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Careful What You Wish For ...
« on: January 17, 2008, 02:07:02 PM »
Careful What You Wish For...

...Well, that’s how we got into this mess in the first place, isn’t it? Careful what you wish for, as it might just come true.

As fans, we wanted investment. We wanted it because we wanted money coming into the club, in order to compete with the other three big teams. We wanted to get rich quick, and for our new sugar daddies to buy us the shiny new players we craved. We were greedy, and given that we are football fans, understandably so.

With David Moores’ finances, the club was struggling to even pay for players in Dirk Kuyt’s price range; the erstwhile chairman had to pay for the transfer from his own pocket.

It’s clear that Moores suddenly found himself out of his depth. In the early- to mid-‘90s, his and Liverpool’s wealth was comparable with that of their rivals, and the club could break the British transfer record for strikers like Dean Saunders and Stan Collymore. But Moores became a man drowning, as the waters rose sharply around him.

Perhaps Moores and other the senior figures at the club could have been more savvy in the ‘90s, when football went Boom!, but as it is we tend to decry any acts of commercialism. How does a club go down that route without being accused of selling its soul? Back then we were proud that our club wasn’t acting like Manchester United; but now we look on in envy at their riches as they close in on our 18 titles. (Thankfully, five European Cups is still well out of their reach.)

Before Moores sold up just one year ago, Arsenal and Manchester United already had far bigger stadiums, and Chelsea had all the money in the world, and then a little more, and then, just because Abramovich really was that rich, a little more still. Arsenal and Chelsea were already in a position to charge far, far more for tickets, on account of being situated in affluent London, and United’s merchandise machine has been in overdrive since the ‘90s (while they’ve also seen price hikes under the Glazers).

Chelsea and United had signed more than a dozen £20m+ players between them, while Liverpool had none. And Arsenal had an amazing collection of youngsters sourced as far back as the turn of the millennium, whose values were soaring by the day; the calibre of player who, if Liverpool wished to buy in a ready-made form in order to compete in the here-and-now, would cost absolute fortunes.

We certainly got some of what we wished for: Torres and Babel whetted the appetite. The net spend wasn’t that much more than it had been in previous seasons, but without new owners, it’s likely to have been a case of having to sell in order to buy. And the key players all received hefty wage rises in line with the competition, something that was required –– albeit also facilitated by the rise in Premier League reward money.

But then it all got messy, and it seems we nearly got a new manager, in Jurgen Klinsmann: something and someone we really did not wish for. (Although, of course, there were enough Liverpool fans spitting the dummy and calling for Benítez’s head. But these are almost exclusively the 606-ers and forum trolls who refuse to use any sense of perspective when making judgements. These are the men, women and children who live and look longingly at the greener grass on the other side.)

Meanwhile, financing the loan they need to repurchase the club is proving difficult for Gillett and Hicks, and the financial landscape has changed as the season has progressed. It’s all gone pear-shaped.

So now people are calling for the Yanks to sell, and for the club to change hands once again. There is talk of Dubai International Capital coming back in with a new offer, possibly to buy out Tom Hicks.

While I understand the frustrations of fellow fans, and have been distinctly underwhelmed at some of the owners’ actions, not to mention depressed at the way progress this season has been undermined by off-the-field activities, I would call for caution when it comes to crying for change. It may be just what we need. But let’s not think that it will instantly solve all the problems, or that any new owner couldn’t actually make things worse.

Hicks and Gillett admitted they knew nothing when they bought the club, but maybe they now (finally!) know a lot more. Maybe they’ve learnt a few lessons, as the fans protested back in November and again this week? In another, lesser-known interview last week, Hicks admitted that they had underestimated the passion of the fans. No-one can accuse them of being naive businessmen, but in the arena of English football that accusation could be made. It’s only to be expected that fans will put pressure on them –– which set of fans wouldn’t? –– and how they react to that will be interesting to witness.

Hopefully they are now far more aware of just how much the manager means to the fans. Hopefully they now know that the manager manages, and doesn’t just train the team. Hopefully they realise that meddling is not the route to success in English football. I won’t rule out that possibility, but obviously it’s up to them to prove that or, if the reports are to be believed, call it quits if they feel it’s beyond them.

