Topic: The next big thing...

[nidgemo]

How can so many good judges and knowledgable football people be so wrong?

Richie Partridge, Mark Smyth, John Welsh, Zak Whitbread, Darren Potter, Stephen Wright, David Raven, Jon Otsemobor - even Neil Mellor...

There is a long list of these guys - players who many of the best observers and fans think have a real chance of making it - and yet the numbers who disappoint are far greater - of course, not everyone can make it - but where are these people now? Some were strongly tipped to make it and are struggling in the 4th teir?

How can so many good judges be so wrong, and, with our current reserve team achieving success at the minute and playing in the cup final tonight, are we realistic to expect ANYONE to come through and actually make it as a LFC player (or even a top player with another side)

Are there any more "next big thing" LFC players who have dramatically fallen to find a level at which they are comfortable?

Warnock and David Thompson (and perhaps Pongolle) aside - has anyone come close and gone on to make a decent top level career for themselves?

[JohnBarnesBigToe]

Dominic Matteo did ok for Blackburn and Leeds

[nicholasanthony]

maybe we have such success in the reserves and under 18's because our players play as a team and are no real superstars of the teams

[Gus 1855]

When you compare some of those players with those we have now, there is a distinct difference in technical ability.

Partridge, Otsemoboor, Wright and Mellor were good lads that evryone really wanted to do well.
Compare the level of technical ability with the likes of Nemeth, Insua, Bruna and Pacheco, I think there is a clear difference.

I would say, the first 4 are more akin to Spearing, Darby, Brouwer and Putterill, who as much as I would like to see do well, I don't think they have the promise that the 4 imports have.

[Art Vandelay]

If Mellor didn't have the knees of an arthritic 80 year old grandma, he could have made it...if not at Liverpool then certainly in the premiership.

[JohnBarnesBigToe]

If Mellor didn't have the knees of an arthritic 80 year old grandma, he could have made it...if not at Liverpool then certainly in the Premier League.

Still remember that goal against Arsenal

[dgoh]

Still remember that goal against Arsenal

who can forget that?

[shanklyboy]

It's never been any difference in comparible terms.
Young players have always fallen into the succeed and fail categories.The difference now is peoples focus on our youth system to provide the next Fowler or Gerrard.
Sometimes it's just being in the right place at the right time with the right coach.
That applies to 'established' senior players aswell as the younger squad players.
Look at Finnan and even Carra to a certain extent, under Rafa.
The crop of kids we have now are the best in a generation in my opinion. Some will prove to be valuable squad members next season and if lady luck is smiling on them, some will establish a place in the team. Insua is the most likely.
I think if you can carve out a career as a pro, you have to be seen as being successful, which many of the lads mentioned above are doing.

Going back years there were players in the reserves who many thought stood a chance.
Peter Wall, John McGloughlin, Roy Evans,Steve Peplow and Paul Jewell to name but a few.
Then there were the almost made it's like Jack Whitam, Ian Ross and Bobby Graham.

It's never been any different, you just had to be a sad bastard like me in the past, to take any notice about what was going on below first team level. The only real way to do that was to attend reserve games.
The only other source of info in those days was 2 lines in the programme about a player , every now and again.

Now you can watch them live on LFCtv every week, and everyones an expert judge then.

[lfc_col]

If Mellor didn't have the knees of an arthritic 80 year old grandma, he could have made it...if not at Liverpool then certainly in the Premier League.

he doing ok at preston scored a few goals at the end of this season for them

[PaislyShankley]

I would guess that Mellor could have made it at a PL club, but not a top four one.

[ABZ Rover]

Dominic Matteo did ok for Blackburn and Leeds

Matteo was an absolute dog of a player at Blackburn, we could not get rid fast enough.

Warnock on the other hand has shown himself to more than capable at Prem level.  Gets caught out now and again but overall a pretty consistent performer.

David Thompson also did well for Blackburn before the injuries took there toll.  Shame he had to pack it in so early.

[DowntheLine1981]

Its a shame about Mellor.  I remember reading about him in the reserves and thinking stupidly that he'll be our Rooney.  He used to blast them in week in week out.  Of course, the Prem is about pace and Mellor just didn't have it.

Great finisher though.

[Dr Cornwallis]

It DOES make you question the ability of our coaches and scouts, I must say.
The likes of Owen and Gerrard would have come through at any club, such is their talent and natural ability.

[c0burn]

I remember seeing Mellor in the Blue Leopard in town. Naughty boy!

