Topic: Can we seriously win the title next season ?

[beardsley4ever]

Sensible post lad, but a couple of things in here I disagree with.

People have put too much blame on the Hicks issue for our results this season. That's bollocks. Most of the bad results came before the Klinsman thing broke.

Actually, we were undefeated at the time and only 6 points behind the Mancs with a game in hand.  Our only really bad result was the home draw against Birmingham City (can't call the away draw against Pompey a bad result - it's a tough place to win games).

Rafa, for all his virtues, does not value the Premier League as highly as Europe.  We played quite a settled team until Pompy which was the first game BEFORE the first champions league match. He rested Gerrard and Torres for that, no doubt about it. That showed that he was focussing on training and coaching his team for the European game, same when he took players off against Reading.  However, I'm ok with that. I'd rather we had Rafa as mnager and came 3rd/4th every year wih some glorious cup runs that win the league with someone like Moriniho. Rafa is class, he is a Liverpool manager. He oozes class and dignity as a man, and that is more important than winning at all costs. 

The Pompey game also came just after (by 3 days) the first international break of the season.  That was the issue.  Torres and Gerrard were rested because of that, as much as any CL game (IMO).

The Reading game is the one that irks the most.  It was right before Marseille and the Mancs, and Rafa prioritised the latter two.  I've never understood the logic of risking a defeat against a team like Reading (which should be a guaranteed 3 points) in exchange for a change of a win against the Mancs.  Losing to Reading put a lot more pressure on the game against United, and as it turned out that was when our challenge ended.

So, No. We can't seriously win the title next season because we would need to spend £150 million to get a squad that Rafa could rotate without losing quality.

I don't buy this, and the reason is that Arsenal proved this year that it can be done.  They ended the season only 4 POINTS behind United and only 2 behind Chelsea.  With a squad that (IMO) isn't as good as ours.  So it can be done, because it almost was done this year.

So can we win the league next year?  Definitely, but the odds are (obviously) against us.

[Raul!]

I don't buy this, and the reason is that Arsenal proved this year that it can be done.  They ended the season only 4 POINTS behind United and only 2 behind Chelsea.  With a squad that (IMO) isn't as good as ours.  So it can be done, because it almost was done this year.

So can we win the league next year?  Definitely, but the odds are (obviously) against us.

Excellent point on Arsenal and the only sensible conclusion to the question.

[Callaghan.]

Yes.

[My name is Emlyn]

Unfortuneately no.  A sustained challenge would be more realistic and plausible.

[RAFA - 6 - 19]

we were only 2 wins away
or turning 6 games we drew that we absolutely dominated
however you want to look at it we fell short but we could have easily won it this year not playing that well, in turmoil and with not a sgood players as others

look back at boro away, city away, blackburn away, brum x 2, wigan home - there is no way we should have lost them as we had untold chances - a  decent striker and a top goal scoring winger and we are there

[Moley]

No becausewe need to negotiate our transfer dealings. Chelsea and Utd just pay the asking price, and it brings success. Ferguson or whoever will be in charge at Stamford Bridge will just get their first choice transfer targets this summer. United are already ahead of us - how do we catch them if they add another £100m worth of talent.

I dont think any Man Utd fan will say that Carrick or Hargreaves have put in £20m worth of individual performances, but they have been worth the money because they were the players Ferguson identified as the men to improve his team so got them at any price. Unfortunatly he was right.

If Chelsea or Man Utd were interested in barry they would have signed him by now.

[MightyRedLFC]

Not with hicks incharge. As much as we have a great core of players we need sizeable investment to create a team capable of winning on a basis as consistent as the mancs. Not to mention all the unsettling effects that the yanks have brought into our club.

[Barnes & Beardsley]

Abhred, you said earlier that it’s not just about the first XI and that Utd have a great second XI. Twiggthemanc posted their second side, so why do you think it’s so amazing?