There’s no getting away from the fact that Hicks’ comments about Klinsmann were ill-advised, and badly timed, but if he was hoping to clear up the ongoing speculation surrounding Rafa’s position, and explain how much better things had become, that intention (if not its execution) should not be ignored. Reports that Parry and Gillett were enraged by his comments suggest less a case for constructive dismissal, and more a case of foot-in-mouth. But only Hicks knows what he was playing at. 

Talking to another manager was not a mistake if they genuinely believed Rafa was likely to leave; but of course, their first concern should have been getting over to clear up the mess and persuading him to stay. Which is what ultimately happened –– although had the Reds lost in Marseilles, a big mistake might have been made, and that really scares the hell out of me.

Benítez could well now be in the position Martin Jol was at Spurs, but that is not necessarily the case. The situations are in no way identical. This is a different club, a different manager, and different owners. That distinction needs to be made.

Sounding out goes on in football. But offering the job to Klinsmann (should Rafa have left) was a worry, given his lack of experience or any kind of notable achievements on his CV. But again, that eventuality never came to pass. So that just leaves speculation. Only they know how itchy their finger got over the trigger. Even so, it seems a bizarre choice.

Hicks and Gillett could hold up their hands, admit their mistakes, and say that they really have finally come to understand what is needed: total and committed support of the manager. The trouble is, fans will be far less likely believe them, and to the press it’s become open season on the club. Any story, however outlandish, will appear to be credible, and act to further destabilise and undermine Benítez. I’m sure you’ve read a few already.

Part of me wants to see a clean slate, and a line drawn under the American adventure, given how messy it’s become, and part of me wants them to sort out the mess themselves.

Because changing owners would mean yet more upheaval, yet more uncertainty, and possibly yet more delays over the stadium. It doesn’t guarantee Rafa a job any more than the current ownership does. And it could mean new owners making the same mistakes as the Americans. Or worse.

Jumping from the frying pan into the fire is not the answer. Getting some stability as soon as possible is. But right now, God knows how that can happen.

Perhaps it’s unfair to bracket the American duo together given that they are not joined at the hip, and only Hicks seems intent on shooting from his. Perhaps Gillett sharing ownership with Dubai International Capital could work; but on paper it would appear an even stranger relationship than the one we currently see.

Why Dubai International Capital concern me, apart from the suggestions 12 months ago that they wanted to sell the club to make a profit within a few years (which may or may not have been true), is that the fact that Sameer Al-Ansari, founder and chairman of DIC, is a Liverpool fan. And in some ways that terrifies me, as contradictory as it sounds.

Because for every honest, knowledgeable fan (which Al-Ansari could well be, don’t get me wrong), there are a handful of fans who care as much as everyone else, but also think they know best. And fans who think they know best, and happen to also be in control of the club, are most likely to tinker.

So while Al-Ansari and DIC could be the best solution (and if it came to pass, here’s praying), there’s also the worry that he could do something even the Americans haven’t: interfere in team selection. While Rafa has been undermined, he hasn’t been told who to play, and where to play them.

The Americans have made mistakes, but the pair have been nowhere near as bad as someone like Vladimir Romanov at Hearts, who ended up sacking several managers and picking the side himself. Hearts now sit second-bottom of the Scottish Premier League, having been top when he sacked George Burley.

The situation at Liverpool remains salvageable, but winning back the fans won’t be easy. And I’m not sure how the duo can go about doing it. Backing Rafa with time and serious funds would be one way, and the signing of Martin Skrtel was a start, but part of the problem is a lack of the kind of money that it would require. I’m not sure they can convince those who see their time as being up.

Unless one or both of the Americans were to sell to a party who were guaranteed to be brimming with common sense and football knowledge –– say, a consortium led by someone like Kenny Dalglish, who appreciates Benítez’s qualities and the pressures he is under, and would never dream of undermining him –– then there’s no way of knowing for sure that we’d be better off. We’re back to gambling.

I certainly never expected Thaksin Shinawatra to appear like the model silent benefactor, but I’m still glad he didn’t take charge of Liverpool; I’m sure we dodged a bullet with that one.

So we’re back where we were a year ago: wishing for someone to come in with deep pockets and a patient approach. Or for one or both of the Americans to silence the doubters and to do something to prove that they have what it takes to successfully run a legendary institution like Liverpool FC.

Frankly, I don’t care how it happens, or who it involves –– I just want to see the club back on an even keel, and to become the model of stability it was for so many years.

