Author Topic: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?  (Read 12569 times)

Offline GrkStav

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #80 on: October 19, 2014, 02:39:10 am »
Trend, mate, do you think you can contribute some general ideas regarding how "we get the most out of the players that are available"? Something to get or keep the conversation going relevant to the actual (now further clarified) topic of the thread?

Of course, that is not to detract from the substantive quality and eloquence of your contributions so far. Far from it.
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Offline MolbyLovesGravlax

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #81 on: October 19, 2014, 03:16:26 am »
To my uneducated eye we have done best under Rodgers when we have organically developed our style rather than when we first try and play how Rodgers originally envisions.
When he first took over we were trying to be a new version of Swansea which was a variation on the Barca style. It never really worked for us, but he adapted and, especially after we got Coutinho and Daniel, we became a much quicker more aggressive team, it was less about the measured approach of 'if you win the possession battle statistically you will most often win the match' to 'if we create more good goal scoring chances than they do we will walk away with 3 points more often than not.'
We adapted not just based on what the manager wanted or what the players best suited but also what actually was working.
Last season as well was a journey to find out how to get Suarez and Sturridge both playing as strikers and having Gerrard be able to play as much as possible. We ended up with the diamond and quick starts and Gerrard as the deep lying play maker and we came damn close to a title with a paper thin squad.
This season our best performance was Spurs, and that was easily the closest we have been to how we played at the end of last season.
In other words we have, for various reasons, one very obvious large toothed gap foremost amongst them, tried to change how we play, and that is why we haven't really found any sort of rhythm or form. Had we bought say Sanchez we could have probably tried to just be a lesser version of last year with a better overall squad, but as it stands we have to work on the training ground, and review matches and work out exactly what the next Rodgers era Liverpool is. He will get there, the important thing is for us to not be hopelessly adrift of the top 4 when it does kick in. We have ended both seasons under Rodgers strong, and I am guessing we will again.

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Offline GregCharrua

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #82 on: October 19, 2014, 03:27:44 am »
To my uneducated eye we have done best under Rodgers when we have organically developed our style rather than when we first try and play how Rodgers originally envisions.
When he first took over we were trying to be a new version of Swansea which was a variation on the Barca style. It never really worked for us, but he adapted and, especially after we got Coutinho and Daniel, we became a much quicker more aggressive team, it was less about the measured approach of 'if you win the possession battle statistically you will most often win the match' to 'if we create more good goal scoring chances than they do we will walk away with 3 points more often than not.'
We adapted not just based on what the manager wanted or what the players best suited but also what actually was working.
Last season as well was a journey to find out how to get Suarez and Sturridge both playing as strikers and having Gerrard be able to play as much as possible. We ended up with the diamond and quick starts and Gerrard as the deep lying play maker and we came damn close to a title with a paper thin squad.
This season our best performance was Spurs, and that was easily the closest we have been to how we played at the end of last season.
In other words we have, for various reasons, one very obvious large toothed gap foremost amongst them, tried to change how we play, and that is why we haven't really found any sort of rhythm or form. Had we bought say Sanchez we could have probably tried to just be a lesser version of last year with a better overall squad, but as it stands we have to work on the training ground, and review matches and work out exactly what the next Rodgers era Liverpool is. He will get there, the important thing is for us to not be hopelessly adrift of the top 4 when it does kick in. We have ended both seasons under Rodgers strong, and I am guessing we will again.


This puts into words how I've been feeling about this season, on every point. It will be very interesting to see how we are playing in a few months.

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #83 on: October 19, 2014, 03:30:06 am »
snip

This and the post quoted both: thanks.

Though I'm not a coach, I enjoyed PoPs posts quite a bit - especially the stuff about physiology and how professional coaches go about training - and the differences between them - it was like a look into the professional side of the game which is always interesting and enjoyable to learn about.

I'd love to get his input on what he thinks of this season and what he thinks some causes/effects might be including training, fitness, tactics, etc.!

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #84 on: October 19, 2014, 04:48:50 am »
Trend, mate, do you think you can contribute some general ideas regarding how "we get the most out of the players that are available"? Something to get or keep the conversation going relevant to the actual (now further clarified) topic of the thread?

Of course, that is not to detract from the substantive quality and eloquence of your contributions so far. Far from it.

I am a poor substitute to PoP, but I will stick my neck out there.  Three main points to bring up "to get the most out of our players".

Given that the QPR game is just hours away, and we are still missing crucial pieces of our playing template to injury (Dan, Dejan, Flanno) and we have players with mixed fitness programs coming back from injury, previous knocks or fatigue (Allen, Can, Markovic, Skrtel, Glen & Sterling), we should be very realistic at this point in the season.  High expectations are good and necessary, but can create unrealistic mentalities.

With disparate parts, players still trying to regain form/fitness, and new lineups, we might expect from the get-go for there to be some struggles with continuity, communication, and getting on the same page.  This leads to the first suggestion. 

Psychological Response - We need a mentality that ignores frustration
For perfectionists in football whose goal it is to press, dominate the ball, and to recognize/expose opportunities to circulate/penetrate the opposing team's final third, we set ourselves up for disappointment, especially as Greg/GrStv have pointed out that we were striker centric last year. 

The fact that we do not have someone to stretch the defense, thus creating space underneath for a Coutinho/Sterling is an issue which is exacerbated by the typical movements of Balotelli (coming towards the play rather than drawing players away from it and getting into the box).  Also, our combination play, cyclic runs by either one/two forward fronts has changed a great deal.  We have become much more reliant in our first few games on the flanks.  This has served us well when we press the ball and win it (as Moreno, Sterling and more recently Lallana) are finding dangerous spaces.   But, our lack of continuity in the final third is an issue.   We see this clearly, when we attempt hopeful service that is easily cleared or a cross with no runner or when we fail to really make defenders make choices. 

