Author Topic: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table  (Read 20817 times)

Offline Col

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The party didn't last long.

You know - the party we'd been planning for when Suarez finally got a penalty decision in his favour? Well, it lasted as long as it took to get over the shock of it being not only awarded, but scored too. In fact, some where probably still chuckling away when Agger and Skrtel failed to deal with a long ball, and Walters equalised with a creditably calm finish.

Then, the party went sour. It went quickly from good fun, to a little bit odd, to the kind of party where your old, racist uncle is sitting in the corner shouting obsceneties at anyone and everyone, having just pissed himself from too much Jim Beam and not enough ability to control his bladder.

Speaking of an inability to control things - Jonjo FUCKING Shelvey. He's getting worse with every single game he plays. There's no doubt he has quality, but there's a big difference between having quality and being quality - and the more he plays, the less he looks like he's ever going to be able to make the step up.

There are many things wrong with this Liverpool side, so I'll just touch on a few of them and let you guys do the rest.

Firstly, there's an old saying that "You're judged by your performances in both penalty areas". This is a big issue for Liverpool, because as we all know, not enough players in the squad are capable of making things happen in the attacking box. The players asked to support Suarez - Sterling, Suso, Downing, Shelvey, Cole, Assaidi - are all either far from good enough, or too young to actually know how to influence a game. I could watch Suso play all day, but I'm sure if I did, he still wouldn't score or set up a goal. Sterling is capable of producing something different, but he should be learning from players who are currently not only good players, but effective ones too. We only have one effective player in the final third. One. And I'm including Gerrard in that. These days, he scores and sets up no more than any journeyman midfielder. One effective attacking player is not enough to win games on a regular basis. It's a discussion that's had day after day, week-in, week-out, so I won't dwell on it.

The other side of this is that Suso, Cole, Sterling, Suarez, and Assaidi must have an average height of about 5'9", and (Cole excepted) an average weight of about 10 stone carrying a bag of potatoes. How on earth are Agger and Skrtel supposed to learn how to defend against big, strong, powerful strikers during games, if they never get the opportunity to train against them? It's even worse if they're mobile too - look how good we made Carlton Cole look recently.

The answer is that they essentially have to learn how to handle these types of players during the game - but when those players are effective as well as physical, it's often a very dangerous game. By the time our defence had figured out how to play against Stoke, Stoke had scored three times. One was from a long ball, one from a corner, and one from a long throw. It was actually a bit embarrassing to watch - after all, it's not like it was an unexpected approach from Stoke's point of view, was it?

So, my question here is "Will Daniel Sturridge help us improve in both boxes?"

Is he good enough to  not only bag goals when we play at the weekend, but to sufficiently challenge Agger and Skrtel enough during training to help them learn how to deal with big units?

My second question is this: "With Jonjo Shelvey and Nuri Sahin unwilling to do the dirty work in midfield, Joe Allen too lightweight and suspect during transitions, and Steven Gerrard both too lazy and positionally slack to bother filling in gaps when we lose the ball, how can we close up the gap in front of the two centre backs and become more effective at winning second balls?"

Is Jordan Henderson good enough defensively to sit in alongside Lucas and use his dynamism to press the ball? Or, do we need to buy a physical specimen to play in that destructor role alongside Lucas? Should we be looking to have a dual-protector partnership in the middle a la Mikel - Ramires / sometimes play, especially as we're encouraging both full-backs to attack? How do we fill this massive gap?

My third question is a classic - "What do we need to do with Steven Gerrard?"

He's got all the class and ability in the world, but his legs have gone. We can't play him how United play Scholes, because he doesn't have the discipline and our fowards don't retain possession well enough. He can't play as a central midfielder next to Lucas - he's NEVER been able to play that role.

My preference would be to move him forwards, on the right-hand-side. He's a much more effective player than all our other "wingers" at the moment - he could use that role to whip balls in from wide, or to drive in and link up with Suarez like he did with Torres so well from that position.

My final, two-fold question is regarding Brendan Rodgers - "What mistakes are we making regularly, and is there evidence that Rodgers and his team are noticing and working on fixing them? Also, is Rodgers' philosophy hindering our short-term progress by trying to implement style over pragmatism at any cost?"

Over to you.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2012, 03:11:57 am »
I was going to reply with quotes, because the OP asks some excellent and clear questions. And they need to be asked. I think it is a fair statement for me to make that I am a big believer in BR's work, his methods, and his appointment. I think, long term, it is a good move. But that doesn't mean there aren't some big red flags in the short term. Much like with Hodgson, there are things that happen that just make you do a double-take, because some of the questions to ask are just basics of coaching and tactics. The worry for me is that BR might be overthinking it at times, and second-guesses himself, when the instinctive thing would be the right thing to do. The Stoke game was a perfect example of that for me. I've mentioned it a few times, but in the Premier League, with a large number of teams attacking directly down the middle, the idea of split centrebacks just isn't the safest defensive arrangement for me. We'll see below a comparison of what the instinctive thing to do is, and what is largely ineffective. The issue for me is the simplicity of one idea, and the complexity of another. If BR can focus on the simplicity, he might be better positioned to get the complex football he aspires to.

Liverpool’s System -

I think most fans expected the same line-up as against Fulham to be played, although there was a solid case for certain changes to be made - if not to the system, then for the personnel. The 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 system that worked so well against Fulham was in all probability going to be BR's system of choice. Hindsight is 20/20, but as I’ve said before, we leave a great big hole in the defence with the split centrebacks, and against certain teams this becomes a major issue because the hole is in the space that they attack directly. There are two solutions to this – the first one is for the centrebacks to play more like a traditional central defence – approximately 10 yards apart at all times, sliding left and right as a unit to cover the strong side of the opposition’s attack. The other way to cope, which is my preference given the way BR wants to attack, is to play with three defenders, with two defensive mids in front of them. That gives you the flexibility to play with either 2 or 3 forwards (in a 3-5-2 or 3-4-3). We are so sensitive in that area of the field that teams don’t even have to do much in-depth scouting to figure out how to attack us. At half time, the average positions of Agger and Skrtel were practically in the fullback positions. This indicates that both Reina saw a lot of the ball in possession, and that Stoke were getting a lot of balls forward that were picked up by Reina. The final average positions showed that the gap had closed up some, but it was, as we shall see below, still wide open and available for penetration from the other team.

