Author Topic: Standing / Stewards / FLA  (Read 11939 times)

Offline BHB

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Standing / Stewards / FLA
« on: March 20, 2008, 10:40:55 pm »
"The atmosphere inside Anfield is absolutely electric tonight. Magnificent support, roaring on their side and frightening the life out of the opposition, a real 12th man"

You then have the players, the manager and the chairmen coming out in the aftermath with things like, "The supporters were fantastic tonight and made a real difference to the team" and "That's why our fans are the best in the world" and other such clichés.

Then in the aftermath of a subdued league game, the argument usually rears it's head surrounding the atmosphere not being as good as it was now the seats have gone in. To which the media and the like respond with, "Anfield was as loud as it's ever been the other night, and that is now an all seater stadium" - but never mentioning the fact that over 20,000 fans inside the ground on that night had stood for 90 minutes. It is constantly unreported and unnoticed in the media.

The clubs and the authorities love to use images of fans with flags, scarves and colour to promote their "brand". They use "the 12th man" labels to praise the fans and continue to state how much they help the side. But....

Then you get the other side of the coin, the prime example recently being the United fans criticised by Alex Ferguson for being quite in a run of the mill league game at Old Trafford. For those that don't know, United have a section in the Upper Stretford End that stand for 90 minutes, week in, week out. Around 4,000 of them up there. A hell of a lot more stand all game for the big games. And when Ferguson criticised the atmosphere, he was told why - due to the over aggressive stewarding and "police state" in forcing fans to sit for the lesser games.

Ferguson praised the away support United have then compared it to their home support. Not once did he mention their away support stood for 90 minutes at every game.

There seems to be a complete media ban on any reporting or a promotion of standing to support you team. It's censored. It must be, or are those people in the media and public eye completely oblivious to what goes on in the stands?

Maybe they should try and stand with us one game? Come to the back of the Kop and in amongst us. Witness first hand how we try to support the side, all stood behind our allocated seats and trying to prevent Anfield from becoming a morgue. As with everyone sat down in their seats like good little boys and girls, that's exactly what you'll get. They only seem to want our support when it suits them. They'd soon be up in arms if we all sat down in silence on a big European night when our support was needed more than ever. Or how about if we'd all sat down in the Ataturk and watched the second half in silence. Do you really think we'd have won that European Cup without our entire support standing and getting behind the side like we did? No chance.

In pretty much every ground in the country, apart from maybe Goodison and one or two others without a standing culture, there are large sections of home fans standing for 90 minutes, week in, week out. You then have the majority of away followings that stand for 90 minutes. West Ham have around 8000 standing every week, Tottenham around 7000, Arsenal about 2000, Man City around 4000, United around 4000, Chelsea around 1000, Newcastle around 800 - and the list goes on. We have 12,500 standing for our big games and European nights, yet when around 500 or so of us try and stand for bog standard league games at the back of the Kop, and try to create a bit of atmosphere, we're clamped down on and told to sit. It's pathetic.

I've been involved in a hell of a lot of research into the standing issue recently. And the more you look into it, the more and more the legislation in place looks like complete unsubstantiated nonsense. Legislation that is enforced by the Football Licensing Authority (FLA), working with the local councils responsible for the safety certificate for each football ground within their borough, who in turn pressurise those clubs to enforce the FLA legislation.

"Persistent standing is not allowed" - can somebody please define persistent standing? Is it for 2 minutes? 20 minutes? 2 hours? If I stand for 20 minutes then sit down for 5 seconds, is that still persistent standing, as I've broke up that period of standing?

"Standing is acceptable during moments of excitement" - what exactly is a "moment of excitement? A goal? A free kick on the edge of the box? A corner? I was asked to sit down the other week when we had a free kick on the edge of the box, if that's not a goal scoring opportunity and a "moment of excitement", then what is? The whole game is a "moment of excitement" to me. I wait all week for the game, and the entire 90 minutes are exciting. Who can tell me otherwise and stand up in court and prove it is not?

Trafford Borough Council contacted Manchester United a few years ago, stating that they were in breech of their ground regulations and safety certificate, as they had fans persistently standing in the upper Stretford End. They issued the club with a threat to revoke their safety certificate and close the stand in question. United then said "see you in court".

