Author Topic: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?  (Read 12541 times)

Offline Durlmints

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2014, 04:36:52 pm »
You don't think you know more than , your doctor, surgeon, barrister, accountant, car mechanic, etc,  all experts in their field,  so why do people think being a Football Manager is something anyone can do ?

Correct, Rodgers is infallible.

I've never ever ever talked about his tactics on here because I have no desire to ever be a football manager, however your analogy is so damn horrible I can't help but respond.

Lots on here called signings correctly when our scouts clearly did not. So therefore they knew better than the scouts? The highly qualified scouts that got it wrong can't have got it wrong because they are highly qualified?

The majority of the world knew Carroll wouldn't work out here, but yet our highly qualified expert genuineness at the club made him our most expensive player in the clubs history.

But of course, they are highly qualified, so what do we know, right?

Rodgers is brilliant but to pretend that no 'RAWK criticism' is valid simply because it is on RAWK is a little short sighted I feel.
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2014, 04:39:48 pm »
Correct, Rodgers is infallible.

I've never ever ever talked about his tactics on here because I have no desire to ever be a football manager, however your analogy is so damn horrible I can't help but respond.

Lots on here called signings correctly when our scouts clearly did not. So therefore they knew better than the scouts? The highly qualified scouts that got it wrong can't have got it wrong because they are highly qualified?

The majority of the world knew Carroll wouldn't work out here, but yet our highly qualified expert genuineness at the club made him our most expensive player in the clubs history.

But of course, they are highly qualified, so what do we know, right?

Rodgers is brilliant but to pretend that no 'RAWK criticism' is valid simply because it is on RAWK is a little short sighted I feel.

I don't even think the OP was criticising anything... sounded merely like a question... e.g. "what would you do"... ffs

I think the disappearance of the old ass thread from the main board has a few people throwing their toys out of the pram

Fwiw, the OP is perfectly fine and, in fact, actually a good way of prompting a valuable, football related conversation about our club here :)

Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2014, 04:44:02 pm »
Correct, Rodgers is infallible.

I've never ever ever talked about his tactics on here because I have no desire to ever be a football manager, however your analogy is so damn horrible I can't help but respond.

Lots on here called signings correctly when our scouts clearly did not. So therefore they knew better than the scouts? The highly qualified scouts that got it wrong can't have got it wrong because they are highly qualified?

The majority of the world knew Carroll wouldn't work out here, but yet our highly qualified expert genuineness at the club made him our most expensive player in the clubs history.


But of course, they are highly qualified, so what do we know, right?

Rodgers is brilliant but to pretend that no 'RAWK criticism' is valid simply because it is on RAWK is a little short sighted I feel.

see wrong its hindsight experts who get it right all the time, many wanted Andy after all he took us apart  for Newcastle, some were stunned about the price but not the lads potential, of course most wont admit that now.

Also  i could counter with most would have had, Lucas out years ago, most wanted Henderson out, of course that wasn't the case only a multi posting few in reality but it makes a bloody good generalisation and sound bite.

By the way criticise after the event is ok, like well i think he got that wrong, but to actually think you know better than him about his job is delusional at best.
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Offline Redman0151

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2014, 04:45:56 pm »
see wrong its hindsight experts who get it right all the time, many wanted Andy after all he took us apart  for Newcastle, some were stunned about the price but not the lads potential, of course most wont admit that now.

Also  i could counter with most would have had, Lucas out years ago, most wanted Henderson out, of course that wasn't the case only a multi posting few in reality but it makes a bloody good generalisation and sound bite.

By the way criticise after the event is ok, like well i think he got that wrong, but to actually think you know better than him about his job is delusional at best.



Who has said that?

OP made a pretty reasonable post and admitted he doesn't have a deep knowledge of tactical decisions, and wanted to know peoples thoughts. Then the thread just got filled with utter shit by people trying to shoot down any discussion.
"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012

Offline Durlmints

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2014, 05:02:14 pm »
see wrong its hindsight experts who get it right all the time, many wanted Andy after all he took us apart  for Newcastle, some were stunned about the price but not the lads potential, of course most wont admit that now.

Just on this issue, I remember February 3rd or 4th 2011, I was in work a few days after the signing. I worked at the time with a Manc who was at it from the moment I got in to the office. I agreed with him basically all day, and I think I was more angry at Liverpool football club that day than a die hard Manc who doesn't have any soft spot for LFC.

I've never coached football, only played, and yet I knew from the first moment that it was gonna be a disaster, as did most other people I think.

It's only a select few who will defend any decision the club makes who were convinced the singing back then would work out.

Any one who wears the shirt has my support and Rodgers will have my backing till the day he leaves, but that doesn't mean that if a casual fan points out a legitimate criticism, then is is somehow not 'valid' because they haven't got a UEFA A license.
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Offline Carlito Roberto

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #45 on: October 18, 2014, 05:15:09 pm »
By the way criticise after the event is ok, like well i think he got that wrong, but to actually think you know better than him about his job is delusional at best.
There you have it, calling events as you see them at the time is banned. You must wait until something has definitively succeeded, or failed before you can pass comment. Should make for an interesting forum.

