Author Topic: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool  (Read 13466 times)

Offline E2K

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RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« on: March 1, 2014, 09:21:42 pm »
What a result. I hope it puts paid to any lingering idea that Brendan Rodgers’ Liverpool is anything like Kevin Keegan’s Newcastle United. In a piece I wrote before Christmas about their famous 4-3 loss at Anfield in April 1996, I characterised that team like this:
Newcastle were, by then, a shadow of the team that had started the season so well. They were a free-falling aircraft, a boxer being held up by the ropes with his gumshield dangling precariously from his bottom lip as he flails his arms aimlessly trying to push it back in. They appeared to have no plan, no means of weathering the storm besides continuing to attack and hoping for the best. Four games previously, they had drawn 3-3 at Maine Road against Manchester City, who would end up the lowest scorers in the League that season and relegated. At a time when they desperately needed to pull out a couple of boring 1-0 wins to steady things a bit, they just couldn’t stop conceding goals

I like Kevin Keegan, but to compare his tactical acumen to that possessed, and illustrated time and time again this season, by Brendan Rodgers is to vastly undersell Liverpool’s current manager. More than that, it’s just plain wrong. The question asked of captain Steven Gerrard after the game as to the magnitude of Rodgers’ value to the team was a significant one. People are beginning to realise just how huge it really is. In a campaign where he has set his team up in various incarnations of 4-4-2, 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1, 3-5-2 and pretty much whatever other numbers you may want to throw around depending on the players available to him and the opposition being faced, the absolute last thing you could ever say about this Liverpool team is that it lacks a plan other than to keep attacking and hope for the best. Furthermore his Liverpool, to me, don’t appear to be going weak at the knees at the prospect of a title run-in. Quite the opposite, they appear to be getting better and growing into the role of title-contenders week by week. At a difficult ground where Manchester City and Arsenal have already dropped points this season and with the opportunity to go second hanging over their heads, his side kept exactly the kind of clean-sheet so utterly beyond  Keegan’s team 18 years ago. I’m not sure if the word “mentality” was being thrown around too much in the spring of 1996, but the lack of a strong one is what ultimately did for Newcastle and that simply will not happen to Brendan Rodgers’ Liverpool this season, wherever they end up, I’m absolutely convinced of that. When Chelsea needed goals today, a reserve like Andre Schurrle was able to contribute a hat-trick. That, if anything (and it’s beginning to become a big if), is what will likely be the difference between us and the likes of Chelsea and Manchester City come the end of the season, but there’s less and less doubt now that this team possesses the mental and physical toughness required of champions, just not, perhaps, the deep pockets.

Liverpool started magnificently today, and the rocky period before half-time where Southampton began to dominate, hit the post and forced a magnificent save from Mignolet shouldn’t take away from that. After 20 minutes, with the away side a goal up, a graphic flashed up on the screen stating that Southampton were yet to have a shot on goal. At the pace they play, together with the extent of their pressing and the ability they’ve got upfront, it was an amazing statistic in some ways, particularly given how badly outplayed eight of the same starters had been at St. Mary’s in a 1-3 defeat just under a year ago. Think about that for a moment – eight of the same players that started on the last visit there, and yet the two games couldn’t have started much differently. This time it was Liverpool flying out of the traps, going a goal up and treating the opposition to little more than scraps. Gerrard talked about that after the game and correctly pointed to it as evidence that this team learns. Absolutely. They’ve been learning for a year, and the huge difference in the two away days at Southampton is only a symptom of what is a far greater turnaround than even the most optimistic of us could scarcely have hoped for at the beginning of the season. Personally, I thought the centre of our defence had a pretty effective game tonight, all things considered. I wouldn’t go so far as to say that I would have put my money on a clean-sheet when Southampton were creating chances in the first-half, but I thought Agger and Skrtel did well, far better than they did against Swansea. They read the through balls and made clearance after clearance as the home side got it wide and put plenty of crosses in, some good, some not so good. Johnson and Flanagan also did well enough considering how exposed they were at times. The midfield protection for the back four still isn’t fantastic, but the one-on-one battles were contested well against a team with plenty of quality going forward and one which was afforded a certain amount of freedom in wide areas given our decision to leave two-up and play narrow in the middle. I see that as Rodgers trusting his players to win their battles, and they did for the most part. Even for the chance where Lallana hit the post, Agger was all over him like a rash and did just enough to put him off. There’s still plenty of work to be done, undoubtedly, but the defence looked a lot better than some games recently, individually and collectively. Mignolet even punched a corner clear...

The Sterling substitution was perfect, and not just because he scored. It changed the game at a time when it needed to be changed and gave Southampton a different problem to worry about. The reason we’re so excited about the young man isn’t just the pace or the ability, it’s the brain. Rodgers said something after the game that some people see him as a wide player with pace but that they wanted to coach him to be a footballer. Well then, A+ so far for the coaching staff. His goal was a superb finish and the way in which he out-muscled and out-foxed the brick shithouse that is Victor Wanyama at one point brought a smile to my face. It’s nice to have options like that off the bench. I thought Allen too justified his selection, and when Lucas and Sakho return, we’ll have some real depth in certain positions. Most of all, there’s Luis Suárez, the best player in the Premier League. It truly puzzles me why there’s still a discussion about who should win the Player of the Year award.

And by the way?

It’s on.
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #1 on: March 1, 2014, 11:16:37 pm »
Are good teams lucky or do good teams earn their luck?

 I thought we were largely second best all of the first half. Whatever tactical operation was in place, the front two became too isolated despite our obvious intent to start quickly. Primarily I think because Coutinho didn't really contribute as he was supposed to in that diamond. If they were restricted to few shots on target that was more down to their final pass and poor finishing than our defending.

If we had come in level I dont think anybody would have complained, we created very little ourselves.

What none of us can know is if Saints had scored what would our reaction have been? With this side would we have gone down the other end and scored? Its  a distinct possibility but we'll never know. Thats what I find most interesting about this team, its ability to score goals. I was going to write gift but That would almost cheapen the work and effort involved. On the front foot it looks unstoppable, raise its ire and you may get battered.

So were we lucky to be ahead at half time or is that just the way things are under this team?

Not convinced we start the second half well in general, too often its too slow. Nor was  I entirely convinced we showed enough energy first half when S'ton were generally first to the ball. Some excellent young talent they have causing my old nerves a little angst but then in the last 20 mins they looked dead on their feet and we looked very strong. Maybe we simply paced the game better, maybe we are in better condition than most, maybe the intent was to conserve energy and then exploit the last 20?

I dont like the media agenda of bigging us up, I dont like the talk of the title. I dont like the 'believe' or 10 games to glory type of bollocks. I do like one game at a time. We've won nothing yet. Stay focussed on the next 3 points. I hope Rodgers can keep us focussed on that thankfully the next game should take care of itself provided the internationals dont throw a spanner in the works.





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Offline fudge

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #2 on: March 1, 2014, 11:30:36 pm »

What a conflict this team inflicts on you as a fan. From the 'We're not worthy' emotion when you're seeing our attacking players over achieving, those taken in isolation would deliver us our first title since 1990. But then that's equally balanced by the complete lunacy of our defending that drives you to the Harvey Keitel scene in Bad Lieutenant where he shoots the radio. No doubts at all that without our unusually high level of individual fuck ups we'd be top.