© Paul Tomkins 2008

Offline matchoftheday

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2008, 02:09:34 PM »
Good post Paul. :)

Offline kermit^

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2008, 02:47:55 PM »
Nice article, Paul. Reading it, I can't help but feeling more sad. OUR club, the one and only that we support through the thick and thin, is now doing all the things I despise in the past. :(

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2008, 02:58:42 PM »
If someone can explain to me how they were only looking at Klinsmann as an insurance policy in case Rafa decided to leave as was rumoured in the nasty old media, yet Rafa was apparently destined to get the sack if we went out of the CL I'd be grateful.

Until that happens I'm not seeing how Hicks' statement is anything like a really misguided and stupid attempt to clear the air

Offline Jim Mason

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2008, 03:07:46 PM »
Great post Paul. Sometimes we all get carried away I think more because the mancs are closing rapidly on our 18 titles and we all feel the need to start winning titles again a bit like Celtic fans when Rangers were about to emulate the 10 in a row. We needed big investment in the team and to me the yanks still haven’t really done that. The money so far as Paul pointed out has come from our run in the CL and the players we sold. What gets me is if these are meant to be sound businessmen then the purchase of Javier Mascherano is a no brainer. He is 23 you have three of the biggest clubs in the world queuing up to buy him and add on to that City as well, it makes business sense to buy him at that prince replacing him would cost a fortune and the height of a players career is 28 so he will not only get better but be an investment if they wanted to sell him later. Anyway we can only hope and pray that the Americans sort themselves out as Paul says or DIC are all what we hope they are and understand our club, the other possibilities are to scary to contemplate

Offline Emo Phillips

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2008, 03:21:52 PM »
If someone can explain to me how they were only looking at Klinsmann as an insurance policy in case Rafa decided to leave as was rumoured in the nasty old media, yet Rafa was apparently destined to get the sack if we went out of the CL I'd be grateful.

Until that happens I'm not seeing how Hicks' statement is anything like a really misguided and stupid attempt to clear the air



I'm sure it was a bit of both. If they were barely on speaking terms with Rafa, then they'd have been thinking about replacing him and worried about him leaving.

But clearly they were also thinking of sacking him if we went out of the Champions League, which is just fucking nuts.
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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2008, 03:53:59 PM »
Good stuff as always Paul, but I have to question how you can act so subjective. This is the sort of article from you that I could have read on .tv. C'mon admit it. They're a shower of c*nts and the sooner they leave the club the better. Although, you are right in saying it would be naive to think DIC were angels who want what's best for Liverpool Football Club and nothing else. But surely coming in after the previous owners had been practically run out would be a warning signal to them? And not exactly a subtle one, at that.
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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2008, 04:01:42 PM »
interesting points about al ansari and how being fan can make him
 'think they know best. And fans who think they know best, and happen to also be in control of the club, are most likely to tinker.'

and:
'there’s also the worry that he could do something even the Americans haven’t: interfere in team selection. While Rafa has been undermined, he hasn’t been told who to play, and where to play them.'

hadnt thought of it like that. now wary of DIC aswel!
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Offline lookieman

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2008, 05:14:40 PM »
I tip my hat to you Paul for looking at it from a very dispassionate point of view, instead of a fan's point of view. I can't agree with Garstonite that Paul was being subjective here. I suppose all of us feel that the G+H has, or at least Hicks has, had done something that has riled us all. I don't think anyone would say DIC is the be-all, end-all solution, from all accounts they are astute businessmen who would not act compulsively and that is something we can take comfort in, however small.

Offline DerekW

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2008, 05:41:48 PM »
I agree with most of PT's comments, and share his reservations about a change. 

A word about American management and Hicks' pronouncements.  In the US top people believe that 'rank gives right' - if you are boss  then you're always right.  Hicks daft statements reflect that view, and he has to have the last word.  It wasn't just a plain talking American, it was a calculated step to demonstrate that he's in charge.

That approach has its risks.  Many people will tell him to get stuffed and simply walk away - as happens a lot in the US.  Hopefully Rafa will keep in mind that he has the support of the people who really matter - the supporters.

Hicks could undo much of the damage by admitting he has put his foot in his mouth and saying 'sorry'.  Let's hope he does - soon.

