Topic: The (Level 3) Sanctuary

[Des Equilibrante]

Maybe we're getting someone from Fulham back as part of it?

[hassinator]

Maybe we're getting someone from Fulham back as part of it?

danny murphy?   the thought had crossed my mind but nothing linked so far.  who have they got at right back?  any good?

[redy]

The mancs played  three holding midfielders and defended the whole second half with at least 9 men behind the ball.
Don´t wanna imagine what happend if Rafa did this.

Fergies down to earth tactics surely still have a point. Men at the posts? Yes, please. Playing against Arsenal away on counter attack being Manchester United and not giving a shit that a team like that SHOULD play an open game... At least they should be banned from any Level 3 approach discussion. Roy?

I think thats wrong because only Scholes is holding his position. Let me explain. I believe the reason they are playing better all of a sudden now in their 4-3-3 is that Fletcher and Carrick are supporting Rooney in the box. Thats how they created the chances and goals against City. Today they may have sat back a bit more but they still supported Rooney better than they have been doing since a while.

[josemisuncle]

Aye but there was a big stink about it at least from LDV who thought he was promised reserve football this season.
Can't say anything for Buchmann but to be honest he just looks like a lesser version of Insua to me.

I never watched the u17s world cup though where he was meant to be on fire.

Shame to let somebody promising go but if they see better players knocking about then I suppose it's ok.

Well I never really bought into all that gossip.  What is clear is that a lot of those players were identified and brought in by Elias and no doubt they and their parents will now have some kind of relationship with him.  I don't doubt he will be trying to leverage that.  Why wouldn't he?

What gets me is the 100K?  If smalling is worth 6-8-10-12M how can we be getting only 100K?  What kind of contract were they signed to?  Not one that maximizes the benefit to us obviously.

[Des Equilibrante]

danny murphy?   the thought had crossed my mind but nothing linked so far.  who have they got at right back?  any good?

The only player I would take is Brede Haangeland...

[Hank Scorpio]

That news about Buchtmann has completely deflated me.

I mean the off field situation with the owners and recently the level of football and doubts about the managers future have got me down but I've kinda like been clinging onto the fact we have some good youth players coming through.  The words 'Golden Generation' have been pinging in my head recently.

And now to think that we have let go of one the best youth players we have and for next to nothing.  Fuck the money, that's not what it is about anyway.

Our club is a fuckin mess to be honest.

[No666]

I picked him in my three I tipped to make it in that poll on the main board. 100,000: Wtf? You're right, roy, - this is depressing.

[yorkykopite]

Ah well. It'll pay Mascherano's wages for another week.

[nocturnalvin]

Who watches him regularly? Everyone seems angry. Surely there is a sign on fee or something.

[No666]

Report in the echo confirming - fee included.

[steveeastend]

I think thats wrong because only Scholes is holding his position. Let me explain. I believe the reason they are playing better all of a sudden now in their 4-3-3 is that Fletcher and Carrick are supporting Rooney in the box. Thats how they created the chances and goals against City. Today they may have sat back a bit more but they still supported Rooney better than they have been doing since a while.

I think you are right. Lets just hope the two of them burn out til march.. Manchester winning another PL title this year would be too much to bear..

[Hank Scorpio]

Their 2nd goal was class. Arsenal cant defend for shit but the burst of pace and determination in that quick move was kinda special.

That goal was fuckin brilliant to be honest.

They did it last year in the CL semi and they did it to them again, this time with inferior players.

The pace, movement and technique involved in that goal was simply phenomenal.  Every touch was positive, that's what allowed them to rip Arsenal open like that.  Even Rooney's shielding of the ball was positive because he coaxed the Arsenal defence out a little and then hit them with Nani's forward run.

