Topic: RTK

[foresthills]

 
will someone scatch my belly while I roll over.................

So your saying you'd rather the support be crap, do nothing then moan in the pub?

What I've just tried to say is this isn't an elitist group! a lot of the rtk lot are foreign and oot.....but they know how to support their team.

We are trying to make a difference.

[J-PH]

Yes, but we needed to score 4 goals in like 27 seconds.

We only needed 3 actually and had 45 minutes to do it in.  Shouldve stayed, worked out ok in the end.

[Hightown Phil]

[AdamBrunt]

RTK is all very "right on" and nice in theory but if people think the club care then IMO (and the opinion of others) you're sadly mistaken ...

we were talking about this on the drive home on Saturday night .... basically, as long as they are behaving themselves then the club don't give a flying fuck who is sitting on the Kop.

From the club's POV, ST holders are bad - OOTs are good. ST holders don't drink/eat inside the ground and don't spend £70-100 (every visit to Anfield) in the club shop, OOTs do.

If they could get away with it, LFC would prefer the ground to be full of OOTs with no STs at all .... LFC don't make any money from ST holders, they make shed loads from OOTs.

Why do you think the club offer "child" tickets ?? For the good of the game / out of the kindness of their hears ?? Or, rather, they know that 10 years 1/2 price tickets is pretty good "gamble" when the potential return is 40+ years of "full price" tickets ??

So, in summary - whilst its all very good in practise wanting all those "mobile phone wavers, etc" kicked off the Kop ... whilst they are making the club money, the club will let them on the Kop without any hesitation.

[AdamBrunt]

Christ, its fascism gone mad! Why cant we all just get along? we all support the same club, how we express that support should be up to ourselves and not someone else.

Absolutely spot on IMO

[Raul!]

So, in summary - whilst its all very good in practise wanting all those "mobile phone wavers, etc" kicked off the Kop ... whilst they are making the club money, the club will let them on the Kop without any hesitation.

In my personal experience, the ocassional visitors who write to the club for tickets are given them in other stands rather than the Kop.  If you ask for the Kop, even though a well connected contact, you are politely told that they will try and accomodate your request but that there are no guarantees...and then you get tickets for the Main Stand or Upper Cent.

[AdamBrunt]

In my personal experience, the ocassional visitors who write to the club for tickets are given them in other stands rather than the Kop.  If you ask for the Kop, even though a well connected contact, you are politely told that they will try and accomodate your request but that there are no guarantees...and then you get tickets for the Main Stand or Upper Cent.

If you book online - which is how the vast majority of non-STs these days book tickets, AFAIK, you can sit where you like.

Where I am in the Kop (207), whilst there are plenty of the "same old faces" (ST holders) every game, at least 15 of the 50 seats around me are occupied by different people every time.

If those figures are repeated across the whole stand, that's a large number of the type of people RTK would like to see the back of.

[Hightown Phil]

RTK is all very "right on" and nice in theory but if people think the club care then IMO (and the opinion of others) you're sadly mistaken ...

If you think that then you're the one sadly mistaken.

[raptor]

If those figures are repeated across the whole stand, that's a large number of the type of people RTK would like to see the back of.

You're missing the entire point. It's not about seeing the back of people. It's about education. The vast majority don't give a shit where anyone comes from or how many times they've been the match. Everyone has to start somewhere. It's more the point of showing these people that we're not Pompey or Chelsea. We're Liverpool, with an unrivalled history, a uniqueness, an unrivalled soul and we don't act like clueless whoppers following the latest fad on soccer am. We were once known as the most knowledgeable fans in the world. Ask yourself why and ask what's changed?

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

RTK is all very "right on" and nice in theory but if people think the club care then IMO (and the opinion of others) you're sadly mistaken ...

we were talking about this on the drive home on Saturday night .... basically, as long as they are behaving themselves then the club don't give a flying fuck who is sitting on the Kop.

