Topic: Tommy Smith - Can at least we as Liverpudlians get it right about him

[Yorkykopite]

Couple of Celtic lads there but surprisingly no Jimmy Johnstone, Yorky? Last seen adrift on a rowboat!

Great players one and all and they could all hold their own against the recognised hard men of the day - ok Leighton aside.

I remember a match at Anfield in the 70s against Leicester City, who at that time were a bit of a bogey side. They got a free kick on the edge of our box and Keith Weller tried to force himself into the 'wall' that our lads had set up. Cue our Tommy trying to forcibly eject him with a series of punches to his back (back of his head?!) as I recall and Weller, in fairness, standing his ground and using his elbows to good effect on Smithy.

Don't think either got booked. Though Weller should have been booked on the occasions he played in white tights for bringing the game into disrepute.

Aye, Jinky was already on Timbo's list.

Those, white tights though! Leicester City used to try all sorts to beat the cold weather. Keith Weller came dressed in his wife's clothes. But remember the big inflatable balloon they used to erect over the Filbert Street pitch? Weird days.

[kavah]

Aye, Jinky was already on Timbo's list.

Those, white tights though! Leicester City used to try all sorts to beat the cold weather. Keith Weller came dressed in his wife's clothes. But remember the big inflatable balloon they used to erect over the Filbert Street pitch? Weird days.

ha ha - bogey team but with weller and Worthington they were magic.

anyone else get thrown out of Tommy's pub in the Cavern walks?

I think he's the only fella I've asked for his autograph while strangling me.

[monkeyharris]

Yeah, it wasn't just Smithy who was overlooked. The team that won 2 leagues, an FA Cup, European cup semi finalists and Cup winners cup finalists, The Liverpool team as printed in the programme..........

Lawrence 3 caps
Lawler      4 caps
Byne        2 caps
Milne        14 caps
Yeats        2 caps
Stevenson 0 caps
Callaghan   4 caps
Hunt         34 caps
St John     14 caps
Smith         1 cap
Thompson 16 caps
Strong       0 caps

Those facts are scandelous. Could never understand why one of the finest teams in European football could muster only a handful of caps between them!!

In fairness the international teams played a lot less games in those days than they do today..for a number of reasons...not just the money and the travel but there were a lot less countries to play. I heard the other day that the 1960 euro championship final was played between Russia and Yugoslavia which now accounts for 22 separate teams. England didn't have to qualify for Mexico 70 and even in their failed attempts in 74 and 78 they were in groups of three and four teams only respectively .
Add in the low number of subs too and less got capped
St. John and Yeates are bonkers low though aren't they..hazard a guess that in those days Scottish managers were biased towards home based players?

Agree though Tommy should have got more bringing the thread back on subject

[Robinred]

Great post Timbo, and right on the money.

The era you reflect on saw levels of "physicality" just not seen in the modern game.

Remember Peter Storey? Terry Paine? Even Johnny Giles. Mind, that Leeds Utd of Revie's had more plain dirty buggers in it than any other team in League One history, if you include sneaky dirtiness as well as the other stuff (Sniffer Clark for example).

Then in Yorky's list the finest attacking header of a ball I ever saw - Alan Gilzean. But he was no Tony Hateley, he could also play. What would he in his pomp be worth at today's prices?

[bigbear]

It's staggering when you look at how few caps that great Shanks team got.

Some truly great players in that side. I think in those days it was very much a manager's preference at that level and possibly a London biased for England certainly. I mean, Chris Lawler, Cally, Tommo were truly great players. Smith may be compared against Bobby Moore perhaps at his peak but he was also a fantastic player as the OP states. A complete footballer and not just a tough guy.

However, if you go beyond Liverpool just to our neighbours, a great player like Howard Kendall hardly got a cap while a London based kicker like Storey got loads.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Great post, Timbo's Goals, thank you. I idolised Tommy Smith as a youngster, and though I was able to watch him in the late sixties, I was just a nipper and didn't really have any specific memories until the seventies. Your article really reminded me of the wonderful player he was.

My anecdote, for what it's worth. In late 1974, we moved to Pittsburgh in the States. I fell in love with the Steelers as I already loved the Reds. It's a long story, but we became friends with Joe Greene (the legendary defensive tackle) and in 1978 when Tommy left Liverpool, I was at his place for dinner and he asked me why I was so down in the mouth. I got to tell 'Mean' Joe Greene about the 'Anfield Iron'!

(He  particularly liked the story of Bill Shankly's quote that 'Tommy wasn't born, he was quarried').

[WaterfordRed]

Tommy Smith- a complete footballer and a massive driving force for Liverpool. First name on my all-time Liverpool side. How could you leave him out?  A better player than Jack Charlton, Norman Hunter or even Bobby Moore? I think so. But he was never, ever going to get into the England side. 