[mariov77]

maybe we have such success in the reserves and under 18's because our players play as a team and are no real superstars of the teams

Well said !!!!

[jason23]

In this day and age of instant success, there is little or no time for the Big 4 clubs to blood young players.

Who in the last 5 or so years has made the step up from youth/reserve level to established squad/regular in any of the Big 4 teams?

[oddball]

Oh, I thought it was a thread about me.

[markay_stinkay]

In this day and age of instant success, there is little or no time for the Big 4 clubs to blood young players.

Who in the last 5 or so years has made the step up from youth/reserve level to established squad/regular in any of the Big 4 teams?

Brown, Fletcher, Clichy, Fabregas etc.

[todda]

Its a VERY fine line between being a good player and a great player and to make it at a big club like ours you have to fall into the great category, otherwise you'll end up at Crewe, Wrexham or if your lucky, Bolton!

The fine line is how dedicated you are, and you have to be very dedicated and when your 18,19,20 years old its a BIG sacrifice to eat well, sleep well don't go out with all your mates to the pub (coz at the end of the day they're not famous, yet, so they won't be recognised - or not by people normal folk, only by die hards and worse of all, kit men, physios, Stewards, staff etc.) and that's where alot of these young 'Great white hope's' go wrong.  and who could blame them I know when I was 18, 19 20 the last thing I wanted to do on a Friday night was stay in and watch tele whilst my mates all were down the boozer.

Ok you'll get a 'exception to the rule' Stevie, Carra but, they're once ever 5 or 6 years one top player comes through.  Whilst we have a number of promising youngsters on our books at the mo not all will make it, the ones with the best chance are possibly the foreign youngsters as they haven't got their mates over here egging them on to come out.

that's why you'll find alot of the young local talent will go to waste, it's a shame but, thats life.  try telling a 19 yr old he's better off staying in and concentrating on his football rather than going out on the lash and 9 out of 10 times you'll get the same answer.  But, it's that 1 player out of the 10 that makes it all worth while, you can bet your life Stevie G didn't go out on the lash at 19 and now he's reaping the rewards but, at 18 or 19 those rewards seem along way-a-way

[Pr0n]

The major difference today and then is the level of the players in the academy and the reserves. We continue to buy talent and as a result the overall level of our reserves and academy is much higher now than anytime during the last 10 years at least. Ofc the reserve-league is still the reserve league, and it's not there that anyone takes the step up - BUT, with the added competition it takes more to stand out.. And the results of the ressies reflect that, as we've mainly relied on very young players in the reserves. I think the fact that Danny Guthrie plays for Bolton now, despite not being the most hyped of the youngsters lately, is showing something.. Namely that the hyped player does'nt necessarily have to be the one that succeeds and that the level is improving. Of course, it's also about circumstance. F.i. Plessis might be very talented but may find it very hard to get enough playing time, whereas Insua has an opportunity now, if he puts in the right performances..

[SadRed]

When you compare some of those players with those we have now, there is a distinct difference in technical ability.

Partridge, Otsemoboor, Wright and Mellor were good lads that evryone really wanted to do well.
Compare the level of technical ability with the likes of Nemeth, Insua, Bruna and Pacheco, I think there is a clear difference.

I would say, the first 4 are more akin to Spearing, Darby, Brouwer and Putterill, who as much as I would like to see do well, I don't think they have the promise that the 4 imports have.

Spot on.

[YorkieT]

Partridge was just unlucky I think. Unlucky to do his cruciate twice, and unlucky to be coming through while we had a manager who so distrusted speed and skill over brawn that during an injury crisis he played Biscan on the right of midfield ahead of him.

Wenger had a quote a couple of years ago that the window to introduce a youth team player is short. They need to get to a level capable of being a success, and if they're not introduced once they get to this stage they quickly become disillusioned and start to go backwards.

I don't know what the team will be like against Spurs, but I've been kind of disappointed that we haven't blooded more of the reserve team over the past 2-3 games. I fail to see any merit in playing Voronin when we know he's not good enough, but we don't know whether the likes of Nemeth are. Yeah they may not really shine over one or two matches, but it should give them huge encouragement to keep improving next season, rather than spending the summer wondering if they'll ever get a chance.

[nidgemo]

In this day and age of instant success, there is little or no time for the Big 4 clubs to blood young players.

Who in the last 5 or so years has made the step up from youth/reserve level to established squad/regular in any of the Big 4 teams?

Fabregas?

