Topic: RAWK Round Table. AFC 2-0 LFC

[Funky_Gibbons]

So it only takes an injury or two to be without pace in the side? Didn't affect Arsenal missing the likes of Walcott and Chamberlain.

You're right. In less than one year and two transfer windows that Rodgers and the transfer committee have been at the club they haven't yet built a squad as strong as what Wenger has in sixteen years at Arsenal. Disgraceful isn't it.

[DanA]

You're right. In less than one year and two transfer windows that Rodgers and the transfer committee have been at the club they haven't yet built a squad as strong as what Wenger has in sixteen years at Arsenal. Disgraceful isn't it.

I believe Rodgers has had three windows and more than a year.

But yes we don't have the depth and balance that Wenger has built in the Arsenal side over a long period of time. Quite how someone can complain about that has me a bit perplexed also. We have gone from 7th last season to sitting equal 2nd on points at the moment. But probably the most pleasing thing it's very obvious where we are going and how Rodgers will improve us.

[Eeyore]

I believe Rodgers has had three windows and more than a year.

But yes we don't have the depth and balance that Wenger has built in the Arsenal side over a long period of time. Quite how someone can complain about that has me a bit perplexed also. We have gone from 7th last season to sitting equal 2nd on points at the moment. But probably the most pleasing thing it's very obvious where we are going and how Rodgers will improve us.

To be honest whilst I think we have had a decent start this season I think it is far from clear where we are going. I think at the moment the better quality players in the side are dictating the way we play. We have a huge disparity between the best players in the squad and the worst and we tend to pick a formation to suit the better players we have at our disposal at any given moment.

At them moment it is fine and we are competitive but I think it is very hard to make a case for us having a clear roadmap of where we want to be and how we are going to achieve those goals. If you look at the formation and the way we set out to play between the Arsenal game this season and the one last season for me there is no clear vision or indication of the path that we are taking.

[TSC]

I believe Rodgers has had three windows and more than a year.

But yes we don't have the depth and balance that Wenger has built in the Arsenal side over a long period of time. Quite how someone can complain about that has me a bit perplexed also. We have gone from 7th last season to sitting equal 2nd on points at the moment. But probably the most pleasing thing it's very obvious where we are going and how Rodgers will improve us.

I would hold that until January.  We've a load of difficult games (after tomorrow) between now and then.  Let's see where we sit come Jan.  If we're still there or thereabouts then all will be good.  However if we fail miserably to pick up points in tough away fixtures we could quite easily find ourselves mid table by Jan.

[Homo rubrum]

I believe Rodgers has had three windows and more than a year.

He caveated it, "and the transfer committee." 




*A bit odd to imply such a lack of faith in Rodgers as an individual market force in defense of his squad acquisition thus far, but he was technically not wrong.   

[GrkStav]

I need to get this straight: All this criticism and doubting of the current LFC squad and its managerial staff are not in response to us having lost 2-0 to Arsenal (who then proceeded to beat BVB with the same starting XI and similar bench contributors), right?

The same doubts, the same critiques, existed after the WBA match but were not voiced on account of those holding them having thought it would have been 'bad form' to voice them after a victory, right?

[TSC]

I need to get this straight: All this criticism and doubting of the current LFC squad and its managerial staff are not in response to us having lost 2-0 to Arsenal (who then proceeded to beat BVB with the same starting XI and similar bench contributors), right?

The same doubts, the same critiques, existed after the WBA match but were not voiced on account of those holding them having thought it would have been 'bad form' to voice them after a victory, right?

Wrong.  I think most realise we've had a decent start to the season but we've more difficult fixtures coming up over the next 6 weeks or so than those we've had so far. 

[GrkStav]

Wrong.  I think most realise we've had a decent start to the season but we've more difficult fixtures coming up over the next 6 weeks or so than those we've had so far.

Right. Is that why this barrage of criticism and consternation coincides with Ls or Ds?

I am a big fan of critical analysis, even ruthless criticism, after a victory. Not so much after a defeat or a draw.

[woof]

Wrong.  I think most realise we've had a decent start to the season but we've more difficult fixtures coming up over the next 6 weeks or so than those we've had so far. 

And we've lost against 'lowly' teams we should have beat last season. Historical evidence tells us that it is rare for a team to finish 7th one season and become champions in the following one. We are still works in progress and what supporters need to ask is: are we heading in the right direction?

