Author Topic: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius  (Read 2560 times)

Offline BCCC

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Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« on: January 13, 2008, 06:31:30 PM »
After reading that cracking post from Spam Monkey Deluxe that put some perspective on things as well as raised a few memories for me some of our eventful last few years came flooding back.

A couple of things in particular stood out looking back, both involving one player; Didi Hamann and in particular his effect on two games. I apologise for the ramblings and hope the points aren’t lost in the self indulgent nostalgia or you fall asleep before you get the gist of it or to the end of it.

Firstly the references to the first Leverkusen Champions League tie under Houllier where I attended both legs. After winning 1-0 at home and with the way we were capable of defending away I was quietly confident of progressing as I walked from the train station through the park towards the Bay Arena for the second leg. I got chatting to a Belgian guy who used to travel to watch Leverkusen home games who I found very knowledgeable about football. He like most Europeans put us to shame with his command of the English language. With lines of communication established we both agreed that if Liverpool got the away goal that it would probably be the end of Leverkusen's CL campaign. This was a Leverkusen team that boasted Ballack, Lucio, Ze Roberto, Nowotny and Berbatov to serve as a reminder.

We started the game very well playing our usual counter attacking football and Leverkusen looked a bit nervous until Ballack picked the ball up 25yds out and unleashed an unstoppable drive to cancel out the first leg advantage around 15mins in. Not to worry we didn’t concede many under Houllier, our shape was good and Didi was doing an excellent job just in front of the back four.

We started to look comfortable under pressure (similar to many visiting teams to Anfield these days) and very dangerous on the break with the usual Michael Owen pace tearing through the Leverkusen central defence. But unfortunately on this trip he had left his shooting boots behind and formed a close relationship with the Bay Arena woodwork.

Abel Xavier of all people cropped up to score the equaliser just before half time. This was the goal that should’ve sent us into the semi finals. We could defend a one goal advantage better than anyone in Europe and that goal left Leverkusen needing to score twice. I imagine my Belgian friend wherever he was, was thinking his Champions League travels were over for another season.

We were in control from what I could see from the stands of the cosy but noisy 22,500 capacity Bay Arena until the decision that finally had me questioning Gerard Houllier. In fact it smacked of a man who had grown bored of the ultra defensive boring tag he had been labelled with by boldly deciding to show how he could play a different style. With about 30mins to go Houllier made the decision that cost us a place in the semi finals; he replaced Dietmar Hamann with the offensive Vladimir Smicer. At the time it made me nervous and I was convinced that Didi must have picked up a knock although if he had he wasn’t showing it. We were a swift counter attacking non possession football team in the image of our manager; he couldn’t change, we couldn’t change.

Within minutes of the substitution Leverkusen scored to make it 2-1 but still needing another to win the tie. The game changed from a tactical chess battle of attack versus defence to a boxing match of end to end football and within 5mins of their second Berbatov made it 3-1 and looked to have knocked Liverpool onto the canvas.

Not quite out for the count and with the introduction of Paddy Berger to replace our opening scorer we crafted a fine second goal that was expertly finished by the other cool headed Fin on the books, Jari Litmanen. 3-2, we were up off the canvas before the count of ten to deliver Leverkusen a sucker punch with ten minutes to go. We had now reverted to our traditional defensive football but with the missing link and unfortunately there was still one round to go. We were still punch drunk and I’ll never forget the Leverkusen 4th goal. Lucio (centre half) picked the ball up deep and driving forward exchanged passes in the box to slot home and although we tried for a third goal it was out of reach.

After the final whistle I made my way back to the train station for the 20min return trip to Cologne and couldn’t believe how angry I was feeling about how we had scored twice away from home and still lost the tie. I was still replaying the game walking back through Cologne station totally oblivious that our fans had had a welcoming party from some Cologne fans outside and were running back in the opposite direction; probably to escape arrest or attack from some of the meanest looking Police Alsatians I have ever seen. I queued for a drink in the station and by the time I had got to the exit most of the fuss had died down.

Back at the hotel I didn’t fancy any ale and retired early. I couldn’t sleep though, I couldn’t believe that Houllier had made the decision to trade blows with a very dangerous Leverkusen. I was still unaware that substituting Hamann was tactical until the following day when returning home otherwise I would have climbed the walls. That was it for me, Houllier had cost us a place in the semi finals of the most prestigious club competition in the world; he had deprived me of the feelings that were beginning to stir after a slumber of almost seventeen years when we last lifted ol’ big ears.

