Author Topic: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)  (Read 82819 times)

Online robertobaggio37

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #120 on: November 21, 2013, 02:57:27 pm »
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The biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true.

Online robertobaggio37

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #121 on: November 21, 2013, 03:07:21 pm »
Yesil, Brannagan, Dunn, Lussey and Gerrard trained with the 1st team today.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 03:10:05 pm by robertobaggio37 »
The biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true.

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #122 on: November 21, 2013, 03:54:54 pm »
Why?

If you can tell me why not, I am willing to be convinced.

It seems perfectly obvious why 442 vs 4231 (even our 442) is not the ideal formation for pressing up the pitch.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #123 on: November 21, 2013, 04:13:19 pm »
If you can tell me why not, I am willing to be convinced.

It seems perfectly obvious why 442 vs 4231 (even our 442) is not the ideal formation for pressing up the pitch.

I'm keen to know why you think that too.

Sacchi's all-conquering pressing AC Milan team played in a 4-4-2.
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Offline TheDarkKnight

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #124 on: November 21, 2013, 04:36:42 pm »
First post on the forum lads. Promise I didn't handpick this fixture to join up, it's just a coincidence :D


As usual it's incredibly tough to predict the derby, especially at Goodison. Under Houllier and Rafa we always had a stronger team, that plus me bing younger and more of an optimist meant I always had great confidence of turning them over there. Over the last few years though Everton, to their credit, improved, making this game more of a contest in the process.

In terms of first elevens I think we edge them. We have a better goalkeeper, better centre-backs, a better midfield and, as good as Lukaku is, we have the best strikeforce in the league so we win the attack duel too. Only position I envy them slightly is full-back; I rate Johnson highly but Coleman and Baines as a pair is really good like. We'll probably go in to the derby with Cissokho at left-back, someone I've never been convinced by and who seems an accident waiting to happen (even against Fulham he could easily have conceded a penalty). Mirallas is class on his day too.

I've only seem them for a full match once so far this season; the dullest of dull games against Tottenham three weeks back. Everton looked like a team that wanted to play their way out but Spurs pressed them superbly first-half. Second half Everton were better because they reverted to their more well-known approach of hitting it long. When you've got Lukaku that is a perfectly fine gameplan. Lukaku is obviously class, clinical as fuck and we all saw him bully our defence in his cameos last season. If you put him under pressure though he can wilt it a bit I've noticed. Got a poor first touch and rushes his passing at times. Mirallas is a real threat of theirs, pacy and powerful winger, ripped Wisdom a new one last season at Goodison first-half. My blue mates have been moaning about him playing on the right this season though. But that doesn't mean I'm not slightly concerned by the prospect of him up against Cissokho, with Coleman providing the overlap. Coutinho will have to track back well on Saturday to make that less of an issue for us. Then there's Ross Barkley, been rested their last couple of games and they haven't scored in either; doubt that's a coincidence. He runs with the ball really well so Lucas will need to bring his A-game. Also he'll have extra motivation with it being against us, he can shoot well on both feet so, should he start, we'll need to close him down from 25 yards out or less.

Enough about them though. As the excellent OP suggested we're obviously more familiar with the pass and move game than our neighbours, so if they try playing us at that we should beat them. If BR sticks with the Skrtel-Agger pairing at the back, Martinez should instruct his players to lump it. As much as I like the aforementioned partnership, and it should be more than enough in most games, I'd rather only one featured Saturday. A partnership of Toure-Agger, Skrtel-Sakho or, dare I say it, the two left-footers would be my preference.

Distin's getting on but he's still rapid over a distance. Prone to a lapse of concentration when pressed though, as we saw in the FA Cup semi-final in 2012. Jagielka's weaknesses should be exposed by a fleet-footed pairing like our two up top. He struggled with Germany's pacy, skilful and intelligent attack the other night so I'd like to think SAS' movement has a similar effect. Gerrard will raise his game for this, he always does.

Buzzing for the game. Loss would be disastrous, draw would be okay, win would make me delirious for a week.

I'll take the latter :) not stupid enough to predict a result for this though!

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #125 on: November 21, 2013, 04:38:48 pm »
Sakho will start on Saturday imo.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 05:33:38 pm by Solomon Grundy »

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #126 on: November 21, 2013, 04:44:32 pm »
If you can tell me why not, I am willing to be convinced.