The latter is the most crucial in our system.  It has been relatively easy to play against us (recently) if you are a centreback.  The number of decisions has not really been stressful, in turn we less effective pressing or and creating opponent turnovers from the back.  In many ways against WBA, if not for our midfield Henderson/Gerrard, we would not have had the quality opportunities to score.  I am sure this is a problem Rodgers is currently working on.

Nevertheless, when you combine our personnel issues, with a lack of practice time working on combination play in the final third, and our team's nature to dominate the ball and opponents, and our history of fast starts/last year's goals, we have a recipe for disappointment and frustration when not scoring which runs through the entire stadium all the way to the ball boys.  We are still finding new ways to win games, and it is imperative that we overcome this frustration as an important part of this team's growth.  We do not want to learn this in some European capital in the eliminations stages of the Champions League.

For the players and supporters, we need to overcome this tendency of immediate gratification in scoring type of mentality.  While, it certainly would not hurt to score more,  the potential frustration from not scoring as much needs to be ignored and fought through without wasting time, energy or perspective.  This is a presumably temporary scenario (as RH cannot fuck up too much more in the following months I hope).  As such, this should be treated as a learning opportunity -----> i.e. how do we stay positive, keep working and create chances.   Some here might suggest this is what they are getting paid to do.  Fair enough, but the way BR wants to play, pressing, movement and circulating the ball all over the pitch to probe and exploit weaknesses takes a toll on the players.  And most invisibly, it takes a toll on their psyche.  Already very mentally strong players (the lot), the first thing that goes when a team gets tired is their communication, field of vision, and their ability to control emotions.   

*** We need to be sure to save our energy for the task at hand and worry about the outcomes later, especially during this period in our team's development - youth, injuries, form issues abound.  This is how to get the best out of players mentally.  Mistakes happen, move on and prevent them from growing into team errors.

Tactical Response - Set play desire

Teams have studied our tendencies and adjusted to us pretty well so far. In most games, our opponents have not been punished for sitting in and allowing us to circulate the balls on the periphery.  It is here that I must say that I definitely do not have a template for future Liverpool tactical success. 

However, what I have seen ratcheted up in our first few games is the importance of set plays to our future outcomes.  By scoring less, we put more pressure on other areas of the game to score.  And we seem to have periods where we turn off.   This could be due a whole variety of issues --- tuning out a singular voice, lack of training time, new roles/position within the defending restart zones, or this group of players has not yet developed a restart identity yet.   I tend to think it is all of the above.

As a result, another very important way to get the most tactically out of players is better execution on both sides of the restart battles.  It has been my experience that this is an "isomorphic" process where the actions of one can affect (parallel) the actions of another.  In other words, defending is contagious.  What happens to one part of the zone, affects others as well as player movements into them.  The culture of defending set plays is vitally important to avoiding mistakes, as it is so easy to tune out, or mirror a poor recovery decision.  It is a building blocks type of process.  There should be a mentality where they set goals.  The next 30 corners, we give up nothing.  Everyone is invested, knows their role, and knows their assignments/danger target.  IMO, this would get the best out of us.  Maybe, this is going on at present, and BR is working on individual/group video analysis to address these goals, but more attention needs to be paid.

On the other side of set plays, our offensive desire for the ball is fine, but we are either off on the service or fail to take our chances (besides Gerrard's brilliant Everton goal).  This may be a case of goals tending to occur in bunches last year, when confidence is high or a certain tactic is repeatedly exploited.  But we need to recapture some urgency in this area.  If there is one thing that could give this entire a lift is getting a couple restart finishes.  It leads to opening up the space in the run of play and serves as victory in the 1vs1 battles that occur in the game.  New patterns, runner combinations or mixing up service angles might do the trick for corners.  Skrtel to the near post might be a good idea, but could be overdone.  Getting Lallana more involved should be a priority as well.

Technical & Fitness response -  pace and decision-making

It seems to me that we have become too reliant upon Sterling and Henderson's work rate at times.  If we look back at what worked well against Tottenham, we pressed as a team effectively, not just a few players but movement in unison with an appetite for the ball.  In a few of our losses, we looked a step slow in reading the play, or pressing it late.  Even the first 40 minutes of Man City away, we could see our collective defensive growth until the Moreno error (team).  Defending in packs is what made us so effective in the initial stages of the counter last year, this is something we can replicate.  However, for a variety of reasons, we have not embraced this weapon as much as we could have in the first part of the season.  One excuse might be that this is a post-world cup year and fatigue/injuries increase.  However, this is an excuses and rectums narrative --- everyone has one.

As time has progressed over the early part of the season, there has been more pressure on certain players to work harder without ball than others.  Even though Henderson might appear immune, this type of mental wear and tear manifests itself in the decision-making of the player (see Stevie's G classic about Raheem going from Ricky Villa to Ricky Gervais).  This too is contagious.  Playing safe or the typical pass or trying to thread a pass that does not exist (Coutinho).  It is a long season, and the way we play is well suited for the players we have, no doubt.  However, one of the issues that gets the least amount of discussion (imo) is how fatigue is affecting our decision making with the ball as we penetrate into the final third. 

