Author Topic: Countries producing a single genius...  (Read 3247 times)

Offline nidgemo

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Countries producing a single genius...
« on: June 6, 2008, 05:15:00 PM »
We all know that football is the most popular participation sport in the world, and that in all countries where football is played, millions, tens of millions, are playing football as soon as they can walk.

Countries like Brazil, Argentina, Holland, France, Germany, Italy, even England have produced brilliant footballer after brilliant footballer...

But what causes a country to just suddenly produce a genius? A player who has grown up in the same background, with the same upbringing, the same advantages and disadvantages as all his countrypeople, all his peers

How can Romania not produce a true world class player before or since, but produce Geogri Hagi?
Why has Hungary not produced another Puskas?
When is the next George Best going to come out of Northern Ireland?
Is Hristo Stoichkov the last (and only) Bulgarian football legend we'll ever see?
Is Liberia teeming with undiscovered George Weah's?

Did these players only look SO good exactly because their countrmen were so much worse than them? (though most, if not all, played at the highest level in foreign countries, won european cups and led their international sides to levels not seen before or since)

Even if so - how did just ONE player, just one time, suddenly get SO much better than everyone else?
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #1 on: June 6, 2008, 05:18:43 PM »
Why has Hungary not produced another Puskas?


They have, his name is Nemeth
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #2 on: June 6, 2008, 05:19:54 PM »
George Weah is the one that stands out the most there. Hungary and Romania have had decent teams before and after Haghi and Puskas and will always keep churning out players some of whom might hit the heights. But I doubt anyone could name another Liberian footballer.

What's the biggest country to have never produced a world class (or even top level) footballer? India?
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #3 on: June 6, 2008, 05:22:32 PM »
Australia

What's the biggest country to have never produced a world class footballer? India?


USA ?
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Offline nidgemo

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #4 on: June 6, 2008, 05:27:05 PM »
USA ?

They've certainly produced top level, but certainly not world class.

However, it does point out one of the inherent things in the question - had the USA only produced one player of the level of a Keller, Howar, Friedel, McBride etc - would they look a lot better because the team around them was worse? Is that what has actually happened in these countries?

Was Hagi actually a 10/10, or an 8/10 playing in a team of 5/10's ? Were there lots of players as good as him at the time, but playing for "better" countries, and therefore less noticable?

If Burkina Faso had produced David Beckham, would he be on the list above? Are footballers judged by their peers as much as by their own talents?
« Last Edit: June 6, 2008, 05:29:07 PM by nidgemo »
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Offline JohnnyDrama

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #5 on: June 6, 2008, 05:29:27 PM »
Australia produce Christian Varei (sp?) even tho he choose Italy over us and Dean Bouzanis will be world class and hes from Aus.

Kewell could of been if he didn't get injured and continued from what he was at Leeds
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #6 on: June 6, 2008, 05:29:56 PM »
They've certainly produced top level, but certainly not world class.



That's what I was referring to.
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #7 on: June 6, 2008, 05:29:58 PM »
George Weah is the one that stands out the most there. Hungary and Romania have had decent teams before and after Haghi and Puskas and will always keep churning out players some of whom might hit the heights. But I doubt anyone could name another Liberian footballer.

Ali Dia, his "cousin", Souness's friend?
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #8 on: June 6, 2008, 05:31:59 PM »
Ali Dia, his "cousin", Souness's friend?

Haha! Good point.
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #9 on: June 6, 2008, 05:33:37 PM »
Was Hagi actually a 10/10, or an 8/10 playing in a team of 5/10's ? Were there lots of players as good as him at the time, but playing for "better" countries, and therefore less noticable?

He played for Real Madrid and Barcelona. The record with clubs gives some indication of class. Ryans Giggs is admittedly a not bad player - he did not get that reputation from what he has achieved with Wales.
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #10 on: June 6, 2008, 05:42:38 PM »
Genghis Khan? whatever you think of his politics, he was quite something.