In order for a stand to be closed, or any action of that kind to take place, the authorities must prove in court that the action being taken is in proportion to the risks involved. Something they will never be able to do. Fans have been standing persistently in all seater grounds for years, with constant threats of stand closures. Nobody has been injured and there is not one single piece of evidence to suggest standing it more dangerous than sitting. No way to prove that the proposed closure of the stand is in proportion to the risks. There are no evidence of risks to present! Not one threat of closure has been enforced yet, and never will be. Some clubs seem to ignore the guidelines and allow their fans to stand, see the numbers standing in the paragraphs above. Other clubs pick and chose when they want their fans to stand. Every club could ignore the FLA and local council. Their legislation holds no weight or substance. It's almost make believe.

Man City's safety manager - their Ged Poynton if you like - made a statement last summer, that the club have created a singing section in the lower tier next to the away fans, and he will NOT be asking stewards to enforce them to sit. They'll be left alone to stand, as there is no safety risk with standing in lower tiers. He is 100% correct. And every game this season, City fans have stood all game, every game with no hassle from stewards. There has been no closure of the stand or threat of that from the FLA. They know they can't win. If only every club had a stadium manager like the one at Man City.

United commissioned a report into standing within their ground on the back of the threats they received from Trafford Borough Council. An independent safety "risk assessment" into the dangers of standing in their stadium. The report found that standing when entering the ground, up and down the aisles to the concourse at half time and full time, and during goal celebrations and moments of excitement - were all far more "dangerous" and likely to cause injury than standing during passive play behind an allocated seat. The FLA state the opposite within their legislation. As unless they escorted every fan to their seats individually from the turnstile, and installed seat belts on each seat - it's impossible to enforce. The standing during play issue is something they can target. It all starts to become that little bit more clear...

Trafford Borough Council and the FLA were presented with this report and it's findings as part of United's evidence to present as their defence in court. Trafford Borough Council and the FLA dropped the case and the report has been swept under the carpet. Read into that what you will.

The clubs and the authorities need to make up their minds - do they want fans to be vocal and passionate in their stadiums? Or do they want us all sat there in silence? Which image better promotes their brand? I think we all know.

This is not the 80's anymore. There are not crumbling terraces with fans caged in by fences. There are not pay on the gate turnstiles with no restriction on how many fans are on that terrace, other than closing the gates when "it looks full to me". Football today is on a completely different level. There are no fences, there are no cages. There are strict ticket inspection procedures in place. Numbers of fans in each section of the ground carefully controlled with strict ticketing procedures. It's not even close to being like it was back then. And certainly nothing to do with standing that would result in fans being at risk. Crowd control techniques and the facilities are now on a completely different level. Technology and the game has moved on - it's about time the FLA did the same.

One read through the FLA's legislation and guidelines around standing is enough to make you shake your head constantly for the hour or so you'll be reading it. It's about time this legislation was given a wider audience and debated in public. As at the minute, nobody is allowed to challenge the FLA's stance. It's a closed shop. That has to change.

There is no evidence whatsoever that standing is a safety risk. The FLA have been asked to provide it. They never have. Lord Justice Taylor conducted an in depth investigation into Hillsborough and concluded that "standing is not unsafe" and no blame for Hillsborough can lie at the feet of standing to watch a football match.

Then we come to the most ridiculous part of the legislation. The ruling that states we cannot stand in The Premier League, The Championship or in UEFA Competitions - but those in League's One and Two are allowed to stand.

So by the FLA's reasons for us not being allowed to stand - it is unsafe for us to do so - then how is it safe for Peterborough fans to stand in League Two, but if promoted to The Championship in the future, it will then be deemed unsafe for them to stand? Why is it Cardiff fans were deemed to be standing safely when in league one - but now they are in the Championship, in the same ground, according to the FLA legislation - they are now at risk as standing is unsafe in that division? It's complete madness.

The likes of Bayern Munich, Schalke and Borussia Dortmund stand en-masse in safe standing areas for all their domestic games without a problem. But as soon as they play in a UEFA competition, their stands have to be converted into seated areas, reducing their capacities by up to 15,000 - yet they still stand in those areas anyway, just as we do on The Kop. All the Italian stadiums are classed as all-seater, with the seats consisting of those "arse-print" style bench seats in the stands - which the vocal fans ignore and stand throughout every game.

The more you think about it, the more frustrating and ridiculous it becomes. It's absolutely scandalous that it's gone on this long.

It's about time it changed.

STAND!!


www.standupsitdown.co.uk

www.fsf.org.uk
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Offline Hinesy

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2008, 11:51:54 pm »
Very well put mate.
I'm pleased to see this back on the agenda and if anything its vital that the initial thrusts come from Liverpool fans as we have suffered most over the lunacy of the cages of the past. And yet we see Manchester City of all clubs being the most forward thinking about the standing and singing section.


