Topic: Javi Garcia

[Roy The Red]

Just what we are in dire need of, a defensive midfielder.

[ThisIsMickey]

Not needed. We're crowded with CMs.

but Rafa wants to hear us singing the Sangria song again

[Strawberry Fields]

Maybe.... he'll sell sissoko during Jan or next summer (he is poor).
Or maybe (hopefuly not) Masch won't stay after loan period.

Anyway you can never know what's going through Rafa's mind.

[jrewing]

Bring me the head of Javi Garcia.

[Notayesman]

Someone more in the know will correct me if it's untrue but I heard a few days ago that Barnett is having trials at newcastle due to all the players that have been brought in, apparently on the premise that you can now play more than eleven players in a match at any one time and that the reserve schedule has doubled in size.

To lose an (imo) immensely promising homegrown midfielder because you've been paying money for young/reserve players all over europe, well, I'd suggest that may qualify as 'something wrong.'

Well given that its only 'your' opinion that Barnett is immensley promising answers the question. The fact is the coaching staff obviously see something in this kid Garcia that maybe they don't see in Barnett. While Barnett may be immensly promising (in your opinion) this guy could be the next big player. I presume you didn't have a problem with them recruiting Hobbs?  Its not reason enough to not sign a promising youngster from abroad. So no it definitely doesn't qualify as something wrong!


I'm actually amazed at the amount of negativity in relation to this signing, and I'd suggest that if it was a young English player we wouldn't be seeing it. What if this guy ends up being the new Mascherano and United or Chelsea signed him instead? What if Wenger had said 'ah, we don't need Fabregas, there's plenty of kids here that might make the grade'? There's absolutely nothing wrong with having a strong reserve/youth squad. If we sign Garcia and in a few seasons he's starting to look the business and challenging, you can offload an older established player for a pretty sweet sum safe in the knowledge that you've a kid familiar with the club and the team ready to come in a do the same job at the same level.

If the homegrown talents are good enough they'll make it, if they're not they won't.

[jrewing]

If the homegrown talents are good enough they'll make it, if they're not they won't.

Too right - can someone please find me en example of a player young we've stiffled (or any club has) who has then gone on become a top class footballer?

There's loads of lads who'll say that's happened to them but it's just excuses. If you're good enough to become a trainee, and then don't make it to becoming a pro, or if you're a young pro and don't get into the 1st team setup - it's because there's someone better than you at the club.  Simple as. Ask Paul Jewel. 

[Rafadom]

we dont stiffle talent at all, we just outgrow the talent at the momment, were on the rise at the momment at a very quick rate i never thought i would see the day we could just see Momo go and then some bright hungry talent that seems to better will come in.

I really do hope we get Garcia he is a great talent allround from attacking to defending, great passer of the ball as well, something we need a bit more of.

We have never really had a great passing side since around 1996 possibly 1997, to have that back again with a great defence would be truly great.

[Gnurglan]

Too right - can someone please find me en example of a player young we've stiffled (or any club has) who has then gone on become a top class footballer?

There's loads of lads who'll say that's happened to them but it's just excuses. If you're good enough to become a trainee, and then don't make it to becoming a pro, or if you're a young pro and don't get into the 1st team setup - it's because there's someone better than you at the club.  Simple as. Ask Paul Jewel. 

I disagree. Unless you have a world class youngster, you can always find reasons why you shouldn't give him his first few games. Perhaps we have never given them the chances they needed. Perhaps we didn't have the necessary patience. It's a long process to develop a player.

Take our CM situation. Explain to me how a young CM is gonna make it if we have Alonso, Mascherano, Gerrard, Lucas, Sissoko and Javi Garcia competing for two places.

It's impossible. Because of the way we have put together our squad. IMO we only need four of those players and even that could be one too many.
Guthrie? Spearing? Is that their reward? Is that the staff's reward? Nurture players over a few years. Make them good enough for the 1st team squad, then watch how we don't give a damn and they're 7th pick for CM at an age where they shall make their break. They're off on loan and then we tell them to leave.

Look how Ferguson has assembled his squad over the years. He doesn't keep a huge squad. He always has room for talented young players. It's served them well. This idea also allows the Mancs to spend their money on 1st team players rather than backup players.

[FernandoTorrestieri]

Rafa isn't stupid at all. If the homegrowns are good enough he wouldn't be buying these kids. Alas, Lindfield and the others are apparently not good enough for Liverpool football.

[Acaustiq]

Well given that its only 'your' opinion that Barnett is immensley promising answers the question. The fact is the coaching staff obviously see something in this kid Garcia that maybe they don't see in Barnett. While Barnett may be immensly promising (in your opinion) this guy could be the next big player. I presume you didn't have a problem with them recruiting Hobbs?  Its not reason enough to not sign a promising youngster from abroad. So no it definitely doesn't qualify as something wrong!

My opinion, that of the manager who signed him to a professional contract at 17 oh and apparently Dave Usher who goes to pretty much every reserve and u18 game, who described Barnett as thus;

Of the u18 side, there's loads who could have a chance depending on how they progress in the next 2 years. In terms of pure talent, I'd say Charlie Barnett is the most gifted.