In midfield and attack, though, although we kept our shape, our “2-3-1” changed into a “1-2-3” with Shelvey spending more time behind Gerrard’s position than ahead of it. This has been a problem for a long time with Shelvey, for me – he lacks tactical and positional discipline, and this hurts the shape of the team. As a result, Suarez was isolated again, and when Suarez is isolated, he becomes less effective. His shot total doesn’t go down, but the shots become a little less clinical. Having said that, though, he ran the line pretty well, as always, and never stopped working. But the sooner he gets genuine support up front, the better for both him and the team. Lucas did his usual good job, for what he could do. As we’ll see, Stoke seemed to target the midfield area around Lucas, and with Gerrard being more forward than he should have been, and a largely defensively ineffective Shelvey getting in the way, midfield had a bad day. Downing and Suso did what they could, with Downing being consistent, at least, if not as effective as against Fulham. Overall, though, our system played right into Stoke’s hands.



Stoke’s System –


As we can see above, Stoke’s system was unorthodox in some respects, childish in others, and utterly effective against our own plan in total. There are three parts to how Stoke played that are eye opening. The first one is that they clearly targeted Skrtel. Etherington and Jones playing close to him and either side of him was clearly designed to take advantage of his occasional uncertainty on the ball. With the defensive pairing being so far apart, they knew that they could pressure him, hopefully with the idea that he’d pass to Reina or across to Agger, who would complete the switch across to Enrique, on the side where Stoke were strong in the attack. Win the ball there, and they could instantly transition into their main attack patterns (direct balls from the right back to the target with runners supporting behind or breaking forward). The second thing we notice is that they packed – to the extreme – the midfield area, especially around Lucas. This had two effects – it put our possession under pressure when the ball was in midfield, and gave them good start positions from which to press forward; secondly, it meant when the ball was released to their fullbacks and played long, they already had numbers in tight areas to support and penetrate around Jones, who did a good job of being the target man. It left our fullbacks open in space, but they had to drop back so far to get the ball that they were rendered useless as attacking weapons – Johnson did what he could, but the pressure clearly affected Enrique’s game, and his passing was sloppy as a result. The third thing they did, which was so unconventional in some senses that you could see how it might have flummoxed BR, was to play Shawcross and Huth deep and central in the defensive third. For anyone who has ever coached at the U8 and under level, this was the equivalent of putting your defenders on the 18 yard line even though the game was being played in the other team’s box. This positioning achieved a number of things – firstly, it meant we couldn’t counterattack into space. Huth and Shawcross were never going to stray too far forward. Secondly, this kept Suarez under close supervision, which, combined with the midfield congestion, stunted our attack. Add in the general badness of our technical play and we really weren’t going to bother Stoke over the 90 minutes, despite the great start. Overall, Pulis, for all his critics, played this game perfectly – well drilled, asked questions of the Liverpool players and coaching staff, and clearly had a motivated team doing their jobs well. BR needed to pull something special out of the hat at 2-1 down, and sadly, this is where questions had to be asked.

The Big Questions –

Like Col, I think there are certain things that need to be asked from this game. Firstly, why do we consistently get punished in the large space between the central defenders when there are at least two obvious solutions – tighter central defence, or a back three? Is there a background reason for the lack of solutions to a glaring flaw in our defensive set-up? Secondly, BR has mentioned in interviews that he favours tactical periodization as his methodology, which involves blocks of training and consistent working of the principles of attack and defence that the manager favours; but it’s clear that the defensive principles are not quite solidified. Against Fulham, we pressed in pairs and gave them no time on the ball. Against Stoke, we didn’t really press at all, and allowed Stoke’s fullbacks to play their preferred game. Is the training cycle stuck in the possession phase? Is this a matter of BR realizing he doesn’t have the quality throughout the team to play the possession game naturally, so it has to be trained? Or is there a gap in his methodology? Ian Holloway is another coach who favours possession and pressing, but he apparently doesn’t do much in the way of defensive training cycles. Is BR stuck with the same approach? I think these are important questions to think about, because there is no need to be as inconsistent as we have been. We have a good system of play, the players have shown they are capable of playing it, but they change from game to game in their application. Is it a player problem? Or does it, ultimately, come down to BR’s approach – is it an inflexible methodology, or is he a slave to the players he has at his disposal?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 03:15:14 am by phaseofplay with the box instead of the present »
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Offline Col

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2012, 04:11:00 am »
The rotational training question is an interesting one. When I coach, I sit down before the season starts and split the year up into sections - Pre-season, then generally a month each of defensive structure (individual > unit > team), midfield play (positions, switches, rotations, general possession, off-the-ball, etc), then forward play (link play, wide play, attacking runs, finishing etc). Interspersed with these sessions are reactive sessions based on previous games, and sessions specific to upcoming matches. Following this, I'll evaluate from there and see how we're doing, and where we need to improve.

Any time there's a gap, however, or a free week or two, maybe even just a spare session or half hour here and there, a coach will naturally default back to their favourite topics - the ones they feel will influence most positively their ideal style of play. For some coaches, it's defensive shape. For others, it's counter-attacking patterns. Some will work on set-pieces as often as possible.

Personally, I always fall back into possession play - being as comfortable on the ball as possible. Not enough players, even at the top level, are capable of performing to their maximum levels when under pressure - at least not to the point where it's natural to them. It's vital for a team that looks to play possession football that everybody is 100% comfortable on the ball, but Liverpool are a million miles away from that, and I think Rodgers knows it.