Got to say what a good team they are on their day, Pochettini certainly has shades of Rafa there, first half they were great in spells.

Some interesting heros and villains today. Coutiinho must have had one of his worst games for us.

He was an absolute disgrace in the 48 minute as they broke , he literally looked up from five foot as the closest player and just gave up. I don't mind players having shockers but shit attitude nah not having that. It sounds like I'm murdering him, but I'm a big fan normally but hard to remember carrying a player more than that in recent times.

When we got back to 11 players it was indeed poetry in motion.

Skrtel just isn't good enough , never have never will. Our need to attach ourselves as fans to well hard players is always going to end up embarrassing , seeing that fat c*nt Ruddock in his later years taking the piss picking up his wages not even trying but being let off because he did the odd psycho challenge was a classic example. As a third or fourth centre back Skrtels perfectly adequate but certainly not deserving of a starting place.

Johnson was exceptional today, in a young side what he showed with his experience was vital.

I love Flanagans desire and his goal at Spurs was one of the highlights of the season but the last few games have shown the massive limitations of his game. He's not going to improve by what he needs to but personally I'd keep him in the squad for his attitude and see how he develops, till someone better is signed.

As for the 'difficulty' in playing two forwards with Sturridge and Suarez, it's a moot point because Suarez plays as an additional midfielder anyway the way he harries. Anyone who's played the game knows the nightmare of playing against someone like him, I'm not talking the amazing goals it's the incessant way he tracks back and never let's you have a minutes peace.  What more can you say about him except I love him so much it hurts to walk, I've been like a tripod since he came back from suspension.

The utter fuckwittery with some of our passing at the back defines the logic of death by football unless that death is by suicide.

Particularly liked the '1-0 and you still don't sing' that even they seemed embarrassed to come out with given the ten people that were singing. Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?

Yeah! It's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made of iron.

This is a golden age with some great football being played around Europe but I'd not swap any of them for this emerging experiment with Brendan.
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Offline The 5th Benitle

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #3 on: March 1, 2014, 11:31:06 pm »
A clean sheet, a precious clean sheet. Not surprised at all that Agger and Johnson improved a lot from the previous game - you don't come straight back from injury and play well, it just doesn't happen.


Depth too - having a player like Sterling to come off the bench is a massive asset. Superb to see that pay off so well and so quickly. We have a proper manager don't we.

Offline Corkboy

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #4 on: March 2, 2014, 12:27:21 am »
Oh, mercy, mercy me. Oh, things ain't what they used to be.

The first half was distinctly unnerving. Lallana was the most influential player, always popping up behind or beside Gerrard, always in space, a remarkable performance and one that deserved a goal. We poxed a goal off some good movement and a lucky shin but personally I was delighted to go in a goal up. The deployment of Henderson and Allen as erstwhile wingers meant they were always late to the two on twos, such is their central inclination, giving acres to Shaw in particular. We looked very narrow and part of the reason for that was Coutinho having a genuine shocker. I'm going to say two thirds of the things he tried didn't come off, and I'm talking about basic first touch things. So one cog of the machine wasn't working and Allen and Henderson had to charge inwards to put out fires and then back wingwards again to put out more fires.

Also, Southampton did a very good job of pressing high. Often, we had the ball with Skrtel or Agger and Gerrard wasn't available for an out ball, so we go out to Johnson or Flanagan and try to recycle but they made it difficult. I thought we were very lucky to get to half time ahead.

Second half, the substitution changed the game. Sterling is really becoming a very impressive player. He did more in seconds than Coutinho had done all game but there was more as he took up a central mid position. He muscled the beast Wanyama off the ball, he protected it, he made the simple pass. At 2-0 up, this boy was calmly assuming responsibility for the tempo of the game, when to go slow, when to go fast. Suarez and Sturridge were outstanding, and Gerrard's pass for the Sterling goal was outstanding, and some of our defensive play was outstanding but Sterling. Wow.

Offline StevenLFC

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #5 on: March 2, 2014, 10:32:09 am »
We got a bit of luck with our goal and Lallana's shot rebounding out off the post, and I thought Southampton were much the better side for the first half. The Mignolet save was excellent, and I think if Southampton score at that moment, they go on to win the game.


The decision to bring on Raheem Sterling was a great one by Brendan Rodgers. I thought we were going to revert back to 4-3-3 but Rodgers kept the diamond formation. However the only difference was we now had Sterling at the tip of the diamond and he was prepared to carry the ball more than Phiippe Coutinho. That meant we had an 'out ball' as for much of the first half we kept giving Southampton the ball back too quickly.


Great win by Liverpool, and great work by Brendan Rodgers to employ a new system.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #6 on: March 2, 2014, 10:52:02 am »
Thought we were lucky to be ahead after 45 mins. Suarez scored a typical fox in the box goal. A lucky bounce and he found the corner with an excellent strike. No hesitation and the ball was in the net. At the other end, they hit the post and we were lucky. Mignolet made a great save and we stayed ahead. In the first, I was concerned we gave them so much space. That space between midfield and defence. Fortunately for us, Southampton's attack is not of the same quality as ours. Which, of course, isn't surprising. We are the best at scoring goals. While we gave them space, I also felt we were just a couple of well-timed runs away from a safe win.
Then came the second half. And we gave away less space. And we scored a beautiful second goal. A goal that won us the game. That it was Sterling who scored, just after coming on, was symptomatic. Rodgers managed to address what we needed and he added sharpness just when we needed it.

But like I said yesterday, it's Suarez that sums up the game for me. He wasn't on fire, but due to his attacking qualities he finished with 1+2. Three points for him and three for the team. And it was not the least bit surprising.

        * * * * * *


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Offline Aristotle

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #7 on: March 2, 2014, 12:56:48 pm »
One thing I'll raise, which I was honestly kind of surprised to see, and in a way I thought was possibly down to the introduction of Allen to the side. The games against West Brom, Fulham and Swansea showed the best and the "worst" of Gerrard. It's pretty impossible to talk about, without descending into clichés. But for all the want of Gerrard in the 'Pirlo role' he's still holding on to the reactionary role he had for the past 15 years. He sees the ball, he attacks it, he sees a team mate in trouble, he goes out of his way to help him. Gerrard, more than anyone, has been instrumental in the emergence of Flanagan. He's always there when the young man has problems with the opposition. It's a great thing to have for moral and team chemistry. It's less than ace when he's playing the most disciplined role on the pitch. I noticed this in the games previously mentioned. Sometimes Gerrard was "out of position" but then on the flip side, he was usually there whenever Flanagan had problems playing the ball out of defence.

