Author Topic: Rafa  (Read 89065 times)

Offline Crackerjack Sam

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1320 on: January 12, 2008, 10:17:47 PM »
he knows the majority of us are behind him. shame its not us who sign the cheques and wage slips eh.
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Offline Spanish Fan

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1321 on: January 12, 2008, 10:20:48 PM »
For me the problem for Benitez it is always going to be finding hardworking players with enough quality. The fact that after 4 seasons he stills insists with Riise as left mifielder shows how much he values workrate. The problem is that there are not wingers who have the quality of Ronaldo and work like Riise, or second strikers who work like Kuyt and have the quality of Kaka. He either has to favour one, and going for quality would certainly imply a change of style, keeping the now frequent long ball to a minimum, and that would mean that few or none of the players who finished today's game at the back should be in Liverpool's plans.
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Offline graham_mck

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1322 on: January 12, 2008, 10:21:33 PM »
Rafa has given me one of the greatest nights of my life....   and i thank him for that....  the problem is..  if i was just a football fan, i wouldn't watch liverpool play...  its painful watching them at the moment....   how many moments of class in the boro game...  2, maybe 3....  who on the team can now drift past a player and put in a telling ball...??  who has the grit and determination to put fear into the opposition and win the midfield....  how do we play now...  long ball after long ball....   the sign of a lack of ideas, and then we drop our biggest striker from the squad....

if u were picking a team of the premiership, how many liverpool players would be in there??   2, maybe 3??   thats just not good enough to win the league....   who are our match winners?  we need 4 maybe 5....  we probably have 2, but Gerrard is sulking cos alonso is back in the middle...
that leaves us with Torres....  he is class...

Offline ¡Basta Ya!

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1323 on: January 12, 2008, 10:23:42 PM »

Except that's complete bollocks. 6 or 7 players at £6-7 million that's between 36 and 49 million a year...

You're just making yourself look an utter prat mate.

No only that (although deffo including) but the reason he has made a higher number of signings is because he's had to rebuild a whole squad with limited funds.

Only now are we getting to the stage where we can start to buy just one or two players in the window that have top quality. There is no point having 1 amazing striker with utter shite players around... surely anyone that has watched football for a sustained period understands the concept of building a team.

It can't be done overnight without incredible funds.
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Offline ringo1974

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1324 on: January 12, 2008, 10:25:54 PM »
But we already have a good team , i believe as good as man utd, look at our spine to their's i wouldn't swap any of our players , isn't a manager meant to manage .He has quality players already .You will never find a team of 11 world class players Never!

Offline paul090971

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1325 on: January 12, 2008, 10:26:26 PM »
boring hard working players, Houlier had them, and Rafa now. Not enough quality going forward.  We fail to score goals in enough matches.  We fail to score in about 8 goals a season.  United & Arsenal & Chelsea fail to score in a couple of matches. So we drop points then and then loose to those 3 sides.

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1326 on: January 12, 2008, 10:27:40 PM »
But we already have a good team , i believe as good as man utd, look at our spine to their's i wouldn't swap any of our players , isn't a manager meant to manage .He has quality players already .You will never find a team of 11 world class players Never!

United have certain players that we just don't have at the moment. A top quality wide player and someone to play alongside the main striker. If we can get those two or three really exciting players then we'll be a match for anyone.
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Offline Steve O

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1327 on: January 12, 2008, 10:28:58 PM »
I assume you mean Bob Paisley, the only manager who's ever won three European Cups. Did he think the League was more important? I donlt know but I know the pinnacle of his achievement was winning those Cups and not the League.

The fact that he had to win the league first, to get in to the European Cup, must make it more important.

Back to the current day, G&H need to back him or sack him. Keeping him on because they are not sure won't help anyone.

Their choices are

A) Back him and give him the money he needs to get top players

B) Keep him for now but tell him to shop at Primark

C) Sack him and get someone else in, who would probably demand a sizable transfer fund before coming

My first choice includes Rafa, unfortunately so does my last.