Now, Brendan has talked about personnel adaptations, get Balo into the box more, and circulating the ball quicker to exploit spaces, but as Allen, Can and Lallana get re-integrated into the squad, I would expect to see a more consistent team defensive pressure without the ball leading to much quicker more adept decisions when we get the ball, amplifying our pace and stealth.

Kick the shit of the Rangers tomorrow!   Avoid allowing restart goals, get on with finding flow in the offensive half (i.e. fight through frustration) and work together to create a more even team oriented work load
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 02:42:53 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Online goalrushatgoodison

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #85 on: October 19, 2014, 10:17:02 am »
This is a fantastic post. 

I like it for its honesty, challenge, and its well-measured tone.  To be honest, you make many good points about tactics, the usual supporter's experience, your personal experience watching LFC and how to create a culture of inclusiveness.   In the larger scheme, you are right, mate.   However, the title of this thread specifically uses tactics, and some of us are drawn to this and others not so much.

I do want to offer a few mild counterpoints, though. 

While I agree tactics (defined as changing the decisions to be made on the pitch by players) are not the whole enchilada, there is a culture of game analysis in the coaching profession.  Its called the "game within game".  Often we are tested, quizzed or challenged upon how (we) might make a change in a game that would benefit our side.  "What would you do with your U8 boys in this situation etc."

This predilection towards prediction or trying to know more can be and often is misguided, especially in public internet forums.  I will say though, that when we watch our gaffer make a change in the game or via substitution that stunningly works (i.e. Subbing off Manquillo and going to a five man midfield leading to Sterling's goal at West Ham or moving to three centrebacks at Goodison in his first year), this creates a passion to understand this 'game within the game' all the more ---- usual fan or coach.

The other counterpoint I might gently offer (as I agree with Shankly's quote there) is that we live in the age where information is a commodity unfortunately.  The right information at the right time often leads to an effective change in any line of work.  While I agree with you about significant change to footballing philosophies have occurred (in fact BR mentioned this in his presser this week ---- he used the term "cycles" through coaching milieus), there is a hidden message that has devilishly reared its head for supporters ----- "to show my loyalty to the club, I must know everything about it is about how they play."  This is hardly possible due to competence, access to practice and a specific knowledge player profiles etc...  So this becomes, in some cases, a journey toward jumping at windmills.

For me, this is where PoP was so good.  He was among the first here (Dougle has just stated something similar) that coaches at the top level tend to be practical with the resources they have.  There is little purity, more adaptation to some coveted principles.  He spent hours clarifying exercise physiology, training methods, set plays, myths about formations, and what makes each player special at this level.  For me, since I already have some of the language of football, this was so valuable.  I did not see it as him talking down, but rather him spending the time for me to uncover what it is that I do not know.  The next time I am in that situation, I thought to myself, I will remember this.  It was valuable.  Now, this may not mean as much to the casual fan, but we do need our translators.

There is little more upsetting than those who call for absurd changes to the squad based on one or two games, or those who consistently draw the wrong conclusions about obvious footballing issues (as stated by Brendan - not me).  This does not mean the casual fan need not participate.  On the contrary, they should.  But, there should be a standard in my opinion.  To echo another poster's idea here, this is what made the RAWK Round Table so interesting to read.  We need more casual fans posting in there, but there needs to be quality too.  Maybe this is too hierarchical and too much for some.  Granted.  However, I am convinced most here know what they like to read and don't.

Loosely translated, this means we should do more watching for enjoyment, trusting the gaffer to make decisions, and looking for trends that keeps us balanced (never get too high with a win and never too low with a defeat) while balancing this with the game inside the game. 

Truly outstanding post, mate!     

Thanks for the response Trend.

For the record, I never thought that I was been talked down to by POP. I felt that he was trying to educate me. In most instances he merely confirmed how much I already knew, just from playing the game at a (very) low level and watching the game  at the highest levels. I just didn't recognise the terminology that he and Brendan and others were using. I would expect that it's the same for a lot of ordinary guys who have never sat in a coaching course in their lives as the game is much simpler than Sky Sports like to make out. That's what I meant when I said that tactics mean different things to different people. In the same way that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, one can also get bogged down in the theory of a subject.

I would like to return to this Debate at some stage on a more suitable thread. I may have been guilty of taking your ball trend and running off in the wrong direction with regard to the topic of the thread. I may have a go later at answering Greg's question but it will be a layman's view alas.
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #86 on: October 19, 2014, 12:37:10 pm »
Thanks for the response Trend.

For the record, I never thought that I was been talked down to by POP. I felt that he was trying to educate me. In most instances he merely confirmed how much I already knew, just from playing the game at a (very) low level and watching the game  at the highest levels. I just didn't recognise the terminology that he and Brendan and others were using. I would expect that it's the same for a lot of ordinary guys who have never sat in a coaching course in their lives as the game is much simpler than Sky Sports like to make out. That's what I meant when I said that tactics mean different things to different people. In the same way that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, one can also get bogged down in the theory of a subject.

I would like to return to this Debate at some stage on a more suitable thread. I may have been guilty of taking your ball trend and running off in the wrong direction with regard to the topic of the thread. I may have a go later at answering Greg's question but it will be a layman's view alas.
An interesting diversion never the less, maybe the idea for a new thread on the topic is a good idea.
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Offline GregCharrua

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #87 on: October 19, 2014, 01:02:27 pm »
I am a poor substitute to PoP, but I will stick my neck out there.  Three main points to bring up "to get the most out of our players".

<snip>

Thanks for that Trend!

I don't feel like grabbing the numbers, but I know we had a god awful lot of set-piece goals last season. And they really shaped some big games - Arsenal at Anfield comes to mind.