Assuming out first 11 is
             VDS
Neville Ferdinand Vidic Evra
Ronaldo Scholes Carrick Nani
           Tevez Rooney

We could field
              Foster
Brown Pique O Shea Silvestre
Park Hargreaves Fletcher Giggs
                  Anderson
              Saha

Which is still a good squad. I definitly think we've got one of the best squads in the league.

As I said earlier, it’s only in the centre that they have better squad players than ours. Giggs is a good player, but he’s only got another year in him.

                 Itandje

Arbeloa  Sami  Skrtel  Riise/Insua

Pennant  Lucas  Plessis  Benayoun

              Crouch   Voronin


Personally, I think we should stop worrying about who Chelsea and the Mancs will be signing and focus our attention on our team. Some of their signings will sink, some will swim and some will fucking drown. Why do so many people feel threatened?

Both Gerrard and Xabi have come out this week stating we need to be more consistent and not drop stupid points and that we don’t even need to beat the top two to still be challenging.

Considering the amount of stupid points dropped from the teams below (24). Do you honestly think we don’t have the players to make up about 12.

Portsmouth
Birmingham (home and away)
Spurs
Blackburn
Reading
Man City
Wigan
Middlesbrough
Villa
West Ham

We will sign a few players in the summer, they might not cost as much as some other signings, but I don’t see why so many have already written off our chances next season. If we can’t beat the teams above on a more consistent basis, then we really do have problems. I’m not saying we will win, I’m just hoping we are still in the race in April.

[cal_liverpoolfc]

personally i think it lies on the development of the team, especially lucas and babel. Then we have Plessis, Insua, Nemeth. But we have to bring in quality.

Then again we also have to turn those  stinky draws into wins.

[Art Vandelay]

We not only need to improve the first 11, but we need to get the squad good enough to compete in Europe and in the league at the same side.  We simply can't afford to go out of Europe very early....yes we may see an upturn in our league performance for the rest of that season, but come the summer when we need to strengthen we're short a significant chunk of money (considering our current owner predicament, that could be very bad indeed).  Whilst we crave the league title, a craving which certainly isn't helped by the twats up the road getting near to our total, I think we may have to accept incremental improvement over a longer period of time to be able to create long term continuing success.

[Crazyhorse7778]

But we played our best footy when we had a settled side after Feb...

We've averaged 3.5 changes per game since February, don't know where this settled side stuff is coming from..

[Barnes & Beardsley]

We all agree that we need to improve our first XI. For me that it’s more important than having a second XI equal to Utd’s ‘amazing’ squad players, which I’m not impressed by.

Hopefully the players we sign will become first choice and the players replaced will become squad players, unless they’re sold. I would like to see another attacking-mid to play on the right, meaning Kuyt will be a squad player. Also another fullback if Rafa feels Insua is not ready.

I read a lot views saying world class/top class fullbacks will cost £15m minimum and that there aren’t many world class/top class wingers out there. Rafa has improved our scouting network massively all over the world and due to our great European success, we attract a lot of players - some a lot of us have probably never heard of, let alone seen play. We only have to look at Agger and Skrtel who can be classed as great centre-halves who didn’t cost much. What about all the other players in the league who are now classed as top class or had great seasons and didn’t cost an arm and a leg.

Evra - £5.5m
Vidic - £7m
Clichy - £250K arrived 2003/4 season. Waited for Cole to fuck off before grabbing his chance with both hands.
Sagna - £6.1 rising to £7.4m
G Johnson - £3m permanent deal summer 2007/8
A Cole - £5m plus Gallas

Obviously, our scouts will have vast amounts of knowledge and will pick up someone just as good. They might not be flavour of the month and players we are all familiar with, but judging by Agger and Skrtel, I have no doubts they will be just as good and not expensive.

[rebel23]

Noooo !

Full backs must cost a minimum of £25m

it's the law.  lets blow our budget on one

[ac]

We've averaged 3.5 changes per game since February, don't know where this settled side stuff is coming from..