From the club's POV, ST holders are bad - OOTs are good. ST holders don't drink/eat inside the ground and don't spend £70-100 (every visit to Anfield) in the club shop, OOTs do.

If they could get away with it, LFC would prefer the ground to be full of OOTs with no STs at all .... LFC don't make any money from ST holders, they make shed loads from OOTs.

Why do you think the club offer "child" tickets ?? For the good of the game / out of the kindness of their hears ?? Or, rather, they know that 10 years 1/2 price tickets is pretty good "gamble" when the potential return is 40+ years of "full price" tickets ??

So, in summary - whilst its all very good in practise wanting all those "mobile phone wavers, etc" kicked off the Kop ... whilst they are making the club money, the club will let them on the Kop without any hesitation.

I think you actually do the club a disservice there. 

They are well aware that one of the things that attracts OOTs and OOCs to the game is the "myth" of Anfield, the legendary tales of Inter Milan, St. Etienne, Auxerre, Roma, Olympiakos and Chelsea.  They need to do their best to retain that as it is their USP, the one thing that Chelsea, with all their money, trophy players and titles cannot offer (no matter how many free flags they hand out).

They will also be aware of the importance of the crowd's influence on the team, and the opposition, on those big nights. How they can be propelled to over-achieve through sheer willpower alone.

Finally, unless they are extremely myopic, they will realise that the best way to ensure your future against the vagaries of uncertain results and fortunes is to nurture your regular supporters and even more importantly to attract young local fans who will continue to fill your new large stadium even if the club are less successful on an international scale.

The fact that the club are co-operating with and supporting RTK would suggest that they're, thankfully, looking at things in a rather more rounded way than you are.   And that's before I even start on your bizarre belief that OOTs and ST holders are mutually exclusive groups.

[AdamBrunt]

If you think that then you're the one sadly mistaken.

Really Who do you honestly think the club would rather attend a game - (a) someone who justs a buys a ticket, or (b) someone who buys a ticket and also spends another £100+ whilst they are at the ground ??

[Raul!]

Really Who do you honestly think the club would rather attend a game - (a) someone who justs a buys a ticket, or (b) someone who buys a ticket and also spends another £100+ whilst they are at the ground ??

Presumably they would spend the same amount, Kop or not.

[foresthills]

Believe me mate, the club do care.

If you'd showed an interest instead of trying to shoot down the idea You would know this.

[AdamBrunt]

And that's before I even start on your bizarre belief that OOTs and ST holders are mutually exclusive groups.

When did I say that ??

What I meant was, your average ST holder turns up in their seat 5 mins before kick-off and doesn't spend much other money on the club - your average OOT (most of whom won't be ST holders, more likely to be the "experience" hunter type people) will turn up in the seat laden down with Liverworld baga. Of the two, the club's shareholders like the later.

I am perfectly aware that the club are supporting RTK but as you said yourself, this is because they realise RTK will be the thing that attract OOT/Cs - which is type of fan they want in the ground. Call me a cynic but ... the club are doing it for the money.

[Danny Boys Dad]

Really Who do you honestly think the club would rather attend a game - (a) someone who justs a buys a ticket, or (b) someone who buys a ticket and also spends another £100+ whilst they are at the ground ??

ST holders pay up front for every game, the club gets the money regardless of whether the ST holder decides to turn up or not.

Most ST holders I know also buy food and drink in the ground, as opposed to some daytrippers who bring it with them in a big backpack.

Most ST holders I know also buy merchandise from the club shop.

There might be some ST holders who just go to the match and don't buy anything else, not even a programme, but there are probably daytrippers who do that as well.

[raptor]

When did I say that ??

From the club's POV, ST holders are bad - OOTs are good. ST holders don't drink/eat inside the ground and don't spend £70-100 (every visit to Anfield) in the club shop, OOTs do.

