Topic: RAWK Round Table LFC 4-1 WHFC

[steveeastend]

There is some elements to worry about after the West Ham game...

... which there is? 

[GrkStav]

Compare the mistake by Allen at 52'38''. Diame takes the ball away from him easily, takes three touches while running towards our goal with Maiga and Cole to his left and right respectively. Skrtel and Sakho are back, Flanagan is struggling to rush back to cover Joe Cole. Gerrard actually reacts quickly and attempts to close the distance to Diame.

Diame chooses to pass to his right to the streaking Joe Cole only for Sakho to intercept at 52'45'' in a timely fashion, with Allen recovering.

That would've been "the very next phase".

[Hinesy]

Joe Allen was a treat to watch yesterday, as was Sahko.

There's a statement you don't hear often!

[Tony19:6]

Wow some anoraks in here 

[PhaseOfPlay]

Wow some anoraks in here 

And that's the point at which the Round Table loses it's appeal.

[Tony19:6]

And that's the point at which the Round Table loses it's appeal.

Anoraks in the nicest possible sense

[PhaseOfPlay]

Anoraks in the nicest possible sense

You little charmer

[GrkStav]

I have no idea what "anorak" is supposed to mean in this context.

If it was used in reference to my posts, I apologize for contributing to the loss of the appeal of the Round Table for this match.

[Twelfth Man]

I have no idea what "anorak" is supposed to mean in this context.

If it was used in reference to my posts, I apologize for contributing to the loss of the appeal of the Round Table for this match.

Anorak'ism, is the point of the Round Tables.

[GrkStav]

I understand that 'explaining' this is akin to explaining a joke, but can you indulge me?

anorak and anorak-ism, that is.

[John C]

I understand that 'explaining' this is akin to explaining a joke, but can you indulge me?

anorak and anorak-ism, that is.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=anorak ... as an attempt to help mate.

[GrkStav]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=anorak ... as an attempt to help mate.

Got it. Thanks. I suppose it applies. Point taken.

[Tony19:6]

I have no idea what "anorak" is supposed to mean in this context.

If it was used in reference to my posts, I apologise for contributing to the loss of the appeal of the Round Table for this match.

I wasn't having a pop at anyone seriously, it was a lighthearted comment - my bad.

I personally tend to watch the games as a fan, rather than analysing things per se, involving myself in the atmosphere and becoming emotive, illogical, irrational, partisan etc...about the game rather than analysing things frame by frame.

I understand people like to do this (I personally dont have the time or inclination) but I do like to pop in here a day or two after the match to see people's take on the game, which is usually very informative (I dont always agree mind!).

Anyway, detailed analysis and discussion is at the heart of these RT threads, I just sometimes think things can get overcooked at times.

And with that I'm off to my pit my brain is frazzled 

[John C]

Got it. Thanks. I suppose it applies. Point taken.

It doesn't apply really, that lad was messing about, there is some erudite discussion in here although some may suggest its obsessive over-the-top-detail.

As you were.

[GrkStav]

Liverpool’s Shape

Liverpool’s shape, certainly in the first half, was very well balanced. We played a 4-2-3-1 for all intents and purposes, but with Sterling and Coutinho combining well with Suarez, it transformed into probably the first bona fide 4-3-3 we’ve played under Rodgers in a long time. The midfield also held a near-perfect triangle, with Henderson pressing from the front, Allen controlling the space in front of the defence, and Gerrard linking the play. Flanagan played the more conservative fullback role, with Johnson pushing forward aggressively. Sakho and Skrtel played traditionally, close together and split only when needed. This played into Skrtel’s strengths, and apart from the own goal and a couple of other moments, he had a good game:




In terms of attacking play, we dominated on the right side, with 42% of our attacks coming from there, with Johnson playing a prominent role. Our four most involved players in the game were Coutinho, Allen, Johnson and Henderson, with Gerrard up until his departure through injury. Indeed, Henderson, Johnson and Sterling – with Gerrard as usual – looked to play through West Ham with a high number of key passes each. This was a dominant game in every sense of the word. Part of this was the effectiveness of our pressing. In fact, it was probably our best pressing game this season, with the possible exception of Fulham.

PoP, is your diagram based on average position? I would have sworn it was Coutinho in the middle of a 3 in a 4231 and Henderson on the left thereof.. And, of course, my memory/impressions, even after all this anorak-ing was entirely wrong.

