Topic: Areas to improve - NOT excuses!

[Gee, Stevie]

We need to stop making & looking for excuses and start being honest & identify the areas of our game / sqaud that need improving if we are to win no. 19 before the bloody Mancs do.

Just this season - using some big games as examples... We had around half an hour to score after Chelsea were awarded a lucky penalty and equlised at Anfield.  We were behind 1-0 and hadn't really looked anything like scoring when Masch was sent off against the Mancs on sunday. 

The more I hear from Rafa and Masch about the incident leading to Masch's 2nd yellow, the more annoyed I get.  But I get even more worked up when fans blame the loss on Bennett (or the draw against Chelsea on Styles, I think it was).

Over the 90 mins (or 45 before masch was sent off!!!), over two games (home & away), over 38 games in a season, you have plenty of time to create enough chances, put the ball in the back of the net enough times, to win the league.  There are no excuses.  None.

Shit happens.  In recent times against the Mancs, its been too much shit far too often.  But feck, we have absolutely no one else to blame.  We haven't been good enough.  In the last few seasons against them we've been absolute shite, especially at Old Trafford.  Sunday was no exception.  Maybe thats a little harsh, but after so much shite, the frustration is understandable.  The piss-poor excuses about the ref is the talk of losers.  Losers.

We need the winning mentality.  We don't loose many games.  That part of our game is fine.  But we don't win enough.  Doesn't matter who, what, when, how, why...whatever the circumstances, champions will win more often than not... more often than we do at the moment.

Just to clarify, here are my views on a few things:

- I love Rafa, am thankful he's our manager and hope he stays at LFC for the next 5 years at least.

- Our squad is greatley improved and we're getting close to the quality needed to win the league.  But we're not there yet.

- If we get say 2 or 3 top quality players into our best squad (18 with new rules next season), and lose the worst 2 or 3 players out of that squad, we're alost there.  Better wingers & fullbacks needed.

- I LOVE masch!!!  But when you're away to the Mancs, already on a yellow & your team-mate has just been given a yellow card for dissent (even if you don't know why) you don't even look at the ref the wrong way.  Its not the refs fault, its our own fault.  The players.

- If you think our squad is as good as the Manc's at the moment, you're flat out wrong.  The league table doesn't lie - an oldy but a fucking goody, the best one around.  Feel the pain & fucking use it to drive you next season!!!

[Rotation]

well put...cept bennet and styles are still fuckin c*nts

[Gee, Stevie]

well put...cept bennet and styles are still fuckin c*nts

Agree.  But how about you go into every game knowing all refs are c*nts... then just get on with it.

Sometimes its almost impossible to not say anything.  On sunday the ref awarded a handball against me when I simple chested the ball down.  It hit me exactly on the nipple (I know because these shirts were chaffing me!) and came down without touching another part of my body.  I found it impossible not to say anything to the ref.  And after his response (something like - "be quiet mate, it clearly hit your hand") infuriated me, I kept going at him (not all up in his grill like Masch tho) and got a yellow.  Interestingly, I didn't say another word to the ref the rest of the game, even after I first got stomped on whilst clearing a corner (no foul), got the shit kicked out of my calf whilst trying to hold up play with my back to goal (massive bruise, quite saw, no foul) & then had my legs swept from under me for what I thought was a clear penalty (no foul, ref told me I went to ground too easily, I was off balance).

Point is, I know ref's are c*nts.  But when you're on a yellow & the refs giving cards out for dissent, shut the feck up.

[Endoe]

Well put.

Two wingers/ forwards
One attacking fullback.

[Juan Loco]

How do you gain a winning mentality over night though?

We've got a manager that's won a European Cup, a UEFA Cup, the best league in the world twice and an FA Cup.

We've got a collection of individuals who've been to two champions league finals in 3 years. None of whom seem to have the slightest problem going to the San Siro, Della Alpi or Nou Camp and getting a result.

We've got a handful of players who've won everything but the league...


What is the X-factor that's missing exactly?

For me personally there's a huge lack of players in our team that have actually won a league. Mascherano has, but on a different continent. Riise has, but he was hardly a leader in that Monaco team. Oh, and Agger won it as a youngster. In Denmark.

Not exactly a wealth of experience there, is it? It's a long stretch from the days of having Hamann, Babbel, Litmanen and Gary Mac in the squad. Or indeed from having even Morientes, Zenden and Pellegrino, who had atleast had the experience of it, even if they weren't exactly great when we had them.