It seems perfectly obvious why 442 vs 4231 (even our 442) is not the ideal formation for pressing up the pitch.
I've said this before on here but a lot of teams who play a 4-2-3-1 for example, retain a shape of 4-4-2 in the opening phases of the opponent's build up. Dortmund with Klopp for example play a 4-2-3-1 but in the opening phases when the opponent has the ball with their defenders or in midfield, they often have a 4-4-2 shape. This is the same for most 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1 teams. When the opponent is in Phase 1 or 2 (Construction and preparation, see below via @martinlewis94 on Twitter), teams often defend as a 4-4-2.



So if you look at shape basic shape match ups if we play 4-4-2 on Saturday and Everton play 4-2-3-1. Take for example the opponent has the ball with the CB. Seeing as we're talking about pressuring high, let's say the striker goes to pressure him:



The forwards block the passes straight into midfield so the ball goes to the right back



The right back has the ball, the team adjusts so they keep it condensed in the positive space around the ball. Your LCM picks up the closest opposing CM but only up to a certain point so they are at an angle to the LW. The other CM again covers so there isn't space between the lines for the AM. The RW forms an angle on the far side again to keep it tight in that area. The LB pushes up to pick up the opponent's RW. Let's say the CF who previously pressed the CB stays with him to make sure the ball can't be passed back to him. The other CF hopefully then moves backwards so he can also keep the space in midfield tight.



The opposing team's RB then plays it to the CM. The 4-4-2 team again adjusts. The closest CM goes to put pressure on the ball. The LW moves into a covering position. The other CM is also in a covering position, blocking the passing lane inside to the AM, but also ready to go and put pressure on the ball if the ball is passed sideways the opposing team's other CM. Both CFs start to move back to condense the midfield area and put pressure on the midfielders from behind.

To be honest there's so many permutations you could talk about here. So many movements that the opponent could make. So many passing options. But the point I'm trying to make is that 4-4-2 can easily pressure high up the field if they take up the right positions, stay organised and compact and continue to adjust to what the opponent does. I think you'll find that Everton will also defend as a 4-4-2 in the opening phases of our build up as well. Real Madrid do. Man City do. Arsenal do. Dortmund often do. Atletico Madrid do. Man United do. Chelsea do. It's more about how organised, coordinated and compact you are. The man who is responsible for many of the modern ideas on pressing and defending, Arrigo Sacchi, nearly always played 4-4-2 in defence.

There's so much you could analyse but 4-4-2 as a defensive shape is the most popular out there. If the opponent has pushed you back to the edge of your area then you might want to drop a CF in front of the midfield so that you effectively are a 4-4-1-1. But if you're thinking about pressuring high up the pitch, there is NO reason why 4-4-2 can't work



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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #127 on: November 21, 2013, 04:54:17 pm »
Sakho will start on Sunday imo.

Saturday ;)

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #128 on: November 21, 2013, 05:18:50 pm »
If the games had fallen differently I would be quite confident, because frankly we are better than Everton, but I am nervous following the international break. Lucas has flown half way across the world, and Gerrard generally looks knackered after an international break. Suarez played 90mins in a pointless friendly and won't be home till tonight and Sturridge looked unfit and out of form even before the owl played him for a full 90mins where he was asked to chase hopeless balls. That's essentially a huge chunk of the spine of our team with question marks on fitness. I don't doubt the commitment of any of the above players, but if it's a tight game then stamina will almost certainly come into the equation as the match goes on.

Add in the Cissokho factor, and I think this will be far tougher than people are suggesting.

My line-up would be Mignolet, Johnson, Toure, Sakho, ?, Allen, Gerrard, Henderson, Coutinho, Suarez, Moses with Sturridge coming off the bench. The midfield worked well against Fulham (as predicted by most) but for a game like this I'd like a bit more energy and mobility, and Allen is coming off the back of a good performance for Wales in that deep-lying position. Sturridge actually hasn't been playing all that well of late (strangely despite some brilliant goals) and he just doesn't look quite right, I don't know if he's more unfit than he's been letting on. He's not really near the player who was completely unplayable at points last season so it's a testament to how good he is that he's joint top scorer in the league. If he starts the derby I honestly imagine him having a fairly indifferent game where he looks off the pace, so maybe a subs appearance would be better? It'd be a tough decision to drop either of our strikers for the derby, but I think we need a bit more defensive work rate. Sakho absolutely has to start, if not because of his performance for France and how high his confidence will be, then because he's the perfect player to put against Lukaku.