To try and highlight this point in the difference Allen makes in this aspect, look at Henderson's 2nd vs. Swansea (alternatively, it could just as easily be the versatility under Rodgers, regardless of personnel). "Triangles" are all the craze in analytics these days. Having the option to pass to two different players, who then has the option to pass to two different players. Look when Coutinho breaks with the ball. Allen drops into the pocket of space, Coutinho doesn't take the pass so Allen looms behind the Swansea midfielder (think it was Canas, but can't really remember). Coutinho breaks it to Gerrard. He plays a relatively simple pass to Flanagan, we see Sturridge making the run all the way to the center, dragging 2 defenders with him as Flanagan plays it back to Gerrard. This for me is a key difference in *insert any buzzword of philosophy/mentality/bravery/spirit/make-your-own-Sundae-bar* between Allen and the likes of Coutinho and Sterling. Allen might be more cautious (which doesn't have to be a bad thing) but he reads the game really well - and to that extent we must give full credit to the transformation of Jordan Henderson. Allen's perfectly aware that if you give Gerrard a runway to make a pass, he will make it. So instead of adding bodies to the box he lurks around, circling around the two Swansea central defenders who push up on him to prevent the (natural) pass to Allen. Henderson looks up at Gerrard and makes the run for the box. In doing so they isolate Swansea's midfield from the last man on they pitch they would have wanted to, Suarez. By his outragous standards, Suarez miscontrols the ball. But Swansea's midfielders who were expecting the short pass to Allen are caught flatfooted and make a run for it. Swansea's line drops into their box out of fear that Suarez will turn on them. With the space behind him, Suarez could've taken a 5m detour to get a better angle and still have been completely on his own. When he eventually takes the shot he's under not pressure from anyone, except the central defender who can't block anything but the near post - which was the impossible angle. Suarez shoots, Henderson breaks unhurdled and we score.

Now that might've been weirdly specific, considering it happened in another game. But I think it was characteristic of the game we played, with Allen starting. It compensates for Gerrard's "urge" to help Flanagan out without losing discipline in midfield. That understand Allen has of the game - added with Henderson's raw physicality and willing to make the runs where the opposition has no choice but to track him for fear of looking the fool. This in turn gives Gerrard the platform to play his long passes. Playing Allen plays to Gerrard's strengths, kind of lke a the contain line for the QBs pocket in the NFL. Just standing in the way to allow him time to pass.
I said this of him after the Swansea game.
We have a very different bunch of midfielders. Joe Allen is kind of a blend of all 3. He's not better than any of them at any one thing, but he could step up into all 3 positions. And in a 60+ game season, that could prove vital.
And I think that was the case yesterday. He dropped deep to help shield the center backs. He provided the pass option out of defence. He took over the dribblng when Coutinho (who it has to be said, had a poor game) was off and then near the end he was right up there with Suarez, in the box, when the penalty was given.

I won't go into any details of the game. They've been covered - or will be in due time - and I just wanted to highlight something I've noticed in recent games. In the team Rodgers is building, the likes of Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling and Henderson are becoming players no one wants to play against. When Gerrard is on his day, he's absolutely lethal, second only to the bearded demi-god. And in a team like that, having someone like Allen is crucial. He might not be the type opposition play would name in their "top 5 I never want to play against" but he is the type of player everyone wants to play with. And you know what, I kinda like that in a team.
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Offline Hinesy

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #8 on: March 3, 2014, 12:01:37 am »
Another fantastic win and another fantastic round table.
Yep.

Offline DanA

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #9 on: March 3, 2014, 01:27:16 am »
Southampton were unlucky not to score 1 or 2 but by the same token we were unlucky not to score 4 or 5. Henderson had a good chance on his left, Sturridge was clean through and tried the pass. And it was a good save to deny Gerrard from range. We may not have dominated the game but we dominated the good scoring opportunities and more importantly have the players capable of making the most of them.
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Offline farawayred

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #10 on: March 3, 2014, 02:37:48 am »
Sometimes luck conspires against us, sometimes it is with us. I think that if we had played Stoke with Lee Probert refereeing, we could have lost easily. He just doesn't call clear fouls; he's not biased, just incompetent (IMO). In this case, we were lucky that Soton play good football and there weren't many bad fouls.

I was most impressed with the organization of the entire team compared to the previous game. Started a bit shaky, but grew quickly into the game. Everyone played for the team and it was nice to see. Having said that though, the attack and defense has been separated at times, not as much as against Swansea, but too much for my liking. Coutinho wasn't tracking back and on several occasions he just watched players pass him by with the ball, leaving the work to Henderson. The full backs too need to improve a bit before the United game though. I wish we had a LB, because that's just not Johnson's position. He can do a decent job there, but he is so much better on the other side. Maybe we will see Johnson and Cissokho in about a fortnight...

I doubt that we will play again with the diamond against United, but if we do, a number of aspects need to be worked on.
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Offline Canuck33

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #11 on: March 3, 2014, 03:22:43 am »
Wow! Some great posts in here. Long read, but totally worth it.

I especially like the bit about Allen from Aristotle. And I couldn't agree more. The lad is definitely versatile, able to play the 3 different midfield roles required in Rodgers' style of play, which we just have witnessed a new variation of. I would actually go even further and say that it is 4 different roles, adding the wide midfielder role to the other 3 we have been mostly deploying this season. And with Coutinho, as already numerously pointed out, having a stinker, it was not an easy task for either Allen or Henderson.

That Henderson would adapt to whatever is asked of him, we were surely all aware by now. But to see Allen step right in and up was quite refreshing to see. After being on the receiving end of a lot of criticism, he seems to have turned a corner of sorts and maybe will be able to shake off the stigma of his previous work relation with Rodgers and his price tag.

All in all, great game, vital 3 points, successful experiment.
« Last Edit: March 3, 2014, 03:24:18 am by Canuck33 »

Offline DanA

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #12 on: March 3, 2014, 05:01:29 am »
Why do people suppose Rodgers used a diamond formation and was it worth continuing to experiment with against other opposition?

We obviously won and won well against good opposition but I'd hate to play that way against Chelsea for instance. Hazard would kills us IMO.

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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #13 on: March 3, 2014, 05:25:40 am »
Why do people suppose Rodgers used a diamond formation and was it worth continuing to experiment with against other opposition?

We obviously won and won well against good opposition but I'd hate to play that way against Chelsea for instance. Hazard would kills us IMO.

Southampton play a very tight attacking trio to press, normally. They move as a unit across the field to compete for the ball. Add their forward, and their two defensive mids, and they effectively press with 6 players.

Now, do what we did in the home game, and play a 4-3-3 shape, and they effectively have a 6v5 advantage (their 6 against our back four and holding mid).

Playing a diamond midfield with a holding player and two workers beside him, gives us a 7v6 advantage in terms of the numbers. It also means we can double up with the fullback without sacrificing midfield strength. Once we have the numbers up, we can then focus on positioning and space. That leaves an attacking trio ready to pounce when the ball is regained. The problem is that the Number 10 has to be on-form, and until Sterling got on the field, we were really defending with 7 and attacking with 2, with a totally ineffective Coutinho essentially playing like the definitive "luxury" player. Sterling is what made it work, really, but essentially we competed with their press by simply dropping off and adding numbers behind the ball, condensing the space, and hitting them on the break with long passes.
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Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #14 on: March 3, 2014, 05:40:24 am »
Southampton play a very tight attacking trio to press, normally. They move as a unit across the field to compete for the ball. Add their forward, and their two defensive mids, and they effectively press with 6 players.

Now, do what we did in the home game, and play a 4-3-3 shape, and they effectively have a 6v5 advantage (their 6 against our back four and holding mid).

Playing a diamond midfield with a holding player and two workers beside him, gives us a 7v6 advantage in terms of the numbers. It also means we can double up with the fullback without sacrificing midfield strength.
i don't understand. With the ball, don't the outside points of the diamond play broadly the same role as in a 4-3-3? Certainly, we could've played 4-3-3 and asked Allen and Henderson to drop deeper than the "2" have been lately to break the press, and still played with wide players, no?