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2008, 08:23:29 PM »
I tip my hat to you Paul for looking at it from a very dispassionate point of view, instead of a fan's point of view. I can't agree with Garstonite that Paul was being subjective here. I suppose all of us feel that the G+H has, or at least Hicks has, had done something that has riled us all. I don't think anyone would say DIC is the be-all, end-all solution, from all accounts they are astute businessmen who would not act compulsively and that is something we can take comfort in, however small.

I had originally written OBjective, but changed it as I believed it was too slanted towards the money men at the club. I suppose you could say their are internal and external issues - G&H/Rafa and G&H&Rafa (LFC)/Another outside investment, but for the immediate issue, and maybe I'm being dramatic when I say this, but I do genuinely believe there's no ability to sit on the fence on this issue, as much evidence Paul puts forward or not. You're either on the Yanks side or on Rafa's side.
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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2008, 08:47:39 PM »
hmmm......... I dunno about this...
Nah, all due respect, but I think your wrong, these Americans need to go. I'm not stupid, is anyone else here stupid?

There's not much to change anyway, they've done fuck all really, just drawn up a few plans and bought our club on the sly.

Offline Uncle Ronnie

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2008, 08:49:27 PM »
You're either on the Yanks side or on Rafa's side.

I think it's quite clear Paul is on Rafa's side.

Doesn't mean he can't look at what G&H are trying to do without calling them a pair of c*nts.

It's a good article. Probably the first I've read from a fan that doesn't seem to be blinded by anger.

Offline Emo Phillips

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2008, 08:49:33 PM »
You're either on the Yanks side or on Rafa's side.


For me, it's clear that Paul is on Rafa's side. When is he ever not?

I can't see one positive mention for the Americans in there, other than they're not quite as bad as that nutter at Hearts, and that *maybe* Hicks wasn't looking to constructively dismiss Rafa, just being a twat. Hoping they'll clear up the mess they caused, or hand over the club to someone who will, is hardly a vote of confidence in Hicks and Gillett.
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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2008, 09:01:06 PM »
great post Paul, much of what I've been thinking but not being in the know and not trusting any newspapers to give the whole truth, all have agendas. I've built a model in my mind of a best case scenario of events:

24th May 2007: Rafa calls for much better players to be brought into the club

G&H reaction: Allow funds for Lucas, Babel, Voronin and Torres (and a number of promising youngsters).

Although it should be noted the sales of Bellamy, Cisse, Pongolle and Gonzales coupled with the release of Fowler and Zendens wages and the champions league money was more than enough to cover such purchases and means the americans had yet to commit any of their own money.

November 2007: After a number of attempts to line up transfer targets, and apparently know help from Parry, Benitez sees no other alternative than to go public in order to get their attention.

G&H not knowing football and the difficulties in landing players see this as some sort of undermining or challenging of their ownership and as such attack Benitez's role as manager which he very sarcastically acknowledges. Relations are now very strained and Rafa is dangerously close to the exit door, and as such G&H speak to Klinsmann ::) Rafa hears that his position is at risk and loving his job, the fans and the club decides to back down and offers the olive branch agreeing to wait to discuss his transfer needs when they arrive for the Manc match.

December 2007: By all accounts when they meet all parties are in agreement and appear to be pulling in the right direction.

Somewhere along the line the american stock market takes a downturn as does the americans vast wealth ( not a businessman so have no idea how it went down).

January 2008: Skrtel is signed. Klinsmann speaks to Bayern and it comes out that G&H sounded him out about the job in November. Hicks knowing how well we responded to his honesty and candidness naively decides to admit that he had discussions with Jurgen in November as a contingency if Rafa left or was sacked through unresolvable personal problems (no such thing in my mind but whatever) but that now he is a 100% behind Rafa.

No idea where we go from here and whether or not if Hicks gets his loan whether that will include funds for players. The sad thing is I never used to give a toss about what went on off the pitch, now it's all I seem to think about.

Are the initial reservations about DIC are unfounded then sound but if not then why are we so happy to have them 'rescue' us?


Roy Hodgson is the Liverpool Manager and I fully support him

Rafael Benitez is no longer here but it doesn't mean I will allow fuckwits to disparage his legacy.