I've read we're 'regressing to the mean' and our rate last season is unsustainable.

But yeah, a set piece goal can really turn a game on its ear and change things. Unfortunately, one has more fear of being on the wrong end of that chance this season at the moment!

I like your piece and I think it does a good job of expanding the discussion - this isn't just about Gerrard not having Sturrige and Suarez to ping a ball up to. It's a lot more than that, clearly!

Thanks a lot for taking the time for that post and sharing your thoughts.

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #88 on: October 19, 2014, 01:14:32 pm »
I think Rodgers has things right at the moment. It's going to take a few games but the move to 4-2-3-1 simplifies things and I think that's the right thing to do until Sturridge is back. As far as I am concerned we should be playing as many 8+ players that were in the team last season because they know each other an have a report.  There is no other option but to play Balotelli but I could never understand why Rodgers went with all of Lovren, Manquillo and Moreno when we had Sakho, Enrique and Johnson.

Up front Henderson/Gerrard as a no.10 adds a bit of running power. We might have more skilful players or more prolific but these two have a power and intent that I think we really need. We should be able to press a little more and hopefully we play sides that compliment that.
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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #89 on: October 19, 2014, 04:28:19 pm »
Looking at our mid-field from an angle of domination, what we have is an energetic mid-fielder in Henderson, an ageing mid-fielder in Gerrard who hasn't got the legs to dominate the mid-field but has got a wonderful range of passing, infact one of the best in the league tbf and then what we have is a wide range of players to choose from to fill in that remaining spot which changes from game to game according to our needs depending upon the opponent.

Henderson and Gerrard are to be and have been a constant presence in our mid-field and will continue to do so but what we really need is to get a command, a hold of the ball in mid-field which at times is just impossible to achieve and in that respect to improve the circumstances we do not ATM have the personnel to do it. Can needs game time to adjust and develop, Lucas hasn't been at his best since the injury and is finding it hard to find some game time, Allen has only just come back and I for one have my utmost faith in Allen being that guy for us if he is able to be at his best, he was bought by Brendan for the sole reason of breaking up play and starting attacks and he is quick enough to get in good positions too but most of the time he will be asked to sit deep and break play with clever movement that is what we can expect from him in the coming games but apart from that what we need is cohesion and efficiency and play-making skills, a David Silva-esque player and the options are Lallana and Coutinho which are not bad at all to be honest, Lallana's inter-play is second to none in my opinion but what he needs is a good chemistry from the forward line and at the moment Balotelli isn't the man for that job currently.

Balotelli in his entire career so far isn't known for his inter-play as much as he is known for his hold-up play and I think our system isn't doing him any favors in that regard ATM, he is a guy who likes to win balls and bring others into play but he isn't the guy who runs with it playing clever one-two's in the way and making chances at least for most part of the game that's what he looks to do, hold-it up and get other into the act and then get into the box.

But what's missing here is the absence of Sturridge, who is exactly the guy that is favored by our system and who in turn helps guys like Balotelli and that is why he is struggling alone upfront. If we are to see the best of Balotelli then we have to see him together with Sturridge.
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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #90 on: October 19, 2014, 06:05:46 pm »
I think Rodgers has things right at the moment. It's going to take a few games but the move to 4-2-3-1 simplifies things and I think that's the right thing to do until Sturridge is back. As far as I am concerned we should be playing as many 8+ players that were in the team last season because they know each other an have a report.  There is no other option but to play Balotelli but I could never understand why Rodgers went with all of Lovren, Manquillo and Moreno when we had Sakho, Enrique and Johnson.

Up front Henderson/Gerrard as a no.10 adds a bit of running power. We might have more skilful players or more prolific but these two have a power and intent that I think we really need. We should be able to press a little more and hopefully we play sides that compliment that.

Have you had occasion to reevaluate those assessments in light of the performance vs Stoke City [what is my problem?] Queens Park Rangers (notwithstanding the result, of course)?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 07:23:44 am by GrkStav »
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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #91 on: October 20, 2014, 03:02:27 am »
Have you had occasion to reevaluate those assessments in light of the performance vs Stoke City (notwithstanding the result, of course)?

Why Stoke City?
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #92 on: October 20, 2014, 07:25:15 am »
Why Stoke City?

Because I had just finished watching the Swansea - Stoke City game, and I had woken up at 5 am, after having gone to sleep at 1 am. That's my story and I am sticking to it. Edited by the way (ffs)!!!  :wave :-[
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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #93 on: October 20, 2014, 02:41:18 pm »
Because I had just finished watching the Swansea - Stoke City game, and I had woken up at 5 am, after having gone to sleep at 1 am. That's my story and I am sticking to it. Edited by the way (ffs)!!!  :wave :-[


Apologies... I was trying to get my head around LFC's last match with Stoke...
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #94 on: October 21, 2014, 08:42:48 am »
Apologies... I was trying to get my head around LFC's last match with Stoke...

No apology needed. I effed up and you graciously attempted to clarify.

Now, can we get the benefit of your possible re-assessment after the match vs QPR?  :wave
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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #95 on: October 21, 2014, 12:02:41 pm »
The guy makes a valid point that is worth debate yet he's being shot down. It's not like he's criticising Rodgers, but currently it's not working without Sturridge up there so something needs doing. He didn't say he doesn't trust BR to get it right, he's merely asking what should be done. Fuck it fuck this forum off because BR is manager and that's the end of that.
How deeply weird.

Anyway - amazing the difference a topic's title being changed can make.