[robgomm]

Yeah, WhoScored has the same average position: http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/720286/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2013-2014-Liverpool-West-Ham (at the bottom, player positions).

I thought we were 4-2-3-1 really, as BalesofPlay said, and Coutinho was in the middle, and the left and the right. Wherever you like really

[PhaseOfPlay]

Yeah, WhoScored has the same average position: http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/720286/MatchReport/England-Premier-League-2013-2014-Liverpool-West-Ham (at the bottom, player positions).

I thought we were 4-2-3-1 really, as BalesofPlay said, and Coutinho was in the middle, and the left and the right. Wherever you like really

That's why I put the arrows there - to show that it wasn't a fixed 4-3-3. Sterling and Coutinho dovetailed nicely across the field, with Henderson filling in where needed. The more important aspect to look at was visible when West Ham scored - only Henderson had got back to defend in the box, with Coutinho and Sterling still fairly advanced, leading to the idea that they were more wing-forwards than attacking mids.

[GrkStav]

That's why I put the arrows there - to show that it wasn't a fixed 4-3-3. Sterling and Coutinho dovetailed nicely across the field, with Henderson filling in where needed. The more important aspect to look at was visible when West Ham scored - only Henderson had got back to defend in the box, with Coutinho and Sterling still fairly advanced, leading to the idea that they were more wing-forwards than attacking mids.

Yep, plus it was Coutinho who was 'assisting' Flanagan defensively on our left flank (such as that defensive cover was, in that case).

Truth has outed. 

Looking forward, if Henderson is out for the match vs Spurs, would you throw Luis Alberto in in lieu of him, PoP?

[robgomm]

Aye, I accept all of that. I noticed 4-2-3-1 in the defensive phase, really, which is when you would notice it I guess. I thought the fluidity as the game wore on was very impressive and you have to think that's a pretty deadly front three with Sterling on that form. Sturridge injured, we all worry but Sterling is stepping up. And that's exactly what we gotta hope for with Gerrard's injury, the only (fairly large) caveat being that it'll be in far tougher circumstances.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

A word on Coutinho.

Bloody Hell.

Two words then.

The lad's a little genius now. What might he become in a couple of years? When he receives the ball with his back to goal he turns upfield. There's a man in front, a couple of yards away. He moves towards the man. The man's now petrified he's going to be skinned and backs off and the pressure grows. All that's wanted now is some movement for him. As someone said earlier - it's now Death by Football.

Bloody Hell.

Bloody Marvellous.

Well, I have a bone to pick with our Brazilian Marvel.  First, when he is in our defensive third, we should pay more attention to him as a fan base because this criticism is a small sample size.  Everton's 2nd goal where Lukaku receives and slots it home to equalize 2-2 really pissed me off as young Phillippe just stood there and watched for quite a while. He could have easily snuck in there and made life more difficult.  So, when we look at the goal against West Ham, he had a bout of matador "itus" and could have again easily prevented service into Jarvis.

Now, I do not know how he contributed to Hull's goals, or if these are anomalies, but maybe we might ask a bit more of Phillippe when defending.  Most goals against occur due to four or five errors before the ball goes into the back of the net.  Personally, I would like to see LFC prevent more service from getting into the box.

Picker of Nits

[GrkStav]

Well, I have a bone to pick with our Brazilian Marvel.  First, when he is in our defensive third, we should pay more attention to him as a fan base because this criticism is a small sample size.  Everton's 2nd goal where Lukaku receives and slots it home to equalize 2-2 really pissed me off as young Phillippe just stood there and watched for quite a while. He could have easily snuck in there and made life more difficult.  So, when we look at the goal against West Ham, he had a bout of matador "itus" and could have again easily prevented service into Jarvis.

Now, I do not know how he contributed to Hull's goals, or if these are anomalies, but maybe we might ask a bit more of Phillippe when defending.  Most goals against occur due to four or five errors before the ball goes into the back of the net.  Personally, I would like to see LFC prevent more service from getting into the box.

Picker of Nits

I resemble that remark, as well.

I agree with you 100% on this issue, as well.

On the other hand, his forward marking has improved drastically compared to last season. Proof that it's simply a matter of application and concentration. I don't think Coutinho will ever become a master or devotee of the old-fashioned defending part of midfield play, but he can surely improve a bit.