So apparently not 'only' my opinion.

The kid's a two time FA youth cup winner who can twat them in from twenty five plus yards and now he may be off for £125k because the manager, (who as much as no one will consider it, is possibly playing the numbers game) has brought in too many players. He also happens to be the best corner taker currently at the club, but it's not like Liverpool have ever had problems with corners.

Concurrently, what if Barnett turns out to be the next big player for newcastle or wherever he ends up ? You're £1875000 and a very good player down.

And no, I didn't have a problem with Hobb's because at the time the u18's were dominated by average players who had, for the most part stagnated because the first team were too poor to allow them to ever get a chance barring a toytown injury crisis.

If the homegrown talents are good enough they'll make it, if they're not they won't.

Do you really need to be told about the players who Liverpool have let get away over the years ?

Anderson and Hammill, the two biggest attacking talents to come out of the academy/hull city in the past who knows how long have yet to get their chance in a competitive first team game, despite the fact the likes of el-zhar have. I'd like to think he's building them up to introduce them at the right moment because he doesn't want to throw them into a nothing CL/League cup game but who knows at this point, they could go out on loan, find themselves further down the pecking order because of some 'next big thing' from Castilla or Barcelona B and just never come back.

[mjjason]

Do you really need to be told about the players who Liverpool have let get away over the years ?

Can you name these players that we have let go that have been amazing at other clubs?

Though I would have to admit that I would prefer a local youth player to be given a chance over a foreign player.  Nothing against foreign players but a club should always have connections to its community and should make it priority one to give local youth a fair chance.

[AnotherSpanishfan]

find themselves further down the pecking order because of some 'next big thing' from Castilla or Barcelona B and just never come back.

The irony is that the same issue is talked about in Spain(about not giving homegrown talent enough of a chance) and a lot of times those kids form Castilla or Barcelona B have to leave elsewhere because they reckon they get a chance at more money or have a better shot at making it away from their home clubs.

[toshi]

[OOT]  AnotherSpanishFan : How is Luis these days....?

[Acaustiq]

Can you name these players that we have let go that have been amazing at other clubs?

Kenny Dalglish, Wayne Rooney, David Nugent, Joey Barton, Kevin Nolan, Damien Duff, Allegedly, not all of them were Academy players some had trials and you passed them up.

It's not just the ones you've let go that have gone on to do x, y and z you want to be concerned with, it's the likes of Welsh and Mellor, there never seems to be any reflection on what went wrong, why did the captain of the england u-20 side and a record breaking striker not make it ? It's a very crass conveyor belt, just get rid of them and try again with some other kids and if they don't work out, ah well, there's always more.

The irony is that the same issue is talked about in Spain(about not giving homegrown talent enough of a chance) and a lot of times those kids form Castilla or Barcelona B have to leave elsewhere because they reckon they get a chance at more money or have a better shot at making it away from their home clubs.

All comes down to the pressures on top clubs I suppose, same with Liverpool, can you afford to take a chance on someone who could make a mistake that'll cost you when when you can bring in someone else already proven ?

Like Mark Gonzalez.

Here's the thing that annoys me the most, If madrid dont think Garcia is as good as Diarra, Emerson or Gago then he's not as good as Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano or quite probably Leiva, what's the point ?

[Notayesman]

My opinion, that of the manager who signed him to a professional contract at 17 oh and apparently Dave Usher who goes to pretty much every reserve and u18 game, who described Barnett as thus;

So apparently not 'only' my opinion.

And people used to say the same thing about Richie Partridge. And Luke Chadwick was supposed to be the new Ryan Giggs when he was a youth at United.

The kid's a two time FA youth cup winner who can twat them in from twenty five plus yards and now he may be off for £125k because the manager, (who as much as no one will consider it, is possibly playing the numbers game) has brought in too many players. He also happens to be the best corner taker currently at the club, but it's not like Liverpool have ever had problems with corners..

You're not suggest we fast track him into the first team to take corners are you?

Concurrently, what if Barnett turns out to be the next big player for newcastle or wherever he ends up ? You're £1875000 and a very good player down.

And no, I didn't have a problem with Hobb's because at the time the u18's were dominated by average players who had, for the most part stagnated because the first team were too poor to allow them to ever get a chance barring a toytown injury crisis.

Do you really need to be told about the players who Liverpool have let get away over the years ?

Anderson and Hammill, the two biggest attacking talents to come out of the academy/hull city in the past who knows how long have yet to get their chance in a competitive first team game, despite the fact the likes of el-zhar have. I'd like to think he's building them up to introduce them at the right moment because he doesn't want to throw them into a nothing CL/League cup game but who knows at this point, they could go out on loan, find themselves further down the pecking order because of some 'next big thing' from Castilla or Barcelona B and just never come back.

I think its clear here that its not a problem with bringing in kids from other clubs that you have, its a problem with foreign kids. And thats not even an arguement.