[nidgemo]

The major difference today and then is the level of the players in the academy and the reserves. We continue to buy talent and as a result the overall level of our reserves and academy is much higher now than anytime during the last 10 years at least. Ofc the reserve-league is still the reserve league, and it's not there that anyone takes the step up - BUT, with the added competition it takes more to stand out.. And the results of the ressies reflect that, as we've mainly relied on very young players in the reserves. I think the fact that Danny Guthrie plays for Bolton now, despite not being the most hyped of the youngsters lately, is showing something.. Namely that the hyped player does'nt necessarily have to be the one that succeeds and that the level is improving. Of course, it's also about circumstance. F.i. Plessis might be very talented but may find it very hard to get enough playing time, whereas Insua has an opportunity now, if he puts in the right performances..

Partridge was just unlucky I think. Unlucky to do his cruciate twice, and unlucky to be coming through while we had a manager who so distrusted speed and skill over brawn that during an injury crisis he played Biscan on the right of midfield ahead of him.

Wenger had a quote a couple of years ago that the window to introduce a youth team player is short. They need to get to a level capable of being a success, and if they're not introduced once they get to this stage they quickly become disillusioned and start to go backwards.

I don't know what the team will be like against Spurs, but I've been kind of disappointed that we haven't blooded more of the reserve team over the past 2-3 games. I fail to see any merit in playing Voronin when we know he's not good enough, but we don't know whether the likes of Nemeth are. Yeah they may not really shine over one or two matches, but it should give them huge encouragement to keep improving next season, rather than spending the summer wondering if they'll ever get a chance.

Two very good posts.

[Meako1977]

When you compare some of those players with those we have now, there is a distinct difference in technical ability.

Partridge, Otsemoboor, Wright and Mellor were good lads that evryone really wanted to do well.
Compare the level of technical ability with the likes of Nemeth, Insua, Bruna and Pacheco, I think there is a clear difference.

I would say, the first 4 are more akin to Spearing, Darby, Brouwer and Putterill, who as much as I would like to see do well, I don't think they have the promise that the 4 imports have.

Prime example of the above is the last couple of Youth cup wins. Not to take anything away from the lads but they won it on team work and overcame a number of teams who where techinically more gifted. Only problem with this is that the hardwork can only take you so far and then you need to have that ability to take the next step up.

The foreign lads all have that technical ability and we just need to instill the hardwork into them. Unfortunately the local lads tend to have loads of heart and willing to sweat buckets for the team but dont have the quality. Reflection of modern day English coaching compared to the continent. It worked twenty years ago when English clubs where based around hardwork and graft but not so useful now that there is a greater need for technique in the players.

[jiky]

their english styled players that have not much chance to compete because of the nurtured ,technical deficiencies. Put any young athlete in an Italian,S.american environment during their young development and your likely to increase their levels. Ive watched  the reserves games and is all hustle,hoof and hope and alot os neat sq.passing in the middle 3rd. very team orientated but no established sense of creativity and expression On THe Ball. Players,it seems ,are alienated by the crowd,coaches and players if they "try" to drible with the ball  .  That alone stagnates the ability to feel comfortable when playing and open the senses to other peripheral doings.

[Pr0n]

Another thing.. with the youth of today is that there are really many of the youngsters who one could tip for success. Plessis, Nemeth and Insua are obvious ones ATM, but there are also many players who are not far behind in terms of development and have a huge potential.

[Meako1977]

their english styled players that have not much chance to compete because of the nurtured ,technical deficiencies. Put any young athlete in an Italian,S.american environment during their young development and your likely to increase their levels. Ive watched  the reserves games and is all hustle,hoof and hope and alot os neat sq.passing in the middle 3rd. very team orientated but no established sense of creativity and expression On THe Ball. Players,it seems ,are alienated by the crowd,coaches and players if they "try" to drible with the ball  .  That alone stagnates the ability to feel comfortable when playing and open the senses to other peripheral doings.

The problem is the mentality of the coaching at the current level. We should be taking kids from as young as 6 and instilling into them the need to use the ball and have confidence in their own ball skills rather than running around like a headless chicken and using their power to overcome opponents. The only thing that kids that age should be worried about is playing and enjoying the game rather than who won and who scored the most goals.

[Gus 1855]

their english styled players that have not much chance to compete because of the nurtured ,technical deficiencies. Put any young athlete in an Italian,S.american environment during their young development and your likely to increase their levels. Ive watched  the reserves games and is all hustle,hoof and hope and alot os neat sq.passing in the middle 3rd. very team orientated but no established sense of creativity and expression On THe Ball. Players,it seems ,are alienated by the crowd,coaches and players if they "try" to drible with the ball  .  That alone stagnates the ability to feel comfortable when playing and open the senses to other peripheral doings.