And I can't think of much to come out of Mongolia since, apart from the steakhouse
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Offline pinky

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #11 on: June 6, 2008, 05:43:22 PM »
He played for Real Madrid and Barcelona. The record with clubs gives some indication of class. Ryans Giggs is admittedly a not bad player - he did not get that reputation from what he has achieved with Wales.

He was a very bad player for both clubs considering his popularity and his stature.

At Madrid (90-91, 91-92) he failed to substitute Martin Vazquez who had gone to Italy in the summer of 1990. He won nothing in his his two seasons there.

At Barcelona he spent two seasons also (94-95, 95-96) didn't impress and didn't win anything either.

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #12 on: June 6, 2008, 06:07:55 PM »
Quote
But I doubt anyone could name another Liberian footballer.

was it Libya or Zambia that lost a talented team in the 90's due to a plane crush?


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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #13 on: June 6, 2008, 06:12:06 PM »
India has had one player in all of its history go and play in the leagues of Europe.

Bhaichung Bhutia, who played for FC Bury a few years ago.

So, I suppose amongst the big countries in the world, we are the worst.
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Offline Phil M

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #14 on: June 6, 2008, 06:14:51 PM »
He was a very bad player for both clubs considering his popularity and his stature.

At Madrid (90-91, 91-92) he failed to substitute Martin Vazquez who had gone to Italy in the summer of 1990. He won nothing in his his two seasons there.

At Barcelona he spent two seasons also (94-95, 95-96) didn't impress and didn't win anything either.

Not exactly a major honour but he actually won the Supercopa with both clubs :wave.

Excuse my pedantry. ;D
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Offline xabi14

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #15 on: June 6, 2008, 06:19:31 PM »
was it Libya or Zambia that lost a talented team in the 90's due to a plane crush?



Was Zambia that, this article says there were no survivors, so basically they lost all 18 players, and the coaches.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E02E5D7163BF934A25751C0A962958260&n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/Subjects/S/Soccer

Offline cynicaloldgit

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #16 on: June 6, 2008, 06:45:00 PM »
Interesting question but it must be noted that Hungary's near-invincible side of the 1950s also contained genuine "world class" talent like Nandor Hidegkuti, Sandor Kocsis and Zoltan Czibor. These players would have been lauded far more than is the case if they hadn't been from behind the Iron Curtain- as, indeed, is the case with Puskas himelf.

Getting onto the game right now, countries like India, the USA and China simply don't have a footballing culture so it's not really surprising that they haven't produced any genuine world stars. That may change in the future, as the populations of those countries are far too big to be completely talentless; besides, when people start seeing how much footballers earn in the west, they are going to be encouraging their children to take up the game more.

Other countries- notably in Africa- have the culture but not the infrastructure to nurture talent. The very best make it these days but there are many barefooted kids who show a lot of talent but simply never get discovered or have the opportunity to progress. I live in Mauritius these days and I've played football with a few kids who are easily good enough to get trials (at the very least) at lower league clubs in the UK but I wouldn't imagine that there are too many talent scouts out in this neck of the woods and the local game is so crippled by politics that these boys don't get a chance even on the island itself. It's sad, really.
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #17 on: June 6, 2008, 06:50:57 PM »
Ryans Giggs is admittedly a not bad player - he did not get that reputation from what he has achieved with Wales.

don't know if the above was meant to include Giggs in Nidge's original category of One Country One Footballer, but I'd like to think John Charles would certainly be in with a shout as a world class Welsh footballer...

and as for Hungary, surely Florian Albert merits a mention...
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Offline nidgemo

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #18 on: June 6, 2008, 06:58:42 PM »
don't know if the above was meant to include Giggs in Nidge's original category of One Country One Footballer, but I'd like to think John Charles would certainly be in with a shout as a world class Welsh footballer...

and as for Hungary, surely Florian Albert merits a mention...

