Author Topic: Possession based football  (Read 16685 times)

Offline DonkeyWan

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Possession based football
« on: April 5, 2011, 10:49:45 am »
There has been a lot of talk since the signing of Carroll about the style of play Liverpool are developing. Various formations (433, 451, 4411, 442) have been spoken about and a lot of emphasis placed on certain positions in the pitch (we need wide men, ball-playing CBs etc). However, I believe the real issue is not about the numbers, or the positions, rather it is about the style of play we are engaging in. Success in the 70s and 80s was built on, I would argue, possession-based football, midfielders like Molby who would take the ball, hold it and find a pass. Surrendering possession was a crime and had to be rectified by working hard to retrieve the ball, a two-pronged approach. Various coaches (Houllier for example) have tried different, more defensive tactics with less emphasis on ball work, but with limited success.

To play a possession based game requires a certain type of player, with good feet but also  a calm demeanour able to patiently hold onto the ball before releasing it. Currently however, we lack these kind players in the squad. Across out backline Aurelio, Johnson and Agger fit that profile, but two of those are injury prone and more often our back four contains Carragher, Skrtel and Soto, hardy players but limited in terms of passing and more importantly vision.

In the midfield Gerrard is an explosive player but lacks patience and finesse at times, too often looking for the killer ball rather than patiently building. Lucas is the only player who some close to the Alonso/Molby/Hamann style of metronomic passing in the centre, with Meireles more a box-to-box shoot or spray. While his passing is neat, he does not control the play or the tempo. Out wide Maxi is a pass and move player and under-rated in my opinion, we always seem to play better when he starts. But he's probably the only one. Cole is akin to Gerrard, Kuyt like Meirles in approach, no one else other than Maxi and Lucas are in that passing groove mold.

Up front Suarez has quick feet and should be the fulcrum of all attacks. unfortunately when Ngog and Carroll are on the back line just aims long balls at the head of Ngog or Carroll, neither of which look like they would be entirely comfortable playing a possession game though both have good touches at times.

The point is, I for one would like to see a more possession-based game. But to achieve that would require a serious, serious overhaul of the squad and the purchase of a lot more technically skilled, mobile players. I would argue in the current squad only Agger, Johnson, Aurelio, Maxi, Lucas and Suarez fit the profile (to a lesser extent Spearing) and two of those have poor fitness records. The other option is to bring in widemen to use Carroll, Kuyt and Ngog as targetmen and concede greater possession of the possession of the ball in favour of more direct attacking play. But that may take us down a different route, a longer more circuitous one that would see that kind of possession play taking a lot longer to achieve. So, this summer, do we focus on getting the most from what we have now, or aim to achieve a certain style of play at the cost of effectiveness? Do we want ball players players, or players that complement?
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #1 on: April 5, 2011, 10:52:55 am »
Ball retention has on a whole been a problem for the club for nearly ten years bar Rafa's best period. We have numerous players, who do not lok after the ball, and are oh too prepared to just give it back to the oppostion. Carra, gerrard.

I might add the lone striker fad has also inhanced the problem, as torres' hold up play was crap.
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Offline smig

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #2 on: April 5, 2011, 10:58:00 am »
Possession is the Liverpool creed, but it's pointless if there's no cutting edge or incision to it. That's what we've lacked at times this season as well as an ability to dominate sides and pin them back, particularly away from home. We've also lacked targets out wide, players who can run with the ball and by virtue of them doing so, allow the side to push up the pitch 10-20 yards and relieve pressure. That's why a quick winger is essential this summer.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #3 on: April 5, 2011, 10:59:04 am »
For me an interesting question would be to discuss what people think how much of possession a team needs in order to be successful.

Bayern comes to my mind. They dominated every side but gave away more points than ever in the league.


I like possession based football but it´s not the key to instant success on the top level. You need flexibility in every game situation in order to react to something different if it doesn´t work. Rafa had 5 to 6 "systems" for his teams, there you can see how much he trusted his squad ;)
« Last Edit: April 5, 2011, 11:01:31 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #4 on: April 5, 2011, 10:59:33 am »
Possession is the Liverpool creed, but it's pointless if there's no cutting edge or incision to it. That's what we've lacked at times this season as well as an ability to dominate sides and pin them back, particularly away from home. We've also lacked targets out wide, players who can run with the ball and by virtue of them doing so, allow the side to push up the pitch 10-20 yards and relieve pressure. That's why a quick winger is essential this summer.