If they could get away with it, LFC would prefer the ground to be full of OOTs with no STs at all .... LFC don't make any money from ST holders, they make shed loads from OOTs

[TheKid.]

There might be some ST holders who just go to the match and don't buy anything else, not even a programme,

[AdamBrunt]

ST holders pay up front for every game, the club gets the money regardless of whether the ST holder decides to turn up or not.

Yes, but if the seat didn't belong to a ST holder they'd still be able to sell it every game - so no money lost. The ST holder only pays 19 x "normal match price" - no different to selling the seat to 19 different people.

Most ST holders I know also buy food and drink in the ground, as opposed to some daytrippers who bring it with them in a big backpack.

Most ST holders I know also buy merchandise from the club shop.

There might be some ST holders who just go to the match and don't buy anything else, not even a programme, but there are probably daytrippers who do that as well.

I am not saying there aren't but ... most ST holders I know (a) drink in one of the local pubs (rather than in the ground), (b) eat at the local cafes/chippies, (c) avoid the club shop - because the queue is too long, etc, etc.

What I am trying to say is .... if you see someone inside Anfield wearing a "stupid hat", with a Liverworld bag, programme and hot dog in their hand, it is unlikely that they are an ST holder IMO.

[Danny Boys Dad]

Yes, but if the seat didn't belong to a ST holder they'd still be able to sell it every game - so no money lost. The ST holder only pays 19 x "normal match price" - no different to selling the seat to 19 different people.

What about the games where the daytrippers don't come? The wednesday nights in November, January etc? The ST holder has paid for them.

What I am trying to say is .... if you see someone inside Anfield wearing a "stupid hat", with a Liverworld bag, programme and hot dog in their hand, it is unlikely that they are an ST holder IMO.

True, but the ST holder will probably have been to Liverworld at another time and still be kitted out with all the same stuff.

ST holders also prefer pies, it's been scientifically proven.

I think the mark-up on the pies is higher as well.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Yes, but if the seat didn't belong to a ST holder they'd still be able to sell it every game - so no money lost. The ST holder only pays 19 x "normal match price" - no different to selling the seat to 19 different people.

Yep, but you are underestimating the importance of an annual £12.5 million cash injection at the start of each summer's transfer window.

To a degree some of your economic arguments are valid, but you're not looking at the bigger picture.  The club are, and are working with RTK, which rather demolishes your "they don't give a fuck" argument.

[AdamBrunt]

What about the games where the daytrippers don't come? The wednesday nights in November, January etc? The ST holder has paid for them.

Now, that's a different topic - but we were discussing this on Saturday night as well.

You can bet your life that Wednesday night WILL NOT be a sell out (remembering that STs who only go to Saturday games will just mean empty seats but won't affect the attendance figure). The daytrippers won't be going to this game - so there should be plenty of tickets for the "locals who are forced out of the club by OOTs" to snap up ... but they won't. 48hrs until kick-off and tickets are still on sale.

[AdamBrunt]

Yep, but you are underestimating the importance of an annual £12.5 million cash injection at the start of each summer's transfer window.

I am pretty sure the clubs transfer budget is based on the fact that the club is 99.99% confident that each game will pretty much be a sell out (ie gate receipts for the whole season) not just on ST holders renewing.

The club are, and are working with RTK, which rather demolishes your "they don't give a fuck" argument.

I have since conceded that "don't give a fuck" was possibly OTT - what I meant was, the club has ulterior motives.

[Mr Mojo Risin']

Now, that's a different topic - but we were discussing this on Saturday night as well.

You can bet your life that Saturday night WILL NOT be a sell out (remembering that STs who only go to Saturday games will just mean empty seats but won't affect the attendance figure). The daytrippers won't be going to this game - so there should be plenty of tickets for the "locals who are forced out of the club by OOTs" to snap up ... but they won't. 48hrs until kick-off and tickets are still on sale.'

agree mate.
i haven't missed many this year but i deffinately won't be going then.

