

5 years later and we still have no movement or creative flair. Still have no midfielders trying to get behind the opposition defence. But last reason we had a system that worked with players who became accustomed to their roles. All it needed was a couple more players to supplement the ones already there, particularly an upgrade to Dirk, and we would've been away. Instead we change the system again and the same criticisms that were apparent on these fora at the start of last season have reappeared.

Rafa and the coaching staff need to get our players doing more work on the ball and concentrating on a system that works well with the resources at our disposal. That means 4-2-3-1.
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Offline Sid7

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2008, 08:08:43 pm »

I'm not sure if the set-piece thing is down to the players or the coaching staff - players should surely be tought where to stand for a corner, who runs where, and where the delivery should go. It really isn't hard. That's why it's so frustrating to see a group of three or four players, all 6' tall, standing under the ball when it's crossed in from a set piece, watching it get cleared by a defender who's attacked it. It really is schoolboy stuff, and something which should've been addressed many, many years ago, but for some reason has been ignored.

Your entire article is thought provoking, but your point regarding set pieces is something that needs to be addressed immediately. With the exception of Sami, I don't remember the last time we had a freekick or corner and felt an impending goal threat from any of the players. And this is baffling considering most of our players are tall and strong in the air. Physically, there should be no reason why our defenders shouldn't be attacking the corner and putting the keeper under pressure.

The problem of little-no production from corners boils down to this:

1) The percentage of corners that actually enter the danger area is shockingly bad. I can't count the number of times that various takers (Alonso, Gerrard,etc) couldn't get the ball past the first defender. This simply has to be remedied. Corners should account for at least 10 goals throughout the season and one of our CB's should aim to score in the region of 5 headed goals (others top teams do, Rio, Terry, Vidic).

2) After the corner comes in, I rarely see our lads attack it like other more physical teams do, now part of this is probably because the cross isn't good enough, but where's the hustle and bustle...even if a goal is disallowed because you barged into the keeper at least you've instilled a sense of fear in the opposite number. A tame effort just makes the defender confident that you don't believe you can score.

Chelsea are masters of scoring off the corners and i wish we could adopt the same approach as them. Use some basketball type pitch and rolls and block/confuse defenders from picking up their man. Be physical and attack different area of the goal in order to get that lucky deflection. Then post Gerrard on the edge to slam the ball in if it leaks out...I've found there is simply no threat when Liverpool have a corner, and half the time you expect it will get cleared by the opposing defender and that severely limits what we can do.

And we don't need new players to solve this problem. Extra time spent training, and a clear plan should at least make us more effective in this area  of the game.

Getting someone with a wicked inserving / outserving shot, instead of a flat floating cross would also help. But that might be a skill that's harder to teach.
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Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2008, 08:09:40 pm »
I'm not as concerned about the width issue if the fullbacks he's bought in turn out to be very good going forward.  Seeing as we need time for them to settle and see them play it's very difficult to say one way or the other.

Agree about the dead-ball stuff.  But we've always been fucking shit at them.....god knows why people like Gerrard and Alonso are incapable of missing the first defender, but they always seem to defy all logic and just keep on pounding it into them.  Also would be handy if one or two took a bit of a risk and tried arriving late or making a run occasionally when we do have a corner.
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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #30 on: August 31, 2008, 08:13:53 pm »
i've got a horrid feeling that the riera deal won't go through

Me too.
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Offline BazC

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #31 on: August 31, 2008, 08:14:24 pm »
I'm not as concerned about the width issue if the fullbacks he's bought in turn out to be very good going forward.  Seeing as we need time for them to settle and see them play it's very difficult to say one way or the other.

Agree about the dead-ball stuff.  But we've always been fucking shit at them.....god knows why people like Gerrard and Alonso are incapable of missing the first defender, but they always seem to defy all logic and just keep on pounding it into them.  Also would be handy if one or two took a bit of a risk and tried arriving late or making a run occasionally when we do have a corner.

Hopefully Dossena and Degen turn out to be what we need. They both need to settle- but I'm worried that Degen is just another one of those that spends his time in recovery than on the pitch... sure he's got a bad record, and he's hardly started off on the right foot on that basis either.