I hate to say it but I do admire the way these inbreds approach matches.  If you take a snapshot of when one of their midfielders is in possession, you will often see they have gone 4 v 4 against the opp's defence.  That's one of their midfielders pushed right up in an attacking position and the wingers on the heels of the full backs.  Yesterday it was Darren Fletcher pushed right up, on the centrebacks toes, early in the 1st half.  The opp's defence is put under so much pressure and the midfielders normally have to drop back.  United end up suffocating the opp.

A good system is one where you can interchange players, with varying levels of talent, and have the same affect.  United have a good system.

[royhendo]

Who watches him regularly? Everyone seems angry. Surely there is a sign on fee or something.

Evidently he's never quite set the world alight with us the way he did in the summer for his country, but he looked very exciting in that tournament. I watched three of their games and he was the standout.

You'll always get pointed comments in response along the lines of "What the fuck do you know? You don't see them week in and week out." And that's fair comment - but it worries me that Dalla Valle wanted away, that this lad's gone, and that Pepper might be off. I used to argue with Strawberry Fields on the subject of players who I didn't think merited hysteria when they left (Hammill and Anderson) and no doubt the same arguments apply to these situations. It just worries you. This has to be the central pillar, doesn't it? And we need proof that we're capitalising on it at some stage. Why let the decent prospects slip away like that?

We don't have definitive proof and it could be down to their mentality and expectations getting ahead of themselves. But use the bloody loan system, no? It would be nice to see stories of buyback clauses in these situations.

[yorkykopite]

That goal was fuckin brilliant to be honest.

They did it last year in the CL semi and they did it to them again, this time with inferior players.

The pace, movement and technique involved in that goal was simply phenomenal.  Every touch was positive, that's what allowed them to rip Arsenal open like that.  Even Rooney's shielding of the ball was positive because he coaxed the Arsenal defence out a little and then hit them with Nani's forward run.

It's the psychology too. The way the entire team seemed to think "goal chance!" even though the ball was still in their own penalty area.

[steveeastend]

A good system is one where you can interchange players, with varying levels of talent, and have the same affect.  United have a good system.

The answer is right in your sentence. Quality players with different strength in reasonable number to choose from. (like United). Or ouststanding quality all over the pitch and a not so big squad. (like Chelsea or Barca). The good system needs the players.

It´s all about being able to pay the necessary wages for a big squad.

Instead of this stupid net spend discussion it would make sense to compare wages of each and every player of United and Liverpool. This would for sure enlighten us.

[MolbysBigBelly]

I thought that over the last year or more,  that Buchtmann would be one of those guaranteed to make it into the first team.  Definitely disappointing this has happened.

Later in the TLW thread, they are saying that he's gone because he wanted to carry on working with Malcolm Elias and it appears as though we had very little choice.

[nocturnalvin]

Evidently he's never quite set the world alight with us the way he did in the summer for his country, but he looked very exciting in that tournament. I watched three of their games and he was the standout.

You'll always get pointed comments in response along the lines of "What the fuck do you know? You don't see them week in and week out." And that's fair comment - but it worries me that Dalla Valle wanted away, that this lad's gone, and that Pepper might be off. I used to argue with Strawberry Fields on the subject of players who I didn't think merited hysteria when they left (Hammill and Anderson) and no doubt the same arguments apply to these situations. It just worries you. This has to be the central pillar, doesn't it? And we need proof that we're capitalising on it at some stage. Why let the decent prospects slip away like that?

We don't have definitive proof and it could be down to their mentality and expectations getting ahead of themselves. But use the bloody loan system, no? It would be nice to see stories of buyback clauses in these situations.

Is it a case of the transfer quantum rather than the transfer itself thats doing people's heads in?

Some seem truly gutted but most are just moaning about the fee.

[Hank Scorpio]

That's not what I meant Steve.  In fact it's kind of the opposite of what I meant.

A good system will make up for the deficiencies of the players.

United lost two of the very best players in the world during the summer.  They replaced them with inferior players.  Their squad is definitely weaker than it was last year and they have had a succession of injuries.  Yet they stick to their guns.  They took the game to Arsenal yesterday and you could see that Arsenal, as a team, were overwhelmed.