Settled side? no. Settled formation yes. Also I suspect at the begining of the season, the changes per game was nearer to the 5-6 mark.

[Red number seven]

We need to gain 7 points on Arsenal, 9 on Chelsea, 11 on United.

Sounds like a massive ask, in fairness.

But, just a few little points...

If we were to win the home games against...
Chelsea
Arsenal
United

That would be 7 more points for us, 3 less for United, 1 less for Chelsea and 1 less for Arsenal

Leaving us 1 point behind United, 1 point behind Chelsea and 1 point ahead of Arsenal.

We have played Chelsea and Arsenal 4 times apiece this season (not including the kids in the league cup). We've yet to be beaten in 90 minutes. We have deserved to win 3, lose 1 vs Chelsea and win 2, draw 1, lose 1 vs Arsenal, in my opinion.

United is a different matter and one Rafa needs to work out pretty damn soon. We can't afford to lose home and away against them - they are too good to pull back 6 points against.



Winning home games vs...

Wigan
Villa
Tottingham
Birmingham (or the side who replaces them)

...gives us an extra 2 points per game. We were ahead in the first 3. The other side was relegated.



We need to turn leads into wins at Anfield, pretty much all the time.

A fit Agger. A bit more attacking quality and, crucially, mentality. A bit of luck with Referees against United and Chelsea. An end to the off-field circus. Who knows how much difference that could make? looking at what we need to do, it doesn't sound like it has to be a massive amount.

Yes we can win it. We are one of only 4 clubs who can even dream of it. We are certainly no better than 3rd favourites, though, to be brutally honest.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

A fit Agger.

A crucial point. Whilst I don't think we would have won it, having him in the side for the whole season would surely have brought us a lot closer to the eventual winners. Provided he's fit, we're going to have a hell of a lot of competition on our hands at centre back next season.

[Maverick Army]

May be ...May not be.....

[Britvic Orange]

All depends on the summer signings, which IMO, is the most important summer for Liverpool since the start of the League.

Get rid of the deadwood in Riise, Pennant, Finnan, Voronin, and try to get some good quality players.

All depends on the transfer market.

Unfortunately the top tier players people talk about signing to take us to the next level are wanted by all the Giants of the game and lets face it if your a top top player your not going to sign for Liverpool when you can sign for a United, Madrid, Milan or Barcalona are you.

[redprodigal]

Unfortunately the top tier players people talk about signing to take us to the next level are wanted by all the Giants of the game and lets face it if your a top top player your not going to sign for Liverpool when you can sign for a United, Madrid, Milan or Barcalona are you.

Torres did 

[stephen_the_red]

Cant see it.  However, i reckon if the players try a bit more, the  Carling Cup is within our grasp. It could be a replacement for Premier League. We need to play our full team, that means the likes of Torres, Reina, Voronin, Carragher every game - and if we do that - THE CARLING CUP IS OURS!

[Britvic Orange]

Torres did 

Yeah but we weren't fighting it out with Madrid, Barca, United, Milan and United for his signature, the reason he signed for us was because of the Spanish connection of a Spanish manager Alonso, Arbeloa, Reina and plus the input from his other Spanish team mates of Garcia and Morientes there is no way he would of signed for Liverpool otherwise no matter what the song says.

[the_prodigal_s0n]

Torres did 

Mascherano too. Okay, he wasn't having the best of times at West Ham, but judging from the world cup he was clearly a world class player. Alonso too. IMO we don't need to sign the cream of Europe to win the league. We just need solid players who can help improve us (obviously). Too many people are obsessed with the idea of needing world class players for us to win the league. It's highly unlikely we'll win it next season, but there's a chance. With the right attitude and a little more quality we can do it. Despite all the shit from this season, we only finished 11 points off the top.