That was the first of many increasingly startling decisions made under Houllier including the decision to sign Diouf and Diao ahead of Nicolas Anelka. The writing was on the wall, he couldn’t make the transition tactically or transfers necessary to take us to the next step. In fact he collected players like stamps continually trying to find the elusive Penny Black. He had though taken the club forward, won trophies including the amazing treble and dragged us on from being Spice Boys to a professional outfit and for that Mr Houllier I thank you.

Three years on and I couldn’t believe it. Less than twelve months earlier we had appointed our second foreign coach in the guise of Rafael Benitez, the perennial thorn in the side of Real Madrid and Barcelona, who had taken the unfashionable Valencia to two La Liga titles – no mean feat.

I had a smile as wide as the King’s Tunnel as I soaked up the atmosphere of a vibrant Taksim Square. The second leg of my pilgrimage had begun from a Southern Turkey hotel several hours earlier. This was it I could taste the polish on the biggest trophy in club football. Against the odds we were in our sixth final beating the likes of Juventus, buy-a-title Chelsea and a now blunt Bayer Leverkusen who’s stars of 2002 had moved on to bigger and better things, along the way. We had been on a roller coaster ride against Olympiacos and beaten La Coruna away in the group stages and the belief etched in the faces of fellow reds could be seen a mile off.

I’ll never forget that square mile of land on the European side of Istanbul, like I’ll never forget the square in Dortmund. They both represent the end of a long journey, the closing of a gap that saw Liverpool’s re emergence at the top of Europe’s elite. The only one to better Istanbul was Rome ’77 because you never forget your first as they say. ’77 was the pinnacle of a journey started by the great Bill Shankly and continued by Bob Paisley and Istanbul was the continuation of a journey started by Gerard Houllier. Gerard Houllier closed the gap that was looking unbridgeable in terms of European success and now Rafa Benitez had picked up the reigns and moved us on a gear. The only difference between the Shankly, Paisley continuation and the Houllier, Benitez transition is that I believe Bill Shankly would have won the European Cup if he’d stayed on, unlike as I inferred earlier, Houllier had most probably found his summit.

I have many vivid memories of Istanbul but none more so than the coach journey to the Ataturk Stadium. Unlike Leverkusen where for various reasons I was the sole representative of the BCCC (Belgian Cross Country Club formed off the back of cheap flights to Charleroi on Ryanair then onward train travel across Europe via the modern day Transalpino rub out – A 4 € anywhere ticket but that’s another story) there were three of us. The coach was full to the gunnels and with what seemed to be a four pack of Efes to every passenger. The journey must have been over two hours through the Istanbul traffic with relentless singing (take note Kop day trippers) throughout the journey, the joy, the passion, the privilege and the expectation oozed out of that song repertoire. This coupled with watching the people of Istanbul watching us, us watching reds hanging out of taxis (including the boot) and something I’ll never forget – the shop selling wheel trims, thousands of them decking the walls and windows, with the old Turkish guy outside in a Liverpool scarf. I bet there wasn’t a full set between them.

The Ataturk came into sight in the middle of the most baron and desolate land that looked like the surface of Mars. The traffic still at less than walking pace urged reds to disembark from the coaches and make the final half mile on foot. The scene resembled something from biblical times as the end of the pilgrimage came into view with hoards of reds descending on it. We were there; journeys end now just one more battle away from victory.

The party atmosphere at the Liverpool Fanzone was amazing, the stage was invaded, and the queue for the bogs was only marginally bigger than the queue for programmes. This coupled with the European football fan’s travelling urge to mingle with his compatriots on the other side saw us walk round to the Milan Fanzone. It was at this point I realised we outnumbered Milan fans 3-1 or more. At least we found some bogs, beer stalls and food so we could re-fuel. No trouble with the Milan fans not that you would expect any; travelling away with Liverpool is more about forming friendships and sharing mutual respect in comparison with other clubs and the national team whose fans seem to think they must belittle and conquer. We also saw the giant black and red Forza Milan flag rolled up like a giant carpet being taken into the stadium needing about thirty Milanese to carry it with military precision.

In reality the next I knew is that we were 1-0 down; fuck. In a game where the odd goal was going to win it and whoever scored first would more than likely hold on for the boring 1-0 win we already had an uphill task. As the game developed in the early stages though we started to look more settled and started to ask a few questions of Milan so just maybe? You never know. The game settled into the pattern I expected with Milan happy to defend then hit us on the counter when in good possession. This wasn’t going to be easy.