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2008, 09:24:18 PM »
I'd just like to state I don't doubt Paul is on Rafa's side. I suppose it's difficult to describe. Especially for a man that's going blind looking at a computer screen as much as I have today. I just feel as though there is absolutely no justification for what the Yanks have done to this club  and can't even stand to try and hear out a reasoning behind their actions, as much as I respect Paul for trying.
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Offline Emo Phillips

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2008, 09:30:43 PM »
I'd just like to state I don't doubt Paul is on Rafa's side. I suppose it's difficult to describe. Especially for a man that's going blind looking at a computer screen as much as I have today. I just feel as though there is absolutely no justification for what the Yanks have done to this club  and can't even stand to try and hear out a reasoning behind their actions, as much as I respect Paul for trying.



Garsto - what role have those fans who were asking for Rafa to be sacked had in all this?
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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2008, 09:33:27 PM »
I don't think it's a great post at all. it calls on us to give the benefit of the doubt to the current owners, despite the fact they've lied, spun, and ballsed things up at every turn.

DIC back incumbent management and the suggestion of potential meddling is nonsense in my view.

are we supposed to thank our lucky stars their balls ups haven't plumbed romanov's depths yet?

i'm all for perspective and reasoned thinking but I found this post annoying.
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Offline Emo Phillips

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2008, 09:46:21 PM »
are we supposed to thank our lucky stars their balls ups haven't plumbed romanov's depths yet?


I don't think it's saying be grateful for anything - just that things could be worse, and change also comes with that possibility.

As we saw with the Americans, it's all very well saying good stuff but you need to act it out when it matters. DIC are bound to say the right things beforehand, are they not?
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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2008, 09:58:38 PM »
Great piece Paul. I've done a lot of thinking this week about this, and however much I want to see the back of G&H, I have also raised my guard about what is said from figures either at the club or linked to the club.

In the current climate the idea of G&H leaving and DIC coming in could be the best thing that's happened to us. Funds for the stadium (they could probably go with one of the new designs as they must have been cost-effective) and crucially funds for building a competitive side domestically. BUT, I agree with Paul in that DIC, for all we know, could get a little too hands on, specifically with player purchases. That's where the fan element could become a danger.

This whole ordeal has left me skeptical of anything I hear now. I cringe now when I think back to G&H's press conference and how I was taken in so much.
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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2008, 10:10:14 PM »
I don't think it's saying be grateful for anything - just that things could be worse, and change also comes with that possibility.

As we saw with the Americans, it's all very well saying good stuff but you need to act it out when it matters. DIC are bound to say the right things beforehand, are they not?

which is why we should look at DIC's investment background and the backgrounds of its key players. we want investors with deep pockets who look for growth opportunities with long-term value and stability, and whose unified aim is to do that while associating dubai with success and prestige.

from what i've read, they back existing management and look for synergy. rumours of phone calls to get dudek off the park when you don't even own the club are b-ll-cks in my view. they'd build the club's enterprise value the right way.

the existing owners have already demonstrated that they can't deliver on those fronts.
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Offline Parpello

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2008, 10:15:10 PM »
I think the Klinsmann episode was the straw that broke the camels back, these two c*nts were actually picking our next manager.
Their short spell here is littered with arrogance & incompetance:
The athens ticket fiasco
The summer transfer window
The Stadium downsizing
The treatment of Rafa
The winter transfer window
The klinsmann affair
The club debt
Nothing has been achieved, other than uncertainty for the manager, players & fans, & as a result they've lost our trust.

The fans were gutted when DIC pulled out last year, but G&H managed to win us over with a charm offensive, as it turned out it was all a sham.
Sorry Paul i usually like your articles, but G&H have turned into nightmare owners & have to go ASAP.

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2008, 10:16:50 PM »
and another thing. this 'the next owners could turn out to be worse'... the genie was out of the bottle the minute moores decided to sell up, i'm afraid.
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Offline RedBoywonder

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2008, 10:21:28 PM »
I dont care how you try to dress it up Paul, the whole sorry saga has dragged this clubs name through the dirt. It has gone too far in most fans eyes and we want them out for the good of the Club.

I'm not just wishing for DIC come in, I'm PRAYING they do!
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Offline Juan de Fuca

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2008, 10:50:05 PM »
The simpler truth is that everything that the Two Stooges has said has turned out to be lies. To give them any benefit of any doubt is to deceive oneself because you don't want to face reality. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.... The next step is an economic boycott. No kits, no EST, etc. If it's done on a coordinated basis, it's the one chance to affect change.