[rusty-la]

Great post and thread Timbo

I saw Tommy play towards the end of his career in my first ever visit to Anfield, I was a ten year old, stood in awe on the Kop.We won 2-1 and somebody pissed on my leg, it was great.

I agree with you, Tommy was always much more than a 'Hard Bastard', he could actually play.

Here's three minutes of highlights from the match that day:

http://talksport.com/football/liverpool-march-title-after-beating-man-city-2-1-anfield-talksport-flashback-14041387048

[I-was-watching-it-on-Sky]

I must have watched different games to you mate.

georgie Best?

Thommo?

St John?

Alec Young?

Jimmy McIlroy?

Charlie Cooke?

Eddie Gray?

Jimmy Johnstone?

Jim Baxter?

Jimmy Greaves?

John White?

Bobby Charlton?

Willie Stevo?

Peter Osgood?

Bleeding hell - I'm drooling all over the fuckin keyboard...

 

Humm...

To an extent that's fair comment, however pretty well all of these guys had to deal with some terrible stick on a game by game basis.

My main point is that the thread is asking us to evaluate Tommy Smith's footballing skills based on the way we look at football these days and re-frame how he is broadly thought of but both the way football is played & appreciated today is very different than his era.

Tommy Smith way highly regarded as a footballer in an era when giving out stick & being able to accept it 'like a man' was the norm for the day.

All the guys you mention [and I suppose a lot more besides] would testify that they were cut down regularly...and to be fair...dished it out as well.

George Best was acclaimed to be among the best in the world [if not thee best at one time] and I remember him as having a bit of a nasty streak in him when the mood took him.

You don't get to play at the top level of any sport without being good at it...and Tommy Smith played at the top level...but he played in an era when the world looked on through very different eyes.

We can honestly say Tommy Smith was a good footballer but there's no real value in trying to suggest his game [and others besides] was any different than it actually was.

Tommy Smith was a 'hard man', Shankly used it [and encouraged the reputation] to serve our purposes, but that wasn't all there was to him.

We don't need to forget one side of his game in order to appreciate the other.

[FlashingBlade]

Excelled as a footballer in his later years , scored a peach of a volley against West Ham once, 76 I think, Kop end , ball came out to edge of penalty area and fell to him knee height , very awkward, but he lent back and hit it sweetly and arced into back to the net.

Also remember years after he retired playing Sunderland away , Leighton James come to take a corner in front of the Liverpool fans and we started singing " Tommy Smith , Tommy Smith.." he looked over his shoulder at us and gave a slightly nervous smile.

[12C]

Took me old fella - god rest his soul.

We sat at the front of the Kemlyn Road down the Kop end.

my abiding memory was the amazing wit from the Kop.

The score was ridiculous and the Kop began singing over and over

"We want a scoreboard, we want a scoreboard..."

Then they switched their demands to one of parity with Everton...

"Everton have got one, Everton have got one"

Then came the killer which had the entire ground fans, players and match officials convulsing in laughter

"They never fuckin use it, They never fuckin use it"

Priceless memories.

 

Also...
Where the F*** is Joey? Where the F*** is Joey
Reply "Joey's Sh@&&ing Esther?

[12C]

FA Cup Semi 1977 Mick Buckley did Smith with a sly bad one. Sunday papers all report that he can't walk because of the injury- deffo out of the replay at Maine Road. Monday he trained, Wednesday he was there on the pitch. No wonder he has so many replacement parts. Yes he was hard, but he was also a very good player. Look at the medals other so called hard men won - or didn't in some cases. Smith couldn't have won as many as he did if he was just a thug like Hunter, Harris or Storey. Every team in that era tried to have a hard man, who could boss the park. Smith was that and more.

[mikeb58]

Great player, geniune tough guy, but skill to match. Adapted his game as his career progressed. Used to go to my school as well !( Cardinal Godfrey in Anfield)

[John C]

Brilliant thread, I'm not sure how many generations never mind decades that we'll have to wait to witness such a player. Of course the game has changed now but his fearsome approach and ability could easily transcend to the modern game.

[PeteRed]

Smith was pretty much a one-man team while Shankly was rebuilding. He held things together until Kevin Keegan came along and took them to a new level. Not a man I'd like to share a drink with but one of the best the club ever had.

I remember Tommy, in interview, saying that he was not a talented footballer but that he worked at it. It seemed he didn't like overly talented players who didn't put the hours in. He mentioned seeing loads of better players than himself falling away as a result. Personally I think he undersold himself.

Before a Derby match (over the road) I attended a pre match lunch with loads of other sponsors etc at Anfield and Tommy was the host on our table. He was funny as fck, but kept going on about his knees, which tbf were really giving him problems, before we all jumped onto a coach to go the match. Tommy came too and was sat opposite me and was great company.