Then, in the blink of an eye, I’m off my seat. I had a clear view of Nesta’s handball to deny Luis Garcia a shot at goal. PENALTY it had to be, where’s the ref, the linesman, the fourth official anyone someone just blow a fuckin’ whistle we are back in it. Meanwhile with the efficiency of a Japanese production line Milan in the form of Kaka, Shevchenko and Crespo were manufacturing a goal with clinical precision. 2-0, we’re done for; its amazing how at the point when all seems lost the effects of the day suddenly weigh heavy. I suddenly felt tired, hung over and a million miles from home. My dream had died and the sense of injustice was massive.

Still in shock just minutes later the dream football of Milan put the final nail in our coffin as Kaka’s pass and Crespo’s finish finally convinced me that we couldn’t live with a team playing this type of fantasy football. Game Over, text messages flooding in.

The half time whistle saw my mate and I (the other 3rd of our party was seated elsewhere) launch a quest to find something to drink; the day had taken its toll and I was in the midst of a full blown hangover with maximum dehydration. The only words being spoken anywhere under those stands was to order beverages otherwise silence. Walking back up the steps a chant of, 4-3 we’re gonna win 4-3… broke out. It raised a smile from me and I joined in now re-lubricated with the most expensive water in Turkey (sorry Steve I think I still owe you for that). Back at our seats we were now joining in one of the most emotional renditions of ‘You’ll Never Walk Alone’ that I can remember. It was total support, it wasn’t a war cry to urge on the troops it was just a show of defiance towards the opposition and appreciation for the manager and players who had taken us this far with just a tint of hope thrown in.

As I was stood on my seat scarf aloft and in full voice I noticed the lonely figure of Dietmar Hamann warming up. It didn’t really register as it normally would; I would usually be trying to second guess the manager’s tactics but they didn’t really matter at 3-0 down to probably the best club side on the planet. It was obvious that we didn’t want to be humiliated and this was a damage limitation exercise.

Shortly after the second half kicked off we were looking much better, more comfortable and we had stopped the attack at will Milan front line from tearing us apart. Didi Hamann was instrumental in this as he had been throughout his career and it never ceases to amaze me when people cannot see the value of this type of player.

We were starting to look dangerous and before long we had our consolation goal with a fantastic header from the captain. It was great having something to celebrate so we made the most of it. Within minutes the game changed, all I saw was Didi Hamann step over the ball and let Vladimir Smicer unleash a shot that nestled into the bottom corner. Ecstasy it was sheer ecstasy, we could all sense the momentum building and the irony, lost on me at the time, that a neat step over by Hamann lead to the goal from Smicer, the player who replaced him in the quarter final second leg in the Bay Arena three years earlier. Two tactical decisions three years apart that helped change the outcome of a game, one tactical genius one tactical folly.

The equaliser was inevitable, we were all over Milan and they were shell shocked, the mood had changed and when Gattuso brought down Gerrard for the penalty we were back. Alonso misses; heart stops momentarily, then the rebound hit the net. Pandemonium broke out; I was miles away from my seat reminiscent of the days on the terraces when the mass just moved around and you found yourself in a completely different part of the stand from where you started.

Milan reacted, they had to, we were tired and it showed and nothing short of heroics from the likes of Carra, Sami even Djimi Traore and the unforgettable Jerzy Dudek. When the famous double save from Shevchenko was made I was taking a time out, sat on my seat and surrounded by the legs of everyone stood on theirs. The only thing I saw was the ball loop up and behind for a corner; just as well or I might have had a heart attack right there and then. It’s a funny feeling but when we went to extra time the longer it went on the more comfortable I felt about it being our year. When it went to penalties I’ve never been more confident in my life and it was just a matter of time before the captain lifted the cup.

We were back were we belong, the best team in Europe and for the rest of the week in Southern Turkey we dissected the game time and time again and lauded the tactical genius of Rafa Benitez, yes you need luck but I’m a firm believer in making your own luck. Didi Hamann is now at Manchester City and currently in his place we have Javier Mascherano the player I believe will go on to be as influential as Dietmar Hamann, I just hope it is at Liverpool and managed by Rafael Benitez. I have faith that he will deliver our 19th League Title but more importantly I have the patience.
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Offline myralfc

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2008, 06:52:11 PM »
That actually made me teary-eyed and put a smile on my face all at the same time.  I think I love you. :)

Online Guz-kop

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2008, 06:58:40 PM »
Good post.