My interpretation was that Rodgers 1) wanted to keep Coutinho central while still winning the midfield battle (and thus didn't want to move Henderson wide), and 2) knew Southampton's fullbacks would be very aggressive and was looking to exploit the 2-v-2 for Suarez and Sturridge at the back that would create.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #15 on: March 3, 2014, 05:46:36 am »
i don't understand. With the ball, don't the outside points of the diamond play broadly the same role as in a 4-3-3? Certainly, we could've played 4-3-3 and asked Allen and Henderson to drop deeper than the "2" have been lately to break the press, and still played with wide players, no?

Not really. In a defensive diamond midfield (a diamond midfield is either played as a 4-3-1-2 or a 4-1-3-2 - we played it as the former), your two lateral midfielders have more defensive roles than they do in a 4-1-2-3. They are not supposed to be link-men with the attack - that's the job of the Number 10. Even with the ball, they are not supposed to simultaneously go forward and search for space, in the way that the two lateral mids in a 4-1-2-3 would, thus exposing the space around the holding mid. You're relying on your attacking trio to create the chances, and the three central mids being very, very conservative in the amounts of forward runs they make.
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Offline Kashinoda

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #16 on: March 3, 2014, 05:47:12 am »
Sometimes luck conspires against us, sometimes it is with us. I think that if we had played Stoke with Lee Probert refereeing, we could have lost easily. He just doesn't call clear fouls; he's not biased, just incompetent (IMO). In this case, we were lucky that Soton play good football and there weren't many bad fouls.


To win the league you're always going to need some good fortune, our 2008/09 campaign was littered with lady luck early on - with red cards for the opposition at pivotal moments for us. We'll need a slice more before the season is up if we're to go on and win this league.

Despite the two times they should perhaps have scored, the clean sheet will do wonders for the confidence of our defence (who performed well it must be said). All I've been hearing all week was 'Liverpool can't win the league because of their defence', hopefully this will be something to build on.
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Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #17 on: March 3, 2014, 06:02:13 am »
Not really. In a defensive diamond midfield (a diamond midfield is either played as a 4-3-1-2 or a 4-1-3-2 - we played it as the former), your two lateral midfielders have more defensive roles than they do in a 4-1-2-3. They are not supposed to be link-men with the attack - that's the job of the Number 10. Even with the ball, they are not supposed to simultaneously go forward and search for space, in the way that the two lateral mids in a 4-1-2-3 would, thus exposing the space around the holding mid. You're relying on your attacking trio to create the chances, and the three central mids being very, very conservative in the amounts of forward runs they make.
Formations aren't rigid like that though; there are a million different variations. I agree that's an accurate description how we've played it, and maybe is the usual, but it's not set in stone. The way Milan played 4-3-3 under Leonardo, for instance, was absolutely with the 3 midfielders playing like those in a 4-3-1-2. Rodgers could've asked them to play deeper. Obviously, you might have some problems linking the play then, but you'd have Coutinho coming inside very quickly from the left anyway.

I can see what you're saying in that the diamond lets the outside CMs be more conservative without sacrificing central attackers, I just think there was a bit more to it as well.

EDIT: Thinking about it, I get your point more. Leondardo's Milan were the quintessential broken team for good reason--if you've got no central players whose job is to link the play, you're in trouble. I think there were a confluence of factors, but I see that the press was a big reason, maybe the biggest.

I still think it was at least as much to do with wanting two strikers up against Lovren and Fonte as anything else.
« Last Edit: March 3, 2014, 06:14:00 am by ElstonGunn »

Offline DanA

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #18 on: March 3, 2014, 06:10:04 am »

Southampton play a very tight attacking trio to press, normally. They move as a unit across the field to compete for the ball. Add their forward, and their two defensive mids, and they effectively press with 6 players.

Now, do what we did in the home game, and play a 4-3-3 shape, and they effectively have a 6v5 advantage (their 6 against our back four and holding mid).

Playing a diamond midfield with a holding player and two workers beside him, gives us a 7v6 advantage in terms of the numbers. It also means we can double up with the fullback without sacrificing midfield strength. Once we have the numbers up, we can then focus on positioning and space. That leaves an attacking trio ready to pounce when the ball is regained. The problem is that the Number 10 has to be on-form, and until Sterling got on the field, we were really defending with 7 and attacking with 2, with a totally ineffective Coutinho essentially playing like the definitive "luxury" player. Sterling is what made it work, really, but essentially we competed with their press by simply dropping off and adding numbers behind the ball, condensing the space, and hitting them on the break with long passes.


We did look like long ball up to our front two team in the first half but even that wasn't clear because I thought we had a lot of "passive" possession. Seemed like the game changed with the introduction of Sterling. Less possession but we won the ball back high up the pitch in dangerous positions and equally importantly he was quick to join the attack.

We saw how easy it was for Gerrard to split the CB and fullback after winning it leading to Sterlings goal. Actually it seemed training drill esk. Perhaps a testament to Rodgers tactical nous?

I thought it was interesting that Sterling looked so comfortable as a no.10. Could he have a future there? Nightmare combination of tenacity fighting for possession and quickness getting forward before defences can settle.
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Offline Euskadi

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #19 on: March 3, 2014, 06:13:27 am »
Firstly, what a fantastic and encouraging result, I use the word encouraging because I would like to follow the manager's prudent lead as opposed to the media's agenda of "bigging" us up at a time when the pressure is on. Having watched the Arsenal game with a friend of mine who is a gunner, the look in his eyes told you that this situation was all too familiar for him, he is normally very heated when watching the match but not this time, it is as if this time, like his team he had given up.
On the other hand from the start I was excited and confident of a result against Southampton, that isn't to say that I expected an easy game but I believe that the manager's ideas are really starting to click with our side, a side which has a polyvalence that is even more apparent when compared to the former team mentioned above. I was not surprised to see that we had changed the system again, round table posts no longer begin with a blue print of how we set up in our previous match followed by some small tactical adjustments, the events that followed, the result and possibly a smiley face.  We now find ourselves in a situation where we have our work cut out for us because our manager has decided that it is no longer good enough to just expect that we will win by playing the same system week in week out, what can be deduced from this season most notably is that he wants intelligent and adaptable players who are switched on during every training session to make some quite serious alterations for the upcoming match. This could not have been more apparent last Sunday when we set up in a diamond shape 4-2-2-2 with the blanket drawn further away from the goalkeeper than we are used to away from home, and packed midfield which forced Southampton to try and play down the wings with their full backs overlapping at will.
The first half was somewhat concerning but for Suarez's superbly taken goal marked by the chaos that preceded it due to the fact that no team in the league has been able to handle the most feared partnership the first division (yes division one, Sky did not invent football and neither did BeIN sports for that matter) has seen for years, a partnership that scored than most teams in the league, including our bitterest rivals Everton and Manchester United. What followed for most of the first half was an onslaught by Southampton, Lallana was superb as he has been all season, finding space and shielding to wait for players to get into space whilst always keeping his head up. Mignolet and the post saved us from conceding an equaliser, though having said all this it started to become clear that our attackers were starting to exploit the space left by the full backs and on a couple of occasions could have been clear on goal but for our number 10 not having his best of games in a red a shirt.
Second half was a different prospect all together with our team coming out fast off the blocks with an intensity and appetite to go for the second. It would not be long until our number 10 was replaced by Sterling who made an immediate impact giving the opposition another pacey and intelligent forward to think about. PoP did a little piece on shadow runs and when Raheem found himself unmarked in the box, he was a shadow, a ghost to most on the pitch bar one man, the most important person on the pitch at that present moment in time, the man with the ball, our number 7, two nil, game over.
More could be said on the game or individual performances, our pint sized midfielder Joe being an incredibly intelligent player both on and off the pitch who is able to slot in as soon as he is back from injury, our technically gifted and intelligent engine who some sections of the British media would deem as an oxymoron, our back four which pushed up when faced with one or two players dribbling towards them, the level quality yet ease that we were able to play out of the back in the second half using simple yet effective one twos. Oh I could go on for days but the thread would have to be renamed RoundMe. It was a beautiful display of a team that is nearly there.
The post match conference by our manager where he explained that he decided to go for this system in order to firstly pack the midfield and close off the gaps they normally capitalise, force them to play with width and commit their full backs, and lastly to allow our strike force to exploit the space left by their full backs, was for me, the most convincing part of the whole day. We have a manager who does not only seek to block off space but is also intent on then forcing them play one way to create a weakness in order to maximise the use of our most important assets. Genius. Maybe I should have saved myself some time and only posted the last paragraph of this post.
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Offline dirks digglers