And what if he does? The coaching staff will make that decision. If they think he's good enough to cut it here they'll do their best to persuade him to stay, if he still wants to go the Newcsatle then I'm afraid thats his decision, and has to be taken in part because he believes he won't make it at Liverpool which is his problem really.

Look how Ferguson has assembled his squad over the years. He doesn't keep a huge squad. He always has room for talented young players. It's served them well. This idea also allows the Mancs to spend their money on 1st team players rather than backup players.

If the players are good enough they'll make it no  matter where they're from and in the modern game you source players from all over the world. Despite Gnurglans suggestion United do it too and you can see that in the case of Pique and Rossi for a start. I mean how old is Javi Garcia? He's 20, United have just spent about £30m on two players of the same age and yet Gnurglan is holding them up as some sort of shining light in this situation. If we want to compete at the top level for years to come we have to source the best players all over the world, thats the way the game has gone.

[Notayesman]

Kenny Dalglish, Wayne Rooney, David Nugent, Joey Barton, Kevin Nolan, Damien Duff, Allegedly, not all of them were Academy players some had trials and you passed them up.

So then those players weren't at the club, most of them were trialist and would Joey Barton or Kevin Nolan shift anyone in the current midfield? No, there's your answer. You're grasping at straws with those names given that most of them were never actually at the club for any period of time as a youth.

It's not just the ones you've let go that have gone on to do x, y and z you want to be concerned with, it's the likes of Welsh and Mellor, there never seems to be any reflection on what went wrong, why did the captain of the england u-20 side and a record breaking striker not make it ? It's a very crass conveyor belt, just get rid of them and try again with some other kids and if they don't work out, ah well, there's always more.

Thats just the way it is! Its always been like that, in fact it was worse before. At least now education is incorporated into it and they try to help the kids that don't make it at all, before they were just cut lose. Football can be cruel. Every club is like the way you've described above, we're not out on our own here you know.

The Irish team at the U20 world cup in Malaysia 10 years ago came third. Do you know how many of those players are still playing at the top level? One, Duff. Thats it. Under age football is known for that. Something like only 10% of players graduate to the top level, its like that at every single club.

All comes down to the pressures on top clubs I suppose, same with Liverpool, can you afford to take a chance on someone who could make a mistake that'll cost you when when you can bring in someone else already proven ?

Like Mark Gonzalez.

Here's the thing that annoys me the most, If madrid dont think Garcia is as good as Diarra, Emerson or Gago then he's not as good as Alonso, Gerrard, Mascherano or quite probably Leiva, what's the point ?

Because Rafa rates him, thats the point, thats the only point that matters. Also madrid aren't exactly something you'd be holding up as an example. They're a fucking farce. If Rafa rates the guy thats good enough. Again you're making out like this is some isolated incident. Loads of clubs don't rate players that go on to do well elsewhere, thats just the way it is. You can't keep every youngster just in case one of them turns into the next Gerrard or Carra. The people that make the decisions are the people that run the club, if they think these guys are good enough they'll make it.

It is harsh but thats the way it is and always has been. And Javi Garcia has absolutely nothing to do with it.

[Acaustiq]

And people used to say the same thing about Richie Partridge. And Luke Chadwick was supposed to be the new Ryan Giggs when he was a youth at United.

And Simon Davies and Ben Thornley and Chris Casper and Terry Cooke blah blah blah blah, we can go on about cherno samba and nii lamptey all day long, some players have expectations thrown on them too early, who knew. Ferguson was believing a lot of his own hype at the time and was as desperate as anyone to find the 'next' Giggs/Beckham/Scholes (possibly doing for Lee Sharpe in the process) so much so that Davies made twenty appearances after scoring on his debut.

Richie 'another player with no appearances to his name' Partridge did have a lot of talent, though in large part he was a bright spot in a pretty stagnant side. Seemed to do alright for coventry, their player of the season as I recall. Maybe if he'd played for southampton wenger would have bought him for eight figures.

You're not suggest we fast track him into the first team to take corners are you?

Such bizarre selective argument suggests you haven't really got one.

I think its clear here that its not a problem with bringing in kids from other clubs that you have, its a problem with foreign kids. And thats not even an arguement.

You're right, it's not, you should probably come up with something that's not a complete load of unsubstantiated wank.

See how I provided a reason for having no problem with Hobbs, it's the same reason I had no problem with Barragan (another player who seems to be doing alright elsewhere, then again he had a few goes at Liverpool iirc) for instance, try that.

And what if he does?

How do you think thats going to look to youngsters both domestic and foreign, as the players who didn't 'make it' here but did elsewhere mount up, so will the talent more likely to go elsewhere.

The coaching staff will make that decision. If they think he's good enough to cut it here they'll do their best to persuade him to stay, if he still wants to go the Newcsatle then I'm afraid thats his decision, and has to be taken in part because he believes he won't make it at Liverpool which is his problem really.

Again, it works the other way in respect of Garcia which you're conveniently ignoring.