Though I will say something about the 2005 cup win in that the Juve games turned it round for me. I think we got a glimpse of the sort of football the manager has tried to implement at times in the first half at Anfield - fast, quick, a collective destruction job at a high tempo and not allowing the opposition time on the ball. We tired and Juve came back into the game with the away goal but we jumped Juve when they had their eyes closed and they paid for it.

2nd leg was totally different. 3 at the back (where the fuck did that come from? Failed at Newcastle a week before yet the manager decides to stick with it - madness....or genius...), no Hamann, no Gerrard. We had Igor, Djimi and Tony Nunez in the side with Carson, Le Tallec, Warnock, Welsh and Potter on the bench along with Vladi. Not to mention Xabi Alonso had about 45 minutes of football in his belty but turned in a masterclass performance for the whole game. We rode our luck a bit, Baros missed a couple of chances too but we'd stifled Juve and scraped through. Looking at some of the names I've just typed though - Nunez, Biscan, Traore, Le Tallec, Welsh, Potter, Warnock - you have to wonder who the fuck was smiling on us that season. Unbelievable.
It's wonderful, it's marvellous, it's 3-3

Offline Walter Sobchak

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2008, 07:01:50 PM »
great read mate.

the last word being the most important - 'patience'

Looking at some of the names I've just typed though - Nunez, Biscan, Traore, Le Tallec, Welsh, Potter, Warnock - you have to wonder who the fuck was smiling on us that season. Unbelievable.

and to think some people are now questioning rafa's ability to motivate players

Offline a partridge in seat_5c

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2008, 07:09:32 PM »
for the rest of the week in Southern Turkey we dissected the game time and time again and lauded the tactical genius of Rafa Benitez

why ?

playing Kewell instead of Hamann was one of the stupidest football decisions I've ever seen in my life

all the Reds I was with were stunned when they saw Didi wasn't in the first XI, they were literally standing there looking aghast, scratching their heads, Didi had come back from injury and was the number one form player in the squad and fresh as a daisy, and the fucking australian lame duck got a game instead

bringing Hamann on in desperation at half-time with it 0-3 was hardly the mark of a genius

Rafa might have masterminded our way to Istanbul but the Final itself was just a fucking lovely stupid great big mess


as for the other thing, I backed Houllier that night and still do, he said Ballack was getting the better of Hamann physically and that he needed to change it, which was fair enough. Easy to blame the end result on that. There's 2 ways to win a game, stop the opposition or attack them. I don't see people moaning about Smicer coming on in Istanbul. Why can you only attack when you're behind but you have to defend when you're in the lead ? Nah, bollocks to that. That's not The Liverpool Way that I was brought up on.

Offline The Infamous_LFC

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2008, 07:11:57 PM »
That actually made me teary-eyed and put a smile on my face all at the same time.  I think I love you. :)
Your in finish the job BCCC

Offline scouse neapolitan

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2008, 07:20:06 PM »
Excellent, well-written and intelligent post. I hold back from writing half the time [can't be arsed when there's nastiness, and senseless bile], but when there's a piece of genuine skill I have to reply.
Thanks for a nice eloquent read mate, and....... let's learn to be patient.

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2008, 07:25:32 PM »
It's amazing to think that Rafa can win the CL with them players. And now he can't win even win the league with Torres aswell as Gerrard. Well, nevermind it's not over yet. There's only one conclusion any sane person can draw...
He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy!
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Offline wacko jacko

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2008, 07:26:53 PM »
A fucking top class read.
Love hearing stories about that day!
Everyone that is pissed off at the moment as we arent winning as many games as we would like, sit down put on the 'Road to Istanbul' & The Final DVD, that should bring a smile to your face! :)
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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2008, 07:39:25 PM »
Me and me auld mate Stocking Face went to Turkey on a 10 day holiday. There's a million stories I could tell about them 10 days. But to let you know, how much it meant to some people... I bought a ticket for face value off a young Scouse lad outside the ground. Stocking Gob ended up on sitting fuck knows where. I ended up to next to the young fella I got the ticket off, and near me on the other side was who I ended up calling Little Ern.... not a piss take, a show of respect for a fallen Kopite and his brilliant mates who even brought their mates ashes to the final when he had died before being able to get there.
Great great memories. Great great club. And sad as what is happening now is... the club will go on when we are all long gone.
"The issue which has swept down the centuries, and which will have to be fought sooner or later, is the people vs the banks. Lord Acton, Historian, 1834 - 1902.