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #20 on: March 3, 2014, 07:08:44 am »
Fantastic result and an OP to match. Worth comparing and contrasting this with the home game earlier in the season, and perhaps wondering with hindsight why BR set out how he did in that first game. I think before the Anfield match most supporters knew what Southampton would bring to the party, they did exactly that, pressed us precisely like anticipated and we seemed to either not expect it (seems unlikely given further developments) or not have the legs and/or composure to deal with it. Looking back, I wonder, and there are others far more qualified to make a judgment on this, why we were caught short that day, because Saturday's game showed exactly how canny Rodgers actually is as a manager. Lack of available personnel? Too early in the season for us physically to be able to play the tempo we do now?

It was crucial that we set out with tempo and that we controlled the game better this time. The diamond, or more specifically the arrival of a tigerish, pressing Joe Allen really gave us a foothold in the game, and that first 20 mins were crucial in the end. We did superbly in that opening stint. I'd be interested to see what the tactical bods on here thought happened after that. They overran us for the next 25-30 mins and their fullbacks seemed to have the freedom of St Mary's. It was hard to be sure watching at home if we were defending narrow and allowing them to cross or whether they simply exploited the inherent vulnerabilities of our set up? That was the key period, they could have, probably should have scored, but we did enough to get through it. We were due some defensive luck and finally got/earned it.

Sterling's arrival was timely, it just didn't work out for Phil on the day and Raheem's directness, a cool finish, and gloriously (as already mentioned) his total outmuscling of Wanyama were symptomatic of his incredible improvements this season. What a player he's becoming, and consistent too. It's hard not to get excited by this team. Our football is the envy of the league, Utd would kill us for our manager, we have a philosophy we can buy into (and the players clearly do). The most exciting thing perhaps is that we're so clearly still short in areas and can improve so much with some smart acquisitions. Whatever happens between now and the end of the season, it's finally a truly great time to be a LIverpool supporter again and a huge amount of credit should go to Rodgers.
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Online spider-neil

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #21 on: March 3, 2014, 07:37:01 am »
Only a few observations

A) Southampton are a very good team.
They press the life out of teams and are very brave to leave their defenders 2 v 2 against the league's best strikers.
Very unfortunate to go in at half time. Literally a lick of paint off the post away from equalising.

B) Southampton Manic high intensity press.
What kept us penned in for long periods of the first half saw them dead on their feet for the final 40 minutes.
Late in the game we craved them open time and time again.

C) Sturridge isn't the greedy git some people think he is.
Whether Daniel has been reading reports of his greed or whether he badly wanted Suarez to end his drought he squared for Suarez with the goal at his mercy. That is not the act of a greedy player.

D) Suarez is back!
Truth is he was never away, not with all the assists and his influence on games but now he is back amongst the goals.
Luis is just a relentless player and never gives the defenders a moments peace with his constant harrying and press. Lucky for the goal but his persistence deserved the luck. A goal, an assist and won the penalty. MoM by a mile.

E) Johnson had a good game
Regardless of the agenda driven comments to the contrary. Defended well, pushed forwards when the opportunity arose and stopped a certain goal with a crucial block. He isn't 'back' but he's getting their and will be crucial in our run in.

F) Allen and Henderson compliment each other.
Both have energy and mobility and can cover gaps through the middle and out wide, both can make lung bursting runs forwards to support the attacks AND to get back to stop the counter attack. Masterstroke from Brendan to push them wider when Sterling game on to close the gaps the Southampton fullbacks were exploiting with their fullbacks. Pure running for the 90 minutes and still have legs to press in the closing stages when we were carving opening chances for fun. Brendan has a real selection head ache with Allen now.

G) Mignolet's save.
Mignolet's save was match saving. World class save that stopped a certain goal when Southampton were well on top. The way Southampton were pressing, the hostile crowd, a truly crucial save at a crucial time as I think Southampton would have grabbed another goal in quick secession had that shot went in as it would have given them great belief.
More than commanding the area or distribution Simon was bought for his shot stopping and that stop was right out of the top drawer.

Offline Alonso_The_Assassin

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #22 on: March 3, 2014, 08:00:07 am »
To win the league you're always going to need some good fortune, our 2008/09 campaign was littered with lady luck early on - with red cards for the opposition at pivotal moments for us. We'll need a slice more before the season is up if we're to go on and win this league.

Hmm, what about the disallowed goal at home to Stoke? Personally thought it cost us number 19, all told. Anyway, onto the game yesterday and how fitting was it to bury another of our bogey teams? I don't know what the most fitting thing was? The fact there was numerous moments that could be defined as 'fitting' throughout 90 minutes of football just shows how far we've come under the great man that is Brendan Rodgers.

Was it the fact that we scored three goals away against a side who has been resolute at the back for the most part of the season? Or was it the fact that we kept a clean sheet? Or was it the fact that Simon Mignolet actually came off his line not once, but twice?
Is Rodgers 'great'? Yes, he is, indeed, great. The substitution of Phillipe Coutinho for Raheem Sterling illustrates his own progression with this machine that he continues to build and refine as each week passes.

Fundamentally, the three points is all that matters. Southampton will feel unlucky they didn't get something out of it. Luke Shaw was fantastic for them and definitely a player I'd like to see Rodgers bring in during the summer. Adam Lallana also looks a great proposition. A lovely little player, in fact. With the greatest respect to Southampton, I can certainly see him going on to a bigger club in the near future. He may even link up quite nicely with one Daniel Sturridge during the summer in Brazil, although knowing Roy Hodgson, he'd probably choose to deploy him at right back. Or is that David Moy-es? Okay, I'll stop...

The genius that is Luis Suarez is like the gift that keeps on giving. His turn in the lead-up to Raheem Sterling's second was sublime and indicative of a world class player. A player who is always thinking and executes his plans more often than not. 

The clean sheet was promising, if not without its heart stopping moments. Still, to be where we are, luck is required and yesterday we got some, particularly with Lallana hitting the wood work. Mignolet's save was first class and one of his best for us, thus far.