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #96 on: October 21, 2014, 12:58:33 pm »
No apology needed. I effed up and you graciously attempted to clarify.

Now, can we get the benefit of your possible re-assessment after the match vs QPR?  :wave


QPR feels like a game you can't even talk about. It was past being a poor game, the entire team suffering under some odd malaise... isn't it such an outlier that it's value is a little less in discussion/analysis?

But I will say after watching that game that the 'getting the most out of Mario' question is to me at least 75% simply a question of Mario having more time to work with his teammates in training. Unfortunately for him (and us), there doesn't seem to have been any instant-understanding between him and the rest of the squad, though he did look promising next to Sturridge.

I'm not an athlete, but I wonder if some players just take longer to be absorbed into the team-mind. I mentioned it in the round table: that pass after Sterling cut inside (i think around 36min but my notes are on another computer), but Mario had just planted his feet and the ball rolled harmlessly to the keeper - if he was on the same page as Raheem there, that was a beautiful goal for him - but he had stopped to hold up his marker, expecting something else. He raised his arms at Sterling's bollocksing afterwards, as if saying "how was i supposed to know you were going to do that?" Well, that's exactly what he needs to know, to have a feeling for, especially in a team with our style of attacking play.

The midfield was an experiment, but Can looked very shaky and I wouldn't be ready to play him as the 1 in a 1-2 just yet. Too much responsibility. I would feel okay with him partnering Henderson in front of Gerrard. I think Hendo/Allen or Hendo/Can is a very good midfield pairing in front of Gerrard - and probably in the future Rodgers is thinking that's his 2 in a 2-1 with Lallana, Sterling or Coutinho in the #10 role.

I like Lucas and think he is solid in front of defense as the 1 - but it seems pretty clear that Rodgers doesn't want to play that way. Swansea had the two controllers (Britton-Allen), we only moved to a DM when it was Gerrard and only because of what it offered in attack. Rodgers seems to see that role as a waste of a player if he's purely defensive. He's clearly a coach who loves attack and is willing to have an exposed defense if it means letting loose his attack. I mean, that's the story of the second half of last season.

I don't know that I agree so much about all the furor with 'we need a defense coach' and 'we need a better defense' or whatever. We have good individual players, and our system is okay - when the attack is firing. Once it took off for Rodgers last season, we saw how exciting the game was to watch and how many wins came pouring in. I don't know, I just wonder if Rodgers would ever look at our season and be like "ok we need to drill defense for the week" or that our problem lies there. I think he's more likely thinking "how do we get the attack on pace again, which will give the defense more room to breathe and let us control the game"...

Thoughts on a Tuesday morning.

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #97 on: October 21, 2014, 04:11:28 pm »
No apology needed. I effed up and you graciously attempted to clarify.

Now, can we get the benefit of your possible re-assessment after the match vs QPR?  :wave

GrkStv

Main Points from Previous Post

1.  Accept Frustration & Respond Resiliently
          A. Attack (cycling of forward play/decision-making in final third/how to stretch the defense)
          B. Middle of Park (More pressing as a result of not dominating the ball, can lead to fouls/injuries/bad habits like diving in)
          C. Identity (roles/continuity/responding to danger ----> Pressure, Cover and Balance issues lead to disorganization/errors)

2.  The Importance of Set Plays in LFC's Results
         
3.  Solving the Over-dependence upon a few
 

Post Game QPR Re-Assessment   
Main Points from QPR Game

1.  Pressing Liverpool's Backs (cut off supply to SG; created knock downs, a direct game - main beneficiary Fer)

2.  Mario Balotelli's Problems & the rest of the LFC Attack (beyond not on the same page; different libraries)
            A. Decision-making in the final third (combination play, vision, and mobility in small spaces)
            B. Holding up the ball in the middle third (keeping it, allowing our midfield to avoid getting pinned in)
            C. Checking into space and making himself available at or near the box (make the CB's make decisions)
            D. Finishing & Selfishness

3.  Mignolet has some work to do - "Should I stay or should go" and Communication issues
            A.  Great shot stopping save on Sandro
            B.  Gets caught in No Man's Land & Punches Skrtel in the Head (his reading of the game needs to be faster/if he moving so slowly)

4.  Rodgers knows how to change games
            A.  Moved Gerrard back to normal position
            B.  Allen improved the game - we got closer to the opposition/better at pressing/keeping the ball
            C.  Coutinho provided a jump (space on the left; composure - combination play got better - nice finish, even better pass to RS)

5.  The Good, The Bad & The Ugly: Set Plays were a huge factor
             A.  Raheem plays quickly, Glen makes the run (well out son!)
             B.  Both goals allowed came from restarts (1st goal evolved from one and 2nd goal directly from corner)
                           a) Issue #1: Poor clearances, technique, Poor Marking
                           b) Issue #2: Ball-Watching (Enrique dives in, Ball Watches & Fails to Cover Vargas)
                           c)  Issue #3: No Calming Influence (Austin almost gets one Skrtel/Migs, Allen on near post) - Need confidence
                           d) Issue #4 : Indecision is contagious

*** It must be noted that when we did defend the last restart, Lovren headed it up and out, Coutinho collected it and we were off to the races on the counter.  It was not like QPR were running much at at us, other than we were to static, unaware of runners, combined with shitty clearances and no one person to step up and say "Not Today Sunshine".  Very disappointed with our defensive restarts.