[Notayesman]

And Simon Davies and Ben Thornley and Chris Casper and Terry Cooke blah blah blah blah, we can go on about cherno samba and nii lamptey all day long, some players have expectations thrown on them too early, who knew. Ferguson was believing a lot of his own hype at the time and was as desperate as anyone to find the 'next' Giggs/Beckham/Scholes (possibly doing for Lee Sharpe in the process) so much so that Davies made twenty appearances after scoring on his debut.

Exactly. some players aren't good enough, the ones that are will make it, the others won't. Don't know what that point was supposed to show.

Richie 'another player with no appearances to his name' Partridge did have a lot of talent, though in large part he was a bright spot in a pretty stagnant side. Seemed to do alright for coventry, their player of the season as I recall. Maybe if he'd played for southampton wenger would have bought him for eight figures.

Yes Coventry what division again? And where is he know? Hardly a shining example Acaustiq. And you're last sentence there is just angry drivel, try and avoid that.

Such bizarre selective argument suggests you haven't really got one.

Ha you said it lad. Promoting someones corner taking ability and then suggesting the first team struggles with this. What  else where you trying to say exactly? Don't get arsey with me because you're producing random statements with no merit.

You're right, it's not, you should probably come up with something that's not a complete load of unsubstantiated wank.

See how I provided a reason for having no problem with Hobbs, it's the same reason I had no problem with Barragan (another player who seems to be doing alright elsewhere, then again he had a few goes at Liverpool iirc) for instance, try that.

Well done, you've come up with Barragan after the fact. He was homesick by the way, that was made clear. The club didn't want him to go and inserted some sort of buy back clause.

Funny you've a problem with El Zhar getting a run ahead of Hamill why? Maybe its just that Rafa thinks el Zhar is closer and not some agenda against local and British youth which is clearly in your thinking.

How do you think thats going to look to youngsters both domestic and foreign, as the players who didn't 'make it' here but did elsewhere mount up, so will the talent more likely to go elsewhere.

Which ones? The ones you listed above that actually never were here, those ones? The ones that wouldn't even make the team now? The talent won't go elsewhere, if they want to play for Liverpool they'll come here. We've just widened the net.

Again, it works the other way in respect of Garcia which you're conveniently ignoring.

How have I ignored it? Thats right its Garcia's problem if he wants to leave Madrid not Madrids. Don't think I said otherwise. The point is Rafa rates him and would like him, why you've a problem with that is beyond me. Some people just have to fucking moan and you're clearly one of them.

Put simply if they're good enough they'll make it no matter where their from. I know in your ideal world we'd never let a youngster go but sometimes you have to. Its always been that way.

[shangtsung]

What the fuck is this point of getting him? We have 5 central mids and regardless whether he is going to be a great player or not, we already have 5 fucking guys in that same boat.

[shangtsung]

Put simply if they're good enough they'll make it no matter where their from. I know in your ideal world we'd never let a youngster go but sometimes you have to. Its always been that way.

How do you know that some of these players have only gone on to flop in their careers because they never got that big chance with Liverpool in the first place?

[Notayesman]

What the fuck is this point of getting him? We have 5 central mids and regardless whether he is going to be a great player or not, we already have 5 fucking guys in that same boat.

Well what if Masch leaves after the 18 months? The way MSI is its hardly a cert he's guaranteed to stay. What if Javi Garcia arrives and proves to be a long term better prospect than say Momo? Would it not be better to get a nice sum for Momo and allow Garcia or whoever to come in?

I mean if you're saying that then why sign any kids at all or have an acadamy? Just pick players up when you need them.

Its about having real strength in depth and having options for the future. It doesn't matter if its Javi Garcia or not, it goes for any young player in any position from any part of the world. I still don't understand why Garcia in particular is such a problem for everyone.

[shangtsung]

Rafa isn't stupid at all. If the homegrowns are good enough he wouldn't be buying these kids. Alas, Lindfield and the others are apparently not good enough for Liverpool football.

Lindfield definitely has the potential to be a good Premiership striker. Unfortunately I doubt Rafa will ever give him a real chance.

[shangtsung]

Well what if Masch leaves after the 18 months? The way MSI is its hardly a cert he's guaranteed to stay. What if Javi Garcia arrives and proves to be a long term better prospect than say Momo? Would it not be better to get a nice sum for Momo and allow Garcia or whoever to come in?

I mean if you're saying that then why sign any kids at all or have an acadamy? Just pick players up when you need them.

Its about having real strength in depth and having options for the future. It doesn't matter if its Javi Garcia or not, it goes for any young player in any position from any part of the world. I still don't understand why Garcia in particular is such a problem for everyone.

Javi Garcia isn't some promising 16 year old we can shove in the reserves, he's a very good midifelder right now who is looking to break into the first team this season. Tell me how we can keep all our midifielders happy, unless he sells one or two first and then brings him in.

[Notayesman]

Javi Garcia isn't some promising 16 year old we can shove in the reserves, he's a very good midifelder right now who is looking to break into the first team this season. Tell me how we can keep all our midifielders happy, unless he sells one or two first and then brings him in.