Another nit to pick (anorak-style): Ball is passed to him by Allen (I think) and he's in the WHU area with the nearest opponent at least 3 yards away. Previously, he had taken two or three longish distance shots, not exactly open, all of which were blocked. So, instead of taking THIS one on, he passes to . . . Flanagan for a left-footed low cross. Sterling did similarly (without passing to Johnson) . . . he just veered to the right and sent in an unsuccessful low cross, instead of either taking a relatively open shot from inside the 18-yard box or attacking the goal/opponents.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

I resemble that remark, as well.

I agree with you 100% on this issue, as well.

On the other hand, his forward marking has improved drastically compared to last season. Proof that it's simply a matter of application and concentration. I don't think Coutinho will ever become a master or devotee of the old-fashioned defending part of midfield play, but he can surely improve a bit.

Another nit to pick (anorak-style): Ball is passed to him by Allen (I think) and he's in the WHU area with the nearest opponent at least 3 yards away. Previously, he had taken two or three longish distance shots, not exactly open, all of which were blocked. So, instead of taking THIS one on, he passes to . . . Flanagan for a left-footed low cross. Sterling did similarly (without passing to Johnson) . . . he just veered to the right and sent in an unsuccessful low cross, instead of either taking a relatively open shot from inside the 18-yard box or attacking the goal/opponents.

Agreed.  Young Coutinho is getting better all the time. 

I hope Scolari is seeing this!  Now, if we see this a third time where he is ball-watching on service or could easily shut down an opponent then, I would hope the gaffer calls him out on it because not only is that a no-go for us but Brazil as well. 

In terms of Coutinho turning a negative into a positive, this would be a great topic to show the Brazilian national team coaching staff.  Coach Scolari, here is a video of my play ---- look at Lukaku's goal and West Ham's goal.  After some discussion with Coach Rogers, we addressed this area by doing this __________ .   This is ________what I have to prevent it from happening again.   Clip of video #1, Clip of Video #2, and getting stuck in.   

After all, in a world cup, you cannot turn off a minute or two or you will get punished.

[fowler9_god]

Well, I have a bone to pick with our Brazilian Marvel.  First, when he is in our defensive third, we should pay more attention to him as a fan base because this criticism is a small sample size.  Everton's 2nd goal where Lukaku receives and slots it home to equalize 2-2 really pissed me off as young Phillippe just stood there and watched for quite a while. He could have easily snuck in there and made life more difficult.  So, when we look at the goal against West Ham, he had a bout of matador "itus" and could have again easily prevented service into Jarvis.

Now, I do not know how he contributed to Hull's goals, or if these are anomalies, but maybe we might ask a bit more of Phillippe when defending.  Most goals against occur due to four or five errors before the ball goes into the back of the net.  Personally, I would like to see LFC prevent more service from getting into the box.

Picker of Nits

Could just be tactical instructions. Rodgers might feel he won't be that handy in the other box.

[wah00ey]

I haven't seen the full 90 so it's difficult to comment in here.  I know a couple of people who think we weren't as good when SG went off and others are saying we had our best spell as soon as he was injured.  So I'm thoroughly confused, all I know is we won :-) and it looks like both SG and Hendo are out for Spuds away :-(.

[Aaron Rattray1]

Laying all the blame on lucas is naive and unfair i feel, yes i know he got dispossessed but we still had time to defend better in which we didn't do

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Could just be tactical instructions. Rodgers might feel he won't be that handy in the other box.

RE: Coutinho's space out

Not a chance.  One of the main responsibilities for midfielders playing the flanks is to prevent service when possible.
The ball-watching on Lukaku is more representative of a bad habit than a coach telling his player to be an outlet for a counter.

[Halcyon Lissome]

I haven't seen the full 90 so it's difficult to comment in here.  I know a couple of people who think we weren't as good when SG went off and others are saying we had our best spell as soon as he was injured.  So I'm thoroughly confused, all I know is we won :-) and it looks like both SG and Hendo are out for Spuds away :-(.

It was a bit of both. When Gerrard came off and we conceded we were a bit all over the shop. It was the timely Suarez goal that really settled the nerves and for the last 10-15 mins we just battered them, as they barely got out of their own half.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

It was a bit of both. When Gerrard came off and we conceded we were a bit all over the shop. It was the timely Suarez goal that really settled the nerves and for the last 10-15 mins we just battered them, as they barely got out of their own half.