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #46 on: October 18, 2014, 05:25:07 pm »
"Boo Hoo, agree with me or I'll stop posting".

Simplistic comment.... Time is valuable and so is information. 

You might go back and review some of his posts ---- to see how much time and care he took in helping many here understand football at the professional level.

Turning it into an ultimatum meme, is not only inaccurate, but reeks of indifference.  This is the complete opposite of the spirit PoP brought.
Find someone much more worthy to distort than PoP; this should not be hard for you.
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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #47 on: October 18, 2014, 05:34:13 pm »
Just on this issue, I remember February 3rd or 4th 2011, I was in work a few days after the signing. I worked at the time with a Manc who was at it from the moment I got in to the office. I agreed with him basically all day, and I think I was more angry at Liverpool football club that day than a die hard Manc who doesn't have any soft spot for LFC.

I've never coached football, only played, and yet I knew from the first moment that it was gonna be a disaster, as did most other people I think.

It's only a select few who will defend any decision the club makes who were convinced the singing back then would work out.

Any one who wears the shirt has my support and Rodgers will have my backing till the day he leaves, but that doesn't mean that if a casual fan points out a legitimate criticism, then is is somehow not 'valid' because they haven't got a UEFA A license.

The difference between "the casual fan" and someone like Phase of Play (licensed etc.) is that PoP spent time actually educating people with citations, language, personal experiences, and he actually sent me training exercises as well as academic journals for injury prevention.   

Phase had no problems defending his points from the likes of people who wanted to learn or that asked for knowledge.  He often admitted that he did not have all the answers or was careful not to tread outside his expertise.  But it really was not his job to argue with a consistent lot of pseudo-intellectual football bullshitters, who need to feel that what they have to contribute is equally as important as Brendan Rodgers, or people who make their living in coaching. 

This is a central issue of the internet age, a little information makes people so much more dangerous.  And when it is apparent to most everyone that a specific poster has no clue what they are talking about ---- well, this leads to hurt feelings and frustration from those who would wish that these discussions limit the tone of certainty unless you can back it up.
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You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer

Offline Latenight Surfer

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #48 on: October 18, 2014, 05:37:02 pm »

 The most interesting debates here are the ones which include "your passion" against "my passion" discussions, pointless threads that don't make any sense from head-to-toe from the beginning, are actually the "hot" threads in here because they are started by people who have been here for a long time, that is the only reason that those threads are currently so active.

If the idea of some people here is that we are just fans and we should just be that way, then guess what we are being that way... when we watch THE MATCH, we cheer for our team during the 90 minutes and THEN we come on forums to discuss football in general and the topics which interest us. If everyone saw the world through these people's eyes then we'd all be having posts which just read "yaaaa" & "ooooooh" because that's what a fan does when he watches a game.

If this continues like this then the very purpose of having a forum itself gets defeated.

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Offline Red Sea

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #49 on: October 18, 2014, 05:38:33 pm »
I don't understand. Do you think rodgers is doing something wrong? Do you not support him? if you do then you won't question him as rodgers is always right, for the sole reason that he is manager of the institution of liverpool football club.

Offline Shady Craig

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #50 on: October 18, 2014, 05:41:51 pm »
PoP didn't leave the site because of the likes of posters who shoot down threads like this ,he left because of some of the posters who revel in threads like this.

Not taking sides just pointing out the facts.

Offline Redman0151

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #51 on: October 18, 2014, 05:44:08 pm »
I don't understand. Do you think rodgers is doing something wrong? Do you not support him? if you do then you won't question him as rodgers is always right, for the sole reason that he is manager of the institution of liverpool football club.

Can you not discuss whether you think we need to change tactically going forward or where/why we've been struggling without being #RodgersOut ?
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Offline Redman0151

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #52 on: October 18, 2014, 05:45:15 pm »
PoP didn't leave the site because of the likes of posters who shoot down threads like this ,he left because of some of the posters who revel in threads like this.

Not taking sides just pointing out the facts.

Are you his spokesperson or something? He left over a month ago, get over it, if you crave his opinion that much go and case him to make a blog or something.

RAWK existed just fine before PoP and will exist just fine after PoP
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 05:47:28 pm by Crosby Wych »
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Offline Latenight Surfer

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #53 on: October 18, 2014, 05:47:10 pm »
The difference between "the casual fan" and someone like Phase of Play (licensed etc.) is that PoP spent time actually educating people with citations, language, personal experiences, and he actually sent me training exercises as well as academic journals for injury prevention.   

Phase had no problems defending his points from the likes of people who wanted to learn or that asked for knowledge.  He often admitted that he did not have all the answers or was careful not to tread outside his expertise.  But it really was not his job to argue with a consistent lot of pseudo-intellectual football bullshitters, who need to feel that what they have to contribute is equally as important as Brendan Rodgers, or people who make their living in coaching. 