The simple way to put the question is "Why should we work so hard on improving our finishing, when we're not comfortable enough on the ball yet to get into goalscoring positions on a regular basis?". I have no doubt that Brendan Rodgers asks himself this question multiple times each week - it's the natural approach for a possession-based coach to take.

This idea, in theory, is a nice one - but it's an idea that makes a massive assumption; That the team is good enough defensively to win the ball back regularly and quickly enough to allow a possession game to thrive.

This grey area, for me, is where Rodgers has backed himself into somewhat of a corner. To stop focus on possession this early on in his reign and go back to restructuring the defence as was happening during the first month of the season would strike as losing faith in his own philosophy, his own system - and ultimately, the very thing that got him the Liverpool job in the first place.

If he had interviewed for the job and said "I will make us solid, hard to beat, and resilient, and only after that will I get us playing a fluid possession game", then it may have bought him the opportunity to do that without criticism from fans and the mainstream media - but the reality is that had he interviewed in that manner then he likely wouldn't have gotten the job.

Everything about Brendan Rodgers screams "possession, possession, possession", and he's passing on some of the responsibility with regards to the defensive side of the game to the players. The issues that have arisen from this, though, are that the players either aren't good enough, mobile enough, or mentally tough enough to successfully do the dirty work on their own. They may be buying into Rodgers' philosophy, but they're not earning the right within the games to go out and use it.

Until the team as a whole realise that they need to put a shift in each and every game before they even consider doing the fancy stuff with the ball, then Liverpool FC will remain a mid-table team. Brendan Rodgers can either put more focus on this in training, whilst simultaneously not focusing so much on the ballwork side of things, or trust the players to work their arses off and take responsibility for their own performances. I hope we see more of the former than the latter over the coming months, as trusting this group of players to step up and raise their game was one of the decisions that ultimately led to Kenny getting the sack - the players simply aren't up to it.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2012, 05:05:44 am »
The rotational training question is an interesting one. When I coach, I sit down before the season starts and split the year up into sections - Pre-season, then generally a month each of defensive structure (individual > unit > team), midfield play (positions, switches, rotations, general possession, off-the-ball, etc), then forward play (link play, wide play, attacking runs, finishing etc). Interspersed with these sessions are reactive sessions based on previous games, and sessions specific to upcoming matches. Following this, I'll evaluate from there and see how we're doing, and where we need to improve.

Any time there's a gap, however, or a free week or two, maybe even just a spare session or half hour here and there, a coach will naturally default back to their favourite topics - the ones they feel will influence most positively their ideal style of play. For some coaches, it's defensive shape. For others, it's counter-attacking patterns. Some will work on set-pieces as often as possible.

Personally, I always fall back into possession play - being as comfortable on the ball as possible. Not enough players, even at the top level, are capable of performing to their maximum levels when under pressure - at least not to the point where it's natural to them. It's vital for a team that looks to play possession football that everybody is 100% comfortable on the ball, but Liverpool are a million miles away from that, and I think Rodgers knows it.

I think this is a major issue, for sure. But it begs the question of whether BR is working on the principles of Specific Adaptation to Imposed Demands - in other words, is he allowing the players to sink or swim in order to drive home the need for standards when it comes to recruiting players - or is he not willing to adjust things even though a large portion of the team are lacking in the qualities needed to play possession football?

As for the rotational planning - this is one of the things that puzzles me; I made a statement earlier in the season that it takes 6-12 weeks for a team to understand a style of play. I added the caveat, though, that it could take 6 months to a year for a team to perfect the style, though. I stand by that, at least in the case of the possession side of our game. There isn't a player on the team who lumps the ball long out of panic, and every player generally tries to possess their way out of trouble. The problem is that they are not all on the same level in terms of 1v1 skills, acceleration, and ability to play accurate 1-touch passes. So we can get caught in possession at times. The thing that catches my eye is that no adjustments seem to be made for the players who give the ball up the most. Is it possible that we will see the sale of these players, and nobody can be in any doubt as to WHY they had to be sold? Or is BR taking a rose-tinted view that they will "develop" these skills if we keep working on them? Secondly, if some problems keep occurring, the common sense coaching solution would be to temporarily abandon the season plan, and work in a few microcycles that concentrate on these weaknesses and making adjustments to the overall plan. This doesn't seem to be happening, and my big question is "Why?". I'm hoping there's a big picture answer, because the alternatives that I can see are that either BR doesn't see the problems, or he's possibly too proud to change things up?


The simple way to put the question is "Why should we work so hard on improving our finishing, when we're not comfortable enough on the ball yet to get into goalscoring positions on a regular basis?". I have no doubt that Brendan Rodgers asks himself this question multiple times each week - it's the natural approach for a possession-based coach to take.

Personally, I think it's the wrong approach to take for BR if that's what he's doing. My own philosophy is that the game is about goals, and you have to be able to play in the final thirds regardless of how you deal with the middle third - which is something that Stoke do so well. BR is clearly working from the middle to the ends, though, and my feeling is that he will probably try to buy the solutions to the final third problems rather than coach them. It's interesting to me because he's thinking of the game like an ex-midfielder, so I'd be curious to know what position he played in when he played youth football. It probably influences him as much as anything else in how he approaches the preparation

This idea, in theory, is a nice one - but it's an idea that makes a massive assumption; That the team is good enough defensively to win the ball back regularly and quickly enough to allow a possession game to thrive.

This is one of our big weaknesses, I think. Certain players don't transition fast enough, and the first attacker frequently doesn't become the first defender, and we put ourselves under a lot of needless pressure.

This grey area, for me, is where Rodgers has backed himself into somewhat of a corner. To stop focus on possession this early on in his reign and go back to restructuring the defence as was happening during the first month of the season would strike as losing faith in his own philosophy, his own system - and ultimately, the very thing that got him the Liverpool job in the first place.