[redprodigal]

Yeah but we weren't fighting it out with Madrid, Barca, United, Milan and United for his signature, the reason he signed for us was because of the Spanish connection of a Spanish manager Alonso, Arbeloa, Reina and plus the input from his other Spanish team mates of Garcia and Morientes there is no way he would've signed for Liverpool otherwise no matter what the song says.

I really think if we sorted the ownership thing out and we went for 2 or 3 class players, those players would look at it and realise that we are only those 2 or 3 players away from being one of those top clubs you mention. Therefore in reality they would be joining a team with the immediate potential to be every bit as good as United, Barca, Madrid, Milan and the likes. Wait a minute, we are already as good as Barca,Madrid, Milan and the likes. What the fuck are we talking about?

[Britvic Orange]

I really think if we sorted the ownership thing out and we went for 2 or 3 class players, those players would look at it and realise that we are only those 2 or 3 players away from being one of those top clubs you mention. Therefore in reality they would be joining a team with the immediate potential to be every bit as good as United, Barca, Madrid, Milan and the likes. Wait a minute, we are already as good as Barca,Madrid, Milan and the likes. What the fuck are we talking about?

In all fairness we cant really compare ourselves to the giants of the game while we have only won one major honour in the champions league since 1990, the Madrids, Barca's, Milan's, United's and Bayern Munich's of the world have won in excess of 10-12 Champions leagues and domestic league titles combined individually each between them. While we have been going sideways and backward under Moores, Parry, poor players and a succession of managers nowhere near good enough to deliver us the major honours the giants of the game have not stood still unlike us and built up a lead in honours, power and money am afraid we are just not going to overtake. As we speak and being honest I just cant see Liverpool ever winning the league while Chelsea and United are in the league because no matter what we do they are always going to be more powerful than us in money and signing the very best players. We are just not going to break into the top two the same as Everton, Spurs and Villa will not break into the top three.

[sammy22]

Not with the current sqaud, and with Hicks around that is unlikely to change, particuarly with his attitude of "Rafa I want you to make a profit in regards to net spending ok. If you spend 15m make sure player sales bring in 16m"

We're light years behind chel and manure and some way off Arsenal. If Hicks goes thats another matter entirely, so perhaps the question should be what are the chances of getting rid of Hicks before the start of next season?

[Illmatic]

Bolllocks, we're 2 or 3 players away that's all. The "Toffs" are 11 players away ffs.

Lescott would improve us.

[Illmatic]

The only way Liverpool will win the league next season is if United, Chelsea and Arsenal are thrown out for financial irregularities. I honestly believe our priorities for next season is trying to stay ahead of the Toffs, Villa, Spurs and Newcastle in the pursuit of trying to secure fourth place, them teams are closer to us than what we are to the top two.

Either your a manc or you nothing about football.

[kundalini]

Serious, the chances are probably 10% or less. The ownership saga seems unlikely to be resolved for a while, Rafa may have some cash to spend but not enough to strength the squad to the level of Chelsea or Man United. Then it is a case of just hoping that key players are fit throughout the whole campaign, stay on form for long periods, get a few fortunate decisions in the matches against the title rivals, and that their important players are sat on the treatment table for months.

The reality is what happened to Arsenal, played great football for most of the season but squad not strong enough and got found out during a tough run in. Chelsea and Man United had injuries but their replacements were good enough to keep them challenging. If Kuyt suffers a bad injury and is out for 4 months then I suspect Liverpool can cope but SG or Torres, Mascerano or Reina and you are talking big problems. Remember Chelsea missed Drogba for almost 1/2 their matches while Rooney was absent for perhaps 10-15 Premier League games for Man United. Nevermind Gary Neville out for the whole season, Scholes and Lampard missing big chunks, and so on. Yes Liverpool suffered injuries too but certainly no worse than the other big 4 sides.

Had more cash been available then I think Rafa is a good enough manager to give himself a chance at winning the title but since he doesn't have the money to purchase 3 or 4 £20m players then the reality is that 3rd or 4th place is far more likely than 1st or even 2nd. It strikes me that Rafa is a worthy equal of the other top 4 managers but that the financial realities are so harsh that he can't afford any transfers that don't come off, and we all know that poor buys happen to every manager.