God how I wish Figo ('swife) had chose different a couple of years ago.

[woof]

The winning mentality will come from winning games at ease (I hate to say it) just like Mancs. The way they play, anyone can step up and score goals. For us, there's only 2 sources - Gerrard and Torres. Stop them and it's almost guaranteed that the goals will dry up. The way Rafa sets up the team is that everyone has a fixed role. That's good in cup competitions where the margin for error is very small so you get everyone to focus on what they do best. However, over the length of the entire season, I can't see us winning the League unless we change the way we play.

Although it's just one game against the Mancs, we need to win the 'winnable' games against everyone bar the top 3. If we can draw away and win the games at home, I'm certain we could be winning the league.

Rafa, to me, is the best option that we have although I'd only give him till the end of his contract to prove his worth to the club. We need to improve. Maybe he needs an assistant to help him win the league matches. We have a good core team and it's a matter of tweaking the team now

[Daranoza]

We need a decent winger. I think this has been the case for a few years, now. Benayoun, Pennant, alright for squad players but we need better than that.

There are a few that you could say the same about!

Another area to improve, as mentioned above indeed, is focus and mentality. Big game confidence seems to be an issue in the league, at least. Pepe looked to be terrified at some points and that is not like him. He does not seem to lose his bottle easily but there were times, on Sunday, where he looked like a deer caught in headlights. Couple of blinding saves, though, I will give him that.

Bottle. Confidence. That is something that cannot be bought, though, with all the money in the world. Perhaps they all need a sports psychologist, something to help them get over this mental barrier they have. We can look fantastic against Chelsea, winners of previous titles, so why not the Mancs? Is it a case of local rivalry taken to an extreme? I cannot put my finger on what it is but every time we play them we never look likely, yet Wes F**king Brown can score against us!  How can that be, when we can outplay Barcelona and beat Italy's "finest"? Is it that Man United have some kind of voodoo over us?

That, to me, is nothing but a psychological problem.

First, the squad needs fixing. Certain areas need strengthening, bringing up to scratch. Then, work can be done on the mental aspects.

[Euroking]

I think Gerrard as captain should have seen that Masch was a potental second yellow and have spoken to him. Even when Il Nino was booked for asking a question, Gerrard was nowhere to be seen. Alonso's effort to calm Masch was only a token effort. Some refs. you can interact with but knowing who you can and CANT, is part of the game. All Torres did was ask a question and thats a booking?

[Red number seven]

I think Gerrard as captain should have seen that Masch was a potental second yellow and have spoken to him.

Or perhaps Gerrard as Captain, England star and FA darling should use his influence with refs a bit more and not leave all the talking to Mascherano, who is young, foreign and an easy target. Perhaps Stevie should've approached the ref himself.

Not a criticism of Stevie as a player, because I think he's utterly top drawer in about 5 positions. Just wonder whether he ought to have a little more of the Terry/Keane snarl about him when it comes to some of the darker arts required to being competitive with the likes of United and Chelsea. In fact, I wonder if as a club, we are Corinthian to the point of naivety on some of this stuff.

Ask yourself this...Had Nando stayed down in feigned agony (as, say, Ronaldo, Drogba, etc would have) and 3 or 4 players surrounded the ref, including our marquee media loved skipper, would the resulting disciplinary sanction have gone the same way?

I hate the fact I'm saying this, and not sure I want us to be like that, but it is a question worth asking - is it true we play reasonably fairly and leave refs to do their job when the other big clubs patently gain advantage by doing the opposite? If so, are we right to take the high road, or just stupid in extremely professional sport? Is badgering and conning refs part of what a 'winning mentality' is, is it part of what we lack as much as a winger or a right back?

[gearoid]

I think Gerrard as captain should have seen that Masch was a potental second yellow and have spoken to him. Even when Il Nino was booked for asking a question, Gerrard was nowhere to be seen. Alonso's effort to calm Masch was only a token effort. Some refs. you can interact with but knowing who you can and CANT, is part of the game. All Torres did was ask a question and thats a booking?

I agree stronlgy woth you. I thought he was anonymouse throughout the game.! He should have been taking mash to one side after the first booking! not after he has been sent off. True mash should have better self control but as a captain i think steveie has a responsability

[xerxes]

Area to improve : dugout, specifically the seat with Rafa on it.

[minusone]

I agree almost 100% with everything you say.