Great point that and essential in the modern game.
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Offline peachybum

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #5 on: April 5, 2011, 11:00:01 am »
Blackpool play some great stuff when on the ball(they're crap without the ball). Do they have better technical players than us? Wigan try and play. Hell even The Hodge's WBA played some good stuff against us.

to be honest i think our team is easily good enough to TRY and play a pass and move possession game. It's far too easy to say we haven't got all these great techincal players so can't keep the ball. It comes down to the manager and the coaching of the team.

I remember Holloway coming out and saying that he just decided after a few failures in management when he was quite a defensive direct coach that he was now gonna send his team out to play like Barca. They may never achieve it but he's going to try. He then got little Blackpool promoted.

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Offline ozzy-red

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #6 on: April 5, 2011, 11:08:54 am »
For me an interesting question would be to discuss what people think how much of possession a team needs in order to be successful.

Bayern comes to my mind. They dominated every side but gave away more points than ever in the league.


I like possession based football but it´s not the key to instant success on the top level. You need flexibility in every game situation in order to react to something different if it doesn´t work. Rafa had 5 to 6 "systems" for his teams, there you can see how much he trusted his squad ;)
I don't think it's vital in order for a team to have success, but I think it's essential if teams look to pin the opposition back and dominate the play (as mentioned in an earlier post).
We have lacked a pacey winger who is willing to run at defenders for years. With the acquisition of a winger I think it offers a whole different outlet for the team, in both midfield play and attack. As it allows the central midfielders to spread the play outwide, and trust that it will lead to an outlet to goal, instead of launching all our attacks through the centre of the pitch.
On top of that, I agree with the OP that our central midfielder's have lacked the ability to play simple passes and move - to keep fluidity.
Hopefully someone is brought in to compliment Lucas - possibly Adam - who is capable of spreading the play and helping keep the continuity of our play.
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Offline Cooper-Man

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #7 on: April 5, 2011, 11:10:53 am »
Under rafa we always dominated possession didnt we? But played the safe way instead of going for the kill???

Offline b_joseph

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #8 on: April 5, 2011, 11:17:05 am »
Possession is important but it is much better to be efficient.

Odds are that we are never going to be a team that has the best 65%+ of the time because it is hard to accomplish in this league. Too many games become a war of attrition....the key will be finding the balance between being patient and being direct.
That 2009 year, we werent the best of teams in terms of keeping the ball but we knew how to pick apart our opponents with decent efficiency, which was much more important to us. In the end, we scored a ton of goals and looked like battering every team we faced.

Now we can talk about players who are or arent capable but that is the issue. It shouldnt be about who is capable and who isnt, it should be something that is expected of you. We are not competing for the league or the top 4...so if certain players make a mistake right now because they overplayed, who cares? This season has become a learning season for many players, a transitional season where Kenny can see which player can do what job for him next year and the years after it.
So it isnt a situation where anyone could just say '' well, if we had a different player to Carra, then we'd play the ball around better''. It is more than one or two players...its a mentality that we need to create and stick to, through thick and thin.  We have played more than enough games under Kennny where these same players have played the right way as a group..Saturday wasnt one of them but thats one of the reasons why we are 6th.
« Last Edit: April 5, 2011, 11:19:33 am by b_joseph »

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #9 on: April 5, 2011, 11:18:43 am »
A good op.

Instinctively, I am a "possession" fan - if you have the ball, the opposition cannot score,

The problem withh possession football is that it can become an end in itself, and you only need to have the ball for a few seconds to score. Over the years Wimbledon, Cambridge Utd and now Stoke mastered the art of defending well but making the most of the ball when in their possession by putting it into the danger areas a quickly and often as possible.

As a veteran fan I can certainly confirm that a hallmark of our golden era was that we retained the ball from defence.In recent years that has broken down.
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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #10 on: April 5, 2011, 11:18:55 am »
^^ That is why under Rafa we rarely LOOKED like losing and mostly looked in control bar his  last season. You control possession , you control the tempo and the game. Under Kenny we have looked a great passing side at times but played mostly on the counter attack. Quick crisp passing to take the ball forward when gaining possession as opposed to patiently constructing plays to break open the opposition.