[Brother Mouzone]

ST holders also prefer pies, it's been scientifically proven.

I think the mark-up on the pies is higher as well.

specifically scouse pies

[blert596]

There's far too many people on here whining about the "I/they pay my/their money so can sing what I/they like".

Liverpool FC fans, especially the Kop end, were always a collective. I'm sorry but the sooner these individuals who dont want to be part of this collective stay the fuck away the better for me.

If you just want to go and watch the game, then try and get a ticket somewhere where your lack of participation won't have a negative effect on what WAS one of the most famous terraces in world football.

Honestly, I dont think a lot of people on here know what it means to actually feel the decline in our support. To watch it slowly eroding to the point where its now on a par, and sometimes worse, than every other teams. We may not be Boro yet, but give it a few more years.

Apart from the petty "who do you think you are, telling me what to do at the match" crap, take a long hard look at yourselves and get behind the ideals of the RTK. Its not about alienating anyone, no matter where you are from. In fact its totally the opposite really, its about uniting everyone to back the team in a simple and inspiring way.

Kopites are still gobshites like. 

[Ste G]

Can people stop confusing OOTs with daytrippers.

Not all OOTs go and spend thousands in the club shop, a lot just turn up for the game and spend the same (or even less) as local season ticket holders. In my experience most OOTs are actually pretty regular match goers, not "experience hunter type people". The number of daytrippers as a proportion of the 45,000 crowd is relatively tiny.

And in any case, if they do want to spend money in the club shops, what's wrong with that? Ok, so Mummy and Daddy might take little Tarquin up to Anfield and spoil him rotten. But in 10 years time he might become a well educated, regular. I think the daytrippers get too much stick on here to be honest. It's healthy (and totally expected and unavoidable) to have a few thousand of these fans at each game.

[Danny Boys Dad]

What if the "collective" is now the people who want to just sit there and watch and talk on their phones?

It might be that the singers and shouters are the ones who should stay away 

Times change, perhaps we will soon be known for the respectful silence of our support, a bit like Arsenal, and for the speed that the stadium is cleared after the final whistle.

Visiting fans will marvel at how silent we remain, even when the games are balanced on a knife edge, and how the whole ground is empty before the last player (probably Kuyt) has left the pitch.

[Swoop]

Personally I think most of you people have lost sight of what this should be about and have diluted the RTK in an attempt to fulfil your own agendas.

RTK had the right intentions but has already warped into an ugly beast.

It’s not an OOT/local debate; it’s not a fascist dictatorship telling you what to wear and how to behave. You don’t have to recite 20 Liverpool songs before entry.  Simply it’s about getting the atmosphere back, or it should be.  All the other crap that has been spouted on here and on other forums is a total load of shite.

The atmosphere has nothing to do with where your from, what you wear and who sits in what stand.  Prove me wrong, but I have been going to the game since 1977 and the best atmosphere I have been in - the CL games against Chelsea and Juve, and I sit in the Upper Centenary these days.  In those two games the “entire” ground was jumping from start to finish.  


Did it matter that people where taking pictures       – NO
Did it matter that people on the Kop wore Wanker Hats    – NO
Did it matter that they wore replica shirts       – NO
Did it matter that not all of them came from L4       - NO
Etc etc etc.

Those of you that think the Kop was always a wall of noise for 90 minutes in every game, we’ll my memory must be really bad because I don’t remember it that way.

The only thing that matters is that when it counts, when it really counts Liverpool fans are the best in the world at creating an atmosphere.

The ugly beast that is now the RTK is in danger, if not sorted out soon, of alienating a large number of fans.  I took an Aussie to the game on Saturday, he is over for three games and may never be back again.  When he pulled out his phone he asked permission to use it as he felt that on the previous game (his first ever) he was given some “bad looks” for taking pictures of the Kop from the front before the game started.  I can understand people getting pissed off if you have someone on their feet for 90 minutes disturbing your view but for fucks sake people get real!  