This is a central issue of the internet age, a little information makes people so much more dangerous.  And when it is apparent to most everyone that a specific poster has no clue what they are talking about ---- well, this leads to hurt feelings and frustration from those who would wish that these discussions limit the tone of certainty unless you can back it up.

There are a lot of those people who would like to participate in a good discussion relating to football whether it is accurate or not but it surely is not out-of-place, the discussion.

What you are saying is like, watching a movie and not giving a review of it or having a discussion about how good or bad the movie is, just because you are not a director or want to be a director. Nobody is giving you or anyone a special invitation to come and be a part of such discussions it's just that certain people will have certain tastes and preferences and that is why they join forums so that they can discuss with like minded people, if you someone doesn't like something then he should stay out of it (as long as it is a good discussion without any sort of disrespect to any one on THIS forum).

What is the point of commenting in a thread which you don't like and say how things should be? It's like going to the cat advice thread and saying "I like dogs".
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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #54 on: October 18, 2014, 05:50:12 pm »
The most interesting debates here are the ones which include "your passion" against "my passion" discussions, pointless threads that don't make any sense from head-to-toe from the beginning, are actually the "hot" threads in here because they are started by people who have been here for a long time, that is the only reason that those threads are currently so active.

If the idea of some people here is that we are just fans and we should just be that way, then guess what we are being that way... when we watch THE MATCH, we cheer for our team during the 90 minutes and THEN we come on forums to discuss football in general and the topics which interest us. If everyone saw the world through these people's eyes then we'd all be having posts which just read "yaaaa" & "ooooooh" because that's what a fan does when he watches a game.

If this continues like this then the very purpose of having a forum itself gets defeated.

One issue that needs to be recognized is that when one spends enough time on this site, and posts enough ideas, there are people here that we connect with and/or like to read/engage.   So, when I read someone's having a go at Timbo, using OOT language or when someone is highly critical of Phase of Play, I am aghast. 

While I do not have much of reaction to this thread (other than editing its OP headline possibly), I do have a strong reaction to those who besmirch posters here that have a history, are highly knowledgable, and make us all better through their time and energy.  At the same time, it often takes someone who has relevant information or a mod to call out some of the more egregious posters (with newbie track records, and highly contentious opinions, and no real interest in getting to know people here except through confrontation). 

The purpose of this forum involves process as much as it does content, mate.  And in terms of your most recent post, we are talking about separate issues.  I am talking about people - how to treat them, and you are talking about the nature of forums.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 05:55:16 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Offline Shady Craig

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2014, 05:51:28 pm »
Are you his spokesperson or something? He left over a month ago, get over it, if you crave his opinion that much go and case him to make a blog or something
Haha I couldn't give a shit that he's left as I rarely go in threads like this anyway so never even read much of his posts ,just offering a fucking explanation as to why he's left soft lad.
 
Actually in the inactive posters thread I was the only one not sticking up for him ,but you know whatever it's easier for you to label me as one of his fucking fanboys going off ONE post that doesn't even have me sticking up for him ?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 06:02:30 pm by Shady Craig »

Offline Billy The Kid

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2014, 05:51:28 pm »
There you have it, calling events as you see them at the time is banned. You must wait until something has definitively succeeded, or failed before you can pass comment. Should make for an interesting forum.

I hope I don't get in trouble for saying what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway. 

Up until about 2 to 3 years ago the main LFC board was indeed an interesting forum. It had a lot of very insightful posters. If you go a little further back to say, 6 or 7 years ago, it was even better. I'm sure most posters who were posting on these boards back around then would agree with me on that. Don't get me wrong, we still had a few weapons whoppers and beauts here and there, but in general the discussion was quiet good. Aggression and abuse was also a lot less frequent than it is now.

Over the years (and again, this is just my observation) the amount of decent contributors to the site began to dwindle. As the site grew in numbers, the quality of the discussion seemed to go downwards. More and more "Internet managers" started inhabiting more and more threads to spout more and more shite. A lot of the decent posters had enough and just left. I can't say that I blame them to be honest. I think the fact that the round table threads contain about a tenth of the traffic of post match threads, yet have 1000% better quality content, is quiet indicative in itself   

I'm sure that the opening poster had good intentions when he made this thread. I'm certainly not saying that topics shouldn't be discussed and opinions shouldn't be shared. Of course they should. Its a forum at the end of the day. Its just that threads of this nature, where the managers tactical methods are under question, rarely go anywhere except right down the shitter. I take my hat off to the Mods these days, I really do.
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Offline Latenight Surfer

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #57 on: October 18, 2014, 05:56:47 pm »
I don't understand. Do you think rodgers is doing something wrong? Do you not support him? if you do then you won't question him as rodgers is always right, for the sole reason that he is manager of the institution of liverpool football club.

I agree that the title of this thread isn't doing much any help here, but beyond that the OP had some good points from his side which he felt were worth discussing. No body is questioning Rodgers here, but what do we do on football forums then? Talk about "what's your favorite dish" "I so want to have that too" "ummma"?

This is just a football related discussion mate do not make it a matter of faith when you login, do that when you logout and when the team is playing on the field.