I guess as a whole the PL does not favour that type of play as much as some of the European leagues due to the sheer physicality of it and leniency exercised by Referees. That is why we see most European sides , even ones from lesser leagues are comfortable in possession.
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Offline OneTouchFooty

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #11 on: April 5, 2011, 11:23:09 am »
Think Gerrard is more than capable of playing the nice quick pass and move football myself. He does lack restraint though and can be cavalier with how be uses the ball. But think back to some of our games of the 08/09 season and some of our moves that Gerrard produced with his deftness of touch or vision showed how technically gifted he is and sometimes he can be on a different level to the likes of Lucas and Maxi.
« Last Edit: April 5, 2011, 12:33:20 pm by OneTouchFooty »

Offline b_joseph

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #12 on: April 5, 2011, 11:27:38 am »
Think Gerrard is more than capable of playing the nice quick pass and move football myself. He does lack restraint though and can be cavalier with how be uses the ball. But think back to some of our games of the 08/09 season and some of our moves that Gerrard produced with his detness of touch or vision showed how technical gifted he is and sometimes he can be on a different level to the likes of Lucas and Maxi.
He can but he is much better when he is afforded the opportunity to make those killer balls regularly. That means having players around him who will be a little more patient to counteract the fact that Stevie will give the ball way now and then.
Alonso and Masch were perfect for that because they both gave him the protection that he needed...possession based in Xabi's case and defensively for Mascherano.

If we are to put Stevie in a situation where he is relied upon to be a possession type player, that wont end well IMO.

Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #13 on: April 5, 2011, 11:35:28 am »
gerrard possession based? no way. He is the biggest criminal of giving it away too easy.
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Offline cgahan

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #14 on: April 5, 2011, 11:41:10 am »
I don't agree that Johnson has that calmness on the ball. His forte is his pace, stamina and attacking threat.

Not sure 'possession football' per se is the answer either. How many time we had the lion's share of possession over the last number of years and looked about as dangerous as a night out with Jamie Redknapp.

A weakness i see at times with our passing is how it's executed. When utd or Arsenal are on a roll in a match and passing teams to death, the passes are not only to feet, but rolling along the grass. Often our passing has been arriving at the target half way between his toe and his knee. Which can be the difference between taking the pass in your stride, or making an easier lay off/first time pass. Kuyt always springs to mind. (Don't get me wrong, I love him). I have a picture of him in my mind, out the right, leg raised trying to control a pass - and needing a couple of attempts. It slows the attack down a couple of seconds and can make all the difference.

 
 
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Offline Breitner

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #15 on: April 5, 2011, 12:05:23 pm »
gerrard possession based? no way. He is the biggest criminal of giving it away too easy.

Utter rubbish. I knew this would quickly turn into a Gerrard thread, with the same lazy stereotypes. Stevie is one of the best passers of the ball around, be it short or long, and his awareness of others is superb.

Possession is great if there's an end product, otherwise it's just keeping it for the sake of it. I keep reading we dominated possession under Benitez, I was obviously watching a different team then. We had our moments but a lot of the time we couldn't string two passes together, and when we did keep it for long spells we ran out of ideas in the final 3rd.

In fact, I'd go as far as saying that we were a better counter attacking team, especially with Torres in the side. Our best games were when we'd pounce on the ball higher up the pitch and break quickly. For me that is the essence of the English game. There just isn't the time and space to keep it for long spells. If you want to keep the ball it has to be at a quicker tempo and moving forward.
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #16 on: April 5, 2011, 12:08:59 pm »
Utter rubbish. I knew this would quickly turn into a Gerrard thread, with the same lazy stereotypes. Stevie is one of the best passers of the ball around, be it short or long, and his awareness of others is superb.

Possession is great if there's an end product, otherwise it's just keeping it for the sake of it. I keep reading we dominated possession under Benitez, I was obviously watching a different team then. We had our moments but a lot of the time we couldn't string two passes together, and when we did keep it for long spells we ran out of ideas in the final 3rd.

In fact, I'd go as far as saying that we were a better counter attacking team, especially with Torres in the side. Our best games were when we'd pounce on the ball higher up the pitch and break quickly. For me that is the essence of the English game. There just isn't the time and space to keep it for long spells. If you want to keep the ball it has to be at a quicker tempo and moving forward.