And in some ways the club's dialogue with the RTK is bordering on the patronising. On one hand they are all for the fans making the effort and lauding the RTK's efforts and encouraging the 1892 block and yet on the other hand they are still instructing the stewards to enforce a sit down rule.

Yep.

Offline El Torres gol

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2008, 12:12:29 am »
Well researched article clearly. How bizarre that we cannot with all the vast amounts of money in the Premier League find some to install the German system quoted above. There is simply no question as to the merits of standing with regards to the effect on atmosphere. Time for change. Can we not instigate a petition to the minister for sport or others who we need to take on this cause?
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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 01:08:56 am »
How bizarre that we cannot with all the vast amounts of money in the Premier League find some to install the German system quoted above.

My understand is that it would require a change in the law of the land to move down that route?

Correct me if I am wrong though.

Offline Terry de Niro

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 01:49:49 am »
My understand is that it would require a change in the law of the land to move down that route?

Correct me if I am wrong though.
In a nutshell, but I do agree with BHB, and I think it needs to be looked at.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2008, 01:57:01 am by Thierry De Niro »

Offline LFCsnoopz

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2008, 08:22:33 am »
are handstands allowed? would be a great thing to see..

Offline BHB

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2008, 09:18:41 am »
My understand is that it would require a change in the law of the land to move down that route?

Correct me if I am wrong though.
Ok, I will....

There is no law against standing. A common misconception. It is not illegal, there is no law, and that is why you never see the police asking fans to sit down, it has got nothing to do with them. The only time you'll see police involved is if there is a potential for public order to break out.

An example being on Saturday against Reading - stewards approached a man and took him downstairs for "a word". The stewards were abused by those arround him when they took him down. When the fella returned, with the steward, to pick up his kid to take with him, a police officer accompanied the steward due to the abuse recieved last time. They thought public order could break out.

Other than that - standing has got absolutely nothing to do with the police. There is no law in place. You are not breaking any laws by standing.

But.....

The Football Licensing Authority (FLA) are tasked with implementing the recommendations set out by the Taylor Report. One of those was all-seater stadia. So on the back of that, they advise the Sports Minister and Secretary to pass ground regulation legislation, which he then approves or rejects.

The FLA continue to advise that the all-seater ruling is enforced, and will not be challenged on how they come to that advise. It's a closed door, and one the likes of SUSD and the FSF keeping knocking.

Persistant standing is just part of the terms and conditions of the ticket, ground regulations and local safety legislation as part of the safety certificate. That's all.

And why it is part of the safety certificate is beyond me.

That independant report carried out by Manchester United, and independant Risk Assessment around standing, found the times where fans are in most danger through standing was during access and egress, and goal celebrations. Non of which are covered in the Safety Certificate.

So the FLA are either concerned about our safety or they're not. Their actions and legislation states they're not.

Hopefully more and more will now realise why this is so frustrating to so many of us.
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Offline Emlyn18

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2008, 10:57:24 am »
LET US STAND.

Had this discussion on here a while ago, we've done better in Europe than any other competion in this few years and everyone knows how magic European nights are and how magic it is. Not all 100% down to standing but a lot of it is because we stand. Anyone that goes to the match regular knows how much better it is to stand FACT.
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Offline Mr Mojo Risin'

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2008, 03:54:18 pm »
Safe standing stands, dad/lads at the front so no complaining over the view.
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Offline jamesone23

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2008, 05:04:35 pm »
about time something was done about this. Great article, the extensive research goes a long way to ridiculing the FLA regulations.

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2008, 07:51:04 pm »
Who is it that can sort it out?  The FA, or UEFA?

Totally agree with the article though.  It is ridiculous.
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Offline El Torres gol

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2008, 11:41:17 pm »
Who is it that can sort it out?  The FA, or UEFA?



Surely it has to be at government level
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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2008, 12:43:07 pm »
Ok, I will....

There is no law against standing. A common misconception. It is not illegal, there is no law.

You seem to be confusing two different aspects of a broad subject. Stewards tolerating a few blocks standing on the now all seated Kop is not the same as the club providing us with official designated standing facilities.

It's the latter of those two situations I was on about mate and I am absolutely certain that standing facilities were outlawed by the Tory government of the time.

If they weren't, then whats this Early Day Motion about?

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=31670&SESSION=885

Offline BHB

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2008, 01:07:13 pm »
The motion was passed to remove the old style terraces. So no new grounds, and all Premiership clubs etc cannot have terraces within the grounds.

But that doesn't cover fans standing in all seater stadia.