Lucas arrived though didn't he at £8m. Its not like he's guaranteed to shift Gerrard, Alonso, Momo or Masch. My idea would be that they'll spend a year in the reserves and playing in the early rounds of the cups getting used to the game here. If they look like they can contribute to the first team they'll be used. What if Masch gets injured? Then immediately we only have one player again thats playing that holding role. If after a season or two they look the business, then the club will assess if they're better than some of whats there. This is what Liverpool have always done so why is it a problem for people now? If we could sell an established player for a large sum of money and have a player ready to come in that we picked up for peanuts then you've done well. People are creating problems here were there aren't any. Jesus it was only a few months ago that people were raving about Arsenals 2nd team demolishing ours. What did Rafa say after the game? That we needed to improve our reserve and youth sides, and thats what he's doing. You'd swear this sort of thing was bad for the club.

[shangtsung]

Lucas arrived though didn't he at £8m. Its not like he's guaranteed to shift Gerrard, Alonso, Momo or Masch. My idea would be that they'll spend a year in the reserves and playing in the early rounds of the cups getting used to the game here. If they look like they can contribute to the first team they'll be used. What if Masch gets injured? Then immediately we only have one player again thats playing that holding role. If after a season or two they look the business, then the club will assess if they're better than some of whats there. This is what Liverpool have always done so why is it a problem for people now? If we could sell an established player for a large sum of money and have a player ready to come in that we picked up for peanuts then you've done well. People are creating problems here were there aren't any.

I understand your point but I don't think someone like Javi Garcia will be prepared to play at Sutton United etc for a whole year waiting for an injury to occur. He's just come from Real Madrid.

[Notayesman]

I understand your point but I don't think someone like Javi Garcia will be prepared to play at Sutton United etc for a whole year waiting for an injury to occur. He's just come from Real Madrid.

Well if he's not that his problem and I'd imagine Rafa wouldn't bother with him. The fact is its irrelevant if its Javi Garcia or some other foreigner or whether its a winger or defensive mid. There should be absolutely no objection to trying to sign these guys if its for the benefit of the team. You can't not sign a potential player on the basis that there's a couple of guys that did very well in the youth team because you don't actually know if they'll make the step up. Some will some won't. In the meantime you take on what you can and you select the very best to make the step up. I mean why sign Lucas? We've already got Gerrard, Alonso, etc. We signed him because he's got great potential and if Rafa thinks the same of Garcia then it would be wrong not to try and sign him.

[Acaustiq]

So then those players weren't at the club, most of them were trialist and would Joey Barton or Kevin Nolan shift anyone in the current midfield? No, there's your answer. You're grasping at straws with those names given that most of them were never actually at the club for any period of time as a youth.

Pick two players out of a list of six and claim you must be right because they didn't go onto be world class ? Either of them would have been good squad players during houllier's darker day's.

The fact some weren't at the club despite them being right in front of you is a stronger argument (Rooney, it's said dominated the game during the trial, he also had an everton top on, but that's a whole other thing) given some of the tat that ends up at the academy, lampard and cole were also keen on going to Liverpool (the 90 mile rule never went against the likes of the mighty robbie foy and ryan wilkie who Liverpool paid a boatload to get to move closer) but Liverpool managed to fuck that up as well.

Sir Bob was said to be immensely pissed off when he was told they'd let Dalglish slip through and who can blame him.

Would Garcia shift anyone in the current midfield ?

Thats just the way it is! Its always been like that, in fact it was worse before. At least now education is incorporated into it and they try to help the kids that don't make it at all, before they were just cut lose. Football can be cruel. Every club is like the way you've described above, we're not out on our own here you know.

I asked why there's no reflection, not that Liverpool are unique in this. Welsh and Mellor weren't just 'some players' as I pointed out, letting paul harrison and conal platt go is one thing, fucking up with them two is quite another.

The Irish team at the U20 world cup in Malaysia 10 years ago came third. Do you know how many of those players are still playing at the top level? One, Duff. Thats it. Under age football is known for that. Something like only 10% of players graduate to the top level, its like that at every single club.

Players who find themselves at the u20 world cup (south american teams aside who want to win every bastard and take it deadly seriously) rather than the world cup proper are disproportionately unlikey to make it at the highest level ?

Well, who could have guessed, darren caskey for one.

Because Rafa rates him, thats the point, thats the only point that matters. Also madrid aren't exactly something you'd be holding up as an example. They're a fucking farce. If Rafa rates the guy thats good enough. Again you're making out like this is some isolated incident. Loads of clubs don't rate players that go on to do well elsewhere, thats just the way it is. You can't keep every youngster just in case one of them turns into the next Gerrard or Carra. The people that make the decisions are the people that run the club, if they think these guys are good enough they'll make it.

It is harsh but thats the way it is and always has been. And Javi Garcia has absolutely nothing to do with it.

How highly does Rafa rate him, as highly as Duran ? Ajdarevic ? Idrizaj ?

I'm not endorsing holding onto anyone for the sake of it, infact, I'm endorsing the exact opposite, not hording players for the sake of it like some sort of demented cat lady in the hope that one might come off. You know, a bit like the 'farce' of madrid do with senior players, one minute Cassano is one of europe's most promising strikers with an attitude problem the next he's at real madrid.