Agree with alot of your post, axcept i think gerrard is very wasteful with the ball.
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Offline Fuzion6

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #17 on: April 5, 2011, 12:09:00 pm »
The team Rafa built was really a set of very "direct" players with some key "possession" players sprinkled in. Guys like Gerrard, Torres, Babel, Johnson prefer(red) ball to feet and hitting teams on the counter attack with blistering pace. This was perfect for when Rafa wanted to play counter-attack football...soak the pressure and then hit with pace. The likes of Alonso, Agger and Riera were key as they were very comfortable with the ball, passing it around...but for much of the time Alonso's main role was to get the ball to Gerrard and Torres in positions they would be effective as soon as possible. This is also why I think much of our play over the last 5 years has been pretty static....we have never roamed and rotated players around in different positions Ajax style. The type of attackers we had preferred balls to feet and to attack fast and in a direct manner. It is why Torres has never really fit into the Spain team...he prefers to make one run through, get fed the ball and bang...with Spain the build up is so slow and patient that it is a completely different style not suited to Torres (nor Gerrard frankly).

Offline Breitner

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #18 on: April 5, 2011, 12:10:54 pm »
Agree with alot of your post, axcept i think gerrard is very wasteful with the ball.

He's not mate, it's just a stereotype that's built up from his rash younger days. He might force it now again but that's no different to any top player. He's matured a lot since then, especially under Rafa.
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Offline corners

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #19 on: April 5, 2011, 12:13:02 pm »
In fact, I'd go as far as saying that we were a better counter attacking team [under Benitez], especially with Torres in the side.

Interesting I always thought hitting teams on the counter attack was one of our weaknesses under Rafa. We always seemed to sprint up the pitch and then run into a dead end. Under Houllier we were counter attacking experts but it never worked for Rafa.

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #20 on: April 5, 2011, 12:23:52 pm »
Ball retention has on a whole been a problem for the club for nearly ten years bar Rafa's best period. We have numerous players, who do not lok after the ball, and are oh too prepared to just give it back to the oppostion. Carra, gerrard.

I might add the lone striker fad has also inhanced the problem, as torres' hold up play was crap.
If we had faith in Lucas to become that player last summer and have kept Rafa we would have seen it again.
As said at the time, we needed a manager to stick to the players we had and their play. Insua, Aquilani and Yossi all increased this while Poulsen Cole and PK decresaed it. Roy's tenure will take at least two years to flesh out of the sqaud.

Kenny's desire for Carrol worried me at the time as it loked like a Shearer type buy rather than a Barnes, Bearsley or even Aldo type buy. Time will tell. I cannot understand the need to spend 35m on a forward whose price wouldn't have increased by summer, and considering the large media glare over Torres and that it was the worst time to replace him it's stranger still. If we went and bought a winger first and a centre back who could play we could have used Kuyt upfront as the wingman's target for the rest of the season. Buying Carrol(or LLorente) in the summer would have been the option then, while pushing newcastle down on price.

So it's near impossible to see if we are looking at emulating Newcastle and Blackburn under Kenny, or Liverpool 88 until we see what happens in the summer.
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #21 on: April 5, 2011, 12:30:21 pm »
If we had faith in Lucas to become that player last summer and have kept Rafa we would have seen it again.
As said at the time, we needed a manager to stick to the players we had and their play. Insua, Aquilani and Yossi all increased this while Poulsen Cole and PK decresaed it. Roy's tenure will take at least two years to flesh out of the sqaud.

Kenny's desire for Carrol worried me at the time as it loked like a Shearer type buy rather than a Barnes, Bearsley or even Aldo type buy. Time will tell. I cannot understand the need to spend 35m on a forward whose price wouldn't have increased by summer, and considering the large media glare over Torres and that it was the worst time to replace him it's stranger still. If we went and bought a winger first and a centre back who could play we could have used Kuyt upfront as the wingman's target for the rest of the season. Buying Carrol(or LLorente) in the summer would have been the option then, while pushing newcastle down on price.

So it's near impossible to see if we are looking at emulating Newcastle and Blackburn under Kenny, or Liverpool 88 until we see what happens in the summer.

Interesting post. With regards to Lucas i still feel there is so much more to come from him.
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Offline Breitner

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #22 on: April 5, 2011, 12:36:05 pm »
Interesting post. With regards to Lucas i still feel there is so much more to come from him.