The only thing that does, is the legislation ran via the FLA. Absolutely nothing to do with the police.
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Offline JoeK210185

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2008, 01:26:40 pm »
We, out of all club's, will be the last to stand up and say anything about it.

If the Mancs (both of them) can do it, other's should, pardon the pun, stand up and shout about it

If all else fails, move the club to Germany :)
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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2008, 07:38:18 pm »
Absolutely nothing to do with the police.

Of course. I dont know what the police have to do with this though? Don't recall mentioning them.

Offline BHB

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2008, 08:09:00 pm »
Of course. I dont know what the police have to do with this though? Don't recall mentioning them.
It is the responsibility of the police to ensure all laws are followed.

If standing was a law, they would enforce it.

Pointless arguement anyway, taking away from the point of the thread.
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Offline TOMMO86

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2008, 08:08:19 am »
Brilliant Post, I fully agree with everything its about time something was done about it,

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2008, 12:41:57 pm »
Talk that Aston Villa could have part of their Holt end closed by the council for persistant standing.

Sent this post to my Villa mate.

If something does happen there should be a show of support around the country, every "Kop" standing for one whole match ona  certain weekend.

Offline BHB

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2008, 02:00:38 pm »
Everyone at SUSD and The FSF are hoping that Birmingham Council press ahead with their threats to close the Holte End.

It'll create mass publicity around the issue and hopefully get it debated in public, openly and properly for the first time - something the FLA have always refused to do.

Bring it on.
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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2008, 06:07:37 pm »
Good luck to all involved with this and a good summary of what's happening from BHB.

Just to add my 2p worth, what a brilliant  laugh it is standing up and bouncing around.  Improves the match - going experience by about 1,000,000%

Offline liam1984

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2008, 08:56:19 pm »
absolutely brilliantly written comment

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2008, 05:35:20 pm »
Well put forward comments surely if people pressure their ideas then something can be prsented to whoever it concerns. i agree that by some standing can have its problems but on the other hand why do the police not intervene at the match?

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2008, 06:08:34 pm »
Fantastic read BHB, perhaps that could be shortened and turned into a flyer to be handed out before matches? If everyone in the Kop stands there is not much the stewards can do.

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2008, 10:15:49 pm »
Fantastic read BHB, perhaps that could be shortened and turned into a flyer to be handed out before matches? If everyone in the Kop stands there is not much the stewards can do.

people are too lazy, some at front will stand and some behind will think 'can't be bothered' and those at front will be told to sit down as people behind can't see

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2008, 09:38:49 am »
people are too lazy, some at front will stand and some behind will think 'can't be bothered' and those at front will be told to sit down as people behind can't see

I quite like the standing, though it's very rare as I almost never get a ticket in the Kop.  There was only one (personal) problem....I'm too short to see past the big lads standing in front of me  :-[

It's still more fun to stand and jump around, despite my vertically challenging problem!  ;D
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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2008, 12:40:10 pm »
A good, but incomplete, post.

Firstly, i am an old git in his late forties whose first game was in 1968.I nearly always CHOSE to stand on the terraces, and given the choice, would normally still CHOOSE to.

It is not true that "there is no proof that all seaters are safer ". There is. Since the introduction of all- seaters there have been no deaths or serious injuries inside our grounds attributable to "crowd movement".

Pre all seaters it was easy. You either chose to sit in the seats, or chose to stand on the terraces, if you were small you would get in early to stand at the front or behind a wall behind an entrance.

The problem at the moment is that choice is gone.Firstly, you dont know whether the people in front of you are going to be standing. and secondly with most of our games being sold out you cant move to a better view.Not a problem if you are young,male and 6ft, but a problem if you are a child, small,old, a smaller woman, or slightly disabled. At £30-£50 a game that is irritating.

With many stadia, and stands reprofiled as all seaters it would not even be as easy as ripping out some seats, the terracing itself would have to be relevelled and accesses and gangways changed to cope with the extra capacity.

All seating did make jibbing and forgeries more of a problem for those doing it, there was nowhere to go. As standing away has become more commonplace, so the jibbing and forgery problem has increased as it makes those extra bodies easier to accomodate, as was seen at its worse in Athens last year which i did attend.Several areas became uncomfortably, bordering on the dangerously, overcrowded.This was as a direct result of the mass standing making it more difficult to asess how many people were in the stadium. (Cue outraged genuine ticket holders outside who could not get in).

The downside of all seaters was that you could no longer stand with your mates. The upside was that it prevented those who wanted to "have a go" from mobbing up. As standing has become more commonplace, particularly away, you can see the return of this now at our aways.