Offline paul090971

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1328 on: January 12, 2008, 10:29:29 PM »
""Only now are we getting to the stage where we can start to buy just one or two players in the window that have top quality. There is no point having 1 amazing striker with utter shite players around... surely anyone that has watched football for a sustained period understands the concept of building a team. ""

isnt that what we have now??

Offline Paul JH

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1329 on: January 12, 2008, 10:31:00 PM »
But we already have a good team , i believe as good as man utd, look at our spine to their's i wouldn't swap any of our players , isn't a manager meant to manage .He has quality players already .You will never find a team of 11 world class players Never!

Man Utd have Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez as an attacking Unit.
If we compare position for position we have Torres, Kewell and Kuyt (Voronin and Crouch).  Even if we said we have Gerrard, Torres and whomever, it's not enough.

They just don't compare. We need another world-class winger chippingin with goals and at least another world class striker to go with Torres. IF Benitez is allowed to sign two world class attacking players in the summer (and I mean his first choices if he can get them) then we MAY compare with Utd's attacking unit.

Until then we will always be playing catch up to players of that calibre.
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Offline Rizla

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1330 on: January 12, 2008, 10:32:17 PM »
But we already have a good team , i believe as good as man utd, look at our spine to their's i wouldn't swap any of our players , isn't a manager meant to manage .He has quality players already .You will never find a team of 11 world class players Never!

Goalie...yep

Defence...when Agger is playing, maybe, when he isnt...nope. Out wide, Finnan showing his age, Aurelio always struggling with injury, Riise...need I say more? Not a match for Evra/ Neville

Midfield. Centrally we are competitive and have a edge but not a huge one, out wide Man U have Ronaldo who wil score over 30 this year on the right, Giggs with much needed experience will chip in with many assists and a good half dozen goals...Pennant and Kewell would be lucky to get 1 between them come the end

Striker. Torres, and...? Man U have Tevez and Rooney, a burgeoning partnership that is really starting to produce dividends

We arent even close right now sadly as a team or in terms of attacking flair

Offline ringo1974

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1331 on: January 12, 2008, 10:33:26 PM »
United have certain players that we just don't have at the moment. A top quality wide player and someone to play alongside the main striker. If we can get those two or three really exciting players then we'll be a match for anyone.

I still think crouch can offer a support strikers role , at least for now, what are we looking for another kenny or peter B , very difficult to find me thinks , maybe babbel

Offline paul090971

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1332 on: January 12, 2008, 10:35:40 PM »
same old story really... 3 and a half years later and again the team is full on hard working players with no skill or goal threat

Offline ringo1974

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1333 on: January 12, 2008, 10:37:35 PM »
Goalie...yep

Defence...when Agger is playing, maybe, when he isnt...nope. Out wide, Finnan showing his age, Aurelio always struggling with injury, Riise...need I say more? Not a match for Evra/ Neville

Midfield. Centrally we are competitive and have a edge but not a huge one, out wide Man U have Ronaldo who wil score over 30 this year on the right, Giggs with much needed experience will chip in with many assists and a good half dozen goals...Pennant and Kewell would be lucky to get 1 between them come the end

Striker. Torres, and...? Man U have Tevez and Rooney, a burgeoning partnership that is really starting to produce dividends

We arent even close right now sadly as a team or in terms of attacking flair

Nevillie injured and according to rumours looks like a replacement is being lined up
Evra rotated and has picked up injuries Aurelio if he gets a decent run will be as good

up front here  lies a problem , gerrad in that role?Babel as i have said before what are we looking for ?

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1334 on: January 12, 2008, 10:38:24 PM »
For me the problem for Benitez it is always going to be finding hardworking players with enough quality. The fact that after 4 seasons he stills insists with Riise as left mifielder shows how much he values workrate. The problem is that there are not wingers who have the quality of Ronaldo and work like Riise, or second strikers who work like Kuyt and have the quality of Kaka. He either has to favour one, and going for quality would certainly imply a change of style, keeping the now frequent long ball to a minimum, and that would mean that few or none of the players who finished today's game at the back should be in Liverpool's plans.