[youll never walk alone it]

great player for us if course, very concerning interview back in 1 of the fanzines back in the 90s, think I will leave it  there

[OLDIE]

I am much more an Emlyn Hughes man, as such I have little time for Mr Smith. I think I should leave it there.

Very strange response.

If Hughes & Smith were able to put aside the obvious dislike for each other and play brilliantly together, surely fans don't need to take sides.

I fucking loved BOTH of them and each would walk into the team today.

The thread is about Tommy. To me he was the best defensive right back we have had. He was not a fluent going forward as Phil Neal or Chris Lawler and the goal returns back that up. As a defender he ruled the roost. He didn't just use his obvious hard man reputation to defeat the winger, his reading of the game was second to non at the time. I actually believe Phil Thompson learnt so much playing alongside him.

Smith could play - his distribution was top notch and he could head a ball.

Anyone who watched him regularly is really fortunate and he was THAT good

[Mutton Geoff]

I think it was Greavsie who used to say when he tackled him he checked what row in the stands he would end up in.

Great servant as for him and Emlyn not relevant now , often feuds within any club.

An inspiration on and off the pitch ,

[moondog]

Tommy Smith agreed to appear in our video "shake your booty" by ill disco. He played the part of a judge in a dance contest- won by Steve swindelli of 25th of May fame! Tommy was the nicest gentleman and wouldn't take a penny in payment, this being soon after he was grassed up to the benefits by some blue shite. Sad the legend would need benefits, they played for next to nothing and loved every minute with the red shirt on.

[Timbo's Goals]

Tommy Smith agreed to appear in our video "shake your booty" by ill disco. He played the part of a judge in a dance contest- won by Steve swindelli of 25th of May fame! Tommy was the nicest gentleman and wouldn't take a penny in payment, this being soon after he was grassed up to the benefits by some blue shite. Sad the legend would need benefits, they played for next to nothing and loved every minute with the red shirt on.

Great stuff.

BTW Did that benefits business ever get sorted?

I can vaguely recall it being in the Echo but didn't see any more.

[Nice Guy Davey]

Couple of Celtic lads there but surprisingly no Jimmy Johnstone, Yorky? Last seen adrift on a rowboat!

Great players one and all and they could all hold their own against the recognised hard men of the day - ok Leighton aside.

I remember a match at Anfield in the 70s against Leicester City, who at that time were a bit of a bogey side. They got a free kick on the edge of our box and Keith Weller tried to force himself into the 'wall' that our lads had set up. Cue our Tommy trying to forcibly eject him with a series of punches to his back (back of his head?!) as I recall and Weller, in fairness, standing his ground and using his elbows to good effect on Smithy.

Don't think either got booked. Though Weller should have been booked on the occasions he played in white tights for bringing the game into disrepute.

Remember Frank Worthington relating a story at a sportsmans dinner about Smith and Keith Weller. Apparently Weller had skinned Smithy in the first couple of minutes but the attack came to nothing and as they're taking up their positions for the goal kick Smith says to Weller " Do that again and I'll break yer f*****n back "  Weller turns to the ref and asks if he heard what had been said and what he intended to do about it. The ref allegedly replied " I suggest you go play on the other wing "
     Youre right though Timbo. I saw him in his sixties pomp and he was without doubt one of our finest.

[Mamadou]

happy birthday to the best Liverpool's rb of all times

[storkfoot]

I just watched that City Liverpool game highlights from '76/'77. Thanks to whoever posted that. I'd forgotten what the Kop was like. I'd also forgotten what a shot Jimmy Case had 

Anyway, due to the nature of my work in the '80s I had the fortune of quite a few meetings with Tommy. He was a really quality down to earth bloke. But, he really struggled with his knees. He was always on sticks and struggled to physically get himself out of bed each morning. If I recall correctly he used to put this down to the cortisone injections they all had to get them on the pitch in those days.

My recollection of his "hard man attributes" was a morning kick off game v. Leeds. It was an 11.30 KO, I think, because of the Grand National. Leeds had the kick off. I can't recall who actually took the kick off but they knocked it to Joe Jordan. Tommy went straight through him, took man, ball, turf, the whole lot 

[Rick13]

I think it's very difficult and unrealistic to compare footballers from different eras but Tommy Smith is one of my favourite Liverpool players. Back in 1972, as a youngster living in Ireland, I decided to write to all the Liverpool players looking for an autograph and photo. To my amazement and excitement, I received 5 replies; an autographed photo from Tommy, Chris Lawler and Kevin Keegan, a photo and letter from Steve Heighway and a letter from Brian Hall (apologising that he had no photo available at the time).

I'm looking at the photo of Tommy now. It shows him running with the ball at his feet in typical determined fashion. I remember remarking at the time I received it that the photo must be a few years old as it had the old style, white oval background, Liver Bird crest on the shirt. Very unusual for the time, and unheard of nowadays, is the fact that the players wore the crest on the right hand side of their shirt.