2-0 against the form team of the competition since the start of 2013 isn't necessarily the end of our good run. It's a measure of where we are now. In fact, if one looks at the first half performance, one could say we matched Arsenal in most departments. The goal from Santi was against run of play. Rodgers is going to learn and he'll adapt. Like now, when Coutinho is back, the question is: which formation is best?

[TSC]

Right. Is that why this barrage of criticism and consternation coincides with Ls or Ds?

I am a big fan of critical analysis, even ruthless criticism, after a victory. Not so much after a defeat or a draw.

To be fair there have been many comments re our 'easyish' start to the season.  While others got carried away with a few wins.  But over the next 5-6wks will show where we really are.  It's our toughest run of games.

And we've lost against 'lowly' teams we should have beat last season. Historical evidence tells us that it is rare for a team to finish 7th one season and become champions in the following one. We are still works in progress and what supporters need to ask is: are we heading in the right direction?

2-0 against the form team of the competition since the start of 2013 isn't necessarily the end of our good run. It's a measure of where we are now. In fact, if one looks at the first half performance, one could say we matched Arsenal in most departments. The goal from Santi was against run of play. Rodgers is going to learn and he'll adapt. Like now, when Coutinho is back, the question is: which formation is best?

Well I wouldn't class Arsenal as a 'lowly' team.  Beyond that we've lost to Southampton.  But anyway, the pointer will be more accurate post Xmas.

[GrkStav]

Well I wouldn't class Arsenal as a 'lowly' team.  Beyond that we've lost to Southampton.  But anyway, the pointer will be more accurate post Xmas.

"And we've lost against 'lowly' teams we should have beat last season." 

[oldrepublicknight]

I believe Rodgers has had three windows and more than a year.

But yes we don't have the depth and balance that Wenger has built in the Arsenal side over a long period of time. Quite how someone can complain about that has me a bit perplexed also. We have gone from 7th last season to sitting equal 2nd on points at the moment. But probably the most pleasing thing it's very obvious where we are going and how Rodgers will improve us.

what are people talking about? In the time Rodgers has been manager, Wenger has bought Cazorla, Podolski, Giroud, Monreal, Ozil and acquired Flamini on a free.

They have built their depth by getting it right on every first team transfer the last three windows. In that time, Rodgers success stories have been Sakho, Sturridge, Mignolet, Toure. Coutinho started out well, but he hasnt really delivered this season, Aspas, Alberto, Borini, Allen, Ilori, Assaidi represent almost 50M in investment, that is money that would have been better spent on one to three players of real pedigree.

People forget that a few years ago Arsenal had the same exact problem as this team did which was a great starting XI but little depth behind it. They have had some of the young players mature, but they have also invested in the right talent.

That team at the Emirates and Signal Iduna lacked Flamini, Wilshere, Chamberlain, Walcott, Podolski. Options they get come end of this month or start of next month.

[keyo]

There was me thinking both goals were great examples of excellent technique.

they were......but as with everything you look at what cold have been done differently.....the first goal, sakho comes out to challenge for the ball, while we are deep or retreating, creating a very stretched position, this is probably down to starting positions and how the move progressed, but defensively we were struggling after that....so could we have done things organisationally or individually that would hav improved that position and stopped it developing?  i think we could, but having got that far a cross came into the box and we had 2 players in there, skrtel marking space at the front post and toure following giroud, carzola therefore had a free run...so we could have done something better there although the stretching of the defence is what really caused the damage

the second goal was scored whilst we laboured chasing the ball and closing down possession, great strike but it bobbed up on his first touch, then he let it drop and then hit it whilst sakho and toure waited for him to hit it.....they may not have been able to get close enough to stop the shot but i reckon a more positive effort would have got to ramsey before his shot got away

in reality though i think arsenal showed greater penetration overall, and forced us backwards more than we forced them backwards, maybe we started too deep and enabled them to come on to us but i felt we either started too deep to damage them when in possession or our midfield dropped too deep when in possession - and when possession was conceded - resulting in suarez and sturridge being isolated....i still tend to think we have a problem when we conced first, our game works well when the opposition comes hunting and chasing us down as we can work possession around them and move into spaces behind their midfield....so conceding against arsenal was always going to prove challenging

they are ahead of us in developing a cohesive unit, their midfield has been at the club for a number of years and their pattern of play well established, we continue to be a work in progress and whilst we are competitive i think this game provided a good barometer in that we still have a way to go to build a cohesive unit that works well in possession and without the ball and can make the most of control and also spring quickly