Liverpool reserves are fast becoming a black hole, maybe now the manager is in charge that'll change, either that or a decent network of clubs to whom players can be regularly sent out on loan is required.

[Acaustiq]

Exactly. some players aren't good enough, the ones that are will make it, the others won't. Don't know what that point was supposed to show.

Yes Coventry what division again? And where is he know? Hardly a shining example Acaustiq. And you're last sentence there is just angry drivel, try and avoid that.
 

Ha you said it lad. Promoting someones corner taking ability and then suggesting the first team struggles with this. What  else where you trying to say exactly? Don't get arsey with me because you're producing random statements with no merit.

 
Well done, you've come up with Barragan after the fact. He was homesick by the way, that was made clear. The club didn't want him to go and inserted some sort of buy back clause.

Funny you've a problem with El Zhar getting a run ahead of Hamill why? Maybe its just that Rafa thinks el Zhar is closer and not some agenda against local and British youth which is clearly in your thinking.

Which ones? The ones you listed above that actually never were here, those ones? The ones that wouldn't even make the team now? The talent won't go elsewhere, if they want to play for Liverpool they'll come here. We've just widened the net.


How have I ignored it? Thats right its Garcia's problem if he wants to leave Madrid not Madrids. Don't think I said otherwise. The point is Rafa rates him and would like him, why you've a problem with that is beyond me. Some people just have to fucking moan and you're clearly one of them.

Put simply if they're good enough they'll make it no matter where their from. I know in your ideal world we'd never let a youngster go but sometimes you have to. Its always been that way.

I typed half a reply, pointing out a number of obviously talented players who had been shafted by circumstance and not made it, a number of good players who did well in division one, went on to bigger things and so forth.

Then I realised I wasn't actually defending my points, I was defending your utterly bizarre interpretations of them, had a look in your post history and it appears you do this quite a lot.

To coin a phrase, never wrestle with a pig, you both get covered in shit and the pig enjoys it.

(nb. The buyback clause for Barragan was given up as part of the Arbeloa deal.)

[Notayesman]

Pick two players out of a list of six and claim you must be right because they didn't go onto be world class ? Either of them would have been good squad players during houllier's darker day's.

Jesus, right then Duff or Nugent either. There's 4, the other one was over 30 years ago. And You don't know the details of those TRIALISTS for a start, because thats what they were trialists. They weren't at the club at that young age. Did Liverpool not choose Rooney or did Rooney not choose Liverpool? Duff picked Blackburn because he thought he'd find it easier to breakthrough. Maybe he was right, maybe he wasn't but that was long before Rafa's time and in fact it was before Geds time as well. You're putting these names out but you actually haven't a clue what the story was, you just know they had a trial here thats it.

The fact some weren't at the club despite them being right in front of you is a stronger argument (Rooney, it's said dominated the game during the trial, he also had an everton top on, but that's a whole other thing) given some of the tat that ends up at the academy, lampard and cole were also keen on going to Liverpool (the 90 mile rule never went against the likes of the mighty robbie foy and ryan wilkie who Liverpool paid a boatload to get to move closer) but Liverpool managed to fuck that up as well.

I mean here you are saying we fucked up by not bringing young players to the club in Lampard and Cole and yet that goes against your initial gripe that we are bringing a young player to the club. Why is it ok to bring Lampard and Cole in and not Garcia,  exactly is your problem here? Again you're giving examples of English players we've missed out on being a problem. Well what if we miss out on a future foreign star because we didn't bother our arse looking abroad?

And again all before Rafa's time and even Geds.

Sir Bob was said to be immensely pissed off when he was told they'd let Dalglish slip through and who can blame him.

Well ok, but thats life it happens. United let Beardsley go, we benefited. These things happen in football because its not a perfect world. Are we going to base everything now on use missing out on Dalglish 30 years ago? Should we not sign anymore 20 year olds in case a 16 year old trialist might end up being the next Dalglish IF he chooses to pick Liverpool as his club?

What if United hadn't signed Ronaldo on the basis that Fletcher might be alright in a few years?

Would Garcia shift anyone in the current midfield ?

Might he in a few seasons is the point. Barton is not 20 anymoreand is still not at a top club, same with Nolan, same with Duff (who shone briefly at Chelsea), we're talking about potential in Garcia, and Lucas for that matter. And obviously our pretty successful manager likes the look of him, so again whats the problem? Especially if its potential that can contribute now.

I asked why there's no reflection, not that Liverpool are unique in this. Welsh and Mellor weren't just 'some players' as I pointed out, letting paul harrison and conal platt go is one thing, fucking up with them two is quite another.

Players who find themselves at the u20 world cup (south american teams aside who want to win every bastard and take it deadly seriously) rather than the world cup proper are disproportionately unlikey to make it at the highest level ?.

Hold on, what do you mean they weren't just some players. You said that based on their underage caps and then your telling me that players at that level are likely not going to make it anyway. Which is it?