On set pieces: yeah Alonso and Gerrard are poor... but even they get a few decent ones in- and as Col says, the people attacking them are also shite in the air. Today, Xabi hit at least a few decent deliveries into the box from corners, but they weren't attacked as well as you'd like. I remember thinking the same on Wednesday when Gerrard took a couple.... maybe we just don't have the players who are confident/strong enough to go in there and make a challenge for the cross. Which is a factor that should be considered when talking about wingers who are good at crossing the ball. At this moment, I'd rather just have a decent attacking midfielder who can keep the ball moving and in our possession in the attacking 3rd...
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Offline Tigerheart

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2008, 08:14:40 pm »
Good post.

It's remarkable how after so many years we're still talking about a lack of movement. It plagued the GH era and when he tried to remedy it by playing Kewell, Vlad and Diouf in front of Stevie, it looked good but the results didn't come and he reverted to the safety 1st approach. But at least he tried.

5 years later and we still have no movement or creative flair. Still have no midfielders trying to get behind the opposition defence. But last reason we had a system that worked with players who became accustomed to their roles. All it needed was a couple more players to supplement the ones already there, particularly an upgrade to Dirk, and we would've been away. Instead we change the system again and the same criticisms that were apparent on these fora at the start of last season have reappeared.

Rafa and the coaching staff need to get our players doing more work on the ball and concentrating on a system that works well with the resources at our disposal. That means 4-2-3-1.

This is a great point you make. Whats even more ironic is that under Houllier, we got shown how much movement we lacked when we came up against Rafas Valencia in the Champions League and that memorable Anfield friendly. I think the answer is a little more simple. I think theres something not right with the mentality of the team. We started last season playing some brilliant football but since Pako left, we lost something. We got it back towards the end of last season but weve gone back to be a stiff counter-attacking team again.

Offline RedBoywonder

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2008, 08:15:36 pm »
True, very good post.

This is Rafa's squad now & ultimately he has to be answerable for it and its lack of progression, hunger, creativeness, basic passing & movement, winning mentality & flair.

Its his team.
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Online John C

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2008, 08:20:22 pm »
Your un-authorised dissension from the party line will be dealt with severely. :D

 ;D  Treat it as Thought Crime Gareth

Offline Art Vandelay

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2008, 08:22:38 pm »
Perhaps no-one gets on the end of a decent corner at our club because they are so fucking amazed when one has actually managed to get to the middle of the goal that they stand there in utter fucking shock.
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Offline Tim-Cross

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2008, 08:26:09 pm »
Col, you speak the truth.

We desperately need creativity and width. We don't have either at the present time and haven't for years.

Before the start of last season, a mate of mine posted on here that we would not win the league because we lacked creativity and width, that we set our stall out to defend and not lose games, and that we would draw or lose too many games. He was given shit, told he wasn't a "real" supporter and that he was wrong on all counts. His post was deleted....

He was right though....

We don't seem to know what we're doing this season. Are we playing 4-4-2? If so do we have the players to do it? I would say no. Kuyt, Babel and Yossi all cannot play in a 442. Are we going to play 4231 when everyone is fit? So where do Keane and Gerrard play?

I think our biggest problem is that Rafa thinks more about how to stop the other team than how to win the game ourselves.  He picks a hardworking midfield which will break down the attacking threat, but lacks the ability to truely threaten ourselves. Last season we relied on moments of brilliance from Torres and Gerrard, rather than an attack as a team tactic.

Our set pieces are fucking laughable. How many times does the cross fail to beat the first man. It's a VERY big thing of our play over the last 5 years. A mate of mine makes a habit of, whenever we're watching a match - going back to the 2006 World Cup - of saying "you should buy him" whenever a player fails to clear the first man from a set piece. Gerrard and Alonso are shocking at hitting a dead ball.

Last season we failed to break teams down. We will do the same this year unless we drastically change the way we play. I will get stick for saying that I know, but I'm right and I know I'm right.
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Offline Sid7

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2008, 08:28:34 pm »
I'm not as concerned about the width issue if the fullbacks he's bought in turn out to be very good going forward.  Seeing as we need time for them to settle and see them play it's very difficult to say one way or the other.