6.  QPR confirmed that Sterling is indispensable for Liverpool (all three goals) - like Henderson the weeks before.

What we have learned and how to get the most out of our players

1. Our left side (not including Moreno) is vulnerable.  Enrique is not good enough yet, and Lovren is trying to do too much.  This leaves both Skrtel and Mignolet in the uncomfortable positions of having to read when to step and when to go.  Their natures are mostly to stay unless they really have to go.  This is not a great triangular partnership yet.

2. Liverpool FC need more repetition in some fundamental organizational and defensive patterns of play.  Too many awkward, half clearances leading to recycled service, too many episodes of leaving the back door open with ball watching, not following runners, and timid indecision about who is going to pressure, who is going to provide cover and who is going to balance the defense.  They need a set play practice game where there is no running, but the entire practice probes these problems.  With repetition comes confidence and a calmness.  This would be good for Migs too

3.  Using attacking pattern play, find more ways to put Coutinho in space.  This should be a tactical imperative.  Combine Mario in this session, where all Balo needs to do is read Coutinho, the playmaker.  This will guide his movement.  Stop the play, makes changes.  Start the play, ask him where his next move is.  Foster and partnership between the two
 
4.  Incentivize overcoming frustration, in practice.  Reward players and nurture more resilience.  It is a living, breathing entity with the team and make everyone apart of its upkeep.  There is more frustration just around the corner. 

Cheers
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 08:26:49 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Offline vicgill

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #98 on: October 21, 2014, 04:38:08 pm »
An interesting diversion never the less, maybe the idea for a new thread on the topic is a good idea.

aah so that's why we were moved Albie  ;D
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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #99 on: October 21, 2014, 06:05:49 pm »
I am willing to be convinced re Allen, especially since I actually think very highly of him as a footballer:

So, could the folks stating that his presence improved us after he came in for Can, please be more specific? I am not one to not notice the quiet but effective work of midfielders, quite the opposite.

I've watched the game twice (in retrospect, as always, the first time is entirely for the birds when it comes to analysis). Other than being fresher (obviously) than Can, I didn't see Allen do anything that could be characterized as positive. In fact, he barely got involved.

I have similar issues regarding Coutinho. Before he scored (with a LOT of luck involved) he had contributed the square root of eff all in attack and was a liability defensively.
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Offline wemmick

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #100 on: October 21, 2014, 06:19:40 pm »
To my uneducated eye we have done best under Rodgers when we have organically developed our style rather than when we first try and play how Rodgers originally envisions.
When he first took over we were trying to be a new version of Swansea which was a variation on the Barca style. It never really worked for us, but he adapted and, especially after we got Coutinho and Daniel, we became a much quicker more aggressive team, it was less about the measured approach of 'if you win the possession battle statistically you will most often win the match' to 'if we create more good goal scoring chances than they do we will walk away with 3 points more often than not.'
We adapted not just based on what the manager wanted or what the players best suited but also what actually was working.
Last season as well was a journey to find out how to get Suarez and Sturridge both playing as strikers and having Gerrard be able to play as much as possible. We ended up with the diamond and quick starts and Gerrard as the deep lying play maker and we came damn close to a title with a paper thin squad.
This season our best performance was Spurs, and that was easily the closest we have been to how we played at the end of last season.
In other words we have, for various reasons, one very obvious large toothed gap foremost amongst them, tried to change how we play, and that is why we haven't really found any sort of rhythm or form. Had we bought say Sanchez we could have probably tried to just be a lesser version of last year with a better overall squad, but as it stands we have to work on the training ground, and review matches and work out exactly what the next Rodgers era Liverpool is. He will get there, the important thing is for us to not be hopelessly adrift of the top 4 when it does kick in. We have ended both seasons under Rodgers strong, and I am guessing we will again.

Nice post, mate. 100% agree. The general World Cup hangover may help us a lot with respect to staying in or around 4th until after the New Year.  Every game we see glimpses of what we might become in the second half of the season. It's all there, just not consistently yet.

Offline karl740

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #101 on: October 21, 2014, 06:20:02 pm »
Balotelli hasn't got it in him to be an effective sole striker IMO. I have faith he will come good but I don't think we will see the best of him until we see him sturridge. I would also like to see Henderson bursting up the pitch. He seems a but more withdrawn this year. Rodgers has tinkered with a few things this year and he hasn't got us firing quite yet but I'm sure he will. He needs to sort us out aerially at the back though. Long balls and set pieces are a nightmare to watch.

Offline cowtownred

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #102 on: October 21, 2014, 07:51:20 pm »
I am willing to be convinced re Allen, especially since I actually think very highly of him as a footballer:

So, could the folks stating that his presence improved us after he came in for Can, please be more specific? I am not one to not notice the quiet but effective work of midfielders, quite the opposite.

I've watched the game twice (in retrospect, as always, the first time is entirely for the birds when it comes to analysis). Other than being fresher (obviously) than Can, I didn't see Allen do anything that could be characterized as positive. In fact, he barely got involved.

I have similar issues regarding Coutinho. Before he scored (with a LOT of luck involved) he had contributed the square root of eff all in attack and was a liability defensively.

I think you are one of the most astute posters on the site, especially in considering tactics and so on... a knowledge way beyond mine.

What I thought that was the difference between Can/Allen;  the latter initially did little on the ball, but was far more lively in getting among their midfield (who controlled the first 45), and stopped them playing. Was this pressing or pressure? I don't know the term, but when Allen got involved he first gave us the opportunity to play higher up the pitch.  Secondly, and I don't know the reason (familiarity?), when Allen started, Henderson got better. Thus we disrupted their previously dominant midfield, and then got more advanced.  And also the passing definitely improved throughout our front 5/6 when Allen and Coutinho got involved.