So to talk about the tactics involving Liverpool FC you have to be friends with Rodgers, but to criticize Ferguson or a Mourinho and his "negative" tactics we can just be Liverpool FC fans and should not have to know anything about Chelsea or their player and their manager's decisions while he is on the touch line?

We can say "fuck you" you use negative tactics without having a coaching badge?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 06:17:52 pm by Latenight Surfer »
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #58 on: October 18, 2014, 06:11:44 pm »
We want interesting discussion on the boards and the OP does say that he doesn't have all the answers and isn't coming over all 'football manager' by any measure but I can also understand why posters have issue as there is an implication that Rodgers hasn't got his tactics right rather than being faced with injuries and players bedding in, which is my personal view. But surely that is where the interesting discussion can be found , is it tactical or due to specific circumstance rather than each side purely slagging off the other.
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Offline Latenight Surfer

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #59 on: October 18, 2014, 06:15:41 pm »
One issue that needs to be recognized is that when one spends enough time on this site, and posts enough ideas, there are people here that we connect with and/or like to read/engage.   So, when I read someone's having a go at Timbo, using OOT language or when someone is highly critical of Phase of Play, I am aghast. 

While I do not have much of reaction to this thread (other than editing its OP headline possibly), I do have a strong reaction to those who besmirch posters here that have a history, are highly knowledgable, and make us all better through their time and energy.  At the same time, it often takes someone who has relevant information or a mod to call out some of the more egregious posters (with newbie track records, and highly contentious opinions, and no real interest in getting to know people here except through confrontation). 

The purpose of this forum involves process as much as it does content, mate.  And in terms of your most recent post, we are talking about separate issues.  I am talking about people - how to treat them, and you are talking about the nature of forums.

Did you even read Timbo's posts when that thread was started and how rude he was to some of the people there including mods? He later on apologized too just like he did to me (And I too apologized to him later) and what do you make of that? And how "aghast" were you then?

It's always about how the OP is addressing the issue that shapes the thread and it's content and in this case the OP wasn't disrespectful to anyone, maybe a bad title but the content had the potential to go at least a few pages without "shit".

You think that it is my hobby to pick fights? I only argue with those who shoot down people for expressing their opinion in a respectful way. You discuss things without getting too emotional but the people you defend don't.



« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 06:19:11 pm by Latenight Surfer »
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Offline Alan B'Stard

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #60 on: October 18, 2014, 06:19:29 pm »
We have lost our best player since Gerrard was at his peak. Tactics will inevitably have to change as our fwd line is different. I think he has changed certain aspects of our game, but nothing fundamental. The philosophy remains the same.

We have had a lot of injuries and been inconsistent because of that and a few players adjusting to life at a big club. Will take time but I think we will still be ok for at least 4th place.
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Offline GregCharrua

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2014, 06:21:42 pm »
Title change!

This is the topic I'm interested in. Comparing how we played last year to how we might possibly play to the strengths of WHO IS AVAILABLE TO THE MANAGER.

This is not a thread for CRITICISM of how the CURRENT MANAGER is deploying our squad, merely a place for discussion of possibilities and what fans see on the pitch and think about, in a purely HYPOTHETICAL way and for the mere enjoyment of discussion.

(How's that?)


Sorry to any who read criticism in my first title - I love Rodgers and obviously he not only has access to more information but more experience in every possible level! But I like talking football and possibilities and tactics and LEARNING ABOUT THE GAME and hypothesizing about our squad and its merits. So there you go.

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2014, 06:27:15 pm »
Did you even read Timbo's posts when that thread was started and how rude he was to some of the people there including mods? He later on apologized too just like he did to me (And I too apologized to him later) and what do make of that?

It's always about how the OP is addressing the issue that shapes the thread and it's content and in this case the OP wasn't disrespectful to anyone, maybe a bad title but the content had the potential to go at least a few pages without "shit".

You think that it is my hobby to pick fights? I only argue with those who shoot down people for expressing their opinion in a respectful way. You discuss things without getting too emotional and the people you defend don't.

One individual stroke does not necessarily color the entire painting so to speak.   I think we need to admit, all of us have the potential to alienate.  However, what makes us supporters together, and people looking for an authentic experience, validated by our love of LFC is that we are able to repair, when we make a mistake.   

In fact, Brendan is a really good model for this.  Some mistakes you can control for (effort, engagement, and implementing the spirit of his objectives), and then there are those mistakes that occur in the heat of the moment or individual errors which need to be corrected.  We do not throw them under bus, but find a different way to engage.    Again, one post does not sever the connection, and there is also some responsibility for people to take in making sure their points are clear and their understanding of posts is even clearer as language can be a messy bit. 

As far as your second and third paragraphs, I do not understand what topics you are addressing and why you are directing them at me.  This OP is fine (minus a little of the tone), but we can live with it.   My issue had to do with a few here slagging off PoP and on another thread Timbo.   
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 06:29:47 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2014, 06:29:03 pm »
Title change!

This is the topic I'm interested in. Comparing how we played last year to how we might possibly play to the strengths of WHO IS AVAILABLE TO THE MANAGER.