I'm not sure. If he doesn't have a defensive philosophy that he's willing to work on exclusively, then he doesn't have a complete vision of the game. For sure, he has made statements on how he wants the team to press high, and rest on the ball after, but is this something that gets worked on or is it merely a function of tactical talks - there certainly doesn't seem to be a lot of choreographed pressure, and you still can't see obvious cues for pressing and dropping when we play some games. It is sometimes fairly random, and not what I was expecting at all. In fact, he may have been better served working on the pressing game first, seeing as we had some good possession football last year that we could have left alone while the pressing game was developed. But that's just me.

If he had interviewed for the job and said "I will make us solid, hard to beat, and resilient, and only after that will I get us playing a fluid possession game", then it may have bought him the opportunity to do that without criticism from fans and the mainstream media - but the reality is that had he interviewed in that manner then he likely wouldn't have gotten the job.

Everything about Brendan Rodgers screams "possession, possession, possession", and he's passing on some of the responsibility with regards to the defensive side of the game to the players. The issues that have arisen from this, though, are that the players either aren't good enough, mobile enough, or mentally tough enough to successfully do the dirty work on their own. They may be buying into Rodgers' philosophy, but they're not earning the right within the games to go out and use it.

It's almost a flip side of last year - we left the attacking up to the players, but the defensive side was clearly well-drilled. This seems to be the opposite this year - the players are obviously conscious of what to do with the ball, but defending is rather random at times. Pressing is definitely the defensive strategy, but it is rarely pressing as a unit or a team - it is almost always pressing from position, which leaves us grossly outnumbered when the other team counters at times.

Until the team as a whole realise that they need to put a shift in each and every game before they even consider doing the fancy stuff with the ball, then Liverpool FC will remain a mid-table team. Brendan Rodgers can either put more focus on this in training, whilst simultaneously not focusing so much on the ballwork side of things, or trust the players to work their arses off and take responsibility for their own performances. I hope we see more of the former than the latter over the coming months, as trusting this group of players to step up and raise their game was one of the decisions that ultimately led to Kenny getting the sack - the players simply aren't up to it.
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Offline Garstonite

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2012, 08:21:31 am »
I'll be honest. I'm largely apathetic to that result. Largely down to the inevitability of it all. We haven't picked up so much as a point since Benitez at the Britannia. Phaseofplay has covered the tactical intricacies far better than I ever could, but from my rather plain perspective, I think Rodgers was very naive here. Rafa at Bolton in 2004 naive. I admire the idea of trying to impose our style on others, but as I say- it's naive. I'd have liked to have seen Coates for his ability to contend for the high ball. We played in to Stoke's hands.

I'm also at a loss as to why we couldn't have pressed with the same level of intensity as Stoke. That's application pure and simple and therefore unforgivable.

I said in the Villa Round Table that January can't come quickly enough and a comprehensive victory over a sub-par Fulham side inbetween certainly doesn't change that. There's a hell of a lot of work ahead and I hope this goes down as a valuable lesson learned for Rodgers.

Offline Garstonite

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2012, 08:30:26 am »
I'd also like to add the point that, while Rafa was often criticised for his rotation policy, he did so not just to keep his players fresh, but to also keep his opponents guessing. I know we're limited in our options at the moment, but that's a lesson Rodgers could learn.

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2012, 08:44:26 am »
I still think the biggest thing to show from this match is that our defenders are unable to cope well for 90 minutes with physical strength and intensity - 2 things Stoke have in abundance. We saw it with shipping goals against Everton too, and West Ham and even Villa who simply had a physical forward who we couldn't cope with. It's an interesting point Col that the defence don't get to train against that type of player. Sturridge will change that to a point, he's solid, quick and tall but it will mean sacrificing some training on his and the team's normal style of play to get the defence used to this type of game, because although he has the physical attributes to do it his style of play and the football he's used to are more about possession of the football, skill, trickery and movement.

It could be a blessing in disguise in that it might teach Sturridge to dominate a defence, he has that in his locker but you don't really see it.

I see the midfield issue as fairly simple, Lucas and Allen/Henderson with Gerrard in front playing much the role Sigurdsson played for Swansea at the back end of last season. Gerrard also needs to be rotated more, Henderson has earnt more games than he's got this season and Shelvey (poor though he was yesterday) and Suso can deputise in certain fixtures.
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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2012, 09:00:53 am »
The whole debate boils down to two things at the minute:
1. We *are* currently at mid-table standard.
2. It'll take patience and investment to move up the table.

The degree of patience and investment depends on many things. If we switched to a more solid four line shape of the kind we became used to for so long and sat, say, Henderson in there, we'd maybe become more consistent. But that delays the learning process, because in committing to the system as it stands and letting the players learn what happens when they don't do what they're asked, the path to where we need to be is shorter.

What's obvious is that it's a system that doesn't allow passengers, and if Rodgers can't rely on every player clocking in, then maybe it needs to change. We can't carry Shelvey's erratic form, for example.

I'm still of the opinion that if he doesn't trust Henderson, we need another deep lying midfielder he will trust to do the job properly. That's been true a long time. It seems Sahin isn't that player either.

The talk of budgetary constraint and the 'if I had £140-150m now/that's not my decision' type chat during the fans' Q/A last week indicate that things behind the scenes are set and that it's involved some frank discussion he may not have liked. With that in mind, it all points at the tweak to a Borrell type set up for a while. It'd buy him breathing space.

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2012, 09:06:47 am »
Was crying out for Coates, totally agree with Garstonite btw. Kenny had Stoke sussed. Not many managers do.

Offline Garstonite

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2012, 09:09:06 am »
Sorry Roy, but how are we midtable standard? You could put forward a case to say we've got one of the best goalkeepers in the world, one of the best right-backs, one of the best centre-halves, defensive-midfielders, strikers etc. Something doesn't add up. We're certainly not a worse side than Stoke, West Brom or Everton who are all currently outperforming us.