I am not confident about my interpretation of what you have said there, but I am assuming you are saying the reserves this year has been a lot of hoofing.

Far far from an accurate picture in my mind. With Nemeth, Flynn, Bruna, Pacheco, Insua and El Zhar, we have players who are very good on the ball and often play neat passes, and Nemeth in particular he has a great eye for the Luis-esque ball.

[jason23]

Brown, Fletcher, Clichy, Fabregas etc.

Fabregas?

I was thinking more along the lines of players who have come through the youth set up at a club.
Fabregas and Clichy were bought into Arsenal.
Brown has been around a long time and Fletcher is not exactly a major talent is he.

[RED-EAZY]

zak whitebread was watching the CL final in the new yorker on allerton road (think it was the new yorker v drunk i was) smokong away, i was thinking wonder if he regrets anything or wishes he was there, promosing young lad but dont think he would of got into our first team any way

[fry]

The problem is the mentality of the coaching at the current level. We should be taking kids from as young as 6 and instilling into them the need to use the ball and have confidence in their own ball skills rather than running around like a headless chicken and using their power to overcome opponents. The only thing that kids that age should be worried about is playing and enjoying the game rather than who won and who scored the most goals.

I agree, i was in Barcelona last summer, was flicking through the telly stations and seen a barcelona match, kids about 12 or so on telly playing pretty good football, we should have that here,

[Jason McG]

Agree with Gus and a few others, out of the list Nidgemo put up, I didn't see any making it as the next big thing. The big players usually stand out from their peers massively and none of those did. Owen in '96 was a good example, absolutely tits above the next best (which weren't bad).

I'm hopeful that one or two of this crop can make it but not confident. I think our chances are improved now that Rafa has complete control.

[markay_stinkay]

I was thinking more along the lines of players who have come through the youth set up at a club.
Fabregas and Clichy were bought into Arsenal.
Brown has been around a long time and Fletcher is not exactly a major talent is he.

You provided a fairly large criteria to choose from tbf.

In this day and age of instant success, there is little or no time for the Big 4 clubs to blood young players.

Who in the last 5 or so years has made the step up from youth/reserve level to established squad/regular in any of the Big 4 teams?

Fabregas & Clichy - Youth/reserve level, regular
Brown & Fletcher - Youth/reserve level, established

[Mark Walters]

This is one of the reasons I don't understand why Insua, Nemeth and Plessis are so hyped up.  Most of the players mentioned in the original post were given opportunities in the first team, just as Plessis and Insua have so far.

The call for Nemeth and Insua to start games seems a little premature to me.

[kara]

body / skills / ability is core .... and mental is something they have to overcome .... i.e  the game pressure, the money the earn, and live under the media are all they have to face ....

[nidgemo]

This is one of the reasons I don't understand why Insua, Nemeth and Plessis are so hyped up.  Most of the players mentioned in the original post were given opportunities in the first team, just as Plessis and Insua have so far.

The call for Nemeth and Insua to start games seems a little premature to me.

Indeed - there have been many players who have, as Plessis, Insua and Nemeth are doing, acheived much at ressie level - Welsh was also England U-23 captain and IIRC Partridge was capped as a full international - but gone on to be nothing more than lower league players - and not even standout ones.

I hope some of the current crop come through, but in reality, who knows - I just wanted to post this as something to provoke an interesting discussion without mentioning the words Hicks / Gillet / Parry / transfer window etc - which I think it has

[Crazynumber9]

It DOES make you question the ability of our coaches and scouts, I must say.
The likes of Owen and Gerrard would have come through at any club, such is their talent and natural ability.

That goes for most of the extremely talented players, the likes of Gerrard, Rooney, Joe Cole would have stood out anywhere. But it still takes good coaches to groom them

[Garstonite]

Know exactly what you mean and it's what makes me take all the talk of Insua, Plessis and Nemeth with a pinch of salt.

Incidentally, who remembers Houllier saying Welsh would be guaranteed at least twenty starts, or something along those lines?

[Crazynumber9]

Know exactly what you mean and it's what makes me take all the talk of Insua, Plessis and Nemeth with a pinch of salt.

Incidentally, who remembers Houllier saying Welsh would be guaranteed at least twenty starts, or something along those lines?

Lets just say GED wasn't the best when it came to picking young talent