This is not a thread for CRITICISM of how the CURRENT MANAGER is deploying our squad, merely a place for discussion of possibilities and what fans see on the pitch and think about, in a purely HYPOTHETICAL way and for the mere enjoyment of discussion.

(How's that?)


Sorry to any who read criticism in my first title - I love Rodgers and obviously he not only has access to more information but more experience in every possible level! But I like talking football and possibilities and tactics and LEARNING ABOUT THE GAME and hypothesizing about our squad and its merits. So there you go.

Greg, mate, you were always fine with me.  Its your OP, and potentially a worthwhile discussion.  Keep at it.
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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2014, 06:30:34 pm »
The main problem is simply this...

WE HAVE LOST OUR BEST PLAYER.

And he's not due back from his knee surgery for a month or more yet :(

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Offline ScouserAtHeart

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2014, 06:34:20 pm »
Just goes to show how worked up we all get over everything  when things aren't going so well.
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Offline GregCharrua

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2014, 06:36:51 pm »
Well at least this has been a lesson in creating threads, if nothing else. I take responsibility for having a title that was wide open to take in negative way. I also take responsibility for not having and a very good OP, without much real specifics.

I guess part of the lack of specifics in my question is that I don't know them; I was hoping for someone to come and respond with something interesting about patterns of play with strikers like Balotelli and Lambert leading the line - proficient with the ball, but not the sort sitting on the shoulder of the defense - instead of Sturridge and Suarez, and what sort of ideas and thoughts might go through Rodgers head, with the options he has in our squad. And about how our new-look squad might change over the course of the season as a result, and what evidence people who can read the game well see in our play so far that might speak to what could come next.

As you see, in my mind, it was far from a thread about is Rodgers making good decisions or not. And it's my fault of course for not conveying what was in my mind very well. Obviously there's a lot more responsibility in making an OP to generate solid conversation... honestly I would prefer not to start a thread, but I already bothered PoP and others by PM for their thoughts and had no answer, and wanted to hear knowledgable fans chat about it!

Cheers!

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #67 on: October 18, 2014, 06:41:50 pm »
One individual stroke does not necessarily color the entire painting so to speak.   I think we need to admit, all of us have the potential to alienate.  However, what makes us supporters together, and people looking for an authentic experience, validated by our love of LFC is that we are able to repair, when we make a mistake.   

In fact, Brendan is a really good model for this.  Some mistakes you can control for (effort, engagement, and implementing the spirit of his objectives), and then there are those mistakes that occur in the heat of the moment or individual errors which need to be corrected.  We do not throw them under bus, but find a different way to engage.    Again, one post does not sever the connection, and there is also some responsibility for people to take in making sure their points are clear and their understanding of posts is even clearer as language can be a messy bit. 

As far as your second and third paragraphs, I do not understand what topics you are addressing and why you are directing them at me.  This OP is fine (minus a little of the tone), but we can live with it.   My issue had to do with a few here slagging off PoP and on another thread Timbo.

Then I don't know how many strokes you have seen in my painting to judge me like this. I do not judge anyone unless I am left with no other option. I always try to enjoy a good debate about things that interest me and I don't like to offend people in anyway on purpose, if you want to judge me then you must spend some time in reading my posts.

The rest, let us just leave it out of this thread.
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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #68 on: October 18, 2014, 06:42:46 pm »
Really don't understand why the OP is being given such a hard time.

If were not allowed to give our opinions on football then why not just close RAWK down now?

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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2014, 06:55:30 pm »
Then I don't know how many strokes you have seen in my painting to judge me like this. I do not judge anyone unless I am left with no other option. I always try to enjoy a good debate about things that interest me and I don't like to offend people in anyway on purpose, if you want to judge me then you must spend some time in reading my posts.

The rest, let us just leave it out of this thread.

Okay, lets slow down.

My comment about strokes in a painting (analogy of using one post to characterize an entire body of postings) was in response to your statement about Timbo, mods, and passionate posts.  It had nothing to do with you as a person or anything you have said about this OP.  I think you have accounted yourself well here. 

My reason for responding to your posts (mostly about the forum losing its meaning) had more to do with previous thread dialogues often frequented by Phase of Play.  Feel free to go back and see if my language could be clearer as I am not opposed to being edited.

I am not sure how we got to the subject of you and judging you.  Maybe, you could PM me with specifics.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 12:35:10 am by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Offline Dougle

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2014, 07:28:20 pm »
I think BR started off at Anfield with an obvious attempt to replicate his Swansea patterns. It did not work really. Then when Coutinho and Luis and Daniel got in the groove he went with it. Last season he went with Luis and Daniel and eventually Raheem. He (to my untutored eye) has adjusted his tactics regularly depending on who is available  more than who we are playing I would say. I think he is becoming more and more a pragmatic manager.
We don't have Luis or Daniel, we don't have the pace and ferocity up front anymore well he has to change it. He has and he will. I can see us becoming more a ball holding team, circulating and boring other teams into making mistakes and losing concentration. I can see us becoming a bit more like Swansea in holding the ball. We have a lot of good technical players so I think he will play to their strengths.