Another one, replica shirts.  Personally I can take or leave them, but if you make it unacceptable for anyone under 12 to wear them, well thanks a lot for the increase in ticket prices boys, cause where do you think the lost revenue will come from?

Those of you that go on about Union jacks, St Georges Cross etc, well historically they were always on the Kop.  They only went away when the hooligans and fascists took them as there own.  Take a look at the last stand of the Kop and you will see some that were brought out for one last airing.

I wont go on, but please people, GET REAL.  This is 2006 not 1966, our history is unrivalled, buts its exactly that – history. RTK should not be how its used to be, but how we as modern fans, educate (not bully) those that only come to the occasional game and improve the atmosphere.  

For a start - do you sit on the Kop, are you reading this - do you sing at the game?  

Me I'm too old and tired, but thats why I dont sit on the Kop

[gerrardspetal]

well said there Swoop 

[Brother Mouzone]

Visiting fans will marvel at how silent we remain, even when the games are balanced on a knife edge, and how the whole ground is empty before the last player (probably Kuyt) has left the pitch.

People will talk in hushed tones about how they experienced the lack of atmosphere at Anfield. They'll visit other gounds and complain that it's far too noisy and that you've never (not) heard a silence like the one at Anfield.

A mate I was at the game with on Saturday was saying he remembers LOADS of games when the standing Kop was virtually silent. Used to get bored cos we were winning easily again.

[JMarsh]

I like Swoop.

[Danny Boys Dad]

People will talk in hushed tones about how they experienced the lack of atmosphere at Anfield. They'll visit other gounds and complain that it's far too noisy and that you've never (not) heard a silence like the one at Anfield.

"Shall we hold our breath for you"

and

"You're not quiet anymore"

And instead of "easy, easy" the Liverpool fans will just put a finger to their lips and whisper "shushhhhh"

 

[wilo in berlin]

Well in Swoop.

[In Fowler we trust]

At last some common sense - well done Swoop

[Brother Mouzone]

"Shall we hold our breath for you"

and

"You're not quiet anymore"

And instead of "easy, easy" the Liverpool fans will just put a finger to their lips and whisper "shushhhhh"

 

We can hear the scousers breathe, yeah, yeah
We can hear the scousers breathe, yeah, yeah
We can hear the scousers breathe - and your seats bang when you leave (to beat the traffic)

Think I'll stop now

[TheHarlequin]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest, and have registered with this site specifically to reply, so to begin with:  Hello All!

This is going to sound like a bit of a wandering post, but there is a point to it, so bear with me and I hope it will make sense by the end.

Firstly, let me declare my position, which is probably going to get myself roundly criticised by some on this board – good.  We’ll come back to that later.  I am almost certainly, what some of you would call an OOT.  I don’t live in Liverpool.  I don’t even live in the area.  I’ve never been to Anfield.  I’ve never seen the team play away either.  Some will ask how I can possibly call myself a supporter.  The answer is that I support the club in ways that I can, by buying the shirts and all that malarkey and wearing them with pride.  It’s not a big thing, it doesn’t count for much financially, but I like to think that every person wearing the club’s colours raises the profile just that little bit higher. 

RTK.  I’m really not sure about this.  Not at all.  Reclaim The Kop?  From who?  Other Liverpool Fans?  Are we really saying that we need to differentiate between one fan and another?  Before you all start screaming at me that this isn’t about creating an elite group, that’s exactly what it is doing!  There’s been posts in this thread complaining about the number of new faces they see around them on The Kop every match like that’s a bad thing.  Let me explain:

Not everybody knows what it’s like to be skint.  I do.  In the days when I lived a lot closer to the city than I do now, personal circumstances left me divorced, broke, and living off handouts from my ex-wife to pay the rent and buy food.  I’ve driven to Anfield, buying petrol with money I can’t afford to spend, and sat in my car outside the gates and smoked cigarettes, dreaming of the day I will get to stand on The Kop (bugger the sitting down bit), and watch the team I’ve followed since I was five and didn’t know the name of any other team.  These days, work has taken me further south and although I don’t live on handouts anymore, I still don’t have a lot of cash.  My money goes on looking after my baby son, paying for the childcare, and making sure that he grows up as a Red.