Agger looked far more composed yesterday while Skrtel looked his bullish self minus, a few brain fades off the ball. I'd like to see Jon Flanagan back on the left, as I think he looked far more comfortable than Glen Johnson, who looked good enough defensively but far too rigid and uncomfortable on the ball, which led to numerous stray passes in vital areas of the pitch. He looks sharper fitness wise and with a few more games under his belt, he'll hopefully be an asset for the run in. Plus, he always seems to have a blinder against Old Trafford.

The midfield looked tighter with Steven Gerrard portraying a far more disciplined display than last week, while Joe Allen seemed to have a calming influence on the game, always making himself available to teammates and playing comfortable with his back to goal. Henderson's guile compliments the composure by the former two and when Gerrard plays with discipline, Henderson seems to flourish more with the ball at feet. Our midfield is a machine within a machine.

I said before this game if we beat Southampton and that lot down the M62 I think we'll win the fucking thing. I firmly believe it's on and with yesterday's result the dream is well and truly alive. Make no bones about it. It's on and we can win it, no doubt about it.

Offline Ada069

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #23 on: March 3, 2014, 08:03:57 am »
It was perhaps the most nerve wrecking final 20mins of the first half we've had for a while.


Southhampton put us to the sword but a post hit and good save kept us 1-0 up at half.

why?

because we played a diamond 4-4-2. And it was sort of a narrow diamond then the traditional diamond so it meant that the only players really focussing on wing play were Johnson and Flanno. Both of which were hard pressed to not go to attacking. I recall a moment when Flanagan ran hard and fast and missed his close down that opened up a massive space in behind.

I think that the southampton manager made an error in bringing on a different player at half (Gaston for someone I can't recall). We didn't really seem to change too much at halftime, perhaps Rogers just got them to pull their heads out and keep them in the game. Southampton just didn't come out with the same vigor.

Two or so miss-passes from Coutinho after half time settled his fate of taking him off. He didn't have a very good game.

Stirling scored from his first touch a bit  a very timely position in the box, the shot was good, just missing the defenders boot and the keepers hand but the build up play was promising. Gerrard's ball was perfect and Suarez's turn between the fullback an defender opened the doors for us.

I think for the pressure southampton gave us in their 20min spell was strong but we contained it well. The 2 v 1 against our fullbacks was nail biting to watch but Johnson and especially Flanagan held their nerve.

Penalty was a penalty and it was taken well.

All in all I would say this is Roger's win. The diamond midfield forced Southampton to play wide and he put alot of trust in the fullbacks, and Skrtel and Agger to hold off Lambert. Having both SAS upfront also gave us good opportunities to break having Suarez and Sturridge open. Both of them being around made Southampton more nervous to try and send their holding midfield and fullbacks forward.

I think if Coutinho had his head in the game we might have won by more. Kid is young and will learn.

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Offline Wallingtonian

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #24 on: March 3, 2014, 08:34:09 am »
Southampton were unlucky not to score 1 or 2 but by the same token we were unlucky not to score 4 or 5. Henderson had a good chance on his left, Sturridge was clean through and tried the pass. And it was a good save to deny Gerrard from range. We may not have dominated the game but we dominated the good scoring opportunities and more importantly have the players capable of making the most of them.
At the end of the day we had twice as many shots on target as them and deservedly won 3-0. It's not like we were under the cosh for 90 minutes and did a smash-and-grab 1-0.

Southampton only threatened sporadically and you always expect the home team to have at least a little pressure and the odd goal chance, which is all they had.

I thought we were very comfortable. Compared with last year's horror show away to them it was a walk in the park. Not many teams are going to win there and certainly not by three goals.

It was a fully deserved win for us

Offline Sucker-Punch

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #25 on: March 3, 2014, 08:46:07 am »
Great win! really puts us in the mix with Gooners slipping up  ;D

definite improvement in the defense (still not perfect), i got the feeling they had a sit down and came together and decided to get their sh*t in order. The next game will tell, consistency is key.
glad to see Sterling coming off the bench and made an impact...cant wait to see this kid in Brazil  ::)

i was happy to see Mig coming off hes line a bit  :D maybe he was in the same brain storm session with the defenders  :)

so...Mancs next; i heard that Gerrard & Hendo will be out for this due to 5 yellow cards?
can anyone validate?
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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #26 on: March 3, 2014, 09:11:21 am »
so...Mancs next; i heard that Gerrard & Hendo will be out for this due to 5 yellow cards?
can anyone validate?

No
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Online spider-neil

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #27 on: March 3, 2014, 09:40:29 am »
so...Mancs next; i heard that Gerrard & Hendo will be out for this due to 5 yellow cards?
can anyone validate?

No

That has gone now. For a suspension there now needs to be 10 yellow cards.

Offline Sucker-Punch

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #28 on: March 3, 2014, 11:26:00 am »
did some digging....

FA rules
http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/suspensions

LFC squad stats
http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/26

it was a Manc fan who mentioned that Gerrard and Hendo would be out :no or so he wishes  ;D
lets destroy them  8)
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #29 on: March 3, 2014, 12:03:37 pm »
As others have alluded to, I think we had a fair amount of luck in this game.  We seem to play this game of chance where we believe we will definitely score goals and we'll give up a bit of space at the back in doing so.  I remember Ferguson, on a regular basis, talking about gambling and how he is a gambler.  That language gives you an insight to his methods and approach.  That's basically what we are doing at present, at least in my eyes.  It really does depend on what you are gambling with.

Playing tactically is easier said than done.  Goals change games.  People will know that playing a goal up is completely different to either playing when level or playing a goal down.  It gives you that little more flexibility or confidence to play your game.  The chances of more goals increases.  I'm sure this is part of our thinking.  Get goals, relax and play your game.  Of course in a fluid game like football it's not always possible to follow that plan.

I tend to think that in the remaining games this game of chance will come unstuck.  An individual error or an early opposition goal will test the philosophy.  Our title chances will depend on how we cope with those scenerios.  My hope is that we are still in it (4 points max from the top) with 5 games to go.

Offline Ada069

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #30 on: March 3, 2014, 12:07:23 pm »
did some digging....

FA rules
http://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/suspensions

LFC squad stats
http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/26

it was a Manc fan who mentioned that Gerrard and Hendo would be out :no or so he wishes  ;D
lets destroy them  8)

(this was on the fa site on a different page to the one he linked)
Suspensions are automatically imposed for accumulating 5, 10, or 15 cautions in a season. There are cut-off dates for receiving a sanction as a result of accumulated cautions. They are:
CAUTIONS     CUT OFF DATES (Inclusive)
5   31 December
10   2nd Sunday in April
15   End of Season
For example, a player earning their fifth caution of the season on or after 1st January would not earn any ban. However, if they received ten cautions by the second Sunday in April, a ban would apply. Players who receive 20 or more cautions in a season shall be required to attend a Regulatory Commission.



Whats funny is that Lucas is winning our Yellow cards table still. (with 5) though I think Gerrard might have caught up by now the wiki hasn't been updated recently.
« Last Edit: March 3, 2014, 12:10:11 pm by Ada069 »
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Offline mabbympb

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #31 on: March 3, 2014, 12:16:04 pm »
Great win! really puts us in the mix with Gooners slipping up  ;D

definite improvement in the defense (still not perfect), i got the feeling they had a sit down and came together and decided to get their sh*t in order. The next game will tell, consistency is key.
glad to see Sterling coming off the bench and made an impact...cant wait to see this kid in Brazil  ::)

i was happy to see Mig coming off hes line a bit  :D maybe he was in the same brain storm session with the defenders  :)

so...Mancs next; i heard that Gerrard & Hendo will be out for this due to 5 yellow cards?
can anyone validate?