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #71 on: October 18, 2014, 07:58:12 pm »
Thanks to Greg who has changed the title and gone out of his way to clarify his OP,  hopefully now that any personal side issues have been solved can we talk football rather than RAWK please.
Thanks Dougle...
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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #72 on: October 18, 2014, 07:59:35 pm »
has Rodgers been trying to play the same football as last season with this years squad? With two players with limited mobility or who are not going to be making penetrative runs in Mario and Lambert (and Sturridge not available), can we play that sort of game still?

I don't think we have. A lot of the frustration has came from the fact that we weren't set up like we were last season, the 4-2-3-1s etc. We've been trying different things in midfield but with players missing, Coutinho out of form, we've struggled to find a groove to get into really. We haven't found a way to get the best out of players yet but we absolutely have been trying to.

I wouldn't worry too much though. It was illuminating on the TAW broadcast when they said we'd worked on Gerrard further forward in training. Rodgers knows things aren't right, that's why to the dismay of a lot of people he said we are going through a bit of a transition. I don't think he meant the whole year, but it's true. 52 goals gone from our team, 19 assists. That's pretty massive. We were a striker-centric team last year and I think even if we had got a Sturridge-lite or a Suarez-lite in, we'd still be having problems because they were 2 of the best players in the league.

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #73 on: October 18, 2014, 08:04:59 pm »
He's not coming back. He got tired with arguing with people who thought they knew more about tactics, coaching and football in general then he did.

Silly reason that. He was far too sensitive for a grown man.

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #74 on: October 18, 2014, 08:15:45 pm »
The difference between "the casual fan" and someone like Phase of Play (licensed etc.) is that PoP spent time actually educating people with citations, language, personal experiences, and he actually sent me training exercises as well as academic journals for injury prevention.   

Phase had no problems defending his points from the likes of people who wanted to learn or that asked for knowledge.  He often admitted that he did not have all the answers or was careful not to tread outside his expertise.  But it really was not his job to argue with a consistent lot of pseudo-intellectual football bullshitters, who need to feel that what they have to contribute is equally as important as Brendan Rodgers, or people who make their living in coaching. 

This is a central issue of the internet age, a little information makes people so much more dangerous.  And when it is apparent to most everyone that a specific poster has no clue what they are talking about ---- well, this leads to hurt feelings and frustration from those who would wish that these discussions limit the tone of certainty unless you can back it up.

Trend mate, while I don't disagree with anything you say above, I do take issue with the narrow focus of your viewpoint. It's not all about tactics. Also, when the word tactics is used, it does mean different things to different people. It doesn't stimulate everybody's mind the way it does yours. When you discuss tactics you do so through the prism of having studied the subject and earned your coaching badges etc. For a lot of us it's not like that but classifying us as casual is somewhat dismissive. Now I have learned a lot from POP, for instance, on this forum about coaches approach to the game but nothing he or anybody else has written has fundamentally changed my knowledge of what makes a good team good. I will give you a hint, it isn't tactics despite the attempts to bring everything back to it.

 I will be fifty years of age at my next birthday. I lived through a period of unprecedented success for  Liverpool Football Club without giving as much as a fleeting thought to tactics, at least to tactics as they are now viewed and dissected. The first time I really took note was when Kenny started to use Jan Molby as sweeper in a five man defence! Looking back at that, I still can't make up my mind if it's evidence that Kenny was ahead of his time or if it was the first acknowledgement that our side was no longer good enough to rely on our player's superior ability alone.

Since the advent of the premiership there has been a successful attempt to portray the tactical battle between two managers as the single biggest influence on the outcome of the game. This is a remarkable feat when we think about the incredible hyperbole that surrounds the standard of the players themselves. The respective team bosses are now portrayed as Chess Grand-Masters where every move is a pre-ordained response to the others various gambits. It reminds me of the Emperor's New Clothes. But then a lot of the sensationalism around football evoke similar musings.

I am not trying to make out that tactics didn't exist back in the day, of course they did, they were just presented more in terms of footballing philosophies. I am trying to explain that their perceived influence on the game was somewhere behind the ability of the players themselves and the capacity of the manager to motivate them. I remain to be convinced this has greatly changed although i do acknowledge that the ability to extensively scout the opposition through TV/video etc as well as the increase in the number of substitutions has changed the landscape somewhat.

 I was reminded the other night that Bill Shankly often said that anybody who needs to read a book about the game shouldn't be invoved in it. Now that was circa fifty years ago but it's food for thought.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 08:21:38 pm by goalrushatgoodison »
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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2014, 08:55:33 pm »
Whilst there was much in the whole thread that I might comment on, I choose not to and will go for a direct response to the improved title.

I have not got a clue.