It is perverse that now, almost 20 years after hillsborough and 23 years after Heysel, the fact that things have got so much better as a result of all seaters is being used as a reason to return to terrracing.Of course there is a generation of football fans who know nothing else now, which is why a siren voice like mine who can remember is no bad thing.

There is no easy answer to this.All seater grounds are not going to be rebuilt.Ad hoc standing in fixed seating positions causes and creates problems.Some people do wnt to stand.

The only solution i can propose is designated "standing tolerance zones" (the old stands and terraces). At least in that way people can make a choice, and i would CHOOSE to stand on the Kop, while i am still fit and able. But dont let anyone tell you that it is not without its risks. Pre Hillsborough and Heysel happened because it could.
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Offline marvellous10

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2008, 04:00:17 pm »
Good post BHB, and Xerxes you do make some good points. Basically I think we should have a designated area allowed for standing and this should be made clear at time of booking a ticket etc.

I went to Arsenal CL match, then Blackburn. Difference was staggering, was like being in a morgue. Standing easily adds 75% of the atmosphere, Euro nights ain't special just for the sake of it.

Be interesting to see what happens with the Birmingham Council.
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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2008, 05:28:25 pm »
Be interesting to see if brum stewards try to make us sit down on Saturday then

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2008, 11:03:50 pm »
well im in ireland, and most of the big GAA stadiums that i have been to are sitting and standing.. most stadiums have not yet invested in all seaters, possibly only a stand or 2 are.. and there is never any safety fear.
but there never was any agro or overcrowding to a large degree in those stadiums, sure they would be packed on occasion, but i guess if stadiums are marshalled properly, and with the CTV option, there should be no excuse, stadia could easily implement and manage at least an all standing bottom tier, there is an argument for the tiers above, especially at the front, unless there was some nice handlebars to hold onto on the overhanging front row :D

Offline marvellous10

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2008, 09:34:44 am »
Be interesting to see if brum stewards try to make us sit down on Saturday then
It will, but I'll be standing I know that for sure!
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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2008, 05:17:51 am »
stewards are killing it for us. Why is our famous atmosphere faltering during season games? Why are we that much more successful in Europe?

Our form falters like any other team but in Europe the fans are more present and in the league games, stewards telling people to sit down and all that bollocks is hurting us. IMO there is a slight co-relation.

screw the FA, stewards are c*nts

Offline scouse -sherg-5times

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2008, 10:31:59 am »
the only reason seating was introduced was because of hillsborough. surely the prevention of another disaster is greater than your need to stand up at the game.

Online quinny

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #33 on: April 28, 2008, 03:52:22 pm »
Hillsborough didn't happen because fans were standing during the game though
« Last Edit: April 28, 2008, 03:55:38 pm by quinny »

Offline mreford

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2008, 02:25:42 am »
imagine if they brought back the old stadiums and the new LFC stadium wasnt an all seate, that would be the best day of my life

Offline eAyeAddio

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2008, 05:36:36 pm »
the only reason seating was introduced was because of hillsborough. surely the prevention of another disaster is greater than your need to stand up at the game.


As you don't appear to know too much about what happened at Hillsborough, can I suggest that you read a copy of Justice Taylor's report?

You know, the one where the blame is firmly placed on the Sth. Yorks. Police loss of control.
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Offline a former tribune of the plebs

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2008, 12:41:04 am »
the only reason seating was introduced was because of hillsborough. surely the prevention of another disaster is greater than your need to stand up at the game.

Wrong.

Offline barrowinf

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #37 on: June 23, 2008, 10:36:19 am »

http://www.borussia.de/en/home_matches,118059,0.html

read bottom of this link this is how it can be done

Offline Fontaine

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #38 on: July 6, 2008, 02:10:20 pm »
I get over for 3/4 games a season and there always big ones so I've never been asked to sit down on the Kop.  Do the stewards physically remove fans or is it a series of threats followed by the fan/s sitting down because of embarrassment whilst cursing under their breath.
All this talk of mass groups mounting an offensive surely it would only take 10 or so fans who just refuse to sit down that would encourage others around them to join in and so on.

Offline adopted_scouser

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Re: Standing / Stewards / FLA
« Reply #39 on: July 6, 2008, 07:31:28 pm »
Hillsborough didn't happen because fans were standing during the game though

Spot on. 

In my opinion, it is easier to have a horrific accident in seating areas, because the seat infront of you can be so easy to trip over and fall.  I've seen it happen a couple of times.
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