And that applies to underage across the board, the U20's were just an example. Its the same at all, something like 10% of players from those sides will ever make it to the 1st team, even less will become established. Even less again will make it at a top club. Thats the price of being up with the best, the standards are higher.

Well, who could have guessed, darren caskey for one.

How highly does Rafa rate him, as highly as Duran ? Ajdarevic ? Idrizaj ?.

Honestly now, how on earth would I know that and why the fuck is that even relevant who he rates more? Seriously what is the point of that? He rates him is the point. Again why you have a problem with it is beyond me.

I'm not endorsing holding onto anyone for the sake of it, infact, I'm endorsing the exact opposite, not hording players for the sake of it like some sort of demented cat lady in the hope that one might come off. You know, a bit like the 'farce' of madrid do with senior players, one minute Cassano is one of europe's most promising strikers with an attitude problem the next he's at real madrid.

He is not pursuing Garcia for the sake of it. That is the whole basis of my point. Rafa must see something in the guy if he wants to sign him. Do you honestly think he's saying, 'oh there's a spanish kid, he's 20, lets sign him for the craic' ? He's not.

And what the hell does Cassano have to do with? Seriously, were are you going with some of these points, Are clubs not allowed make bogey signings now?

Liverpool reserves are fast becoming a black hole, maybe now the manager is in charge that'll change, either that or a decent network of clubs to whom players can be regularly sent out on loan is required.

A black hole??? Rafa's only started recruiting for the reserves in earnest last summer. How the hell is it a black hole? Most of the players are kids recently recruited by Rafa as players for the future, a bit like Arsenal. Its a little early to say its a 'black hole', maybe a bit of restraint and patience is what you need and maybe we could see how these kids are doing in a couple of season before you write off the whole reserve/youth policy of Benitez and his team.

Once again I'm going to point to the quality of Arsenals reserves. That is what Benitez is clearly aiming for, young players with buckets of talent and it doesn't matter if they're English, French, Spanish etc. once they're good enough. If the local talent is good enough it'll come through as well. Thats it. There's no conspiracy to force out English kids and I've no idea given a lot of what you've said above how you can have a gripe with the current recruitment policy.

[Notayesman]

I typed half a reply, pointing out a number of obviously talented players who had been shafted by circumstance and not made it, a number of good players who did well in division one, went on to bigger things and so forth.

Then I realised I wasn't actually defending my points, I was defending your utterly bizarre interpretations of them, had a look in your post history and it appears you do this quite a lot.

To coin a phrase, never wrestle with a pig, you both get covered in shit and the pig enjoys it.

(nb. The buyback clause for Barragan was given up as part of the Arbeloa deal.)

Yeh nice way to crawl out of it there. Like I said some people just have to bitch and moan. Basically you have no point and you've contradicted yourself a number of times already.

[Garstonite]

More evidence that Sissoko will leave in the long run of things, imo. There's nothing wrong with nurturing a young talent to fill in for Mascherano/Alonso in the future, if you ask me.

[smicer07]

Having just signed a new contract, I doubt that really. Momo is only 21, remember.

[Garstonite]

Having just signed a new contract, I doubt that really.

Mo' Money.

Literally.

[Art Vandelay]

More likely Mascherano wouldn't be joining, Shirley.

[Garstonite]

More likely Mascherano wouldn't be joining, Shirley.

I'd cry. Well, not literally. OK, literally.

[Notayesman]

Either Momo or Masch or Alonso for that sake it doesn't really matter who the indviduals are. You've just got to be prepared and recruit the best young talent available. And if that foreign talent is better than the homegrown then its unfortunate but thats the way it is.

[Gnurglan]

It's a bigger issue than building a good 1st team squad right now.

We, well I, would want us to build a link, a natural link between our Academy and the 1st team. The cost of recruiting a new player is one thing, but even more important is the idea that the young players have a chance. When they go to training, they should know that if they train hard and has a bit of luck, they will get the chance. Most can accept that they weren't good enough, if only they got the chance to prove themselves.
If that spirit doesn't exist, we'll have a 1st team squad and an Academy that live separate lives. That is wasted money. We've had Mellor, a fantastic goalscorer at his level, we've had Welsh, an England captain for his age group and now we have a team that has won the FA youth cup. These players don't make it. Surely we must be doing something wrong if their way is constantly blocked.

We have a bigger squad than the Mancs, yet they win the leauge and we don't. They try a new young player every season. They may not make it, but they get the chance. So the Mancs fill up the empty squad places with their own young talent. We fill the places first and let the young players be backup to the squad players.

Who is winning?
 

[Notayesman]

It's a bigger issue than building a good 1st team squad right now.

We, well I, would want us to build a link, a natural link between our Academy and the 1st team. The cost of recruiting a new player is one thing, but even more important is the idea that the young players have a chance. When they go to training, they should know that if they train hard and has a bit of luck, they will get the chance. Most can accept that they weren't good enough, if only they got the chance to prove themselves.
If that spirit doesn't exist, we'll have a 1st team squad and an Academy that live separate lives. That is wasted money. We've had Mellor, a fantastic goalscorer at his level, we've had Welsh, an England captain for his age group and now we have a team that has won the FA youth cup. These players don't make it. Surely we must be doing something wrong if their way is constantly blocked.