Hopefully he injects a bit more energy into his game, at least consistently, and tempo into his passing, which can be a confidence thing. Along with a lack of movement I think that's one of the reasons why we've struggled to break down weaker teams in the past. When we have too much possession in front of two banks of 4 we can look very static and predictable.
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Offline carling

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #23 on: April 5, 2011, 12:37:24 pm »
It's good possession in the final third we've pretty much failed at since X*** Al**** left.

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #24 on: April 5, 2011, 12:39:16 pm »
A weakness i see at times with our passing is how it's executed. When utd or Arsenal are on a roll in a match and passing teams to death, the passes are not only to feet, but rolling along the grass. Often our passing has been arriving at the target half way between his toe and his knee. Which can be the difference between taking the pass in your stride, or making an easier lay off/first time pass. Kuyt always springs to mind. (Don't get me wrong, I love him). I have a picture of him in my mind, out the right, leg raised trying to control a pass - and needing a couple of attempts. It slows the attack down a couple of seconds and can make all the difference.


Good observation there, our passing is often poorly weighted and doesn't lend itself to flowing onward movement. As Breitner points out above though time and space is a premium in this league and it's very difficult to play a style of football where you dominate possession, that is, unless you have players who are capable of very intelligent movement off the ball to create space and players who can carry the ball past a man (Suarez).  One of the noticeable problems we have seems to be a propensity of some players to either rush the pass under pressure or slightly overhit the pass with a sub-conscious fear of selling a teammate short.

I wonder if it's the case whether we do actually have the foundation and quality (minus a couple of badly needed signings) to play this type of pass and move possession football or if it's just that Kenny needs time to reverse the mentality Roy Hodgson tried to instil in the players where the key focus is on defence throughout the whole team.
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #25 on: April 5, 2011, 12:40:21 pm »
Hopefully he injects a bit more energy into his game, at least consistently, and tempo into his passing, which can be a confidence thing. Along with a lack of movement I think that's one of the reasons why we've struggled to break down weaker teams in the past. When we have too much possession in front of two banks of 4 we can look very static and predictable.

agreed mate wit all that. Everything Lucas does is one pace, if he can up his tempo  slightly he will be a great player.
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Offline Breitner

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #26 on: April 5, 2011, 12:44:01 pm »
I wonder if it's the case whether we do actually have the foundation and quality (minus a couple of badly needed signings) to play this type of pass and move possession football or if it's just that Kenny needs time to reverse the mentality.

Bit of both, though I think we're badly missing some good technical players. Commited lads like Dirk are a great asset to any squad but they're not going to transform your passsing game. Being able to take the ball into feet and move it on crisply and accurately was the basic attributes you needed to play for LFC, seems to have gone west at some point.
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Offline carling

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #27 on: April 5, 2011, 12:44:22 pm »
Hopefully he injects a bit more energy into his game, at least consistently, and tempo into his passing, which can be a confidence thing. Along with a lack of movement I think that's one of the reasons why we've struggled to break down weaker teams in the past. When we have too much possession in front of two banks of 4 we can look very static and predictable.

Indeed, I often find myself looking at the next player who is going to receive the ball because it is just so blindingly obvious that's where it's going.

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #28 on: April 5, 2011, 12:45:13 pm »
Possession is half of it, the other half is the movement. If the opposition set up two banks of four and the ball is going side to side then without positional interplay its easy to defend against.  Having the pacey winger option is another great asset to build punishing attacks with.

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #29 on: April 5, 2011, 12:46:38 pm »
So, this summer, do we focus on getting the most from what we have now, or aim to achieve a certain style of play at the cost of effectiveness?

Do we want ball players players, or players that complement?

I'm not sure either question is valid.

Why would anybody aim to achieve a certain style of play if its not effective? Do you mean not effective short term?

This summer will be a rebuilding one - how effective that will be is down to Comolli and Kenny and how many decisons they get right. In order to know if those decisons are right it will take time - some players will not settle for 12 months, others never will, some will hit the ground running.

We need at least half a dozen in and out - that will transform the squad - but the law of averages would say that we'll get a couple wrong - Dalglish when he brought in Barnes, Aldridge , Beardsley and Houghton did outstanding business - for him to do it again with Carroll, Suarez and half a dozen others would be impossible. So if we get a couple wrong it'll take another season to put it right regardless of our style of play.

I think Kenny will be aiming to buy good players - players that will allow him to play the way he wants to but also to give him options. He can't play as he wants and has very few options at the moment.