Even if Rafa did ignore work rate, he's still unlikely to find a player of the quality of Kaká or Ronaldo, let's be honest.

same old story really... 3 and a half years later and again the team is full on hard working players with no skill or goal threat

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Offline TSC

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1335 on: January 12, 2008, 10:38:35 PM »
Irrespective of finances and the embarrassment re manager and owners fall out.  Let's focus on players available and tactics.

How does Riise still command a starting place?  He's been awful all season, and arguably for two seasons.

Where's Crouch?  Why does he hardly get a game when Kuyt and Voronin can't hit a barn door (note Voronin's attempts to do the basics today, ditto Kuyt v Luton)?

Why do we not seem to be 'let loose' until last third of a match, invariably when we're behind?

Fuck the opponents.  Just go out and play - let them worry about us.

Mancs win most games because they steam into a game.  We wait and see what the opposition have to offer before doing anything.

Offline paul090971

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1336 on: January 12, 2008, 10:39:15 PM »
hey ringo, I think your right about Crouch, most people I know think your right, only one guy in Liverpool with a goatie thinks your wrong.

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1337 on: January 12, 2008, 10:39:40 PM »

Why are so many people with a small number of posts in this thread lately ?

Offline Rizla

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1338 on: January 12, 2008, 10:42:33 PM »
Nevillie injured and according to rumours looks like a replacement is being lined up
Evra rotated and has picked up injuries Aurelio if he gets a decent run will be as good

up front here  lies a problem , gerrad in that role?Babel as i have said before what are we looking for ?

Evra is a fair bit younger than Fabio who has already had a snapped Achilles

Yep, would like to see Rafa play Babel with Torres sooner rather than later, but like what Ferguson has done with his talented young players at man U he wants to bring him on gradually and he's not quite at the level of Man U's forwards yet

Which is precisely why Rafa shouldnt be fired whilst the team and it's players are still a work in progress, like Babel. We arent even close to being the finished article, there is too much averageness still there, much of which Rafa either inherited or was forced to buy because we couldnt allow him to buy anyone better due to lack of money

Offline BazC

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1339 on: January 12, 2008, 10:42:42 PM »
I still think crouch can offer a support strikers role , at least for now, what are we looking for another kenny or peter B , very difficult to find me thinks , maybe babbel

Based on what? Crouch has always done best when he gets into the box. He's too slow to be a support striker- he may control a pass brilliantly and spread the ball wide showing great vision and skill, but will he be able to beat a defender to the following ball from the wide player?

We need a support striker who's got a bit more drive- like Gerrard/Rooney to keep involved with the attack.


Offline Bob Loblaw

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1340 on: January 12, 2008, 10:43:47 PM »
Just answer one question.

Are we any closer to winning the league than we were 3 years ago?

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1341 on: January 12, 2008, 10:45:48 PM »
Just answer one question.

Are we any closer to winning the league than we were 3 years ago?

Yes.
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Offline graham_mck

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1342 on: January 12, 2008, 10:46:47 PM »
because we have an opinion...    because our style of play is crap...  because even us quiet ones are now getting frustrated.... 

our other problem is that we are comparing ourselves to Utd..  other than goal differnece, we could be in 8th position...  8th!!  i think that is worth a comment

Offline TSC

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1343 on: January 12, 2008, 10:50:57 PM »
Just answer one question.

Are we any closer to winning the league than we were 3 years ago?

Based on points I can't rem how many we where behind 3 yrs ago post Xmas, and can't be assed to find out.  I've always wanted us to have a realistic chance come Easter, which hasn't been the case for years.  I doubt it will this year either unless some massive turnaround happens.  

So no.

But if you're alluding to Rafa not being the man to do so then I couldn't tell you who could do a better job at this point in time.

Our bigger concerns eminate from the boardroom and ownership to be honest.  Fuck knows what's going to happen there.