The announcers (albeit one time only) offered credit to Rogers for the Martin Kelly substitution as a pivotal time.  I listened to the game but did not watch it.  Curious about this 

[Hazell]

Gerrard came off in the 56th minute (officially, I think it was a minute or two after he came off that Lucas replaced him) and West Ham scored in the 66th minute. We were well on top between the two happening, Sterling had a couple of chances off the top of my head and we basically pinned them in their half for the most part. Well, right up until Lucas lost the ball in our half and West Ham scored a minute or so later. Between West Ham scoring and Suarez scoring our third, we kind of lost our nerve a little which was disappointing but we gladly recovered and saw the game out comfortably. It's a positive for the Tottenham game.

[dumaten]

About the average positions, my impression was that we played a relatively standard 4-2-3-1 in the first half with Coutinho central and often dropping quite deep into midfield. Henderson and Sterling switched wings at some point in the half which is going to "centralise" their average positions.

Then second half we switched to 4-3-3 with Henderson dropping into central midfield and Coutinho much higher up and left-ish. Not sure whether we started the second half like this or whether it was after Gerrard came off.

[exiledinyorkshire]

You cannot possibly be serious. The goal is not down to Lucas and it did not occur "in WHU very next phase of play".

I counted 12 passes, Pop said 8. He is probably right but that's a big difference and I am not normally THAT careless. Be that as it may, 8 passes later, with the play being switched to (their), then to the right, then back to the left, then closer to central. Not exactly 'very next phase of play'.

Edit: I watched it again and counted:

Maiga toe-pokes the ball off Lucas; recovered by Jarvis; (1) or (0)
Jarvis to Nolan; (2) or (1)
Nolan to Noble; (3) or (2)
Noble to McCartney; (4) or (3)
McCartney to O'Brien; (5) or (4)
O'Brien to McCartney; (6) or (5)
McCartney cross towards Maiga (7) or (6): Intercepted by Sakho headed challenge (Maiga possibly in an offside position when McCartney initiates the cross, probably just kept onside by Flanagan);
Nolan recovers the ball and dribbles it away from goal towards WHU right sideline;
Nolan to Demel; (8} or (7)
Demel feigns a right-footed cross and takes Coutinho out who makes no further effort to  put any pressure on Demel;
Demel to Jarvis; (9) or (8}
Jarvis towards Maiga; (10) or (9) intercepted by Skrtel; OG.

As they say, don't piss on my leg and tell me that a warm rain-shower has just broken.

Deadly serious mate, all of that is the very next phase of play to them winning the ball off Lucas. There isn't another transition.

That goal was his fault. It came directly from his mistake. A really, really sloppy mistake. They regained possession kept the ball and scored. All in our half of the pitch.

Its not a dig at him its just a fact. And it may be things like this that lead some people to view him as not the be all and end all.

Just saying like.

[007.lankyguy]

Joe Allen’s Pivotal Role


Allen played a great game and looked a lot closer to the player we paid £15 million for than he did for much of last season (due to his on-going injury, most likely, it has to be said). As mentioned before, 42% of our attacks came down the right, as well as the large majority of our pressing. This would seem to suggest that we Allen was right-side dominant too, but his passing tells a different story. Most people think of the “pivot” and the “double pivot” as defensive roles, shielding the back four – but the “pivot” part of their job is actually to switch play. There are three main methods for switching play – the big switch (which Gerrard excels at), the switch through the forward target (which we don’t have), and the switch through depth (holding midfielder or central defenders). Allen was – to coin a phrase – pivotal in this sense against West Ham. With a lot of the pressure coming on the right hand side, and a lot of the counter-attacking too, whenever Allen got the ball, he looked to release the ball for the pressure zone and move it to the other side of the field:

Sorry mate, is there any chance you could explain these last two switches?

[redtel]

Deadly serious mate, all of that is the very next phase of play to them winning the ball off Lucas. There isn't another transition.

That goal was his fault. It came directly from his mistake. A really, really sloppy mistake. They regained possession kept the ball and scored. All in our half of the pitch.

Its not a dig at him its just a fact. And it may be things like this that lead some people to view him as not the be all and end all.

Just saying like.