One day though, I’ll get there.  I’ll stand there on The Kop and it will damn well matter to me.  Like so many other fans around the world, I’ll make my pilgrimage and when I do, I don’t want to be looked down on like I don’t belong there.  I want to be part of something that money and geography won’t let me do every match.  Some of the time I’ll sing and some of the time I won’t – I’ll take my cue from those around me.  The Kop is the stuff that football legends are made of, so if you want it to stay that way, don’t try to reclaim it, try to save it.  Those of you who are there every other weekend need to provide the leadership for those that aren’t.  Sing your little bloody hearts out.  For every man woman and child that doesn’t, sing twice as loud to make up for them.  Don’t look to reclaim The Kop for yourselves, try to be the example it needs and take the damn thing to every other Liverpool fan there is.  Make it an irresistible force so that everyone else there will want to join in.  It’s not about what flag you wave, what hat you wear.  If you want The Kop to be special, you need to make it that way for everyone, don’t expect the club to do it for you, and don’t start excluding those who don’t fit your ideals.  This isn't a lecture - I'm not there and I have no right to do so, but you are today’s guardians of something bigger than every individual supporter – you are the club’s soul.

Remember I said at the beginning I thought I was going to get an absolute pasting for the way I described myself?  Well here’s the point:  It doesn’t matter a damn where I come from.  It doesn’t matter whether I’ve been to Anfield or not.  What matters are the values that this club and its fans hold dear – what makes us Liverpool Supporters And Bloody Proud Of It.  The idea that the club does its football the ‘right’ way.  That we are part of something noble, dignified and proud.  We are not some bright, brash and shiny thing with no class like Chelsea.  We’re not prostitutes to the men in suits like the Mancs.  Most of all: We don’t whinge and bicker.  We don’t wash our dirty laundry in public.  Don’t reclaim The Kop – save it for all of us.

We are Liverpool.  Not Fucking Spurs.

[Conde]

You wouldn't know how frustrating it is being in the Kop on a euro night then a prem 3 o'clock and seeing the difference, you feel as though people are almost delibrately saving themselve for the euro games. :|

[uneverwalkalone]

BTW, if you live ten minutes away by car, surely that's near enough to walk or catch a bus, saving yourself the chore and cost of parking, doing the environment a bit of good and being able to go for a bevvie without worrying about having to drive?!

What bus? no bus from mine goes to anfield, West Derby village i live. ok and why should i get a bus when 5 of us go in the car. just to please you? i leave when the board goes up, end of. fucks sake i miss about 120 seconds of keeping possesion. show me how many injury time goals i've missed over the last 5 years? i can remember a couple against us, birmigham for one, i can remember an injury time winner by smicer, i can remember plenty of last minute goals, but show me how many injury time goals i've missed actually at least 30 seconds after the board goes up......wonder what i've missed. ( i was there for the mellor goal, although i'd stood up from my seat, wonder if i got in your way?)
Fucking bellends making out i leave about 20 minutes early, i said i leave just after the board goes up unless the games on a knife edge.

[gerrardspetal]

I’ve been reading this thread with interest, and have registered with this site specifically to reply, so to begin with:  Hello All!

  Hello.

Liked what you had to say there. 

I'm beginning to get sick of this RTK stuff a bit myself because we are going round and round in circles. 

[Walshy®]

ST holders don't drink/eat inside the ground and don't spend £70-100 (every visit to Anfield) in the club shop, OOTs do.

How many do you know that spend £100 in the shop every visit??  I certainly don't.