Yep, Wales certainly couldn't be said to have only produced one world class player. Our own Ian Rush was truly world class - Ratcliffe and the binman were probably up there at their height as well (Rush played against Maldini and Baresi etc -and said Ratcliff was the best he;d ever faced)
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #19 on: June 6, 2008, 08:41:47 PM »
Australia produce Christian Varei (sp?) even tho he choose Italy over us and Dean Bouzanis will be world class and hes from Aus.

Kewell could've been if he didn't get injured and continued from what he was at Leeds

define what genius is nidge: as in cruyff genius or a great player ala muller-scored tons but can't be really classified as one. a player can be classified as world-class but not a genius; it takes a certain flair, nuttiness, a sublime mind, maybe all three, to pull that off (ie garrincha rai and socrates geniuses. baresi great player but not a genius).

as i'd lean towards the former, vieri if that's you meant drama is not a genius. neither was kewell. :P

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ps. bhatia was great but not a genius. i'd even put forward kazu miura or nakata ahead of him, maybe paulino alcantara, if we're talking geniuses of asia. :)
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #20 on: June 6, 2008, 08:45:38 PM »
define what genius is nidge: as in cruyff genius or a great player ala muller-scored tons but can't be really classified as one. a player can be classified as world-class but not a genius; it takes a certain flair, nuttiness, a sublime mind, maybe all three, to pull that off (ie garrincha rai and socrates geniuses. baresi great player but not a genius).

as i'd lean towards the former, vieri if that's you meant drama is not a genius. neither was kewell. :P

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ps. bhatia was great but not a genius. i'd even put forward kazu miura or nakata ahead of him, maybe paulino alcantara, if we're talking geniuses of asia. :)

You've got me wrong mate, no way do I believe that Bhutia is great.  I was just alluding to the fact that out of a country of 1 billion people, one person has gone to play in Europe.  Wasn't suggesting that he was a genius at all. 
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #21 on: June 6, 2008, 08:47:20 PM »
Rush played against Maldini and Baresi etc -and said Ratcliff was the best he'd ever faced.

Yeah, but he also said playing in Italy was like being in a foreign country.  ;)
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Offline pinky

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #22 on: June 6, 2008, 09:30:35 PM »
Not exactly a major honour but he actually won the Supercopa with both clubs :wave.

Excuse my pedantry. ;D

You damn pedant! ;D

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #23 on: June 6, 2008, 09:41:47 PM »
How a about a certain Brucie Grobbelaar...one of Zimbabwes finest !
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #24 on: June 6, 2008, 09:44:54 PM »
You've got me wrong mate, no way do I believe that Bhutia is great.  I was just alluding to the fact that out of a country of 1 billion people, one person has gone to play in Europe.  Wasn't suggesting that he was a genius at all. 

"Bengali Historians" - Boria Majumdar and Mihir Bose have unearthed a new (and of course forgotten) star called Mohamed Salim who played for Celtic in the 30's.
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #25 on: June 6, 2008, 10:14:20 PM »
I thought this thread was going to be about Roger Federer.

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #26 on: June 6, 2008, 11:25:14 PM »
We all know that football is the most popular participation sport in the world, and that in all countries where football is played, millions, tens of millions, are playing football as soon as they can walk.

Countries like Brazil, Argentina, Holland, France, Germany, Italy, even England have produced brilliant footballer after brilliant footballer...

But what causes a country to just suddenly produce a genius? A player who has grown up in the same background, with the same upbringing, the same advantages and disadvantages as all his countrypeople, all his peers

How can Romania not produce a true world class player before or since, but produce Geogri Hagi?
Why has Hungary not produced another Puskas?
When is the next George Best going to come out of Northern Ireland?
Is Hristo Stoichkov the last (and only) Bulgarian football legend we'll ever see?
Is Liberia teeming with undiscovered George Weah's?

Did these players only look SO good exactly because their countrmen were so much worse than them? (though most, if not all, played at the highest level in foreign countries, won european cups and led their international sides to levels not seen before or since)

Even if so - how did just ONE player, just one time, suddenly get SO much better than everyone else?
You're wrong about Hungary. They had decent teams and team in 50s were world class, thrashed England, spanked badly, the Mighty Magyars or something they were named :D
One player, except Puskas, I can name is Ladislao Kubala, a world class player. He's a Barcelona legend and although somewhat less known than Puskas, if one does research, he will understand what a player he was.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladislao_Kubala
I don't know others from Hungary, but surely they had other stars?!