Yellow cards are wiped clean at the end of December, so if they have had 5 yellows since then i would be surprised. I think we will be ok.

Regarding Mignolet and all the talk of him making a punch and 'not commanding his area', does he need to?

For the past ten years we have been used to Dudek and Reina charging out, and more often than not, 'sweeping' up effectively, however, we have also witnessed A LOT of errors. Dropped balls from corners, players going round the keeper all to easily. So with Mignolet and his style. If the whole team knows that defensively, Mignolet is on his line and is the last line of defence for shot stopping etc, then it is the defenders responsibility to not switch off, and ensure they make any through balls/loose balls/crosses their own. Maybe this is why we are seeing many individual errors, Fulhams second goal being a good example. With time and a consistent back four, we should get better no? Thoughts?

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #32 on: March 3, 2014, 12:27:12 pm »
I think Mignolet has been compounding the problems with our back four. 3-4 goals he could have/should have claimed before it was even a threat. That's not to say I've got a negative view of him, he's saved at least that with ridiculous shot stopping.

But no point denying a weakness.  He'll improve, the back four well become more familiar with him or we may go out and buy a CB to better accommodating this weakness. That's something for Rodgers to decide in summer.
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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #33 on: March 3, 2014, 12:36:54 pm »
My more simplistic take without any re-watch.

We started pretty well and we're dominant or at the very least equal to the task for the opening 10 or 15 minutes. The 1-0 at that point didn't really flatter us. Both teams were struggling to really get their game together but it was certainly them struggling more so than us at that point.

We then entered a phase of 5-10 minutes where we were fucking abysmal in conceding possession and offering them the initiative. All the team were culpable but in midfield Coutinho and Henderson particularly so. For those 10 minutes Soton never really took up our offer but it did sort of augur ominously that if we carried on so abysmally and they could get their act together then we might be in deep trouble.

As if on cue, they did. The clicked wonderfully and quite candidly our midfield and at times our defence was overrun for 20 minutes or so. Thankfully, they're not the most clinical finishers [or at least weren't on Saturday evening] and a combination of their lack of finish and some mixed bag but by and large great defending by Skrtel and Agger and the two full backs plus a really solid and confident display by Mignolet we somehow held out till half time.

Second half began like the first had ended. Thankfully it lasted only a few minutes before a parity was restored - down to a combination of us somehow regaining desperately needed composure [the engine room butterfly apart  :)] and them seemingly dropping their level a notch or two [perhaps Rodgers tactical acumen coming in here but who really knows].

As the second half wore on, so the more assured we became and the introduction of the wonderful Sterling [who thankfully simply hates losing possession] saw that assurance hammered home and our attacking play opening them up.

THANK FUCK

One final comment. If Soton played every game like they did in that 25 minute spell with slightly better finishing they'd be challenging for the title. For that spell they were superb but couldn't quite translate it into goal currency and ultimately were well beaten by the more overall accomplished side. Namely us.  ;D

Offline John C

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #34 on: March 3, 2014, 01:06:49 pm »
If logic not luck is applied then our fabulous victory against the Saints constitutes a massive achievement. It’s irrelevant that they hit the post, we can send them 100 ‘T’ Shirts to help them get over it. It doesn’t matter that a ball fell to Luis from a defenders shin, our world class striker measured up to the finish required to score. All things being equal, luck does play its part in football – Kenny suffered grossly from some poor luck – but the 3-0 score-line represented us swiping a resurgent Southampton to one side with a mixture of class & tenacity.
 
With just still about a quarter of the season to go we can reflect even now on how this victory demonstrates us emerging as a far better prospect to finish in the top 4 than when we witnessed worrying, albeit welcome, 1-0 wins, unacceptable points dropped against certain teams and frankly some bizarre substitutions. We’re more mature, solid and self-assured in securing wins now aren’t we? And its still without a fully fit first choice defence.
 
Much of what we are attaining is down to what many of you eloquent people have described as Brendan’s flexibility, something he was quick to remark about immediately after the win on Saturday
 
Credit to Joe Allen, I thought he was everywhere, he worked hard and was nimble in tight spaces. He’s not my favourite player but he really impressed me.
 
Henderson was also brilliant despite not running freely, I think his arm strapping is hindering his balance but its not diminishing his performances at all. Has anyone else noticed this?
 
I honestly don’t expect this run of imperious form to continue until the end of the season, I fear the occasions when we’ll rue that January window but lets hope I’m wrong
Meanwhile, I’m enjoying witnessing Brendan etch another notch on his bedpost as he whittles down his list of managers to be outclassed.
 
There’s some great posts in this thread that do the game ____________________________________________________________

Offline billys-s3

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #35 on: March 3, 2014, 01:11:17 pm »
there are many fantastic posts here.

we could talk about mignolet's save,the wrong pochetino sub, the diamond,the clever sterling sub and many more.for me the most important aspect of our appearance was our mentality.

 i was very afraid of this game, more than our game at old trafford. but from the first second ,my fear was gone. we started with our foot on the gas and if henderson was better with the ball at his feet, we might have scored in the very first minute. our first attack was a clear sign of intention . it was like we were telling them "we ve come to f*** you".
little things like that play a big role in the psychology of a game. with that kind of mentality, we have a good shout for the league, even with such an inexperienced team.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #36 on: March 3, 2014, 02:40:47 pm »
I’m not sure what more we realistically want from a team this early in its development. It wasn’t a perfect performance on Saturday and I‘m not going to pretend that I was relaxed and happy in the twenty minutes or so leading up to half-time, far from it, but over 90 minutes at a ground where Arsenal and Tottenham both recently conceded two a-piece, Mignolet kept a clean-sheet and had just two saves to make over 90 minutes, two (the Rodriguez chance before half-time and a tame second-half effort from Ramirez). And this with a unit in front of him still without two key players (Sakho, Enrique).

I mean, I’m sure we all smiled afterwards when Stevie wished the best of luck to any side foolish enough to go two-on-two at the back against Sturridge and Suárez. At the same time as Southampton were doing that, some might have similarly said “best of luck” to Liverpool’s central defensive partnership (both maligned of late by many, particularly with Agger being subbed against Swansea and Skrtel responsible for two of their goals) on their task in handling a front three (Lallana, Lambert and Rodriguez) who are individually very good but collectively even better. Flanagan (still a young, inexperienced player at this level lest we forget) and Johnson (recently returned from an injury lay-off and playing out of position) were also charged with manning the wide areas largely on their own against a team that was getting it wide and engineering overlaps time and time again. And yet Pochettino’s much-vaunted Southampton and the front-three that gave eight of those same Liverpool players a real chasing at the same venue just one year ago only managed two real, genuine chances in 90 minutes, just two (Lallana and Rodriguez in the first half).