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2012, 10:28:21 am »
agree with Garsonite we have a decent first 11 its our back up players which are a mid table at best, we should be performing better and Rodgers has to take "some" blame for that.
again last night it was Suarez against stoke, the lad ran his feet into the ground if some of the other players were to put the same effort in we would be in the top 4, as to me it seems we have no plan B am all for giving Rodgers time but if FSG want to see success they will have to back him this moneyball bollocks will need to wait

as for stoke its a tactic every team will now try and replicate against us press us from the start and bully our midfield and you will have joy, how Shelvey lasted the full 90 mins all never know, he was abysmal his pass rate to stoke players must have been up their with allens pass rate to our players at the start of the season he seems to have this "fuck it " attitude where if he makes a mistake or fucks up its ok

one thing though that my chelsea mate noticed had sturridge been playing he would have grabbed a couple goals last night hes a ball greedy bastard who wouldnt have left the box that cross Suarez and downing made sturridge would have been in the 6 yard box tapping it in or at least making the keeper make a a save so maybe he will improve us

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2012, 10:35:36 am »
Sorry Roy, but how are we midtable standard? You could put forward a case to say we've got one of the best goalkeepers in the world, one of the best right-backs, one of the best centre-halves, defensive-midfielders, strikers etc. Something doesn't add up. We're certainly not a worse side than Stoke, West Brom or Everton who are all currently outperforming us.

In terms of consistency I'd say yes mate, but only because we're not looking to contain sides like West Brom have so effectively. The balance is ambitious and the setup is ambitious. It's a paradox innit? We'll obliterate sides when it clicks, we'll look worrisome when it doesn't, and only when the players and coaching are both right will the worrisome stuff go. All that, and the gift wrapped goals we're giving up consistently, adds up to a mid table position. But the solutions are basic ones aren't they? Strikers, work, and concentration.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 10:37:11 am by ho-ho-hendo »

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2012, 10:40:33 am »
Teams in the re-building phase often are characterised by a football schizophrenia,  it's possible for the team to look fantastic one week and garbage the next as strengths and weakness's are worked on that's normal and it requires patience from all,  I sort of expect that and can handle the ups and downs as I had no expectations this season apart from improvement over the course of the season.


I like Rodgers, as I like any manager who has football principals, as long as the aim isn't a Hodgson like regression I'll buy into it. I want a manager who knows where he wants us to end up who has solid ideas how he wants the game played, without that you become merely reactive with no DNA. but the art of football management is not about just repeating your destination but working out how you get there.


I've no doubts over Brendans vision, I'm on board but how tactically do you get there and it's here that he will hopefully will be learning big lessons. Stoke exploited weakness's in our midfield and gaps between our centrebacks, if you don't anticipate it, you need to react to that irrespective of your principals, Coates in the centre was the obvious answer or for us to start causing Stoke problems but that never happened. Bolton for Rafa was a shock but he learnt from it, I'm hoping  last night answers some questions for Brendan about how he gets to put his vision in practice.
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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2012, 10:43:34 am »
I think that says better what I'm trying to say, thanks Albie.

I said the same last night - sticking with this to get it right is ambitious. It's the polar opposite of settling for containing, counter attacking football. It's the only way we'll stand any chance of being anything other than a cup team long-term. We need our own distinctive approach that lets us find value on our own terms.

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2012, 11:08:24 am »
It was a frustrating day out, although not a particularly suprising one. A few things struck me when watching that.

Firstly, I agree with all of the above. It's a learning process, and clearly it's going to be one which takes time. The 'playing away at Stoke on a cold Wednesday night' line is a dreadful cliche, but as with many there's a kernel of truth in it. Stoke are very difficult to play against away from home. They have their own style, it's not pretty, but it is effective. The worst thing about this for me was how easily they made us look inept in defence.

If you play against a team who can ping the ball left and right, have great movement, and walk it through your defence, you can complain but you've been bettered by quality. Stoke don't do that, they hoof it towards Jones and have players around him to collect the second ball. And this worked time and again, most notably for the first goal but in all honesty we looked terrified whenever the ball was in the air in our third. If all teams have to do to cause us real problems is play a big man up top and knock it over our midfield, it's an issue we need to address. Benteke caused us similar problems at Anfield.

Secondly, mistakes. There were a lot of them. For all the criticism of our system (which I'll get to), the number of individual errors yesterday was at a level I can't ever remember seeing. Whether it was slipping (Skrtel and Suso), losing a player at a corner (Agger), giving the ball away repeatedly (Enrique) or in dangerous areas (Gerrard), first touches (Shelvey) or decision making (Shelvey again), few players were exempt. Suarez's repeated attempts to run at players and nutmeg them got annoying too, but I can't move myself to criticise him because in fairness I couldn't see how else we were going to score. Individual errors on that scale must drive a manager round the twist - you prepare for a game all week, careful tactical setup and team choice, then the players look like Bambi on ice, or forget how to pass for 90 minutes, for some inexplicable reason. It undermined everything we were trying to, and cost us. I have no idea what the solution is - whether it is linked to adapting to a new style of play, and will be ironed out in time. But it was painful to watch.

Thirdly, our bench. I don't see much point dwelling on this, as we all know our squad is thin. Trying to come from 2 goals down to beat Stoke, and bringing on Joe Cole and Jordan Henderson (as well as Sterling), is troubling. I don't want to apportion blame at this point, I just hope the situation can be resolved. I like Henderson, and I think he's played well when he's been brought on, often to great effect. But he's not what we were crying out for yesterday, we needed players to create (or take) chances. Henderson's role has been to bring urgency and structure to the midfield, and I wasn't sure how he was going to change the game by replacing Lucas. We looked no more dangerous with him on. Do we have unavaialble players who could change games? Borini, Assaidi perhaps? I think this is clearly an area which we can address in January, and I the evidence suggests we are trying to by looking at Sturridge and Ince.