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #27 on: June 6, 2008, 11:41:19 PM »
Kocsis was the other big star. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Team :)

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #28 on: June 6, 2008, 11:54:03 PM »
Switzerland have Degen now. Doubt they'll ever produce a player like that again.
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #29 on: June 7, 2008, 12:04:23 AM »
Switzerland have Degen now. Doubt they'll ever produce a player like that again.

Ahem...aren't you forgetting Mr. Senderos
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #30 on: June 7, 2008, 12:07:40 AM »
This is a bit off topic but the tiny country Suriname have produced Clarence Seedorf, Edgar Davids, Aron Winter & Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink even though they have a population of just under 500,000. While Ruud Gullit, Frank Rijkarrd and Ryan Babel are of Surinamese decent.


I think we should have a scout out there.
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #31 on: June 7, 2008, 12:12:56 AM »
This is a bit off topic but the tiny country Suriname have produced Clarence Seedorf, Edgar Davids, Aron Winter & Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink even though they have a population of just under 500,000. While Ruud Gullit, Frank Rijkarrd and Ryan Babel are of Surinamese decent.


I think we should have a scout out there.


Good point, and isn't Zinedine Zidane Tunisian by birth?
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #32 on: June 7, 2008, 12:14:07 AM »

Good point, and isn't Zinedine Zidane Tunisian by birth?

Algerian. I think.
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #33 on: June 7, 2008, 12:41:39 AM »
Algerian. I think.

Aah yes he's of algerian descent.
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Offline RigBon1892

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #34 on: June 7, 2008, 12:45:37 AM »
This is a bit off topic but the tiny country Suriname have produced Clarence Seedorf, Edgar Davids, Aron Winter & Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink even though they have a population of just under 500,000. While Ruud Gullit, Frank Rijkarrd and Ryan Babel are of Surinamese decent.


I think we should have a scout out there.

i think Ruud Gullit was actually born there...

Switzerland may or may not(due to his horrific injury) have had Roberto di Matteo if he'd played for the country of his birth...
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Offline pepe_carra_stevie_nando

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #35 on: June 7, 2008, 01:13:11 AM »
Australia


That would be because over here, not many people give a shit about "soccer". We have A.F.L (fuckin boss sport) and most people follow that.

It is mainly all the Europeans over here that follow "Football". Believe me, there are loads of them.
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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #36 on: June 7, 2008, 01:45:39 AM »
i think Ruud Gullit was actually born there...


I thought he was but on wiki it says he was born in Amsterdam.
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Offline JohnnyDrama

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #37 on: June 7, 2008, 03:03:50 AM »


FINLAND-my favourite player of all time JARI LITMANEN.

i was watching some youtube clips on him yesterday, fuckin class alright
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Offline RedSandgrounder

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #38 on: June 7, 2008, 03:16:31 AM »
There are probably loads of players with potential to be great in those countries, we signed 3 Hungarians last summer, and atleast one looks to be a great talent, and definately has some future in top tier football.
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Offline buchigo!

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Re: Countries producing a single genius...
« Reply #39 on: June 7, 2008, 06:58:19 AM »
i was watching some youtube clips on him yesterday, fuckin class alright

i can't find the clip but there was this instance,  i'm not sure whether it was silooy who overlapped or wooter for the cross but he did a scissors kick outside the box and the ball didn't even arc but went straight horizontally. as he grew older and he went to midfield and los cules, there was this one pass from in between halfline and the box, in barca's own half, that went straight to the once great paddy kluivert's feet for a goal. the modern equivalent i can think of is having xabi or riquelme's vision and passing combined with ruud's finishing.:)

another nominee PERU- TEOFILO CUBILLAS (assuming we don't count nobby as a genius).
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