[oldrepublicknight]

they were......but as with everything you look at what cold have been done differently.....the first goal, sakho comes out to challenge for the ball, while we are deep or retreating, creating a very stretched position, this is probably down to starting positions and how the move progressed, but defensively we were struggling after that....so could we have done things organisationally or individually that would hav improved that position and stopped it developing?  i think we could, but having got that far a cross came into the box and we had 2 players in there, skrtel marking space at the front post and toure following giroud, carzola therefore had a free run...so we could have done something better there although the stretching of the defence is what really caused the damage

the second goal was scored whilst we laboured chasing the ball and closing down possession, great strike but it bobbed up on his first touch, then he let it drop and then hit it whilst sakho and toure waited for him to hit it.....they may not have been able to get close enough to stop the shot but i reckon a more positive effort would have got to ramsey before his shot got away

in reality though i think arsenal showed greater penetration overall, and forced us backwards more than we forced them backwards, maybe we started too deep and enabled them to come on to us but i felt we either started too deep to damage them when in possession or our midfield dropped too deep when in possession - and when possession was conceded - resulting in suarez and sturridge being isolated....i still tend to think we have a problem when we conced first, our game works well when the opposition comes hunting and chasing us down as we can work possession around them and move into spaces behind their midfield....so conceding against arsenal was always going to prove challenging

they are ahead of us in developing a cohesive unit, their midfield has been at the club for a number of years and their pattern of play well established, we continue to be a work in progress and whilst we are competitive i think this game provided a good barometer in that we still have a way to go to build a cohesive unit that works well in possession and without the ball and can make the most of control and also spring quickly

Sakho did the right thing in stepping up and forcing Arteta to make the pass, otherwise he would have continued driving. Biggest mistaked for tha first goal were Cissokho and Gerrard. Cissokho didnt even contest the cross, and Gerrard was at a similar starting position with Cazorla when the entire sequence started unravelling.

For their secong goal, they loaded up on one side having Ozil wide, Rosicky wide, and Gerrard and Lucas were caught off position.......if they keep a better shape there is no space for Ramsey to run into.

[Halcyon Lissome]

Newcastle? Match winner? We drew - keep clutching at straws.

In your own definition: "MAtch winner = scoring the winning goal or being the primary catalyst for a fight back or victory."

Which clearly means the result doesn't necessarily have to be a win. You keep shifting those goalposts .

But thankfully you didn't dispute the other 2. So, you got your answer anyway.

If you play Sturridge as a more orthodox 9 and tell him to play on the shoulder of the last defender then they have to decide whether to allow the space in behind, to drop off and leave space between the lines for Gerrard or to drop deep and form a low block which allows us to pen them in and get Coutinho on the ball in the final third.

In the long run all three for me are more preferable than trying to hit teams from broken play before they get organised.

Actually, that's a good point Al. I too think Gerrard isn't best suited for that AM role but you're right in that Sturridge has the kind of pace to really push the defensive line back and give Gerrard more space between those lines. On those terms, it wouldn't be terrible to try it.

[Fromola]

I need to get this straight: All this criticism and doubting of the current LFC squad and its managerial staff are not in response to us having lost 2-0 to Arsenal (who then proceeded to beat BVB with the same starting XI and similar bench contributors), right?

The same doubts, the same critiques, existed after the WBA match but were not voiced on account of those holding them having thought it would have been 'bad form' to voice them after a victory, right?

The thing for me is the Arsenal game went exactly how i'd have expected to from watching both teams this season. It wasn't that we lost, it was the way we lost and that it was in keeping with the way both teams are playing. The Southampton game was also a reality check, as was the Newcastle game where we didn't turn up first half and then got a point against 10 men.

We have to go to Everton, City, Spurs and Chelsea soon. We need a few results from those games and we need to play better to get them. You can rely on Suarez and Sturridge to beat West Brom or Crystal Palace. Against the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea you need the team to play well.

[Eeyore]

what are people talking about? In the time Rodgers has been manager, Wenger has bought Cazorla, Podolski, Giroud, Monreal, Ozil and acquired Flamini on a free.

They have built their depth by getting it right on every first team transfer the last three windows. In that time, Rodgers success stories have been Sakho, Sturridge, Mignolet, Toure. Coutinho started out well, but he hasnt really delivered this season, Aspas, Alberto, Borini, Allen, Ilori, Assaidi represent almost 50M in investment, that is money that would have been better spent on one to three players of real pedigree.