We have a bigger squad than the Mancs, yet they win the leauge and we don't. They try a new young player every season. They may not make it, but they get the chance. So the Mancs fill up the empty squad places with their own young talent. We fill the places first and let the young players be backup to the squad players.

Who is winning?
 

Whos winning??? The Mancs have been building for this for nearly 20 years under Ferguson, Rafa's in the job 3. Thats a bit of a difference in fairness and in Rafa's first 3 years we've been to two CL finals, its taken Fergie nearly 20 to manage 1. I'd say the omens are good.

You seem to be of the opinion that there's simply no way for an acadamy graduate to get through to the first team. Well thats wrong, of course there is but they have to be good enough. This is the way football has gone where the top 3 or 4 teams (sometimes less) in each country dominate completely and obviously only the very very best youngsters will come through. That is the reality, its that simple. To graduate now you have to be even more special but look its not like we've produced loads of these up to now anyway. Carra and Stevie are the only ones still here, Owen and Fowler up to that and McManaman I suppose were the only other real success's.

And again you're using Mellor and Welsh and their achievments at underage as some sort of example of were we've failed these guys. Where is Mellor now? Where is Welsh now? The gap in class between the underage and even the reserves is huge.

And what young player did United try last season? We tried a few in the carling cup? Which people fucking bitched and moaned about after we got beaten by Arsenal.

Look, Rafa's made it clear that he's not happy with whats coming out of the acadamy at the moment and that he wants to improve it, he's said that himself. But even when that is up to scratch I'd hope that the club will still scour Europe for the best players there as well because thats what everyone else will be doing, United do it, Arsenal do it and Chelsea do it. And if we don't, then we're already handicapping ourselves. That way you're getting the best of the local talent and you're picking up the best from abroad.

[jrewing]

Depends on the role you see for the Academy.

You could either see it supplementing the young players we buy from around the world, or you see it as the main source, supplementing that with bought youth.

In my opinion it's very unlikely that the Academy is going to produce a new first team player every season (or even every 2 or three) - but it's worth doing as some of the nearly men recoup transfer fees, and there's a chance that every 5 or so years you get a real quality player who's local. So players like this Garcia (not necessarily him) are vital in order for our Youth system to achieve it's goal - which in the long run is save us paying larger transfer fees and to produce a good selection of players who play the Liverpool way.

[Gnurglan]

Whos winning??? The Mancs have been building for this for nearly 20 years under Ferguson, Rafa's in the job 3. Thats a bit of a difference in fairness and in Rafa's first 3 years we've been to two CL finals, its taken Fergie nearly 20 to manage 1. I'd say the omens are good.

You seem to be of the opinion that there's simply no way for an acadamy graduate to get through to the first team. Well thats wrong, of course there is but they have to be good enough. This is the way football has gone where the top 3 or 4 teams (sometimes less) in each country dominate completely and obviously only the very very best youngsters will come through. That is the reality, its that simple. To graduate now you have to be even more special but look its not like we've produced loads of these up to now anyway. Carra and Stevie are the only ones still here, Owen and Fowler up to that and McManaman I suppose were the only other real success's.

And again you're using Mellor and Welsh and their achievments at underage as some sort of example of were we've failed these guys. Where is Mellor now? Where is Welsh now? The gap in class between the underage and even the reserves is huge.

And what young player did United try last season? We tried a few in the carling cup? Which people fucking bitched and moaned about after we got beaten by Arsenal.

Look, Rafa's made it clear that he's not happy with whats coming out of the acadamy at the moment and that he wants to improve it, he's said that himself. But even when that is up to scratch I'd hope that the club will still scour Europe for the best players there as well because thats what everyone else will be doing, United do it, Arsenal do it and Chelsea do it. And if we don't, then we're already handicapping ourselves. That way you're getting the best of the local talent and you're picking up the best from abroad.

The omens are good.

What I mean is the Mancs have a system that has worked well. And in that system, they don't keep half a dozen CMs ahead of their young players. That makes it easier for a young player at Man U to get a chance to play.

Mellor got some sort of chance, but Welsh didn't. The reason then was that we did exactly the mistake that we now seem to repeat - we kept a lot of squad players. Of course the gap is gonna be big between the 1st team and the Reserves, because only a truly outstanding player will force his way through the forest of players he has in front of him.

It's true a lot of people did moan, but I don't complain when we use the kids. I was one of few who actually supported Rafa when he played youth players against Burnley.

That we are scouting Europe for the best talent is one thing, but they need to get a chance to play, where ever we find them. What disappoints me is that when we have nurtured a player like Guthrie, we send him out on loan and while he's out, (if Garcia is on his way), we sign another player that will be above him in the pecking order. We should be doing the direct opposite. We shouldn't sign anyone, we should sell a player, send Guthrie on a short loan, bring him back and trust him. If he doesn't make it, then the chance goes to someone else. Or we might could say goodbye to Guthrie straight away.