We dont have any genuine width and we dont have any real pace. We have limited options up front and our whole left side is missing. Just plugging those gaps would be a start before we look at preferred styles of play. Clearly if we have to buy those players anyway we should buy players that will fit the way we think we want to play but maybe if quality players are available our style of play could be dictated by who we get in e.g. if Coentrao was brought in at left back rather than Baines then potentially you have to be allow for a far more attacking and less able defender  - if we sign Maveaux at left wing and not Turan then the game plan switches again............

as for the 2nd question - I'm not sure why you can't have industrious ball players who can switch from one form of play to another - isn't that what Barcelona try to do? we want players who going forward are creative and mobile and skilled on the ball and players when defending who are dogged, hardworking, disciplined - no reason those players can't be the same players - no reason those same players can't play route 1 when called upon - the more players we have that can do the lot the better - I think we have a least a dozen players who fit the bill and another half a dozen or so I'd be happy to keep in the squad and those players would be flexible and good enough to play whatever system the manager wanted but we do need some changes to balance the squad.

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Offline Discipline

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #30 on: April 5, 2011, 12:48:19 pm »
If Aquilani comes back, you're all in for a great surprise.  :wave
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Offline Breitner

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #31 on: April 5, 2011, 12:48:20 pm »
Indeed, I often find myself looking at the next player who is going to receive the ball because it is just so blindingly obvious that's where it's going.

Yep. It almost feels like the players are self concious and playing within themselves. Very frustrating. Maybe it's because you analyise your own team more intently but for me when I watch other top sides they play with much more freedom and expression. Maybe it's the weight of history and expecation or something I don't know.
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Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #32 on: April 5, 2011, 12:51:08 pm »
Yep. It almost feels like the players are self concious and playing within themselves. Very frustrating. Maybe it's because you analyise your own team more intently but for me when I watch other top sides they play with much more freedom and expression. Maybe it's the weight of history and expecation or something I don't know.

Its laboured slow passing. One thing the mancs, do now and im their pomp, is fiz the ball out to fullbacks, wide players. It gives the opposition no time to get 'set up' against.
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Offline Jezza789

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #33 on: April 5, 2011, 12:51:16 pm »
I fully agree with this, and while agreeing, i believe pitch position is more important than possession itself.

When we were at our best under Rafa (2009), not only did we keep the ball well, but we had wave after wave of attack, and why was this? Because we were positioned so far in the opponents half that they couldn't get out with the ball, and just kicked it back to halfway, and we would start again. Obviously, we need fitter, and quicker players to do this with, but there is no point having good possession if its not in the important areas. Ideally, we want our forwards to be near the opponents penalty box, with the mids not too far behind, so we can take full advantage of any opening that may appear. We could just slide a ball into Suarez, and we know he is more dangerous in the box than at half way. The fact that we would be up the pitch would also mean our wingers (we will need new ones) can easily get near the opponent's byline and put a cross in. Carroll would love that much more than these diagonal balls with no pace to head on. Johnson would be more free to do damage in the flanks, where he is much more comfortable.

If we just hold possession, but in our own half, as soon as we give the ball away our opposition is practically in our half already. This puts unnecessary pressure on the defenders to defend on top of our own box, and puts us in danger of a good cross, a slid in pass, of even a shot from outside the box

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #34 on: April 5, 2011, 12:55:01 pm »
We should aim to use the ball. This is a far more demanding style of play, but it's the only one that can take us to the highest of levels. For me, this is more down to mindset than it is about skill. And it's about what we value. I'll give two examples. First it's Lucas. He very rarely loses possession. Which, for anyone who has played, is a far, far more difficult task than it seems. If we use him as a leading example of what we want, then we'll see the rest of the players adapt. If we praise his contribution (that is, our management team on the training pitch), we'll go down the right track. The second example is Carra. He too plays it simple, but way too many balls forward are just punts. Whether it's his style of play, or how he's told to play doesn't matter. If we are OK with that type of game and if we allow Carra to have a big presence in the side (vice captain for instance), then it will be much harder to change to a more possession based game. Carra is perfectly capable of playing that kind of game too. You just tell him to keep it on the floor and if he hoofs it too much, you put him on the bench. Within a couple of weeks, you'll see him play the ball to the CB or fullback or CM. He won't lose possession, but he'll play safe. Which is fine IMO. He doesn't have to be, shouldn't be, a playmaker.