During 2007/8 Chelsea sacked one manager while Man United started the season with 2 draws and 1 defeat from 3 relatively straightforward matches. And yet by the end of the season they were the top two sides. It is unlikely that either side will be quite so incompetent during 2008/9 so that means any club wishing to finish above them will need even more points than the 87 that won the title.

[won ton]

it depends do you believe the current squad we have is capable of winning the league. I dont think the players we have been rumoured to be buying improve the side at all. id love some real pace on the flanks then maybe i would think yeah it cold be ours next year

[kundalini]

We all agree that we need to improve our first XI. For me that it’s more important than having a second XI equal to Utd’s ‘amazing’ squad players, which I’m not impressed by.

Hopefully the players we sign will become first choice and the players replaced will become squad players, unless they’re sold. I would like to see another attacking-mid to play on the right, meaning Kuyt will be a squad player. Also another fullback if Rafa feels Insua is not ready.

I read a lot views saying world class/top class fullbacks will cost £15m minimum and that there aren’t many world class/top class wingers out there. Rafa has improved our scouting network massively all over the world and due to our great European success, we attract a lot of players - some a lot of us have probably never heard of, let alone seen play. We only have to look at Agger and Skrtel who can be classed as great centre-halves who didn’t cost much. What about all the other players in the league who are now classed as top class or had great seasons and didn’t cost an arm and a leg.

Evra - £5.5m
Vidic - £7m
Clichy - £250K arrived 2003/4 season. Waited for Cole to fuck off before grabbing his chance with both hands.
Sagna - £6.1 rising to £7.4m
G Johnson - £3m permanent deal summer 2007/8
A Cole - £5m plus Gallas

Obviously, our scouts will have vast amounts of knowledge and will pick up someone just as good. They might not be flavour of the month and players we are all familiar with, but judging by Agger and Skrtel, I have no doubts they will be just as good and not expensive.

Yes £20m players (or lets describe them as A- players, A+ being Messi, Ronaldo, Kaka etc) do get signed for £5m, £7m and sometimes on free transfers too. But how many £5m rated players do you have to buy in order to get one Evra? And how long do you have to wait around while Evra or Clichy or Vidic adapts to the Premier League and starts to play like a A-/£20m player rather than a D/£2m one?

Ryan Babbel looks like he may, in time, become a A-/£20m player. But I'd be surprised if it happened as soon as next season.  For 2008/9 Rafa needs players that don't need long spells finding their way in the Premier League. Torres managed it but many others have taken a lot longer to make the sort impact that was expected. How many years did it take Ronaldo to go from stepover posing to actually making an impact?

[Aruns]

We also lack one match winner. We already have Gerrard and Torres, but we need one more to make the 'holy trinity' (cringes). Unless one of our raw diamonds, Babel or Lucas (Babel specifically) do what Ronaldo did in the 06/07 season, and turn it on, don't think we'll be able to win.

I hope, it will be Németh. Perhaps not from the next season entirely, but from 2009-2010 for sure.

[Rush Aldridge Whelan Keegan]

I am afraid to say that I don't think we will win it next season, maybe not for a few years.

In this day an age, we would need to spend very heavily to have a chance and I can't see that happening with the shambles in the boardroom. Also we don't exactly have a recent history of Wenger type kids coming through and setting the league alight, so unless that changes, we will be fighting for 3rd or 4th again, probably for many years to come.

With Man U winning a ridiculous 10 premiership titles and now also with John Terry's slip it does not look very rosy. I think our only hope is for Benitez to be given many years, hopefully the boardroom will settle one way or another, the stadium finally get itself built and the funds to start flowing in. Also if we could get the commercial side of things up to speed I think we would be in a great position to dominate again like we used to, but that may not be soon enough for Gerrard or Carragher.