- I love Rafa, am thankful he's our manager and hope he stays at LFC for the next 5 years at least.

Agreed.

- Our squad is greatley improved and we're getting close to the quality needed to win the league.  But we're not there yet.

Agreed.

- If we get say 2 or 3 top quality players into our best squad (18 with new rules next season), and lose the worst 2 or 3 players out of that squad, we're alost there.  Better wingers & fullbacks needed.

Agreed. Personally i'd like to see Voronin, Riise, and maybe one of the young kids who hasn't pushed on into the first team leave, but only if they are replaced by something in the 10 million plus category, preferably 15+.

- I LOVE masch!!!  But when you're away to the Mancs, already on a yellow & your team-mate has just been given a yellow card for dissent (even if you don't know why) you don't even look at the ref the wrong way.  Its not the refs fault, its our own fault.  The players.

Semi agree. I was wishing he would shut the fuck up, but in saying that, the ref was a fucking idiot. Shit performance by him and he should be punished for the amount of crap he let the Mancs get away with. He laid down a marker with the cards for Masch's first tackle, and Torres mouthing... and then completely pussed out everytime one of the Mancs crossed the same lines. Still livlid over it all.

- If you think our squad is as good as the Manc's at the moment, you're flat out wrong.  The league table doesn't lie - an oldy but a fucking goody, the best one around.  Feel the pain & fucking use it to drive you next season!!!

Semi agree. I think we are very close to them, with the exception of maybe one or two players in the starting 11. I think it's a mentality thing as when we play we play well, but we do need the first goal early or we start to look devoid of ideas and play within ourselves.

My biggest beef is us not taking the chances to kill the game when we have them, and not attacking opponents enough. Go for the throat and let Torres, Babel, Benayoun, Pennant and Gerrard just fucking run at the opposition. Play the football we are capable of playing.

[Voltaire]

You could say we have not got one natural performer along the flanks playing well.

Left back, right back, left wing and right wing are all areas of concern. There are lots of clubs outside the top four who match the quality we have in those positions; that, my dear, is a recipe for not challenging.

[abhred]

2 things

1. Our spine is as good as anyone in Europe. When they all perform, we can beat anyone. In his first 4 years, Rafa has built a spine, that will be ours for several years to come. His job next is to bring quality players around them, and also build a stronger squad (you DO need a squad).

2. Mentality to win the league. That's why we need someone who has won the league already. Someone like Henry, who's been there, done that. Our players are scared to challenge for the title.

[Mark Walters]

We win more often than not.  Look at the "win" column and add the amounts in the "draw" and "lost" column and you'll see!

[KFC]

1. Motivation to our players and make them believe that they can beat anybody, or give somebody a hard-beating when they feels like it.

2. Forget about sportsmanship.  Stop being the nice-guys anymore and make the lives of the opponents / referees / media a nightmare by exploiting the rules of the game and install a 'win at all cost' attitude, even with diving, play-acting, etc.  Eye-for-an-eye for the cheap dirty bastards.

[ish]

You could say we have not got one natural performer along the flanks playing well.

Left back, right back, left wing and right wing are all areas of concern. There are lots of clubs outside the top four who match the quality we have in those positions; that, my dear, is a recipe for not challenging.

I'm happy with Arbeloa and Finnan rotating at right-back. Agree about the rest of those positions, unless Pennant gets to play more and show what he's made of.

Also think we need another striker.

[ouestlereferee]

Improving the offensive set-piece would be the easiest, cheapest, and most immediate thing, IMHO.

[Carra23]

A Left back, 2 wingers and a partner for Torres would be enough to turn a lot of those draws into wins.

We are close, but not close enough and it will depend on how much is available in the summer to see if we can get those final few pieces of the infamous jigsaw.

[mariov77]

Mate well said. I totally agree with you and it is amazing that some called "fans" have not crucified you for your comments. We are getting better and better but we are still not close to ManUtd. 

We need more depth on our squad. Blaming the ref is a poor excuse as we had 2 red cards against Inter that were very soft which is the beauty of football..

We need more time and more money. But as well we need better performances from the players as well as 3/4 of the squad did not show up on Sunday.

The future is bright thats for sure...

We need some new full backs and wingers. One more striker (Sell Kuyt , Voronin and maybe Crouchie)

[gearoid]

What worried me most is how many times that carra was caught out with the logn ball over the top!