Finally, the system. I'm wary of exploring this in too great a detail, as better analytical minds than mine have already done so above. It didn't work last night. My concern isn't really that it didn't work - I think it's the right long term solution to develop our own style of play, and I like where we are going. I just worry that we don't have another system than Brendan trusts to do us a job if we need it to. I say this because, although we've played 3 at the back before, we didn't yesterday in a game that was screaming for it. I'm concerned that if something clearly isn't working, Rodgers is inclined to only change the personnel, such is his faith in our style of football. It's admirably determined, but I worry it may be naive. Teams let his Swansea side play, a lot, because they took them lightly. The same won't happen with Liverpool. Teams won't let us play, they will try to play defensive, reactionary football. If they stifle our system, I feel we need to be strong enough to change and adapt to the circumstances of the match. Although I'm prepared to acknowledge that clearly, at least in the short term, Rodgers may be trying to force the system in as hard as possible so that next year we are used to it. It may make a painful remaining 5 months of the season though, at times.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 11:12:28 am by ClausyKopite »

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2012, 12:13:40 pm »
Bump - great to see some rational analysis of a disappointing loss.

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2012, 12:18:59 pm »
You always get a result at Stoke if you come away injury free. Thank fuck for no broken legs!

Onto Loftus road we go!!

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2012, 12:24:24 pm »
After last weeks sublime performance at Anfield followed by serving up a ‘dog’s breakfast’ yesterday, I could quite easily criticize each of the players individually.  However, I thought it best to highlight a snippet from a November 1910 Club Programme which quite honestly, should be republished in our next Programme as the same message to our Management and Players is applicable now.

“Really someone should begin to teach these professionals how to play football.  What is the use of having eleven men in peak condition physically, if they cannot control a football, shoot with some degree of accuracy, and exhibit some idea of outwitting an opponent?  They may be able to run, skip and jump, but we want men that can play football, men that can use their brains when on the field, and show by their actions that their dominating desire is to prove themselves deserving of the name of First League players.  Such shooting as we saw a week ago at Anfield was sufficient to make one gasp with sheer amazement.  Here we have highly paid professionals blundering and bungling, missing opportunities of scoring goals that even a schoolboy would blush to think of not utilizing.”

Amen!
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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2012, 12:31:43 pm »
At the moment I think our style of play isn't that bad we had some good moments but lack of quality and control let us down, and I have noticed this of a long period of time that we have serious trouble and big strong physical players such as Drogba when at Chelsea, Diame at West Ham a couple of weeks ago most of the stoke team kompany and yaya  toure at Man City and there have been others, I would just like to see more belief from the team that no matter the size our skill of the opposition that we won't be dominated.

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2012, 12:37:28 pm »
After last weeks sublime performance at Anfield followed by serving up a ‘dog’s breakfast’ yesterday, I could quite easily criticize each of the players individually.  However, I thought it best to highlight a snippet from a November 1910 Club Programme which quite honestly, should be republished in our next Programme as the same message to our Management and Players is applicable now.

“Really someone should begin to teach these professionals how to play football.  What is the use of having eleven men in peak condition physically, if they cannot control a football, shoot with some degree of accuracy, and exhibit some idea of outwitting an opponent?  They may be able to run, skip and jump, but we want men that can play football, men that can use their brains when on the field, and show by their actions that their dominating desire is to prove themselves deserving of the name of First League players.  Such shooting as we saw a week ago at Anfield was sufficient to make one gasp with sheer amazement.  Here we have highly paid professionals blundering and bungling, missing opportunities of scoring goals that even a schoolboy would blush to think of not utilizing.”

Amen!


did they have programmes way back in 1910 ?   It was another 12 years till the 1st Division Title was secured  :duh

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2012, 12:37:46 pm »
By the time our defence had figured out how to play against Stoke, Stoke had scored three times.
I don't think we did figure out how to play against them all night.  When a team decides to hunt down our back four and stop them playing the ball out of defence we have no answer.  It's an obvious tactic to play against us and why we persist with this strategy under such circumstances as yesterday is beyond me.

We were well and truly out-played, out-thought and out-muscled in the game last night.  We'd be purring if a Liverpool team played the way Stoke did last night and to suggest otherwise would be disingenuous.  I've seen Stoke play anti-football on several occasions but last night was definately not one of them.

Brendan got it very wrong with his starting line up last night and seemed unable to change things.  Maybe he was unwilling to change the formation as he thought we could turn things round but that never looked likely to me.

Gerrard had a shocker - one of those games where he doesn't look very interested.  Johnson was awful.  Enrique and Suarez are the only two to come out of the game with any credit as far as I am concerned.  Shelvey should have been replaced as early as 15 minutes, bring on Coates in a back 3 and try and gain control in the middle with 5 players?  I have no real clue about tactics but I sat watching the game wondering why we didn't try to change things so I'd love to know what was going through Brendan's head.  He looked lost on the touchline and somewhat emotional in his post-match interview.

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« Last Edit: December 27, 2012, 12:39:44 pm by wah00ey »
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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2012, 12:42:57 pm »
After last weeks sublime performance at Anfield followed by serving up a ‘dog’s breakfast’ yesterday, I could quite easily criticize each of the players individually.  However, I thought it best to highlight a snippet from a November 1910 Club Programme which quite honestly, should be republished in our next Programme as the same message to our Management and Players is applicable now.

“Really someone should begin to teach these professionals how to play football.  What is the use of having eleven men in peak condition physically, if they cannot control a football, shoot with some degree of accuracy, and exhibit some idea of outwitting an opponent?  They may be able to run, skip and jump, but we want men that can play football, men that can use their brains when on the field, and show by their actions that their dominating desire is to prove themselves deserving of the name of First League players.  Such shooting as we saw a week ago at Anfield was sufficient to make one gasp with sheer amazement.  Here we have highly paid professionals blundering and bungling, missing opportunities of scoring goals that even a schoolboy would blush to think of not utilizing.”