I must take issue with your critique of Coutinho.

I can see what you mean that he gave away the ball occasionally, but no more so than anyone of our players on the day.  But he was instrumental in our last 2 goals. You are being very unfair to say that his own goal (our 2nd) was lucky. That shot was going all the way whether it took a deflection or not, in my opinion. And not too many of our team could have made the space in the first place.  As for the winner, the pass he made for Sterling was genius...  reminiscent of those super passes last season that he, Gerrard and Sterling/Suarez made.  Perfection. Again, the angle and the weight of pass were something no-one else (I'd argue) on our team can do.

So Coutinho in my view was hugely important in the game.

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #103 on: October 21, 2014, 08:23:08 pm »
I am willing to be convinced re Allen, especially since I actually think very highly of him as a footballer:

So, could the folks stating that his presence improved us after he came in for Can, please be more specific? I am not one to not notice the quiet but effective work of midfielders, quite the opposite.

I've watched the game twice (in retrospect, as always, the first time is entirely for the birds when it comes to analysis). Other than being fresher (obviously) than Can, I didn't see Allen do anything that could be characterized as positive. In fact, he barely got involved.

I have similar issues regarding Coutinho. Before he scored (with a LOT of luck involved) he had contributed the square root of eff all in attack and was a liability defensively.

Coutinho has been the person most hurt by Suarez's absence.  When we were at our best last year, Phillipe had time, space to find the counter or the right play.  And in terms of his defense, there are some games where we might rely upon a disciplined work rate/tracking back, but we must not lose sight that Coutinho is in our side as a playmaker. 

When PC gets in tight space in the final third, sometimes he will become predictable or try to sneak cleverness into places it need not go.
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Offline Penfold78

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #104 on: October 22, 2014, 09:11:09 pm »
 One way of getting the best out the people available, in any context, is to nurture and reward a team based approach.


« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 09:20:09 pm by Mummy Spartacus (Mrs) »

Offline indlfc

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #105 on: October 22, 2014, 09:36:56 pm »
Drop Balotelli, play some one who wants to work for the team than himself.
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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #106 on: October 22, 2014, 11:43:40 pm »
Balotelli has to go on the bench,and we play Sterling central forward...Lallana and Coutinho on the sides...

Lucas has to come back in the team...but I sincerely doubt he's in a good shape physically...otherwise I would try more often Emre Can. Joe Allen shouldn't be a starter IMO, never.

Markovic has to sit for some(long) time on the bench, he's arguably incapable of doing nothing positive on a football pitch at the moment...he misses everything he tries.

In defense I think we should point at Sakho's return and must play him more often. Sakho has played some bad games with us to be honest and I was never feeling secure when he had the ball in his feet, but I have to admit he's got the abilities to be a fantastic player for us,there's no reason why he has always played at a very high level with both PSG and especially with his national team. Lovren has been a HUGE,hige disappointment,the biggest for me. I didn't know Markovic so couldn't judge him.. I was happy we bought Balotelli but he isn't performing...I knew unfortunately Lambert wouldn't and couldn't play a central part... but I was convinced Lovren was a fantastic buy, but I might be actually wrong. Skrtel and Moreno are the only ones there in defense,with Sakho IMO that must be playing week in week out...Lovren has to be benched and must find his way through. He has shown with Lyon and Southampton what he's capable of, but he's showing very bad displays from the start of the season. He's a good lad and did everything to join LFC but I think when Sakho comes back he can be benched without a problem. We'll see than later on how things evolve.


I have a question:

SUSO???

I think he deserves more chances than a certain Markovic,it doesn't make any sense we never give this lad an opportunity.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 11:45:34 pm by arab88 »

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #107 on: October 22, 2014, 11:50:52 pm »
Markovic has to sit for some(long) time on the bench, he's arguably incapable of doing nothing positive on a football pitch at the moment...he misses everything he tries.

Yeah, not giving any playing time to a 20-year-old who is new to this country and league is an ingenius way of helping him to adjust and improve. 


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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #108 on: October 22, 2014, 11:52:12 pm »
Yeah, not giving any playing time to a 20-year-old who is new to this country and league is an ingenius way of helping him to adjust and improve.

This is time for us to get points, some crucial matches are coming soon...Markovic isn't ready at the moment, easy as that.

Offline Djimi Smicer34

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #109 on: October 22, 2014, 11:56:54 pm »
This is time for us to get points, some crucial matches are coming soon...Markovic isn't ready at the moment, easy as that.

So when will he be ready?  Leaving him out completely is the worst thing we could do, the boy needs minutes on the pitch so that he can adapt to the team and league that he is new to. 

He needs game time, its as simple as that and he has the talent to help us get points. 

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #110 on: October 23, 2014, 12:09:46 am »
So when will he be ready?  Leaving him out completely is the worst thing we could do, the boy needs minutes on the pitch so that he can adapt to the team and league that he is new to. 

He needs game time, its as simple as that and he has the talent to help us get points.

Look at Lallana,or even Moreno,they are not playing fantastically but you can see they can improve straight away and make a straight impact!!

even Balotelli has done more than Markovic on the pitch! seriously...at least,he's scored a goal...and if we think about it,what an important goal that was!!!

I'm not saying we should drop him for good..far from that...I just think it would be preferable to integrate him in a team that is already working well, a more "settled team" that rotates and plays good football..not in our actual context.

in this context ,we could actually harm him even more if we play him,he hasn't been able to do nothing positive yet and could loose even more confidence...