[rednich85]

What struck me most against the Mancs was how different our mentality was.

They were aggressive, they channelled it well. Bullied is probably not the right way to put it but there was a definate difference in attitude.

I'm not sure I've pinned it down but they are definately a lot more aggressive than we are and it makes a difference

[LFC_4_life]

We need to improve our defence. We need some  pace in  our defence. Rooney got through way too many times.

We need full backs with pace who can bring the ball forward and add to our attack.

We also need to improve the right side. Kuyt is just not up to task. He doesn't have the pace.

Without sounding too redundant, we don't have enough pace in our side.

[mariov77]

Yeah they were more confident than us.

As well pls dont take me wrong they are fighting for the title and in a way we are not. So they had much more in stack than us.. But pride should be first as we are LFC and the players should have been much better. I dont even think the Mancs excepted that kind of attitude from us.

[The Flying Pig]

A Left back, 2 wingers and a partner for Torres would be enough to turn a lot of those draws into wins.

We are close, but not close enough and it will depend on how much is available in the summer to see if we can get those final few pieces of the infamous jigsaw.

Spot on there,Carra!

These positions are seriously in need of strengthening,teams below us in the table are stronger in these positions than we are.

IF money is available for transfers in the summer (and is not used to pay off some of the yanks' debt) these are the positions where top class players must be bought.

[tim5303]

The problem with Sunday was we didn't look like we even cared about losing. I would have expected Gerrard and Carragher to be ranting at their team mates to get them up for the game.

Everyone on the team failed to play to their ability or even like they have for the last few weeks.

In the summer I would like to see a couple of wingers, especially a right wing. I would also like to see a trimming of the squad, we have far to many to keep happy, a few youngsters in and a team that plays together regularly will see us being more consistent

[GBF]

Areas to improve:

 - to have a mobile defense
 - to have a midfield that spend a bit more time in the opposition half and in the opposition box
 - to have more than one striker/forward
 - to have kuyt far far away from the team

[LFCfan4Life]

Areas to improve:

Grow some balls fight your corner get in the oppositions face etc

everyone else does it no discussions about it being right or wrong but they stick together fight together and ultimately win together

We dont do half as much as the other top 4 chelsea, arsenal and man utd will run 70 yards to get in another players face after a bad tackle etc where some of our players wont even run 5

[Throxenby]

too many questions to answer.
we need wingers according to people on here. well would bene even play them if he bought them ?
we need full backs, well if the wingers were employed and used would we have the total need for attacking full backs (sure they'd help but that area of the pitch would already be getting exploited)
we dont have the right mentality, well all week we heard about a cehtral defender that has a back problem, yet we never tried roughing him up. was doubtful to play (as at least one big player is according to slurp alex before big games) yet lo and behold he was fukin in. (am only surprised neville didnt make his comeback sunday) slurp alex always (yes fukin always) has em up for this, i know ive mentioned this before but yer only need to see them all stood in the tunnel before coming out, fukin nothing else on earth matters to them. us well bene likes the focused knowing the job approach, but how can slurp alex getting them slavering but still gets a focused job from them. did yer see giggs telling one of theirs to shut up ? as for tactical well bene might be this tactical genius, but slurp alex always does him over. the only game we have won was (yep yer guessed it) a cup game. as someone on another thread said even if bene doesnt have an inferiority complex, our players do have. the setup of our team against these is negative, and and such we get what we deserve.

[Throxenby]

Areas to improve:

Grow some balls fight your corner get in the oppositions face etc

everyone else does it no discussions about it being right or wrong but they stick together fight together and ultimately win together

We dont do half as much as the other top 4 chelsea, arsenal and man utd will run 70 yards to get in another players face after a bad tackle etc where some of our players wont even run

[James B]

I think if we're to win the Premiership, we need to buy a few more players, I don't think some of them are up to the task.

[Libero]

2 things

1. Our spine is as good as anyone in Europe. When they all perform, we can beat anyone. In his first 4 years, Rafa has built a spine, that will be ours for several years to come. His job next is to bring quality players around them, and also build a stronger squad (you DO need a squad).

2. Mentality to win the league. That's why we need someone who has won the league already. Someone like Henry, who's been there, done that. Our players are scared to challenge for the title.

Fair points.

However, on sunday, 4 out of 5 of our spine-players did not perform. 

Reina - good in parts, but Goalkeepers can't make big mistakes and get away with it.

Carragher - was poor.