Offline RayO'Biscan

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1344 on: January 12, 2008, 10:52:20 PM »
Why are so many people with a small number of posts in this thread lately ?

Invasion of some sad Mancs.
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Offline Foxhawk

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1345 on: January 12, 2008, 10:52:33 PM »
Just answer one question.

Are we any closer to winning the league than we were 3 years ago?

Yes.  You can't just look at the table now, look at the table then, and then make a decision.   Being close to the title means more than having a good record; it also means having a capable organization.  We're slacking in the table at the moment, but the organization has evolved.

Offline myralfc

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1346 on: January 12, 2008, 10:53:09 PM »
And why is it that so many can't manage to recognize how much the league, itself, has transformed over the last few years?  The Premiership is arguably competing for the highest quality league in the world.  Just look at the statistics and the records of the past 10 seasons and show me exactly how we are not better off now than under GH or Evans!  I would just love to see any justifications based on fact rather than misinterpretation or moaning.

Offline Rizla

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1347 on: January 12, 2008, 10:53:33 PM »
Why are so many people with a small number of posts in this thread lately ?


Often with dodgy spelling, grammar and punctuation skills too

coincidence?  ;)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1348 on: January 12, 2008, 10:59:22 PM »
because we have an opinion...    because our style of play is crap...  because even us quiet ones are now getting frustrated.... 

our other problem is that we are comparing ourselves to Utd..  other than goal differnece, we could be in 8th position...  8th!!  i think that is worth a comment

How could we be in 8th? 7th maybe and our goal difference is miles better (+21) than the others on 39 because our defence has only conceded 14 goals.  We also have a game in hand...
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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1349 on: January 12, 2008, 11:00:03 PM »
Unfortunately, the amounts spent on singular players by Man U and Chelsea have really made the Premier League into 'Fantasy Football'.  In this period, we have still managed to pick up silverware on a regular basis.  We have proved our pedigree in European competition, which has always been seen as the pinnacle of club football achievement.

Our one failing has been the League.  And whilst some will say 'it's our bread and butter', we cannot criticise Rafa for delivering 'cream cakes' - the fancy competitions - in the mean time.

If people want to know the reasons why Rafa has spent six to seven million quid on various targets, I suggest they look back at the Noel White episode, because his quotes show that Rafa was not given money to spend as he wished, but made to buy quantity cheap.


Offline ringo1974

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1350 on: January 12, 2008, 11:01:36 PM »
Why are so many people with a small number of posts in this thread lately ?


Well for me it is because i live in Australia and actually have some spare time this morning.

Offline Sweet Silver Song

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1351 on: January 12, 2008, 11:01:42 PM »
No only that (although deffo including) but the reason he has made a higher number of signings is because he's had to rebuild a whole squad with limited funds.

Only now are we getting to the stage where we can start to buy just one or two players in the window that have top quality. There is no point having 1 amazing striker with utter shite players around... surely anyone that has watched football for a sustained period understands the concept of building a team.

It can't be done overnight without incredible funds.

I disagree with the constant we are only one or two players away line that I have constantly heard this season. We are not, we are several more players away than that. Just take a look at our forward line. Apart from Torres what else have we got? Any team needing to mount a credible championship challenge needs a 3 or 4 strikers to call upon throughout the season. We haven't got that. We need to replace all 3, just to sort that element out.

If you take away the main striker from every team in the premiership and compare the other 3, which Premiership squads are actally worse than us? IMHO

Derby, Fulham, Birmingham, Wigan, Bolton, Middlesborough and Reading. And that's about it.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1352 on: January 12, 2008, 11:02:26 PM »
Noel White!... it's easy to forget just how much shit Rafa has had to put up with...
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Offline ringo1974

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1353 on: January 12, 2008, 11:05:43 PM »
Based on what? Crouch has always done best when he gets into the box. He's too slow to be a support striker- he may control a pass brilliantly and spread the ball wide showing great vision and skill, but will he be able to beat a defender to the following ball from the wide player?