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Love you Luis, yer mad bastard, yer.

Offline mainstandscouser

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2008, 07:48:21 PM »
why ?

playing Kewell instead of Hamann was one of the stupidest football decisions I've ever seen in my life

all the Reds I was with were stunned when they saw Didi wasn't in the first XI, they were literally standing there looking aghast, scratching their heads, Didi had come back from injury and was the number one form player in the squad and fresh as a daisy, and the fucking australian lame duck got a game instead

bringing Hamann on in desperation at half-time with it 0-3 was hardly the mark of a genius

Rafa might have masterminded our way to Istanbul but the Final itself was just a fucking lovely stupid great big mess


as for the other thing, I backed Houllier that night and still do, he said Ballack was getting the better of Hamann physically and that he needed to change it, which was fair enough. Easy to blame the end result on that. There's 2 ways to win a game, stop the opposition or attack them. I don't see people moaning about Smicer coming on in Istanbul. Why can you only attack when you're behind but you have to defend when you're in the lead ? Nah, bollocks to that. That's not The Liverpool Way that I was brought up on.

At last I've found a post that expresses perfectly what I felt about that unforgettable night in Istanbul.
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Offline fowlergod9

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2008, 07:48:54 PM »
That is a brilliant post. Made me shudder half way through the post.  It brings back such memories.  And the thing that won it, your post that is, is your final comment:
.... but more importantly I have the patience.

Which i wholeheartedly agree with. Thank you.

Offline mainstandscouser

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2008, 07:51:53 PM »
Me and me auld mate Stocking Face went to Turkey on a 10 day holiday. There's a million stories I could tell about them 10 days. But to let you know, how much it meant to some people... I bought a ticket for face value off a young Scouse lad outside the ground. Stocking Gob ended up on sitting fuck knows where. I ended up to next to the young fella I got the ticket off, and near me on the other side was who I ended up calling Little Ern.... not a piss take, a show of respect for a fallen Kopite and his brilliant mates who even brought their mates ashes to the final when he had died before being able to get there.
Great great memories. Great great club. And sad as what is happening now is... the club will go on when we are all long gone.

Top post. As all your posts are mate - it's in your blood as it is mine.
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Offline BCCC

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2008, 08:08:19 PM »
why ?

playing Kewell instead of Hamann was one of the stupidest football decisions I've ever seen in my life

all the Reds I was with were stunned when they saw Didi wasn't in the first XI, they were literally standing there looking aghast, scratching their heads, Didi had come back from injury and was the number one form player in the squad and fresh as a daisy, and the fucking australian lame duck got a game instead

bringing Hamann on in desperation at half-time with it 0-3 was hardly the mark of a genius

Rafa might have masterminded our way to Istanbul but the Final itself was just a fucking lovely stupid great big mess


as for the other thing, I backed Houllier that night and still do, he said Ballack was getting the better of Hamann physically and that he needed to change it, which was fair enough. Easy to blame the end result on that. There's 2 ways to win a game, stop the opposition or attack them. I don't see people moaning about Smicer coming on in Istanbul. Why can you only attack when you're behind but you have to defend when you're in the lead ? Nah, bollocks to that. That's not The Liverpool Way that I was brought up on.

As it happens I agree with what you are saying re Kewell. We were also stunned that he was included in the starting line up. We saw it as a major gamble on fitness grounds rather than tactical and as things panned out the injury jinx struck. I actually wrote a few sentences about it although in true Hollywood fashion it didn't make the final cut mainly because my points were regarding Hamann.

After we had settled down later in the week in Turkey it was one of the major talking points as I'm sure it was all over Merseyside. We decided that Kewell on the wing could exploit the only perceived weakness in the Milan side down the flanks (we had fewer wide options then than we do now). The decision back fired and left us facing a humiliating defeat but under pressure Rafa managed to reorganise the team and turn us into a far more offensive unit whilst nullifying the quick break from Milan.

I acknowledge the Houllier comments post Leverkusen but from where I was sat I (and a good few others) didn't see it that way. They way I see things is that Ged only had one string to his bow and when he tried to do things differently they back fired. Rafa on the other hand seems to think on his feet and gives himself far more options.