Mascherano - fair or unfair, if you know you're dealing with evil, don't play into their hands - so he was poor.

Gerrard - he was poor.

That's 4 out 5 of our top players being poor on the day.  I expect them (less Masch) to be back on top form against the bitters though.

Usually, our top players tend to carry our average ones, but against the mancs, we didn't have anything on the bench to replace top players who had an off day. 

United bring on Nani (£17m) and Tevez (circa £32m), and we bring on Yossi and Riise (combined cost £9m).  There's a gulf of class that only REAL funds can address.

[LFC_4_life]

United bring on Nani (£17m) and Tevez (circa £32m), and we bring on Yossi and Riise (combined cost £9m).  There's a gulf of class that only REAL funds can address.

Arsenal proves that theory wrong. Arsenal are a title contending team who have spent very little money compared to United, Chelsea and even us.

This issue is that Rafa is picking out too many flops. Obviously, money helps though.

[Throxenby]

Arsenal proves that theory wrong. Arsenal are a title contending team who have spent very little money compared to United, Chelsea and even us.

This issue is that Rafa is picking out too many flops. Obviously, money helps though.

gotta disagree. sure arse aint spent the funds (and hindsight is a wonderful thing) but in reality arses lack of current form is only down to them not nicking games in the last few minutes like earlier on in the season. thought they got lucky on loads of occasions whereas now they aint happening.

[Libero]

Arsenal proves that theory wrong. Arsenal are a title contending team who have spent very little money compared to United, Chelsea and even us.

This issue is that Rafa is picking out too many flops.

Not really. The Arsenal comparison doesn't really stand up.

Wolcott, Hleb, Edwardo, Sagna - are just some examples of guys that are  not cheap!.

Moreover, Arsenal's board, and most of their fans are happy with the development period (i.e. bring on "youth") and accept that there's no trophies to look forward to just yet - 4 years since their last one by the way.

Arsenal's youth / scouting department is damned expensive and is years ahead of what Rafa is trying to implement here.

I don't consider Yossi to be a flop at all, and he didn't sign Riise - although he did sign Voronin.

Still, Voronin (bosman) versus D Bent (£16.8m)
4 goals in 21 apps (4th choice striker)
7 goals in 29 apps  (£16m striker)

[mariov77]

[quote author=Libero link=topic=215619.msg4069746#msg4069746 date=1206450111

Still, Voronin (bosman) versus D Bent (£16.8m)
4 goals in 21 apps (4th choice striker)
7 goals in 29 apps  (£16m striker)


[/quote]


Both are flops .. But our flop was free.

[Redcap]

I think what we have to improve more than anything else is set pieces. We're useless at taking them, and we're dire at defending them. Sort this one out and we'd get a good 5-6 extra goals a season and concede a good 5-6 less.

As for transfers.. we need another match winner on our right or left. That's it. We should be looking to dump everything we have on one absolutely Torres-class attacking midfielder/winger to take the left or right of the three (with Babel on the other side). After that, we're solid. I think next season we'll see Agger and Skrtel playing a lot more games together as Carra plays less. Insua, hopefully, will get a few more games at left back. Other positions I'm very comfortable with.

So for me, it's just a question of sorting out the set pieces and getting in one more top class attacking midfielder. We're not too far away.

.. one other concern though is that of the Torres position. Right now, we have only one player like him. Never mind a forward of his class, we don't even have another forward of his 'type'. If he gets injured, we could be forced to play a whole different system. So if we have any money leftover, I think it might be a good idea to bring in a decent pacey finisher.

Ideally, it'd be good if our future attacking midfielder and our future forward could be the same player- i.e. someone with the versatility to play both out wide and up front. Who's up for a cheeky bid for Henry?

[the jesus]

Still, Voronin (bosman) versus D Bent (£16.8m)
4 goals in 21 apps (4th choice striker)
7 goals in 29 apps  (£16m striker)

Both are flops .. But our flop was free.

Isn't it just a bit early to call Vorinin a flop, half a season in the Prem is not along time to adapt.

Will he be good enough ?...i have severe doubts, should he be given a chance ? yes.

[mariov77]

Will he be good enough ?...i have severe doubts, should he be given a chance ? yes.

No

[gadair]

we need a lightning quick winger were kuyt was playin on sunday one who can take people on an not lose the ball.or pass it back all the time we need a bit ove go in us start to run at the defence instead of passing it round them. it just gives us more options