That was Darren Fletcher pushing right up onto Vermaelen.  Not Carlos Tevez.

And that was Nani destroying Clichy not Ronaldo.

Inferior players, same result.

[JP-65]

Regarding Buchtmann, I don't understand these comments about "working" with Elias.  As far as I understand it, he was/is a scout, not a coach.  This line of reasoning doesn't seem to  hold to me.

[lionel_messias]

Compare the fast, direct counter-attacking of United, to the laboured, inaccurate version we showed (for example) against Stoke City. In that game Kuyt and Degen were guilty of non-incisiveness. I know Derek has since scored important goals for us, so this is not a pop at him, just a general observation.

On a positive note, last season our counter-attacking against United and Madrid was devastating-how do we get back to that now and what needs to be in the Summer to address this?

[Degs]

On a positive note, last season our counter-attacking against United and Madrid was devastating-how do we get back to that now and what needs to be in the Summer to address this?

Buy some stem cells for Aquilani

[killer_heels]

Unfortunately, every time I see a Utd win I question our tactics even more, simply because they have a style that I think we are capable of emulating, rather than teams like Barcelona and Arsenal.

The counter attacking was a case in point. How are we ever able to do great counter attacking if we bring everyone back for corners? Yes we did once score off a counter attack against Arsenal (Champions League game), but that was from a hopeful punt up field.

Although, the counter against Utd was a good one for 2-0, thanks mainly to Lucas.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

I didn't see the game, but judging from the highlights I can't see us ever being able to copy United's formula for that game with our current set of players. It's got nothing to do with bringing everyone back for corners. I don't mind that and do think it can be effective. The main problem is that, aside from Torres, we have very little pace in most areas. We'll never be able to attack with that amount of speed with the likes of Kuyt, Riera and Benayoun in attacking areas. Our game is more suited to another style.

[royhendo]

To emulate that brand of counter attacking football, you need both raw pace and the ability to knock a ball first touch exactly where you want it to go. That Park goal for example - it was a simple move and I remember the S form boys at school telling me they'd drilled moves like that. Win it on the edge of the box, centre forward drops short and knocks it first touch to a midfielder or full back moving forward, and a runner (winger, midfielder, striker, whoever) is haring 'in behind', while the oncoming player knocks it long into his path for a run in on goal.

Man Utd played it simple and one-touch, and they were sprinting. We have players in our side who need a touch before they can knock it that precisely.

As it happens, we have players who need a touch, but their second touch is a tackle.

Maxi is an example of someone who can play that way, albeit he doesn't seem to have the pace to do the hare part. Man Utd on the other hand have Nani, Valencia, Park, Giggs, and Rooney who can all do that stuff, and enough quality deeper to deliver the right ball.

[yorkykopite]

I didn't see the game, but judging from the highlights I can't see us ever being able to copy United's formula for that game with our current set of players. It's got nothing to do with bringing everyone back for corners. I don't mind that and do think it can be effective. The main problem is that, aside from Torres, we have very little pace in most areas. We'll never be able to attack with that amount of speed with the likes of Kuyt, Riera and Benayoun in attacking areas. Our game is more suited to another style.

It's not even that. It's about being able to spot an opportunity and embracing the risk to capitalise on it. It's about knowing where to run, as much as it is about speed to get there (the United players who broke yesterday picked superbly complimentary angles). It's also about having players who don't slow down too much when they actually have the ball (Rooney, like Gascoigne, actually appears to speed up when the ball's at his feet)

Sure, out and out pace is nice. But most football will continue to be played in confined areas. I'd prefer us to have astute and skillful players than mere speedsters. The worse combination of course is slow and dull-witted. But one day I'm sure we'll jettison players like that.