There is a saying that man learns more from the mistakes he makes than if he didn't make any mistakes at all. This for me sums up the difference between Benitez and Houllier; Benitez is happy to experiment and most of the time can react quickly when things don't work. On the other hand Houllier never had a plan B and was only comfortable playing one way.

Again it is all speculation and opinion as none of us know all the facts.
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Offline BCCC

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2008, 08:11:35 PM »
That actually made me teary-eyed and put a smile on my face all at the same time.  I think I love you. :)

Steady, the missus reads over my shoulder from time to time.  ;)


I'm glad it was good for you anyway... Now where are the cigarettes?  ::) ;D
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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2008, 08:11:43 PM »
Fucking briliant that mate, thats something ive been trying to say to the kneejerk comments from liverpool fans for months but just couldnt get it out. Exactly what I believe and its exactly my experience from Istanbul, them memories will never go from the first minute of the day in taksim square till the last minute of the NEXT day in taksim square. :thumbup
Rafa IS the man for us so have patience.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2008, 08:13:33 PM by red dean »
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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2008, 08:24:54 PM »
Sad things with these forums is... they end up painting people into a corner. It's not as black as white as "you're either with Rafa or against him."
Even Rafa, being such a deep thinker, would find that ridiculous. I happen to be for the man. I can't see a better alternative. I can't see anyone following on with his great behind the scenes work, scouting especially.
However, I can see if next summer another top notch manager was given his job, this squad and a few bob to bring a few top class players, they could win us the league next season.
Would I like that to happen. No. I've already nailed me colours to Rafa's mast. But if I thought for one minute his leaving would be better for the club, I would pack his bags and drive him the airport meself.
(Que jokes about Rafa's mast)
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Offline myralfc

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2008, 08:26:06 PM »
Steady, the missus reads over my shoulder from time to time.  ;)


I'm glad it was good for you anyway... Now where are the cigarettes?  ::) ;D

Oh, sorry to the missus....was just the first time I smiled today.

Offline Kemlyn 28

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2008, 08:26:34 PM »
great read mate.

the last word being the most important - 'patience'

and to think some people are now questioning rafa's ability to motivate players
  He doesn't have a problem motivating them for European games,however Europe is not the issue at the moment (and won't be until we play Inter),it's the league that counts.

Offline BCCC

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2008, 08:36:30 PM »
Sad things with these forums is... they end up painting people into a corner. It's not as black as white as "you're either with Rafa or against him."
Even Rafa, being such a deep thinker, would find that ridiculous. I happen to be for the man. I can't see a better alternative. I can't see anyone following on with his great behind the scenes work, scouting especially.
However, I can see if next summer another top notch manager was given his job, this squad and a few bob to bring a few top class players, they could win us the league next season.
Would I like that to happen. No. I've already nailed me colours to Rafa's mast. But if I thought for one minute his leaving would be better for the club, I would pack his bags and drive him the airport meself.
(Que jokes about Rafa's mast)

I agree with that but unfortunately when the mud flies people quickly take sides and that's what is happening. The bottom line is, is that we don't know for sure if Rafa will win the league or not but some people have decided he won't and some people think he needs more time. The longer it goes the fewer supporters he will have just like Gerard Houllier.

At this moment I can see the improvement in the squad and the rest of the club so I'd like to see him finish the job but as soon as I see signs that we are not improving then I'll wish him all the best just as I did Houllier.

The turmoil behind the scenes of this great club is disturbing me far more than a draw against Middlesborough at the moment.
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Offline shanklyboy

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2008, 08:40:22 PM »
  He doesn't have a problem motivating them for European games,however Europe is not the issue at the moment (and won't be until we play Inter),it's the league that counts.
So only winning the League is good enough for you?

What would you rather have this season?
Being level on points with Man Utd or Arsenal going into the last game, but losing the league on a goal difference of 1 because they won 2-0 and we won 1-0.
Or being crowned Champions of Europe for the 7th time with a penalty in the 94th minute.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2008, 08:43:54 PM »
Cracking read that mate.
If we get Suarez I'll show my arse in front of a packed Kop.

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2008, 08:48:01 PM »
So only winning the League is good enough for you?

What would you rather have this season?
Being level on points with Man Utd or Arsenal going into the last game, but losing the league on a goal difference of 1 because they won 2-0 and we won 1-0.
Or being crowned Champions of Europe for the 7th time with a penalty in the 94th minute.
Both would be nice
"The issue which has swept down the centuries, and which will have to be fought sooner or later, is the people vs the banks. Lord Acton, Historian, 1834 - 1902.