[liverpooll]

One point is also how the other teams improve

its no question man utd will only improve and to win the title we need to improve at a faster rate than them

[No666]

In this day an age, we would need to spend very heavily to have a chance and I can't see that happening with the shambles in the boardroom. Also we don't exactly have a recent history of Wenger type kids coming through and setting the league alight, so unless that changes, we will be fighting for 3rd or 4th again, probably for many years to come.

Unfortunately I tend to agree. If Hicks and Gillett were bought out early this summer we might stand a chance. Otherwise, I fear it will be frustration next year and if some of the also-rans spend heavily we may be yet again having our work cut out on the race for 4th. 

[the jesus]

One point is also how the other teams improve

its no question man utd will only improve and to win the title we need to improve at a faster rate than them

That is not neccesarily true though, if that was the case and UTD got better every year we wouldn't have a hope in hell and by now Utd would be playing such good football your eyes would bleed just watching them.

Chelsea have spent a fortune in the last two years for no noticable improvement. Utd have in the past had similar years where what they have bought is no better or worse than what has gone out/got old......Eric Djemba Djemba.....so good they named him twice...cough.)

Even with money it is still difficult to consistently buy players who are going to improve an excellent team.


That said , i see us being slightly closer but out of it by March

[the jesus]

we may be yet again having our work cut out on the race for 4th. 

We cruised to 4th this year in the end, and the two seasons before that we were thir no?
We may not have huge amounts to spend but we have the advantage of playing Champions league football which should give us the edge when competing for signings with the likes of Spurs.

[Rush Aldridge Whelan Keegan]

Chelsea have spent a fortune in the last two years

Can you back that claim up?
Not sure about 2006/7 but last year their net spend was just £5m:

(in £000s unless stated)

	Liverpool		Manchester United		Chelsea		Arsenal
Turnover	133,910		210,081		177,109		176,507
Media	52,161		61,484		Not Avail		44,312
Matchday	38,442		92,562		Not Avail		90,613
Commercial	41,794		56,035		Not Avail		41,582
Amortisation of Player Registrations	33,126		24,252		69,968		18,782
Staff Wages	77,589		91,588		122,779		89,703
Staff Wages as % of Turnover	57.9%		43.6%		69.3%		50.8%
Gross Transfer Expenditure	69,972		78,998		26,802		17,585
Net Transfer Expenditure	44,026		61,718		5,202		(1,569)

© Tim Moore

[the jesus]

Can you back that claim up?
Not sure about 2006/7 but last year their net spend was just £5m:

The point which you missed was that they did not improve however just to please you.


Aug Ashley Cole  Arsenal  £5m 
Aug Khalid Boulahrouz  Hamburg  £7m 
June John Mikel Obi  Lyn  £16m 
May Ben Sahar Hapoel  Tev Aviv £320,000 
May Andrei Shevchenko  AC Milan  £30.8m
May Salomon Kalou  Feyenoord  £8m 
May Michael Ballack  Bayern Munich Free


None of which includes wages

[HarryLabrador]

We are not likely to win anything again whilst the Yanks own us. They are nothing but a curse on us. Correct me if I'm wrong, we have won nothing of note under their stewardship and it will continue till we become the Texas Rangers of the North. Right now we need to spend big on 2 wide players, not makeshift ones, like Babel (who really should stay a striker), or Kuyt.

God, I feel so broken, These barstewards have taken away the only constant in our lives.

We lose our jobs, but we still have Liverpool.

We go through divorce, but thank God, we still have Liverpool.

We sadly lose our loved ones, and thank God you gave us Liverpool.

I can go on ad infinitum and will always finish with Liverpool.

So what do we do when they take away what we knew as Liverpool from us?

[SwedenRed]

I think we can win the League. We need to re-inforce the team with at least 3 'good' players, play games with a consistent back-bone, and we will do better. I still beleive this season Rafa changed key players too often, and if he changes his policy somewhat, I beleive we can push for the title.