[No666]

By that analysis roy, we're slightly lacking in both departments -although I think perhaps only slightly. AA is capable of much more imaginative passing than Lucas/Masch once he finds his rhythm. As far as the other players go - Riera can turn on a sprint on occasion. (I come back to that second goal against AV last spring.) And a lot of our best counter-attacking last season was brilliant pace and sure-touch stuff from Gerrard and Torres.
This is why I wouldn't be too upset if Benayoun was traded up in the summer (in this sunlit world where we get 4th place and the yanks bugger off in a haze of red wine and expletives). Yossi is at an age and of an inconsistency (Xabi was going to be traded in for similar inconsistency) where we might as well take the £7-8m on offer, add it to a similar amount for Babel, and get ourselves a Dabeed Sil-ba.

[sjh]

When you refer back to the RM framework that started this thread does anyone else think we don't fit into any of the levels.

We have very little pace for a traditional counter (L2). And lack the ball retainers and quick defenders to play (L3).

Does Rafa even want us to fit into one of these levels? Did he use them when he had success at Valencia? Do we need to reconsider who wrote the book and the RM/Cruyff/dutch idea of how football should be played?

Just throwing it open for debate.

[lionel_messias]

-Ryan Babel offers you that pace.

And if we are not selling, surely we should be using him in some way?

[fredmilne]

Sure, out and out pace is nice. But most football will continue to be played in confined areas. I'd prefer us to have astute and skillful players than mere speedsters.

Clemence, Neal, Thompson, Hansen, Kennedy, Case, McDermott, Souness, Kennedy, Dalglish, Johnson.  Our best side and not a great amount of out and out pace to be found.

[yorkykopite]

Clemence, Neal, Thompson, Hansen, Kennedy, Case, McDermott, Souness, Kennedy, Dalglish, Johnson.  Our best side and not a great amount of out and out pace to be found.

Christ that is a slow team. A bit of pace in young Hansen and a bit more in Terry Mac, but the rest are not exactly fleet of foot (fleet of mind though).

666 - I wouldn't get rid of Yossi Benayoun. He's inconsistent? Perhaps. You try playing his Level 3 stuff in a Level 1 team. I'm amazed he's as effective as he is at Liverpool. Better teammates would see Yossi's game take on another dimension. He's one of the few players we've got who has some idea of what to do with the ball before it gets to him. That's pace.

[redy]

-Ryan Babel offers you that pace.

And if we are not selling, surely we should be using him in some way?

Now that bit I do not understand. What is happening with him? Last minute increased bid?

[scatman]

Christ that is a slow team. A bit of pace in young Hansen and a bit more in Terry Mac, but the rest are not exactly fleet of foot (fleet of mind though).

666 - I wouldn't get rid of Yossi Benayoun. He's inconsistent? Perhaps. You try playing his Level 3 stuff in a Level 1 team. I'm amazed he's as effective as he is at Liverpool. Better teammates would see Yossi's game take on another dimension. He's one of the few players we've got who has some idea of what to do with the ball before it gets to him. That's pace.

Gotta agree, Yossi wouldnt be a guy that i'd want to leave though if it meant we got Silva i wouldnt complain.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/timvickery/2010/02/the_legacy_of_rene_higuita.html

Nice article here guys, not much indepth about how Higuita contributed to the change in keeping but it's enjoyable, hopefully something to pull you away from how good the mancs were and how our youth are getting raided.

[No666]

I don't agree his team-mates are responsible for his patchy form, yorky. Don't get me wrong - I like him as a player a whole lot more than comes across in my post. I'm not rampantly in favour of getting rid - it's just I'm not against trading up, given his age etc. (For personal preference out of the first-choice 'three', I'd trade up on Dirky but that's never going to happen.)

[b_joseph]

-Ryan Babel offers you that pace.

And if we are not selling, surely we should be using him in some way?

When we first started to use the 4-2-3-1, Ryan was the left sided player of that 3 and we actually counter attacked really quickly with Alonso setting it off and Babel,Ste and Nando just bursting forward. There was a game at Bolton that year where we did it to perfection numerous times.