Amen!


I know it feels like we've been going round and round in circles, but no improvement in 102 years?? Bloody hell. No wonder we've never challenged for anything ;)

Seriously, eerily insightful quote.

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2012, 12:43:37 pm »

My second question is this: "With Jonjo Shelvey and Nuri Sahin unwilling to do the dirty work in midfield, Joe Allen too lightweight and suspect during transitions, and Steven Gerrard both too lazy and positionally slack to bother filling in gaps when we lose the ball, how can we close up the gap in front of the two centre backs and become more effective at winning second balls?"


It's not sexy, it's just crucial in terms of being able to push on and start, you know, winning matches on a consistent basis. The criticism of the midfield players is brutal, but not unfair, I think. Neither Shelvey nor Sahin have any real appetite for winning back the ball, Allen is small, and Our Captain, My Captain does appear to have reached that Defining-the-Club status wherein he doesn't have to do it if he's not bothered, and that unfortunately does include disciplined positional play while defending.

The Stoke match illustrated this concept in clear relief, but we've been far too easy to play through in midfield all year long. The passing lanes in front of the back four are never filled, which puts too much pressure on the defenders to cover each other. With Johnson and Enrique given apparent licence to bomb on down the wings, this becomes a greater tactical difficulty; on occasion, the two holding midfield players are meant to fill in gaps in the zone when the wide defenders have joined the attack and we've lost possession. Lucas does this well, Gerrard does not.

If we're meant to play 4-2-3-1, the two holding players have to be rigidly disciplined to sit in front of the back four and deny space to the opposition forwards and attacking midfield players. Lucas does this in his sleep, although he's not back yet in terms of his mobility. Playing Gerrard alongside Lucas creates rather than solves a problem while defending; Nzonzi kept giving him the run-around with feints and changes of direction.

Short of buying a second holding midfield player in the January window, and I think Brendan feels other priorities more important although I suspect neither you not I agree, Col, playing Allen alongside Lucas appears to be a possible solution. He is disciplined enough and takes good enough care of the ball to get the job done. Where that leaves Gerrard is another question, but as far as fixing the glaring problem, and I would argue that it's at least as important, if not more so, than obtaining a new forward, of a balsa-wood midfield that provides no protection for the back four, playing Allen there will better accomplish the task, lightweight or not...
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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2012, 12:45:56 pm »
I think its all been touched upon above, especially the poster (was it Garstonite) mentioned how effective Raffa's rotation policy was it terms of player freshness and rotation. What worries me is the fact we seem a one system team. You go to Stoke and you know you are in for a battle and a few long balls to be thrown at you.

Personally I thought a fixture such as last night cried out for 3 at the back with wing backs. That in essence shouldnt take that much attacking away from the team seeing as Glen and Jose get forward from their RB and LB slots respectively. Plus you could add to that the fact Agger could, every now and then, bring the ball out and follow play still leaving 2 at the back, one of which a player who seems he could be a commanding ariel presence at the back. The 3 at the back also gives you more stability and security against the long ball. You could have, say, Coates attacking the ball and Agger and Martin going for the 2nd ball/mopping up. Lucas in front of the back 3 and from there fill in the places with what players you feel should be playing. You need players with grit fight and determination for those places. Would you say Downing was one of them? I wouldnt. So you have to look at whats best for the team. Sterling and Allen need rests, yet both were bought on in our last game and Sterling yesterday. Play who you feel can make a difference and then bring them off when they tire. Joe Cole on...come on. If its a shop window thing, perhaps do it when we are winning.

Lessons must be learned from last night. Rafa made mistakes in his first season too. He saw them and tried to rectify them. Its now time for Brenden to do the same. He has tried the 3 at the back in Europe, so he knows how it works. Sometimes its not about imposing your system on the opposition. Sometimes you have to change things and play to your strengths. Nowt wrong with shutting up shop and hitting them on the break.

What do you want, attempted pass and move and 0 points or a dire Christmas affair but coming away with 3 points, or even one? Right now while we are re-building I know what I choose.
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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2012, 12:50:28 pm »
Was crying out for Coates, totally agree with Garstonite btw. Kenny had Stoke sussed. Not many managers do.

Do you reckon his previous encounters with Wimbledon meant meant kenny had an edge over the likes of stoke, Roy?


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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2012, 12:51:38 pm »
It's not like it was an unexpected approach from Stoke's point of view, was it?

No it wasn't and that is the sad point.  Our preparation, line up and tactics were all over the place yesterday

"Will Daniel Sturridge help us improve in both boxes?"

Both?  I'll throw a guess at yes.  He'll score us some goals and his pace will come in handy.  He'll help defensively by taking the pressure off a little.  We'll know that we may be able to concede 1 or 2 and not definitely lose the game.

Is he good enough to not only bag goals when we play at the weekend, but to sufficiently challenge Agger and Skrtel enough during training to help them learn how to deal with big units?

No.  He's no Kenwynne Jones.  Unfortunately I don't think there is any helping Agger and Skrtel here.  Sad to see that Skrtel has been thrown around the pitch when he comes up against anyone physically imposing

My second question is this: "With Jonjo Shelvey and Nuri Sahin unwilling to do the dirty work in midfield, Joe Allen too lightweight and suspect during transitions, and Steven Gerrard both too lazy and positionally slack to bother filling in gaps when we lose the ball, how can we close up the gap in front of the two centre backs and become more effective at winning second balls?"

Is that a fair reflection?  I'd give Allen another go alongside Lucas and push Gerrard to the point of the triangle (so to speak)

Is Jordan Henderson good enough defensively to sit in alongside Lucas and use his dynamism to press the ball? Or, do we need to buy a physical specimen to play in that destructor role alongside Lucas? Should we be looking to have a dual-protector partnership in the middle a la Mikel - Ramires / sometimes play, especially as we're encouraging both full-backs to attack? How do we fill this massive gap?