People forget that a few years ago Arsenal had the same exact problem as this team did which was a great starting XI but little depth behind it. They have had some of the young players mature, but they have also invested in the right talent.

That team at the Emirates and Signal Iduna lacked Flamini, Wilshere, Chamberlain, Walcott, Podolski. Options they get come end of this month or start of next month.

I think you have to acknowledge though that Arsenal currently have much much draw for prospective players than we do. They are currently a couple of tiers above us in the pecking order and are far more likely to be able to attract proven players than we are. We are playing catch up and feeding on scraps at the moment.

A good illustration is us moving for Mkhitaryan and Costa two attacking players and ending up with Sakho a centre back. We end up signing whatever quality is left after the big boys have done their business. We end up tailoring the formation to suit our quality players whereas Wenger has the luxury of being able to recruit to suit the way he wants to play.

[keyo]

Sakho did the right thing in stepping up and forcing Arteta to make the pass, otherwise he would have continued driving. Biggest mistaked for tha first goal were Cissokho and Gerrard. Cissokho didnt even contest the cross, and Gerrard was at a similar starting position with Cazorla when the entire sequence started unravelling.

For their secong goal, they loaded up on one side having Ozil wide, Rosicky wide, and Gerrard and Lucas were caught off position.......if they keep a better shape there is no space for Ramsey to run into.

i was not placing blame for goals at any individual, rather trying to show that neither goal was defended well as a group or individuals

i think we could have done better, both individually and as a team....this may show that we had a couple of poor moments, or it could show arsenal's quality, or it could show that our set up needs more qork and is still a work in progress...i tend to think it is a mixture f the last 2, arsenal's quality and our need to continue to develop our effectivenes in all our system's against high quality teams....we have improved, and need to continue to improve to continue our form and as the season goes on

[DanA]

what are people talking about? In the time Rodgers has been manager, Wenger has bought Cazorla, Podolski, Giroud, Monreal, Ozil and acquired Flamini on a free.

They have built their depth by getting it right on every first team transfer the last three windows. In that time, Rodgers success stories have been Sakho, Sturridge, Mignolet, Toure. Coutinho started out well, but he hasnt really delivered this season, Aspas, Alberto, Borini, Allen, Ilori, Assaidi represent almost 50M in investment, that is money that would have been better spent on one to three players of real pedigree.

People forget that a few years ago Arsenal had the same exact problem as this team did which was a great starting XI but little depth behind it. They have had some of the young players mature, but they have also invested in the right talent.

That team at the Emirates and Signal Iduna lacked Flamini, Wilshere, Chamberlain, Walcott, Podolski. Options they get come end of this month or start of next month.

1. Arsenal's performance in the transfer market the last three windows isn't normal, it's a statistical anomaly even for them
2. Your comparing Rodgers to the manager with easily the best transfer record in the Premier League. I'd be happy if he goes close to Wengers career record, let alone the last three windows.
3. All of Arsenals injuries are in the one area that they have huge depth. Would you be crowing about their depth if it was Giroud or Koschelny out?

To be honest whilst I think we have had a decent start this season I think it is far from clear where we are going. I think at the moment the better quality players in the side are dictating the way we play. We have a huge disparity between the best players in the squad and the worst and we tend to pick a formation to suit the better players we have at our disposal at any given moment.

At them moment it is fine and we are competitive but I think it is very hard to make a case for us having a clear roadmap of where we want to be and how we are going to achieve those goals. If you look at the formation and the way we set out to play between the Arsenal game this season and the one last season for me there is no clear vision or indication of the path that we are taking.

I think we have a difference in opinion more on the definition of roadmap than anything else. Your absolute right we've changed our style and formation constantly under Rodgers but for me there doesn't need to be a consistent formation season on season for their to be a clear road map. Rodgers has made it clear he prefers 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1 as formations and while he's chopped and changed, what far more important for me is that we see consistent improvement in both results and the squad while Rodgers attains the squad capable of playing in his preferred method. We started 2012/13 threadbare in attack and finished the season as the most potent in the league......that's huge progress IMO. I thought we finished 2012/13 weak at CB but went into 2013/14 extremely strong in this area...again progress. It's now pretty apparent to me that our wing backs and midfield are letting us down and my feeling is Rodgers will earmark one or both of these areas for improvement in January.

Next season I suspect we'll see the 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 Rodgers wants but more important is that he's systematically built the squad capable of playing the way he wants to play.