Offline Solomon Grundy

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #129 on: November 21, 2013, 05:34:03 pm »
Saturday ;)

Haha I know. Corrected it now. :)

Offline EstonianRed

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #130 on: November 21, 2013, 05:55:00 pm »
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Offline csgreen

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #131 on: November 21, 2013, 06:20:38 pm »
With Enrique out, it does make for some difficult decisions.  I suppose the options are:

Keep 4 at the back and:
1) Swap in Cissokho.  I haven't been moved by his performances thus far, but I don't think he's been as bad as his thread makes out...
2) Move Johnson to the LB and play Kelly/Flanagan at RB.  Kelly hasn't really looked healthy yet and I'm not sure that Johnson at LB + Flanagan at RB is better than Johnson at RB + Cissokho at LB. 
3) Play either Agger or Sakho at LB.  Blah for this.  They're both good on the ball for CBs, but I'm not convinced either makes a decent LB.  Plus I live my life according to the motto, "Any idea that would seem reasonable to Roy Hodgson is probably totally wrong." 

Switch to 3 at the back and:
4) Maybe put Henderson into one of the WB positions with Johnson at the other?  It would end up being lopsided, which may or may not be a problem. This formation also pretty much necessarily requires that one of Coutinho, Suarez, Sturridge starts on the bench, which again, may or may not be a problem.   

Personally I'd order those 4/1,3,2 from best to worst options... 

Offline Xabi_14_Alonso

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #132 on: November 21, 2013, 06:21:12 pm »
Any idea who the referee will be?

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #133 on: November 21, 2013, 06:31:19 pm »
Any idea who the referee will be?

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #134 on: November 21, 2013, 06:52:40 pm »
With Enrique out, it does make for some difficult decisions.  I suppose the options are:

Keep 4 at the back and:
1) Swap in Cissokho.  I haven't been moved by his performances thus far, but I don't think he's been as bad as his thread makes out...
2) Move Johnson to the LB and play Kelly/Flanagan at RB.  Kelly hasn't really looked healthy yet and I'm not sure that Johnson at LB + Flanagan at RB is better than Johnson at RB + Cissokho at LB. 
3) Play either Agger or Sakho at LB.  Blah for this.  They're both good on the ball for CBs, but I'm not convinced either makes a decent LB.  Plus I live my life according to the motto, "Any idea that would seem reasonable to Roy Hodgson is probably totally wrong." 
Switch to 3 at the back and:
4) Maybe put Henderson into one of the WB positions with Johnson at the other?  It would end up being lopsided, which may or may not be a problem. This formation also pretty much necessarily requires that one of Coutinho, Suarez, Sturridge starts on the bench, which again, may or may not be a problem.   

Personally I'd order those 4/1,3,2 from best to worst options...

What about if Rafa did it?
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #135 on: November 21, 2013, 07:00:04 pm »
Sakho will start on Saturday imo.

IYO? ;)

Actually I think as well he could be playing but probably within a three at the back with Agger and Skrtel...
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 07:12:11 pm by steveeastend »
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #136 on: November 21, 2013, 07:24:42 pm »
I've said this before on here but a lot of teams who play a 4-2-3-1 for example, retain a shape of 4-4-2 in the opening phases of the opponent's build up. Dortmund with Klopp for example play a 4-2-3-1 but in the opening phases when the opponent has the ball with their defenders or in midfield, they often have a 4-4-2 shape. This is the same for most 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1 teams. When the opponent is in Phase 1 or 2 (Construction and preparation, see below via @martinlewis94 on Twitter), teams often defend as a 4-4-2.


Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. I have certainly moved closer to accepting that 442 can be a formation defensively for marking/pressurizing high up the pitch after reading that. i am not yet fully convinced though.

Somewhat off-topic: what defensive formation were Southampton in when we played against them last?
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Offline lfcmaster

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #137 on: November 21, 2013, 07:31:23 pm »
really looking forward to this

this is a must win game if we are to get top 4


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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #138 on: November 21, 2013, 07:37:53 pm »
Thank you for taking the time to explain this to me. I have certainly moved closer to accepting that 442 can be a formation defensively for marking/pressurizing high up the pitch after reading that. i am not yet fully convinced though.