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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #111 on: October 23, 2014, 12:36:24 am »
Play our best players in their best positions and have our management implement meritocracy as the rule of order!
eg.
              Mignolet
Manquillo  Lovren Sakho  Moreno
              Lucas
  Lallana         Henderson
            Coutinho
   Sterling      Sturridge

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Offline GregCharrua

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #112 on: October 23, 2014, 01:31:06 am »
Play our best players in their best positions and have our management implement meritocracy as the rule of order!
eg.
              Mignolet
Manquillo  Lovren Sakho  Moreno
              Lucas
  Lallana         Henderson
            Coutinho
   Sterling      Sturridge


Why do Gerrard and Allen deserved to be dropped? Also forcing an injured Sturridge who has missed essentially the entire season to start may not be the best idea!

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #113 on: October 23, 2014, 01:38:10 am »
Sell them off for parts?

Offline scumbagcollege

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #114 on: October 23, 2014, 11:12:19 am »

Why do Gerrard and Allen deserved to be dropped? Also forcing an injured Sturridge who has missed essentially the entire season to start may not be the best idea!
It obviously isnt working out this season.
If Lucas and Coutino play where does Gerrard play? (Suppose we could try him at CB instead of Lovren). Lucas is a better DM and Coutino is in form and a better AM at the moment, imo.
Allen would be in a more defensive midfield for me but lets not forget it is a squad game, so the other players would get on too.
Sturridge would walk into the team as soon as he is fit mate.
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Offline DanA

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #115 on: October 25, 2014, 02:30:48 pm »
I don't think it's as bad as the some supporters/the press make out. We've got some problems which are undeniable but some of our signings and players are in quite decent form I reckon. It's really our strikers (Lambert and Ballotelli) that long term look to be an issue and in that regard Sturridge can't return fast enough. Perhaps Balotelli can find so form with a proper striker partner but to date it's not looked encouraging. If Sturridge can get fit and in form then things look encouraging as Sterling and Henderson have started well while, Allen, Coutinho, Lallana and Gerrard have all improved week by week.

I also think the defense will sort itself out.  Lovren has been shaky but i'm  hopeful he'll work out. Moreno and Manquillo look worthy signings and with a bit of time together I'm hopeful they will sort themselves out. It's really the set piece record that looked concerning of late and you'd think that has to sort itself out, it's more organization than anything else.

I'm preying Balotelli finds form as a partner to Sturridge because he's been average as a lone striker. Still I really think Lovren, Moreno, Lallana and Can will  prove good signings in the long term and Markovic as a 20y/o has plenty of time to come good too. Of the team it's really Balotelli and Mignolet I've not got confidence looking at the long term. 

Reckon we'll finish third and hopefully be in a position to kick on next season.
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Offline GregCharrua

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #116 on: November 1, 2014, 04:41:28 pm »
Are the players failing to execute Rodgers tactical plan? Or is the tactical plan one that doesn't work with the players on hand?

Disappointed to see us persist with 4231 - or the bastardized, lopsided, 3-at-the-back hybrid we tried today. I don't know what we're trying to do - to be cautious, to play it out slowly and probe for weaknesses, waiting for space to open and attack vertically with a gerrard long ball - whatever we're trying to do we aren't doing it.

Here's some dreary reading for you. If you had the sensation watching us lately that the ball can't leave the back four, you'd be right.

Touches:
121 Lovren
109 Skrtel
85 Johnson
79 Gerrard
70 Henderson
60 Moreno
60 Allen
--------
Coutinho 43
Mignolet 40
Sterling 36
Balotelli 31
Borini 11
Lambert 0


I don't have the numbers/stats on it, but I'd wager 50% of Gerrad, Henderson, and Allen touches resulted in a pass back to Skrtel, Lovren or Johnson.

You can't even talk about Coutinho, Balotelli, or Sterling today. The midfield was flat, immobile and not moving to find space. I don't know if our back four have instructions to be uber-cautious, but they'll site on the ball while seconds tick by, only to shuffle it a few yards to the left.

How many times was I watching today, to see 5 liverpool players just behind the circle, all nearly within touching distance, static while they slowly moved it around to each other building up to a loss of possession?

Balotelli was coming way deep just to get involved. If Suarez were on the pitch today he would have been just as frustrated and have been tracking back even deeper to try to make something happen today.

There are major, major, major problems in defense and midfield separately, but its this schizophrenic relationship between them that's the most disturbing.

Perhaps more concerning is that this post, with some names changed, could probably have been written at the same stage of the season two years ago when we struggled to 7th, and Rodgers philosophy was being implemented.

We looked just as flat and turgid and slow and precarious and fearful in those games, and it didn't change until Coutinho and Sturridge started counter-attacking and our style of play changed. Last year, we started cautious again and squeezed out some wins that could have been losses which had us on a good foot after the start of the season - but again, it wasn't until the counter-attacking SAS diamond was used that the team started to generate results and excitement and a 2nd place finish.

Now we look to stubbornly return to the philosophy, which for whatever reason, Rodgers hasn't been able to instill. Because he must be trying to - we aren't counter attacking, we aren't playing any sort of patterns as the runs of quality our squad has seen under him (counter attacking, fast pace).

It is impossible to have a discussion without asking about Rodgers - what kind of football is he trying to get us to play this season? It's hard to tell. Is that the players fault? The staff's fault? No one expected to come out of the gates like we finished the season last year. But I didn't expect this.

The team feels lost: no identity in how we play, and a mish-mash of players that don't all seem suited to the same style of play.

/rant