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Love you Luis, yer mad bastard, yer.

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2008, 08:52:34 PM »
BCCC, you have to remember you are an old hand. You have a good knowledge of the game itself and know the history of our club. I'm not saying it's your duty to educate the kneejerkers and the plain stupid. But I can understand the frustrations of some of the young lads. They have never seen the title paraded around Anfield or the city. Some fear, they never will. So, it's understandble when the spit the dummy after a few bad results. And let's face it - we have looked like shit at times lately.
"The issue which has swept down the centuries, and which will have to be fought sooner or later, is the people vs the banks. Lord Acton, Historian, 1834 - 1902.

www.misternobody.co.uk

Love you Luis, yer mad bastard, yer.

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2008, 08:54:44 PM »
I agree with that but unfortunately when the mud flies people quickly take sides and that's what is happening. The bottom line is, is that we don't know for sure if Rafa will win the league or not but some people have decided he won't and some people think he needs more time. The longer it goes the fewer supporters he will have just like Gerard Houllier.

At this moment I can see the improvement in the squad and the rest of the club so I'd like to see him finish the job but as soon as I see signs that we are not improving then I'll wish him all the best just as I did Houllier.

The turmoil behind the scenes of this great club is disturbing me far more than a draw against Middlesborough at the moment.

And that's just the thing.  There's no way there will be improvements on the pitch as long as all the speculation regarding the stability of the club abounds.  It is far, far past time for the club to publicly put things to rest.  Now is not the time to pick apart the tactics on the pitch.  There are far more important things happening, or not happening as the case may be, in the boardroom that is having a much bigger impact on the club's longterm future.

I just can't stand to see people take each other apart when it's clearly time to show a united front.  Call me an OOTer all you want...but there is a reason I was drawn to Liverpool Football Club all those years ago, the root of which is in the very essence of the entire culture of the city.  To see virtues such as loyalty and patience thrown out the window because every result hasn't gone his way.  To see a man who has clearly shown his unquestionable devotion to the club and the city so easily dismissed and replaced in their eyes with a man who has questionable integrity at best.

Maybe I'm too old and too idealistic.  But this club has and will always mean more to me than a short string of results.  For me, I will continue to support my manager.

Offline shanklyboy

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2008, 08:57:51 PM »
Really enjoyed that. Some shared emotions for all of us I think.
Some not so obvious things jumped out at me though.


I was the sole representative of the BCCC (Belgian Cross Country Club formed off the back of cheap flights to Charleroi on Ryanair then onward train travel across Europe via the modern day Transalpino rub out – A 4 € anywhere ticket but that’s anotherstory.

travelling away with Liverpool is more about forming friendships and sharing mutual respect in comparison with other clubs and the national team whose fans seem to think they must belittle and conquer.



I have faith that he will deliver our 19th League Title but more importantly I have the patience.



I hope that we can win the league under Rafa.
For all the young lads who support the team like veterans.
For all the arl arses who can't get to games anymore.
For the the likes of Carra, Gerrard and to our adopted Scouser Sammi.
For David Moores.
For all the muckrakers, the peddlers of lies, the scaremongerers and the rest of those that are terrified to think we might be supergluing our feet back to our perch.

Mostly though for Benitez himself.
When even our own fans decry some of his achievements.When our Champions League win is dismissed as nothing at times.
For his dignity in victory and defeat. For his love of the City and the Club.

Hopefully some will read your post and see it for what it is, though no doubt there will still be some miserable bastards who just won't get it.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

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Offline shanklyboy

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2008, 09:01:00 PM »
Both would be nice

Typical arl arse Scouse.
Want your cake and eat it with a side order of brasso.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2008, 09:03:41 PM »
BCCC, you have to remember you are an old hand. You have a good knowledge of the game itself and know the history of our club. I'm not saying it's your duty to educate the kneejerkers and the plain stupid. But I can understand the frustrations of some of the young lads. They have never seen the title paraded around Anfield or the city. Some fear, they never will. So, it's understandble when the spit the dummy after a few bad results. And let's face it - we have looked like shit at times lately.

Can you imagine some on here after the trophy is taken around Anfield as it used to be.....lasting 10 mins.
"Fucksake....is that it.........that's shite"...."The Mancs would have done it better"
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

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Offline Peeker

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2008, 09:12:15 PM »
The problem we have though we nobody seems to realise is that we are now right in the middle of a major scrap for that 4th spot like Villa, City, Everton and if we dont make it...which looks extremely possible.....then many of our players may well leave.