As to the bloke who said all that crap about doctors and mechanics, I fix my own car because I am too broke to go to a garage and pay £40 an hour, because I am not making anything like £40 an hour, and guess what, it's not rocket science, you can usually do something that someone else does on youtube to fix a hell of  a lot of things, and it works perfectly. Two MOT's in a row, and I hate messing with cars. I fixed the kids gaming machines the same way also, no probs. As for Barristers, they are more like crooks than the people they defend to my eyes. I'd be all up for a surgeon having a go at me if it was Cancer or similar though, instead of sorting that myself.

Nevertheless, our manager is part of the elite of football management, in the top 20 (and heading in to top 10) out of 50, 000 football managers the world over. He is on a learning curve, but what he does can be like herding cats at times, as indeed I suspect moderating an internet forum is.

What I suspect might be a useful approach though, is some sort of holding pattern, where a style of play that is intended for the cream of the squad is utilised even in the absence of the best players who have been stolen from us by pointless international friendlies injuries. Try to let players who are up and coming or as yet unproven try to step up to the game plan we had in mind. Balo, Lambo and Borini are all excellent footballers, and are capable of scoring in this league and the champions league. When a vacuum occurs as there is at the moment, someone usually surprises us with an outstanding performance, and after the game, we are able to say - didn't see that coming. All the stuff we are missing seeing on the training pitches will tell Brendan who that is for this game tomorrow.
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Offline GregCharrua

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2014, 09:08:05 pm »

I don't think we have. A lot of the frustration has came from the fact that we weren't set up like we were last season, the 4-2-3-1s etc. We've been trying different things in midfield but with players missing, Coutinho out of form, we've struggled to find a groove to get into really. We haven't found a way to get the best out of players yet but we absolutely have been trying to.

I wouldn't worry too much though. It was illuminating on the TAW broadcast when they said we'd worked on Gerrard further forward in training. Rodgers knows things aren't right, that's why to the dismay of a lot of people he said we are going through a bit of a transition. I don't think he meant the whole year, but it's true. 52 goals gone from our team, 19 assists. That's pretty massive. We were a striker-centric team last year and I think even if we had got a Sturridge-lite or a Suarez-lite in, we'd still be having problems because they were 2 of the best players in the league.

Yes absolutely. I felt some of that swansea-dossier idea was set aside with the firepower and stevie/courinho able to launch attacks with auch precision. Perhaps youre right about a mpve more towards possession again--not that we were hoofing it before--but that there will be onus on the team creating chances with movement/possession rather than stevie or coutinho looking up for a runner?

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #77 on: October 18, 2014, 09:08:23 pm »

I don't think we have. A lot of the frustration has came from the fact that we weren't set up like we were last season, the 4-2-3-1s etc. We've been trying different things in midfield but with players missing, Coutinho out of form, we've struggled to find a groove to get into really. We haven't found a way to get the best out of players yet but we absolutely have been trying to.

I wouldn't worry too much though. It was illuminating on the TAW broadcast when they said we'd worked on Gerrard further forward in training. Rodgers knows things aren't right, that's why to the dismay of a lot of people he said we are going through a bit of a transition. I don't think he meant the whole year, but it's true. 52 goals gone from our team, 19 assists. That's pretty massive. We were a striker-centric team last year and I think even if we had got a Sturridge-lite or a Suarez-lite in, we'd still be having problems because they were 2 of the best players in the league.

Yes absolutely. I felt some of that swansea-dossier idea was set aside with the firepower and stevie/courinho able to launch attacks with auch precision. Perhaps youre right about a mpve more towards possession again--not that we were hoofing it before--but that there will be onus on the team creating chances with movement/possession rather than stevie or coutinho looking up for a runner?

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Re: How do we get the most out of the players that are available?
« Reply #78 on: October 18, 2014, 10:16:33 pm »
I am just going to express my opinion on what we could possibly do to get the most out of the players that are available and whoever doesn't find much value in it can tell me so and offer his/her opinion in retort:

1. Less Pirlo/Alonso/Gerrard action (i.e. long-distance, diagonal passing, deep-lying playmaking) from the most withdrawn central midfielder(s). Whoever the most withdrawn central midfielder(s) is(are), until and unless we have Sturridge fit and firing on all cylinders and/or we have both him and another striker from the remaining three who can be an appropriate/adequate strike partner to him, he/they should concentrate more on the methodical passing and moving plus somewhat longer-distance 'vertical' passes to forwards or advanced midfielders further up the pitch and "showing" for the ball.

2. Fewer and less 'enthusiastic/wild-abandon'-style attempts at counter-attacking. If one is on, attempt it but with an eye towards defensive balance.

3. Fewer crosses to 'areas', more shorter-distance 'horizontal' passes from the flank to feet or to particular targets.

4. Less reliance on Mignolet being/becoming a 'sweeper-keeper'.
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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: Does Rodgers need to make more significant tactical changes?
« Reply #79 on: October 19, 2014, 01:00:26 am »
Trend mate, while I don't disagree with anything you say above, I do take issue with the narrow focus of your viewpoint. It's not all about tactics. Also, when the word tactics is used, it does mean different things to different people. It doesn't stimulate everybody's mind the way it does yours. When you discuss tactics you do so through the prism of having studied the subject and earned your coaching badges etc. For a lot of us it's not like that but classifying us as casual is somewhat dismissive. Now I have learned a lot from POP, for instance, on this forum about coaches approach to the game but nothing he or anybody else has written has fundamentally changed my knowledge of what makes a good team good. I will give you a hint, it isn't tactics despite the attempts to bring everything back to it.