We need a support striker who's got a bit more drive- like Gerrard/Rooney to keep involved with the attack.

If we play Crouch in say a five game spell and things are no better what have lost ,he is a far better option than the other 2 , if he plays well and we do decide to sell him then we would get more money.





Offline graham_mck

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1354 on: January 12, 2008, 11:07:16 PM »
ur right 7th...   not the liverpool standard even mentioning 7th....  game in hand is against west ham - easy 3 pts.... 

Offline redpuma

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1355 on: January 12, 2008, 11:07:46 PM »
Based on what? Crouch has always done best when he gets into the box. He's too slow to be a support striker- he may control a pass brilliantly and spread the ball wide showing great vision and skill, but will he be able to beat a defender to the following ball from the wide player?

We need a support striker who's got a bit more drive- like Gerrard/Rooney to keep involved with the attack.










Crouch scores bloody goals.Voronin and Kuyt don't

Offline sionisred

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1356 on: January 12, 2008, 11:10:49 PM »
The way I see it is that if we would swap teams with ManU do you think we would play like they do? Do you think Rafa would allow them to move off the ball like Ferguson allows them to? Do you think Ronaldo would be as prolific? Do you think we would be as fluent going forward? Today I saw Utd counter attack at 0-0 and 6-7 red shirts stormed in Newcastle's penalty box...with us it's usually 2 or 3, usually just 2 though.

Babel's interview hit me though when he talked about Rafa's tactical and defensive approach prior to premierleague games and that Rafa puts 100% emphasis on defensive duties. You'll never win the premierleague with that mentality unless you have the equivalent attacking talent of Joe Cole, Arjen Robben, Damien Duff and Didier Drogba (and Lampard).

Rafa, in his 4th season, has shown me that he just doesn't have a clue about what it takes to win these kind of games consistently. Defensive minded tactics and patient buildup wins you cup competitions but in the league these things go out the window and as Rafa's record suggests against the teams in the bottom half of the table that is the case.

Rafa can complain all he wants about Utd or Chelsea's spending but he's spent an awful lot himself and comfortably outspent the likes of Wigan, Reading, Birmingham and Boro that if he feels his team doesn't have the quality to beat them, apart from Torres and Agger, every player he's bought since 2006 has been a waste of money!

One last thing: Isn't it hypocritical that a lot of people on here say that Mourinho only won the PL because of his expenditure instead of his managerial skills yet the same people complain that Rafa can't win the league because he hasn't had the same financial baking as Mourinho?

Offline TSC

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1357 on: January 12, 2008, 11:12:26 PM »
I disagree with the constant we are only one or two players away line that I have constantly heard this season. We are not, we are several more players away than that.

But this comparison does the rounds across the boards every season.  Always read/hear the line when reality kicks in every season that we're not going to be challenging post Xmas.  'We're 2,3,4, players short'.  

Every season it gets trotted out.  This time next year no doubt we'll be '2,3, or 4' short of competing.

It grinds you down.

Offline TSC

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1358 on: January 12, 2008, 11:20:09 PM »
Noel White!... it's easy to forget just how much shit Rafa has had to put up with...

This relates to an important point.  The entire running of the club has been dire on all levels since Robinson departed.  All of the key decisions that drive a business have been lacking.  Falling behind to mancs when sky took over the world.  Revenue joke re merchandise down the years.  Ticketing fiascos with the phone lines etc.

The fucking takeover takes the biscuit.  2 years touting what was and still is one of the biggest clubs in the world (in terms of success) and they end up getting that wrong.  Fucking unbelievable.  A scandal.  Shocking.  Such incompetence in industry would see someone like Rick pack his bags.

It's not all down to rick as incompetence was inherent prior to his arrival, but how he's still in a job today I don't know.

Offline Macedonian_Red

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1359 on: January 12, 2008, 11:23:24 PM »
Just answer one question.

Are we any closer to winning the league than we were 3 years ago?

What do you think ?