The key to improving is to get all this background shit sorted out. I want G and H to make a televised announcement of sly sports about whether or not they are backing him...YES OR NO. Then we the fans know whats going on at least in regards to the manager.

Offline BCCC

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2008, 09:20:37 PM »
BCCC, you have to remember you are an old hand. You have a good knowledge of the game itself and know the history of our club. I'm not saying it's your duty to educate the kneejerkers and the plain stupid. But I can understand the frustrations of some of the young lads. They have never seen the title paraded around Anfield or the city. Some fear, they never will. So, it's understandble when the spit the dummy after a few bad results. And let's face it - we have looked like shit at times lately.

I know my son was one the last time we won the league so I have to calm his frustrations now.

Btw all you youngsters the last time we won the league the mancs finished 13th with a minus goal difference just above their city rivals on goal difference. We'll be back.
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Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2008, 10:56:39 PM »

as for the other thing, I backed Houllier that night and still do, he said Ballack was getting the better of Hamann physically and that he needed to change it, which was fair enough. Easy to blame the end result on that. There's 2 ways to win a game, stop the opposition or attack them. I don't see people moaning about Smicer coming on in Istanbul. Why can you only attack when you're behind but you have to defend when you're in the lead ? Nah, bollocks to that. That's not The Liverpool Way that I was brought up on.

That's the way I read it as well. I had thought i was i the minority. They were opening us up so much whilst Hamman was still on the pitch, it was only a matter of time before they scored. Ged did the right thing by taking him off and putting a more offensive stance to the team. He reckoned that the way to beat them would be to try and out score them, and not try and keep them out. It would have worked as well if Owen had found the back of the net. But unlike many reds, I don't blame Ged for what he did.
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Offline woof

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #31 on: January 14, 2008, 01:54:52 AM »
It's nice to be reminded of what happened in Istanbul again but let's move on. Move on in a way that will bring improvements every year until we reach the summit. I'm certainly old enough to understand the frustrations, agony as well as the jubilations of our success. To state my credentials, I've been around long enough to have seen us lifting the Premiership title several times when Liverpool FC was at its very best. I've also seen the worst periods - Souness, Evans.

Like most supporters of any football or sporting club, I want to see improvements every year and take us closer to the top. I feel that Rafa is doing exactly that, especially in the league where he struggles most. With another major tweak, we should be getting closer next season

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #32 on: January 14, 2008, 02:05:10 AM »
Any chance you could stick that in an email
and send it FAO Tom Hicks and Mr George Gillett?
Might give them a dose of reality.

Superb read. Well done mate.
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Offline coffeehead

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #33 on: January 14, 2008, 02:33:39 AM »
Great post, brilliantly written and very evocative, even though my views are probably closer to Partridge's on the question of the Kewell/Hamann situation in that game.

I do so want Rafa to win the title with us; in fact I want to be able to visit the New Anfield in twenty years time and see his statue up there along with Bob and Shanks due to his record fifteen League titles and ten European Cups with the club :)

Will he get the backing to do so? That's one question. Does he actually have the ability to do so? That, whether we like to admit it or not, is another. To claim he definitely can/will is as much folly as to say he definitely can't /won't.

We can only hope and support and sing.

Offline coffeehead

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #34 on: January 14, 2008, 02:34:06 AM »
Sad things with these forums is... they end up painting people into a corner. It's not as black as white as "you're either with Rafa or against him."
Even Rafa, being such a deep thinker, would find that ridiculous. I happen to be for the man. I can't see a better alternative. I can't see anyone following on with his great behind the scenes work, scouting especially.
However, I can see if next summer another top notch manager was given his job, this squad and a few bob to bring a few top class players, they could win us the league next season.
Would I like that to happen. No. I've already nailed me colours to Rafa's mast. But if I thought for one minute his leaving would be better for the club, I would pack his bags and drive him the airport meself.
(Que jokes about Rafa's mast)
It's like you're reading my mind, man :)

Offline theCanadian

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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #35 on: January 14, 2008, 03:40:02 AM »
Stunning post BCCC, thanks for a great tale.
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Re: Agony, Ecstasy and Tactical Genius
« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2008, 10:31:49 AM »
Can't really be arsed reading melodramatic shite on these boards normally, but that was brilliant.

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