Somewhat off-topic: what defensive formation were Southampton in when we played against them last?

What would you say it is?

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #139 on: November 21, 2013, 07:44:19 pm »
I have little doubt that we will score in this game. We normally create a few chances from open play but if you add to that Gerrard's set-piece deliveries, Suarez and his individual magic and our ability to counter-attack then I'm sure we will score at some point. Our team has pretty much been picking itself besides one or two players at the back but I don't think it's certain either way what the team will be. Suarez and Sturridge won't be 100 percent, Gerrard has had injections, Lucas has flown all the way around the world, Enrique is out and you can make a case for all four centre backs to play. I have a suspicion Sturridge will be on the bench with Suarez up front with Coutinho and probably Moses supporting him.

Everton have been an odd side to watch and monitor this season. Some good results, some uninspiring ones. It's funny hearing their fans and others going on like they monopolize possession like Barcelona. They don't. They try much more to keep it on the floor and hoof it less, but that's equally down to Moyes leaving than it is Martinez being the new manager. Barry and McCarthy can be got at in the middle, no doubt about that and even more so if it's Osman just in front of them and not Barkley. I don't think Barkley will start - I fancy him to be sent off if he does as it'll be his first derby if I'm not mistaken and being a local lad he may get wrapped up in the emotional side of it and lose his head.

Of course we need to keep an eye on their left side, especially Baines. No silly free-kicks from wide or centrally that will give him a chance to shoot. I still get nervous when we have to defend a corner too and that'll be a key to any potential clean sheet. Defend the set plays well and we are a long way there to at least not conceding. Baines will push up a lot and overlap with Pienaar, I fancy Henderson to exploit that space well and we may create a chance or two there. Cissokho needs to be on point against Mirallas. He's direct and quick, and Aly will need to have his best game so far I feel.

It may come back to haunt me but I'm glad Phil Dowd is the ref. He's arguably the best in the league and he's used to the big games. It's at Goodison, the place where they celebrate winning a corner like they've just won the Champions League. We need to silence them early, either with a goal or failing that keeping hold of the ball to take the sting out of the game early. They will be foaming at the mouth with every decision and every tackle, but we know that already.

I'm nervous, I'm excited and I just want to fucking win. My head says we'll edge it, maybe 2-1, but I'd love nothing more than to absolutely hammer them.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 07:46:36 pm by SFiasco »

Offline GrkStav

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #140 on: November 21, 2013, 08:04:05 pm »
What would you say it is?



I cannot tell from that still image. Is that 442, then? If so, there you go, another piece of evidence in favor of the idea that 442, defensively, can be an effective formation for marking high up the pitch.
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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #141 on: November 21, 2013, 08:06:05 pm »
Any truth in the rumors floating around that Sturridge won't be fit?

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #142 on: November 21, 2013, 08:08:59 pm »
Any truth in the rumors floating around that Sturridge won't be fit?
No.

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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #143 on: November 21, 2013, 08:17:01 pm »
I cannot tell from that still image. Is that 442, then? If so, there you go, another piece of evidence in favor of the idea that 442, defensively, can be an effective formation for marking high up the pitch.

The point is that it's not important what formation you play. There are three facets of the game that individually or together drive the tactics of defence - the ball, the goal and the players. If you're driven to defend the player (which hardly anyone does anymore), then you will have a man-to-man marking pattern, and you will essentially match the other team's formation. If you are driven to defend the goal, then you will usually sit back and defend in two banks of four or a 4-3/4-5 set-up. If you are driven to defend at the ball (pressing), then it won't matter what formation you use, as the primary concern will be compression towards the ball. Formation really only matters if you defend man-to-man, or if you defend the goal by consolidation. In which case, any type of 3-man forward line is important because you will need to delay the opposition defenders on the ball while your midfield and defence drops into shape. With a ball-oriented pressing defence, the formation is not as important as the distances between the players, which means sacrificing with for compactness. The problem with this, though, is that you need players who are very good with the ball in tight spaces. Usually, though, a defensive strategy is a mixture of all three, in probably a 3:2:1 ratio.
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Online robertobaggio37

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #144 on: November 21, 2013, 08:20:35 pm »
The biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true.