It's rare that a goal scored can be put down to one players mistake, except of course if a keeper makes one. Joe Hart is now  in sackcloth.

I would suggest that you can find fault with Johnson, Skrtel and others if you look hard enough.

I doubt Rodger's would look to pin a goal conceded on just 1 player.

[Yorkykopite]

Didn't something like a minute elapse between Lucas losing the ball and the goal being scored? Blame Lucas if you like, but following that principle maybe Adam n Eve should take same of the blame too.

The goal was Skrtel's fault. That's obvious. It was a mis-kick. He tried to hook the ball over his shoulder and was too early on it. Consequently the only contact he made was with his toe. It went the wrong way.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

That goal was his fault.

Goals occur because of a number of factors not just the most discriminate aspect.  Watch the play again and see Coutinho or Flanagan and how they shut down service.  Or watch Mignolet's communication to Skrtel about where he wanted him positioned.   Or watch the lack of a body on Jarvis making the redirection threat stronger in Skrtel's mind.  And last look at Skrtel's choice of a bicycle kick for clearance.  There are always 4 or 5 fuck ups in any goal.  Picking one of them is a waste of time unless there is a consistent pattern.

As phase of play reminds us from time to time, coaching involves relationships and managing human beings.  Blaming one person is usually a waste of time -----> unless it is Joe Allen in front of Everton's goal. 

[exiledinyorkshire]

Laying all the blame on lucas is naive and unfair i feel, yes i know he got dispossessed but we still had time to defend better in which we didn't do

And that's you defending a player from criticism. Criticism that is absolutely justified and not rabid or knee jerk. think about why you are defending a Liverpool player getting mugged mid way in his own half knowing full well that daudling on the ball is going to lead to pressure. Its a pretty basic unintelligent piece of football. Its indefensible. But you crack on. I would be having words with him if I was one of our back 5.

Naïve? this is a professional footballer. He will have been blamed behind closed doors mate.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Didn't something like a minute elapse between Lucas losing the ball and the goal being scored? Blame Lucas if you like, but following that principle maybe Adam n Eve should take same of the blame too.

The goal was Skrtel's fault. That's obvious. It was a mis-kick. He tried to hook the ball over his shoulder and was too early on it. Consequently the only contact he made was with his toe. It went the wrong way.

This is like arguing who got the worst seat on the titanic.  Seriously, a pissing match over who was more to blame between Lucas and Skrtel?

[exiledinyorkshire]

its lucas that gives the ball away.

he gives it away on the edge of our defensive third when the majority of our players are springing to attacking positions.

the time from that point or the number of passes from that point are irrelevant. The ball does not go out of play, it does not transition from one team to the other again so the goal occurs in the next WHU attacking phase.

other players do not make the correct defensive decisions in the build up to the goal, but only one player actually make an unforced mistake and it is Lucas.

Its fucking poor.

[007.lankyguy]

Deadly serious mate, all of that is the very next phase of play to them winning the ball off Lucas. There isn't another transition.

That goal was his fault. It came directly from his mistake. A really, really sloppy mistake. They regained possession kept the ball and scored. All in our half of the pitch.

Meh, you can't say the goal came DIRECTLY from his mistake. There was over 30 seconds between him losing the ball and the ball going in. It was a sloppy mistake yes. But the goal is not his fault as it were.

I don't think you can say it happens in the next phase of play either. In terms of talking about phases of play, technically there's two phases of play in that sequence from Lucas losing the ball and the ball going in - our defensive transition when we lose the ball, and then defensive phase after that. There's also phases of play in possession (if anyone remembers AVB's leaked scout report of Newcastle when he was at Chelsea under Mourinho, there was phases 1-4 in possession). A friend of mine on Twitter summarised those four phases as construction, preparation, creation and finishing stage. They're best shown in terms of sections on the pitch. Technically West Ham go through three of those when they win the ball. So I don't think it's even true to say it happens in the next phase of play.

I'm not absorbing Lucas of any blame by the way. I think we actually looked more coherent with Gerrard and Allen in midfield against Norwich and West Ham.

[Yorkykopite]

This is like arguing who got the worst seat on the titanic.  Seriously, a pissing match over who was more to blame between Lucas and Skrtel?

But it's not. It's like asking whether one should the blame the skipper of the Titanic or the bloke who dropped his spanner into the bilge at Harland and Wolff.