I was fortunate to meet Tommy at the PFA dinner in London in 1997 ( a Spanish friend of mine who wrote on English football for "AS" got me the ticket as his guest). I got talking to him and during our chat, for the first time, heard of the animosity between him and Emlyn Hughes. I reminded him of the signed photo he had sent me and thanked him for the pleasure he had given this 12 year old boy all those years ago.   

[keyo]

Yeah, it wasn't just Smithy who was overlooked. The team that won 2 leagues, an FA Cup, European cup semi finalists and Cup winners cup finalists, The Liverpool team as printed in the programme..........

Lawrence 3 caps
Lawler      4 caps
Byne        2 caps
Milne        14 caps
Yeats        2 caps
Stevenson 0 caps
Callaghan   4 caps
Hunt         34 caps
St John     14 caps
Smith         1 cap
Thompson 16 caps
Strong       0 caps

Those facts are scandelous. Could never understand why one of the finest teams in European football could muster only a handful of caps between them!!

to be fair, England did not do too badly around that period.....

[Zappa]

I was privileged to see his whole career. If you missed him I feel sorry for you. Him and Crazy Horse (who disliked each other) first names in my squad along with Jocky and Kenny. Tommy has LFC running through his blood and bones and covered every blade of Anfield and made things happen. Today - priceless. He'd have adapted to non-contact football because he could play

[kavah]

Tommy spraying passes around here when he was selected for Team America in 1976. Clemence getting the better of Pele too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOIXbWVW1dY

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/10/pele-bobby-moore-usa-bicentennial-cup

[only6times]

I think he's the only fella I've asked for his autograph while strangling me.

Did you forget Harvey Proctor?

[kavah]

^

ha ha

[keyo]

Tommy spraying passes around here when he was selected for Team America in 1976. Clemence getting the better of Pele too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOIXbWVW1dY

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/jun/10/pele-bobby-moore-usa-bicentennial-cup

Read that.......Pele pissing himself when "Smitty" tried to 'tackle' rivelino!!!

[Medellin]

What a cracking opening post and absolutely spot on too.
Tommy Smith is in my all time first 11 team,alsongside Hughes that CB partnership would easily be the best we've ever had.

[kavah]

What a cracking opening post and absolutely spot on too.
Tommy Smith is in my all time first 11 team,alsongside Hughes that CB partnership would easily be the best we've ever had.

Welcome to rawk. Yes the opening post is great, a really marvelous example of what this website is all about.
You must be as old as Timbo 

[Tommy Gunn]

Not long after Alan Balls white boots first made their debut I could have swore Tommy Smith wore red boots and the Kop started singing "Oh, where dyou get those boots"? On the internet someone from the Echo reckons it was silver boots Tommy sported but that seems a bit far fetched even for the glam rock era!

[Medellin]

Welcome to rawk. Yes the opening post is great, a really marvelous example of what this website is all about.
You must be as old as Timbo 

Thankyou.

I'm sure Timbo won't appreciate you saying that.
I started watching the reds when Smith was probably half way through his career at Lfc,i'm not privileged to have seen or can compare the early years to the back end.
A fantastic player,wore his heart on his sleeve,loved the club and i'll tell you from when i saw him playing he was a very skilful player for a defender.

[BossThaLa82]

Tommy Smith was way before my time but from the stories my dad told me about him how good of a footballer he was and he would run through brick walls for us and the badge was virtually ingrained on his chest.

My arl fella's boss used to be mates with him and when Tommy used to come into the shop in town he showed them his legs once and they was black and blue riddled with scares he was a warrior on the pitch and used to sort everyone out with free tickets.

Liverpool legend they don't make them like him anymore.

[So… Howard Philips]

I watched Smith in the 60s and took him for granted. He was our Chopper Harris, Norman Hunter etc. It was only in the 70s, when he must have been in his late twenties/early thirties that I realised what a good footballer he was. And that goal in Rome! I was stood next to a plainclothes Roman copper and I'd been chatting to him about the journey, travel problems, beaten by United. When we all went mad when Smith's header hit the net I explained he was a local hard case and great footballer and i think he became an ib=nstant fan. Might have changed his view in 1984. though.

[JP!]

I think that his public comments don't do him many/any favours with a lot of fans, but great player all the same.

[Keith Lard]

Wow - Tommy Smith doesn't come across well at all in this Howard Gayle article. Deeply deeply disappointed and saddened to read this: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/oct/03/howard-gayle-being-liverpool-first-black-player-was-difficult

I know they were different times, but still ... he comes across very poorly.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Were comments deleted on this page or am I hallucinating? He comes across as a racist imo

[kavah]

Were comments deleted on this page or am I hallucinating? He comes across as a racist imo

there have been some comments in the Howard Gayle thread