Offline Juan Loco

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #145 on: November 21, 2013, 08:22:59 pm »
What would you say it is?



That's Clyne pushed up on Sakho though, isn't it?
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #146 on: November 21, 2013, 08:28:19 pm »
That's Clyne pushed up on Sakho though, isn't it?

Read my response to Grkstv above :)

Formations are neutral :D
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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #147 on: November 21, 2013, 08:28:29 pm »
The point is that it's not important what formation you play. There are three facets of the game that individually or together drive the tactics of defence - the ball, the goal and the players. If you're driven to defend the player (which hardly anyone does anymore), then you will have a man-to-man marking pattern, and you will essentially match the other team's formation. If you are driven to defend the goal, then you will usually sit back and defend in two banks of four or a 4-3/4-5 set-up. If you are driven to defend at the ball (pressing), then it won't matter what formation you use, as the primary concern will be compression towards the ball. Formation really only matters if you defend man-to-man, or if you defend the goal by consolidation. In which case, any type of 3-man forward line is important because you will need to delay the opposition defenders on the ball while your midfield and defence drops into shape. With a ball-oriented pressing defence, the formation is not as important as the distances between the players, which means sacrificing with for compactness. The problem with this, though, is that you need players who are very good with the ball in tight spaces. Usually, though, a defensive strategy is a mixture of all three, in probably a 3:2:1 ratio.

Taking all of that into consideration (and thank you for it), would you say that with personnel we've used vs other clubs and are likely to use vs Everton, especially the front two and the men on the nominal flanks, we are likely to be effective in high-pressing?
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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #148 on: November 21, 2013, 08:31:09 pm »
You're all spoiling the derby. Pack it in.
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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #149 on: November 21, 2013, 08:32:21 pm »
Taking all of that into consideration (and thank you for it), would you say that with personnel we've used vs other clubs and are likely to use vs Everton, especially the front two and the men on the nominal flanks, we are likely to be effective in high-pressing?

We don't press high. We're a zonal goal-oriented team when we defend. We get shape, we put pressure on the ball, but the line drops back into our half. We don't play compressed enough to be a pressing team.
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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #150 on: November 21, 2013, 08:35:03 pm »
Read my response to Grkstv above :)

Formations are neutral :D

Sorry mate, thought it was put there to guess what they were playing. Southampton I think are a good illustration of what a high-pressing team actually looks like compared to us.
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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #151 on: November 21, 2013, 08:40:29 pm »
Rodgers vs Martinez battle resumes. Bring it on blueshite



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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #152 on: November 21, 2013, 08:54:06 pm »
This is another (but even more so) of those weekends with loads of interesting games around us. I am slightly concerned about the condition of the key players, but this could go any way, as ever.
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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #153 on: November 21, 2013, 09:18:23 pm »
Sakho and Toure at centreback for me, can see Lukaku manhandling Skrtel and Agger.

By the way, why is Martinez saying he has no regrets about turning down Liverpool, since when was he offered the job?

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #154 on: November 21, 2013, 09:33:24 pm »
We don't press high. We're a zonal goal-oriented team when we defend. We get shape, we put pressure on the ball, but the line drops back into our half. We don't play compressed enough to be a pressing team.

I agree. My original post regarding the 442 and high-pressing was in response to another poster who argued that we should really attempt to high-press Everton.

And then BR says something like this:

"The idea is to dominate the ball, there's various ways to do that. Our game is very much based on the intensity of our pressure to get the ball back quick."
« Last Edit: November 21, 2013, 09:54:56 pm by GrkStav »
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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #155 on: November 21, 2013, 09:34:22 pm »
You're all spoiling the derby. Pack it in.

Sorry. Let's twat them!  :wave
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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #156 on: November 21, 2013, 10:11:09 pm »
I sort of wish someone could give me a sedative, then wake me up at 3 o'clock on Saturday and tell me we've won.

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #158 on: November 21, 2013, 10:36:12 pm »
Let's just twat 'em.

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Re: Everton v Liverpool Preview (November 23 2013, Goodison Park, 12.45)
« Reply #159 on: November 21, 2013, 10:43:14 pm »
Let's hope Martinez now brings a smidgeon of football to the table, after a tedious decade of Moyes's clogging, spoiling tactics.

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