I agree with the folk who would prefer speed of thought over speed of foot. But in certain areas, especially in back up players, it would be really nice to have some well above average athletes to get around the pitch when tempo needs to be won or pressing needs to start.

[yorkykopite]

(For personal preference out of the first-choice 'three', I'd trade up on Dirky but that's never going to happen.)

Not least because no-one would want him.

[killer_heels]

We have a number of players that cover the ground pretty well in a short space of time. Torres, Johnson and Gerrard are strong, quick and powerful runners. Even Insua and Lucas do pretty well at get forward brilliantly on the counters.

I think we have more than enough (ok, maybe one more pacy player in the first team could help) to be like that. The issue is, do we want to be like that?

I do find it puzzling though because Rafa does mention counter attacking quite a bit and I do wonder where we exactly put this into practice, apart from the 2-0 game against Utd.

Against Stoke we had opportunities but clearly the players then were not good enough to carry it out. Even Aurelio was more concerned with taking a shot on goal from the half way line than looking for the counter opportunity.

[Vulmea]

Don’t believe it we’ve switched from Barcelona to United!!!!

United have been a counter attacking team since the world began. It’s what Ferguson has always done, one of the reasons they are such flat track bullies get a goal up and then just pick of the opposition.

We’ve beaten them 3 out of 3 yet we are admiring their ‘football’. Really?  That’s their first win against a top 4 side since 2007.

Yesterday if Arsenal had possessed a striker or Arshavin had played remotely like he did against us last season Arsenal would have been 2 – 0 up before Rooney kicked the ball.

Park’s goal was based on Eboue falling over and Clichy having a mare. Football analysis. Blah!. Rooney’s goal was down to Denilson just stopping, thinking he’d done enough just running back and being totally unaware of Rooney behind him. Bad defensive mistakes which United exploited clinically.

Rooney however was absolutely brilliant, his goal was well taken but there was one long range reverse pass second half that was fantastic.

The difference in the two sides was belief , Arsenal lacked it before they even kicked off, nothing to do with United’s game plan just their name. Same reason Wolves B team turned up which seems to have completely revitalised their season.Mind you given the complete lack of atmosphere I couldn’t be arsed playing for Arsenal either. The empty seats with 20 to go were a disgrace.

A defeat to Chelsea and a dispirited Fabregas and Arsenals season could implode.

[abhred]

We have a number of players that cover the ground pretty well in a short space of time. Torres, Johnson and Gerrard are strong, quick and powerful runners. Even Insua and Lucas do pretty well at get forward brilliantly on the counters.

I think we have more than enough (ok, maybe one more pacy player in the first team could help) to be like that. The issue is, do we want to be like that?

I do find it puzzling though because Rafa does mention counter attacking quite a bit and I do wonder where we exactly put this into practice, apart from the 2-0 game against Utd.

Against Stoke we had opportunities but clearly the players then were not good enough to carry it out. Even Aurelio was more concerned with taking a shot on goal from the half way line than looking for the counter opportunity.

Keeps coming back to the fact that we're just a mish-mash of different styles. Without actually being good at any one particular style.

[b_joseph]

Don’t believe it we’ve switched from Barcelona to United!!!!

United have been a counter attacking team since the world began. It’s what Ferguson has always done, one of the reasons they are such flat track bullies get a goal up and then just pick of the opposition.

We’ve beaten them 3 out of 3 yet we are admiring their ‘football’. Really?  That’s their first win against a top 4 side since 2007.

They have already beaten Spurs . In all seriousness, they beat Arsenal back in August or September. One of those early months.

There is no shame in being a counter attacking team. Find a formula, perfect the formula, win with the formula.

[Hank Scorpio]

No one is bumming United here Vulmea!  You have to hold your hands up to their approach and play yesterday though.

There is no shame in being a counter attacking team. Find a formula, perfect the formula, win with the formula.

The best teams use counter attack as a weapon rather than a premise.  It's probably the most potent weapon in football today given the lack of space often found at the top level (teams being more organised, players physically fitter etc than years back).