Offline Emo Phillips

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2008, 10:54:29 PM »
The next step is an economic boycott. No kits, no EST, etc. If it's done on a coordinated basis, it's the one chance to affect change.


Doesn't that just end up crippling our own club's finances?
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Offline ALANM

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2008, 11:11:27 PM »
Whoever has control of LFC, I want to see a situation were the back page headlines are made by what happens on the pitch, not off it.

Sir John Smith would be spinning in his grave if he knew LFC were hanging their dirty linen out in public!! It's not the Liverpool way, and it needs to stop now.

Offline Juan de Fuca

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2008, 11:26:48 PM »
I doubt it, it's more of a message with a small bite. Ticket sales, sponsorship and TV money make up the vast portion of the club's revenues.

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2008, 11:42:45 PM »


Garsto - what role have those fans who were asking for Rafa to be sacked had in all this?

Well, naturally it has given them some form of grounds. Albeit thin, but certainly enough when you are eagerly searching for reasons to back up what would obviously be a stupid, senseless decision. That's why we need to make our voices heard. What get most press against Wigan? Chanting Benitez' name or the booing at the end?
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Offline RAOTW

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2008, 11:45:39 PM »
Dont really agree with much of that the Fuckers have lied through there teeth and will only bleed us dry as the padlock tightens on their pockets if there plans go ahead with the loan were fucked no signing mediocre team no rafa, a new stadium that wont get filled the twats must go! with a different look at it as well written as it was dont wash with me! i i have my reservations over rafas rotation etc like most but with proper backing i hope he puts that 2 bed he needs backing cus that man has shown us loyalty, devotion in the face of theseguys bullshit and for that i only admire and love him more! gave me the best night of my life! these guys are slowly breaking my heart! fuck the yanks and that scab parry out out out

Offline free savannah

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2008, 06:59:12 AM »
Good post, Paul - really made me see the mess from a different perspective.

Quote
Unless one or both of the Americans were to sell to a party who were guaranteed to be brimming with common sense and football knowledge –– say, a consortium led by someone like Kenny Dalglish, who appreciates Benítez’s qualities and the pressures he is under, and would never dream of undermining him –– then there’s no way of knowing for sure that we’d be better off. We’re back to gambling.

Perhaps I'm being naive (since I'm no finance expert), but after thinking about it, I'd still say we'd better of with DIC then Hicks. They have better financial resources and backup, for one. And even if worse comes to worst as once rumoured and DIC is to sell the club again at some point, they will do so after gaining profits, which can only mean LFC will be in healthy condition when it happens. While under these americans' ownership, there are indications selling will be because of debts. Just the other way around.


Offline thereds69

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #31 on: January 18, 2008, 07:43:20 AM »
i wish i hv the money..
good enough to buy the LFC's shares...
good enough to extend Rafa contract till 2020..
good enough to build a stadium of 100k capacity...
bla bla bla..

then I believe I'll interfere..I'll choose the players..haha...
I'll sack those I don't like...

This is reality man...if you're fan, can't hold yourself, at least from saying that "I like this player, lets sign him".

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #32 on: January 18, 2008, 09:29:45 AM »
I think you're right to urge caution about DIC, Paul.  There's been plenty of talk about frying pans and fires.  It's a new twist on the Soccer AM mindset - sack the plonker who isn't cutting it, whether they be a player, manager or owner.  I hope some of yous have bosses who are more tolerant where you work. :)

If you take a look at the wider picture, the Prem clubs that have overseas owners, the only ones whose supporters are happy are where the owner has very deep pockets, sufficient to sustain better than expected levels of success on the pitch.  Chelsea and Man City stand out.

If you look at the investment required to give us what we want - number 19, it requires something like £50 million a season net spending on players (buying us 2 or three top players each summer).  Add to that something like an extra £20 million a year on wages ongoing.  Then there's the £300 million minimum on building the new stadium. 

So over the next four years, till the stadium is built, that would require £580 million, which would attract interest payments rising to £60 million each year.  Any investor would want at least 15% return on their capital (and Hicks and Gillett look for better than that) which means that there must be confidence that profits of £100 million a year are possible when the new stadium opens.  The risk of a Leeds United style meltdown is very real when chasing those numbers.