Me, and it’s only a personal opinion, I’d be inclined to congratulate our back four (the umpteenth iteration that has featured this season) on a job well done rather than focusing on those two Southampton chances as if they somehow indicated that we were lucky. Lucky? If we played a team at home and created two genuine chances in 90 minutes and lost 0-3 while barely getting a kick for the last half-hour, would we consider ourselves unlucky? I doubt it. You can be practical all you like and wonder with trepidation about how the game would have gone if they had scored with one or both of those aforementioned chances, but it’s ultimately a pointless exercise. We could just as easily wonder what would have happened had Sturridge managed just a little more power on that early cross to an unmarked Suárez on the back post. What if that had gone in? Well then both Lallana and Rodriguez would have had to take their chances to even make a draw of it at half-time, wouldn’t they? And then there were all those Liverpool chances and half-chances in the second half as the home side faded and we took a grip of the game. What if those had all gone in? Shit, this was a fixture that we’d all been looking at for months, worried about how we were going to handle Southampton’s pressing and the talent of their front three. If someone had offered us the prospect of Liverpool conceding just two chances of note over 90 minutes, we’d have snapped their arms off up to the shoulder.

So luck? No, I don’t think so. To me, the final score on Saturday evening was, instead, Brendan Rodgers’ well-earned reward for trusting his players to win their one-on-one (and sometimes one-on-two) battles in areas of the pitch that we neglected a little bit so that we could create more advantageous match-ups elsewhere, nowhere more significantly than upfront where Southampton’s willingness to leave Europe’s deadliest strikeforce facing even odds prompted those almost disbelieving words from Liverpool’s captain afterwards. Ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Rodgers’ approach has us sitting second in March and top scorers in the division. The constant refrain of late has been that Liverpool’s defence isn’t good enough to win the League. Keeping a clean-sheet and restricting the likes of Lallana and Rodriguez to two meaningful chances over 90 minutes suggests that it’s good enough to nonetheless bring Champions League football back to Anfield next season. That’s a pretty good starting point.
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #37 on: March 3, 2014, 02:48:08 pm »
So luck? No, I don’t think so. To me, the final score on Saturday evening was, instead, Brendan Rodgers’ well-earned reward for trusting his players to win their one-on-one (and sometimes one-on-two) battles in areas of the pitch that we neglected a little bit so that we could create more advantageous match-ups elsewhere, nowhere more significantly than upfront where Southampton’s willingness to leave Europe’s deadliest strikeforce facing even odds prompted those almost disbelieving words from Liverpool’s captain afterwards. Ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. Rodgers’ approach has us sitting second in March and top scorers in the division. The constant refrain of late has been that Liverpool’s defence isn’t good enough to win the League. Keeping a clean-sheet and restricting the likes of Lallana and Rodriguez to two meaningful chances over 90 minutes suggests that it’s good enough to nonetheless bring Champions League football back to Anfield next season. That’s a pretty good starting point.
As an addendum, it's interesting to point out that under Ferguson United won the league conceding around a goal a game most seasons.  In fact I think there is a season where they won it conceding over 40 goals.  It wasn't until they established the partnership of Vidic and Ferdinand that they had a defence capable of keeping consistent clean sheets.  That's some 17 years into his reign.

Don't want to keep drawing the comparisons but I think they are valid.

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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #38 on: March 3, 2014, 03:19:18 pm »
Southampton play a very tight attacking trio to press, normally. They move as a unit across the field to compete for the ball. Add their forward, and their two defensive mids, and they effectively press with 6 players.

Now, do what we did in the home game, and play a 4-3-3 shape, and they effectively have a 6v5 advantage (their 6 against our back four and holding mid).

Playing a diamond midfield with a holding player and two workers beside him, gives us a 7v6 advantage in terms of the numbers. It also means we can double up with the fullback without sacrificing midfield strength. Once we have the numbers up, we can then focus on positioning and space. That leaves an attacking trio ready to pounce when the ball is regained. The problem is that the Number 10 has to be on-form, and until Sterling got on the field, we were really defending with 7 and attacking with 2, with a totally ineffective Coutinho essentially playing like the definitive "luxury" player. Sterling is what made it work, really, but essentially we competed with their press by simply dropping off and adding numbers behind the ball, condensing the space, and hitting them on the break with long passes.

I heard Rodgers talk about the Diamond 4-4-2 formation that he went with yesterday and he believed that it had caught Southampton out somewhat.
If you look at the 'Average Position' Player Maps for the Swansea game and the Southampton game there are some significant and some subtle differences...
1) Agger & Skrtel are playing a yard or two deeper against Soton that what they did against Swansea.
2) Johnson & Flanagan are playing about 5 yards deeper than what they did against Swansea.
3) Gerrard is also playing a yard deeper than against Swansea.
4) Allen, Henderson and Coutinho are also playing deeper and much closer to Gerrard than the midfield against Swansea. Including the 2 fullbacks that gave us 6 players far closer to each other and the centre circle.
5) That left quite a bigger than normal gap between our front 2 of Sturridge & Suarez who also play about a yard deeper than against Swansea, although Sturridge has replaced Sterling in the front 2.

I didn't like the amount of room that we gave to Luke Shaw to maraud down our right flank and Henderson had to do an awful lot of chasing down from his tucked in right midfield place to the wide left. I thought that Flanagan did really well aided by Henderson. I do like the look of Shaw and he could fit right into our team if he comes to us...
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Re: RAWK Round Table: Southampton 0-3 Liverpool
« Reply #39 on: March 3, 2014, 03:56:47 pm »
Are good teams lucky or do good teams earn their luck?

I thought we were largely second best all of the first half. Whatever tactical operation was in place, the front two became too isolated despite our obvious intent to start quickly. Primarily I think because Coutinho didn't really contribute as he was supposed to in that diamond. If they were restricted to few shots on target that was more down to their final pass and poor finishing than our defending.

If we had come in level I don't think anybody would have complained, we created very little ourselves.

What none of us can know is if Saints had scored what would our reaction have been? With this side would we have gone down the other end and scored? Its  a distinct possibility but we'll never know. That's what I find most interesting about this team, its ability to score goals. I was going to write gift but that would almost cheapen the work and effort involved. On the front foot it looks unstoppable, raise its ire and you may get battered.

So were we lucky to be ahead at half time or is that just the way things are under this team?

Not convinced we start the second half well in general, too often its too slow. Nor was  I entirely convinced we showed enough energy first half when S'ton were generally first to the ball. Some excellent young talent they have causing my old nerves a little angst but then in the last 20 mins they looked dead on their feet and we looked very strong. Maybe we simply paced the game better, maybe we are in better condition than most, maybe the intent was to conserve energy and then exploit the last 20?

I don't like the media agenda of bigging us up, I don't like the talk of the title. I don't like the 'believe' or 10 games to glory type of bollocks. I do like one game at a time. We've won nothing yet. Stay focused on the next 3 points. I hope Rodgers can keep us focused on that thankfully the next game should take care of itself provided the internationals don't throw a spanner in the works.

Agree with pretty much every single point of Vulmea's analysis and commentary, but especially with the parts in bold. I actually think we were lucky but also quite good at translating that good luck into goals and a victory. Of course, we were also unlucky not to have scored ourselves early on with the Sturridge to Suarez pass in front of goal that was just barely intercepted/deflected.

By the way, do not be surprised if, in a couple of years or sooner, Sterling features regularly, consistently and well in a central position, as advanced central midfielder or 'second striker'. The lad has #10 (plus 'speed') written all over him. :-)
« Last Edit: March 3, 2014, 04:06:00 pm by GrkStav »
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