 I will be fifty years of age at my next birthday. I lived through a period of unprecedented success for  Liverpool Football Club without giving as much as a fleeting thought to tactics, at least to tactics as they are now viewed and dissected. The first time I really took note was when Kenny started to use Jan Molby as sweeper in a five man defence! Looking back at that, I still can't make up my mind if it's evidence that Kenny was ahead of his time or if it was the first acknowledgement that our side was no longer good enough to rely on our player's superior ability alone.

Since the advent of the premiership there has been a successful attempt to portray the tactical battle between two managers as the single biggest influence on the outcome of the game. This is a remarkable feat when we think about the incredible hyperbole that surrounds the standard of the players themselves. The respective team bosses are now portrayed as Chess Grand-Masters where every move is a pre-ordained response to the others various gambits. It reminds me of the Emperor's New Clothes. But then a lot of the sensationalism around football evoke similar musings.

I am not trying to make out that tactics didn't exist back in the day, of course they did, they were just presented more in terms of footballing philosophies. I am trying to explain that their perceived influence on the game was somewhere behind the ability of the players themselves and the capacity of the manager to motivate them. I remain to be convinced this has greatly changed although i do acknowledge that the ability to extensively scout the opposition through TV/video etc as well as the increase in the number of substitutions has changed the landscape somewhat.

 I was reminded the other night that Bill Shankly often said that anybody who needs to read a book about the game shouldn't be invoved in it. Now that was circa fifty years ago but it's food for thought.

This is a fantastic post. 

I like it for its honesty, challenge, and its well-measured tone.  To be honest, you make many good points about tactics, the usual supporter's experience, your personal experience watching LFC and how to create a culture of inclusiveness.   In the larger scheme, you are right, mate.   However, the title of this thread specifically uses tactics, and some of us are drawn to this and others not so much.

I do want to offer a few mild counterpoints, though. 

While I agree tactics (defined as changing the decisions to be made on the pitch by players) are not the whole enchilada, there is a culture of game analysis in the coaching profession.  Its called the "game within game".  Often we are tested, quizzed or challenged upon how (we) might make a change in a game that would benefit our side.  "What would you do with your U8 boys in this situation etc."

This predilection towards prediction or trying to know more can be and often is misguided, especially in public internet forums.  I will say though, that when we watch our gaffer make a change in the game or via substitution that stunningly works (i.e. Subbing off Manquillo and going to a five man midfield leading to Sterling's goal at West Ham or moving to three centrebacks at Goodison in his first year), this creates a passion to understand this 'game within the game' all the more ---- usual fan or coach.

The other counterpoint I might gently offer (as I agree with Shankly's quote there) is that we live in the age where information is a commodity unfortunately.  The right information at the right time often leads to an effective change in any line of work.  While I agree with you about significant change to footballing philosophies have occurred (in fact BR mentioned this in his presser this week ---- he used the term "cycles" through coaching milieus), there is a hidden message that has devilishly reared its head for supporters ----- "to show my loyalty to the club, I must know everything about it is about how they play."  This is hardly possible due to competence, access to practice and a specific knowledge player profiles etc...  So this becomes, in some cases, a journey toward jumping at windmills.

For me, this is where PoP was so good.  He was among the first here (Dougle has just stated something similar) that coaches at the top level tend to be practical with the resources they have.  There is little purity, more adaptation to some coveted principles.  He spent hours clarifying exercise physiology, training methods, set plays, myths about formations, and what makes each player special at this level.  For me, since I already have some of the language of football, this was so valuable.  I did not see it as him talking down, but rather him spending the time for me to uncover what it is that I do not know.  The next time I am in that situation, I thought to myself, I will remember this.  It was valuable.  Now, this may not mean as much to the casual fan, but we do need our translators.

There is little more upsetting than those who call for absurd changes to the squad based on one or two games, or those who consistently draw the wrong conclusions about obvious footballing issues (as stated by Brendan - not me).  This does not mean the casual fan need not participate.  On the contrary, they should.  But, there should be a standard in my opinion.  To echo another poster's idea here, this is what made the RAWK Round Table so interesting to read.  We need more casual fans posting in there, but there needs to be quality too.  Maybe this is too hierarchical and too much for some.  Granted.  However, I am convinced most here know what they like to read and don't.

Loosely translated, this means we should do more watching for enjoyment, trusting the gaffer to make decisions, and looking for trends that keeps us balanced (never get too high with a win and never too low with a defeat) while balancing this with the game inside the game. 

Truly outstanding post, mate!     
« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 03:11:26 am by Trendisnotdestiny »
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You need to get more wives mate, it fixes everything. Apart from then you have loads of wives, which is a nightmare.  -  Djozer