I use Alonso's/Molby's comment that the majority of a CM's game is to play the ball on and keep possession. Even for those two creative players, it's the safe pass that makes up the lion share of their game.

So it's a mindset. All our players have the skill levels to play a possession based game. We can improve on them, but we can improve here and now, with the players we have and that's the starting point.

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Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #35 on: April 5, 2011, 12:56:41 pm »
agreed mate wit all that. Everything Lucas does is one pace, if he can up his tempo  slightly he will be a great player.
Rafa always went on about quailty in the final thrid. Look at Utd, Rooney , Ronaldo and Teves on to Rooney, Little peahead, and Berbatov. They are looking at three titles in 4 years with a shit enough midfield.

Lucas will get the ball into the forward line and out to wingers/widemen quickly. WE need the backline to play to him first, and players that will turn on the ball infront of him to use the quick ball he supplies. Gerrard was terrible last season at it, Aquilani wonderful.
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Offline Sangria

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #36 on: April 5, 2011, 12:57:16 pm »
Possession is the Liverpool creed, but it's pointless if there's no cutting edge or incision to it. That's what we've lacked at times this season as well as an ability to dominate sides and pin them back, particularly away from home. We've also lacked targets out wide, players who can run with the ball and by virtue of them doing so, allow the side to push up the pitch 10-20 yards and relieve pressure. That's why a quick winger is essential this summer.

The most injurious part of the team to possession based football isn't the cutting edge-lacking attack. It's the fluency-breaking defence. Carragher and Kyrgiakos don't do the simple giving and going necessary for the possession to start building up, and Skrtel does it in the presence of Agger, whether that's because he's with Agger or because he's not with Carragher and Kyrgiakos I don't know. There is too much reliance on the comfort blanket that is Carragher's obvious defensive qualities, but that's at the cost of the far more important possession-oriented part of the game. The break has to be made at some point, and I think it should be done as soon as possible, and move the whole team towards passing and moving.

I've said before that Lucas should be the man to build around, as the standard by which all the others should be judged. This isn't because he is the best player in the side, and the man who should always be in the team. It's because he's an exceptionally good litmus test for whether a player is the pass and move type. He does all the pass and move things, and when he's around other players of this type, he plays naturally, and you can see them giving and offering, giving and going, moving or staying, but always with a mind to keep the ball moving and let it do the work of outmanoeuvring the opponents. If you feel comfortable when Lucas is playing keep ball, these players are the kind to keep. If Lucas giving the ball back becomes an issue, these players aren't the kind you want.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
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Offline Breitner

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #37 on: April 5, 2011, 01:01:15 pm »
If Aquilani comes back, you're all in for a great surprise.  :wave

Wouldn't be a surprise to me and a lot of others, I loved watching him linking up with Stevie last season and it was annoying that he didn't get more playing time. He actively encourages that type of slick forward moving passing game. There's valid concerns over his stamina to play over here but if we want to change our approach we could do a lot worse.
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Offline TrueNorthRED

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #38 on: April 5, 2011, 01:05:47 pm »
It's good possession in the final third we've pretty much failed at since X*** Al**** left.

Possesion football seems to really frustrate lesser teams and seems to force them into tackles they don't want to make. I can remember a few seasons ago when that man  ::) drew more than a few red cards for the opposition. Would love to see us back to it again.
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Offline carling

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Re: Possession based football
« Reply #39 on: April 5, 2011, 01:14:29 pm »
Its laboured slow passing. One thing the mancs, do now and im their pomp, is fiz the ball out to fullbacks, wide players. It gives the opposition no time to get 'set up' against.

Which is massively important if you ask me.  My seat in the Main Stand is pretty much on the halfway line and about halfway up.  I get a great view of how easy it is for our opponents to keep their shape, it is so frustrating watching teams just go through the motions to contain us.

My favourite game in the last few seasons was when we annihilated Portsmouth at Anfield with Aquilani running the show.  Their whole team was just completely bamboozled for 90 minutes they didn't know whether they were coming or going.  Quick, accurate, incisive passing was just encouraging every player to get involved and contribute to the massacre.

Granted not every move can be like that (although you wouldn't have thought it that day), but it is that cutting edge we are so desperately missing.  I fully expect the King to put it right but I don't think it will be an easy task.