Any way you look at it, those are fantasy numbers, only achievable by the likes of an Abramovic or Shinawatra who have free cash available.  And with guys like that there's always some doubt about how they accumulated their wealth and I'm not sure their values have much in common with those of us brought up in Liverpool. 

Whilst DIC is owned by the world's fifth wealthiest man, it's a business, an asset management company, that borrows and makes its investments work hard.  So my hunch is we're being naive expecting DIC to be our knights in shining armour. 

If we don't want a tainted billionaire owning the club, we've got to accept that we need to be more realistic and patient in our expectations of what can be achieved on the pitch.  Whilst we laugh at the geordies calling Newcastle a "big club," in reality our situation isn't too different - we too have unrealistic expectations.

This current debacle is an embarrassment and I feel angry with the Americans for being so insensitive to the way the club has always gone about its business.  If this cloud has a silver lining, it's that the Americans must have learnt a lesson about the strength of feeling held by the core support.  And by bringing the internal divisions into the open (about Gillett and Hicks's tensions as well as the spat with Rafa) it's deflected some of the media attention away from our manager and the team.  And Keegan's arrival at the barcodes will also give us some respite.

Carra is right to say that the off field problems are no excuse for poor performances, however all of us who have worked for a living will know how difficult it is to concentrate on doing your job if you've had an argument with the boss and he's not talking to you - the situation that Rafa has had to put up with.

Four wins in a row and we'll all be feeling very different.




Offline lookieman

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #33 on: January 18, 2008, 10:28:29 AM »
and another thing. this 'the next owners could turn out to be worse'... the genie was out of the bottle the minute moores decided to sell up, i'm afraid.

Too true, the saying " the grass is greener on the other side" At the best of times, you might question whether it really will be better, but saying that this is not the best of times for Liverpool FC and in this case the grass will ALWAYS be greener on the other side imho.

Offline Emo Phillips

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #34 on: January 18, 2008, 10:36:35 AM »
Too true, the saying " the grass is greener on the other side" At the best of times, you might question whether it really will be better, but saying that this is not the best of times for Liverpool FC and in this case the grass will ALWAYS be greener on the other side imho.


That's a bit naive, isn't it? There's a chance it'll be better, but those with the money are really likely to be that much different are they? Are all billionaires saints with hearts of gold and pure intentions?
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Offline Calcamie

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #35 on: January 18, 2008, 09:58:42 PM »
Great letter. We are talking here about the greatest and most succesfull football club of the last 48 years not only in this country but in the world. The hopes and dreams of the greatest and most dynamic fans in the world rest with these people who make the  financial decisions. Lets hope they make the right decisions.

Offline MNAA

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2008, 05:18:31 AM »
For a start, everyone needs to focus back on the tasks at hand. Quit talking unnecessarily and absolutely stop shooting from the hip ....

Offline the3rdman

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2008, 06:37:56 AM »
it also seems that people have or had a problem with DIC having an exit strategy by selling the club on in 7-10 years. What difference does that make? These two will never last 7 years as owners of the club. It's only a year down the line and by all accounts they can't agree and atleast one is looking to get rid of the other. The DIC exit had us with projected yearly increases in value. Will that happen under G&H if they use the club to secure debt?

Offline The Nihilists

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2008, 10:50:17 AM »
it also seems that people have or had a problem with DIC having an exit strategy by selling the club on in 7-10 years. What difference does that make? These two will never last 7 years as owners of the club. It's only a year down the line and by all accounts they can't agree and atleast one is looking to get rid of the other. The DIC exit had us with projected yearly increases in value. Will that happen under G&H if they use the club to secure debt?


While it's a fair point that they'll never last, I think it's also a little concerning that DIC want to make a profit then get out. But as you say, that could be better than the yanks anyway.

Offline HARVEMOBILE

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Re: Careful What You Wish For ...
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2008, 01:18:41 PM »
Dual ownership,like,as we well know,dual managership is practically unworkable. DIC and Gillett will definitely be unworkable.Two different cultures together with the mistrust that will grow is neither good for the club or for a proper working relationship.It has to be the two yanks,which I'm rapidly turning against,or DIC.There can be no mix and match.As I say, I'm against dual ownership. Let's hope DIC come up with a good proposition.As for changing manager, there aren't many ,if any,better ,available ,managers out there.