Tactically, if you chose to use advanced fullbacks then you're relying on your 2CB to be extremely good if, and when those fullbacks get caught upfield. Now I believe we do have two very solid  CB's in Carra and Skertle, but neither of them are particularly quick, so against a team that likes to lure a team in and then counter attack there is a tendency for them to hit us on the break.

Another problem to using wingbacks in advanced roles is that it requires a very talented pair of fullbacks. They have to be intelligent, possess pace lest they be caught upfield, have a good engine and dedication to track back and also be good technically to put in a cross after they have tracked up 40-50 yards. Finding all that isn't easy...I could name a handful of players that do that job effectively and even those players are effective only because they have supporting wingers who they overlap with. (Evra in particular is effective because he has a giggs, or nani to hold the ball up and whome an opposing defender has to respect because they have the ability to beat them).

Without a supporting winger to support a wingback, a team is simply playing a dangerous numbers game, because should a move fail - our defensive midfielder has to rush back and support the CB's. Thankfully we are blessed with a world class defensive midfielder, but as todays game has shown, even he has a tendency to sometimes run too far forward and against an opposition that's good on the counter attack there is a very real chance of getting pegged back when that happens.

Amongst the top teams in the league, only Chelsea seem to play without real wingers and with advanced fullbacks. Bosingwa and Cole naturally love to bomb forward and this means naturally centeral midfielders like cole, deco, lampard and ballack can make runs into the box. This works for chelsea because with all 4 of their midfielders they possess a goal scoring threat. Not to mention, both cole and bosingwa are pacy, like to take on the man and put in decent crosses.

I'm not sure if Arbeloa is naturally an attacking fullback, and while Dossena looks like he could be one, he isn't supported by a trio in midfield that makes supporting runs into the box (how many times did lucas go into the box today? how many times does Xabi make those third man runs into the box? With only gerrard making that run the fullback isn't as effective).

I hope we solve the width problem, but i'm not sure we can do it without supporting wingers. Currently we play forwards in that position and they don't support our fullback. Consequently, fullbacks just remain back and aren't encouraged to make those bombing (overlapping) runs.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2008, 08:33:09 pm by Sid7 »
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Offline GBF

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2008, 08:28:49 pm »
throw it back to you....Rafa's formations dont involve wingers.  Hency why you see CM on the wings sometime or Babel coming inside.  No point going on about it, we very rarely use wings from midfield
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Offline GinuWhine

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Re: I'm just going to throw this out there...
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2008, 08:30:11 pm »
Top,top post and while i disagree with some of it(Dossena's crossing seems like his best asset) i have to agree with the main gist of it that we have not solved our age-old dilemna of poor wide players.I don't call them wingers but if you look at ALL the sides that have won the Premier League they had better players wide than we have done.Overmars,Giggs,Pires,Duff,Ljungberg,Robben even Beckham at his best were all a class above any player we have had playing wide in the last 4 years.It's a perennial struggle and our priority IMO should have been to address that but we haven't done.


It's not the fact that all the sides that have won the Premier League have had better players out wide than we have done. The whole problem that Col has touched on is that because we've bought Keane, we now do have to play 4-4-2 and we are playing strikers and central attackers as wingers because we don't have any. But you don't need wingers to be successful in the Premier League because our 4-2-3-1 was working last season. You DO need wingers if you play 4-4-2. That's the difference.

Buying Keane, while he's a great player, has been a mistake tactically because now if we do want to execute a 4-2-3-1, Keane has to play behind Torres and we've broken up the Gerrard - Torres partnership.

So many here harp on about Quaresma. While he is a winger, we should have kept to 4-2-3-1 and bought some left and right forwards. Babel can play the left of the 3, Kuyt did well for Holland in this role on the right, but you need guys who fill that "forward" role, can beat a man and provide a goal threat. I don't think Quaresma scores enough for this. Players like Podolski (when playing for Germany) who plays in that exact role on the left for Germany, Joe Cole for Chelsea, etc. True "forwards". Buying Keane changes that. I don't know what Rafa was thinking.