I think Henderson could do the role.  His best showings for us have been central.

We do need the dual defensive midfield partnership for the reason you state but the whole pressing philosophy needs to be applied so much better

My third question is a classic - "What do we need to do with Steven Gerrard?"

He's got all the class and ability in the world, but his legs have gone. We can't play him how United play Scholes, because he doesn't have the discipline and our fowards don't retain possession well enough. He can't play as a central midfielder next to Lucas - he's NEVER been able to play that role.

My preference would be to move him forwards, on the right-hand-side. He's a much more effective player than all our other "wingers" at the moment - he could use that role to whip balls in from wide, or to drive in and link up with Suarez like he did with Torres so well from that position.


Yes - Gerrard should be used further forward.  Not only is he better in that position than in a deeper role, he is wasted deeper.  Further advanced he can better influence the attack - something that is greatly needed in my opinion

My final, two-fold question is regarding Brendan Rodgers - "What mistakes are we making regularly, and is there evidence that Rodgers and his team are noticing and working on fixing them? Also, is Rodgers' philosophy hindering our short-term progress by trying to implement style over pragmatism at any cost?"

The answer to the latter bit is yes - without doubt.  Unfortunately we need the personnel to play this system and then more capable personnel to put pressure on the players within the team.

The answer to the first bit probably lies within my answer above.  The first team isn't that bad, we're probably a striker and another attacking player away from having a first team that could work Rodgers system effectively.  My worry is that we then need to continue strengthening the squad depth to keep the first teamers on their toes.

We could do this by buying cleverly (not the player!) and getting in players that can play a few positions but the reality is, to get a squad capable of playing 'our' type of football and challenge for the league will take a lot longer to impose without significant investment.

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2012, 01:03:10 pm »
We gifted them three goals yesterday which was disappointing but the most disappointing thing for me was the set up of the midfield. They were giving us oceans of space between the lines yet it was to Jonjo shelvey who really has got worse every game since the game at Young boys in my opinion. I'm actually worried by the lad in that his lack of athleticism for 20 year old is bewildering. He has no acceleration from a standing start so can't drive through an opposition midfield but he fails to reach routine passes an when he does his touch lets him down. Lucas yesterday played a wonderful through ball to him an his touch let him down but he struggled to reach a pass that seemed to be weighted perfectly. He doesn't strike me as a number 10 either as he's so direct an lackadaisical with his passing it stops us building our attacks.

So what is his best position? He doesn't have the tactical nous nor the engine to play central midfield and he doesn't have the touch nor athleticism to play as an attacking midfielder. Its a shame as he does seem to talented but there is something off about him at the moment.

Suso for me unfairly got the hook yesterday as he did create that one good chance and seemed to be able to play through the stoke pressing as he has a better sense of balance and lower sense of gravity. I think we'd have done better in an attacking sense to exploit the space stoke were giving between the lines.

I think Brendans in game management let him down on this occasion. It seemed like he was going for the same substitutions that he used against west ham however it didn't work this time. 

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2012, 01:04:31 pm »
Rodgers has a choice.  He can either get the pain out of the way now in the form of tough learning and perhaps weeding out the weak players i.e. those that are not built for this system or he adapts his approach for the short term.  In all honesty, we don't know what he is thinking or what his short-term plan is.  I'd say he is brave and most certainly has the backing of the owners and the players to play in this way when alternatives would yield points. 

I actually believe a season of experimentation may not be a bad thing.  Innovation is not the child of the cautious.

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2012, 01:05:26 pm »
Do you reckon his previous encounters with Wimbledon meant meant kenny had an edge over the likes of stoke, Roy?


Rodgers has faced Stoke before.  He knows what they are about.

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2012, 01:07:36 pm »
May I just say that the first three posts of this thread are amongst the best analysis of a game that I have had the privilege of reading. Thank you for taking the time.

It's clear to me that we were upset by a tactically clever and very astute game plan from Pulis. We had no answers. This is part of the learning curve for both manager and players, and will happen as we try to build for a future where we can be more adaptive. My concerns are rooted on whether Brendan will learn from these setbacks, not that he makes the mistakes. I hope he is not too proud to make the changes necessary - and as fans, we can only contribute to our team's success by giving our support so he feels able to change where necessary. We were not so good at that support for Rafa, a man completely at ease with tactical mastery, unafraid to play grindingly dull football where necessary, or to open up into beauty when possible. Brendan hasn't yet got that experience, and may settle into stubbornness if he fears fans' reactions.

phaseofplay puts the dilemma for Rodgers very well - how to balance the long development of his vision with the mistakes that will inevitably bring, alongside the defensive demands, all with a set of players that is not yet the finished article. Far from being suicidal, I find this time in our history fascinating - I have to believe we are witnessing the terrible growing pains of a new dynasty. There are no easy solutions, no easy ways to the top (save perhaps The Billionaire's Plaything model, and even City/Chelsea took some time to find success, or indeed keep it). We have faith, or we give up. I prefer to watch and hope, and with the help of excellent writers like those in this thread, learn something.

I'm really grateful lads, thank you.
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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2012, 01:12:54 pm »
Great analysis so far

My questions are about us without the ball - especially against the counter attack
Lucas coming back doesn't seem to have helped the problem so it looks systemic
We're making very poor teams look terrifying when they come forward especially
on the break. There's a huge amount of space not only in front of the back four but especially behind the fullbacks
This has been a problem all year and there's no way we can progress until we stop shipping goals and get some organization and pressing in the team when we don't have possession

One last thing I don't understand the idea that our centre halves need a big lad to train against to get good at dealing with big lads. We're talking about 2 highly paid , supposedly highly coveted, veteran international centre halves - why can't they deal with this type of player already? And if they can't why are they in the team when we play against them??

Offline didi shamone

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2012, 01:24:45 pm »
The nightmare after Christmas. Kind of expected to lose this but was hoping it would be one of those mad games where everything went our way. Looked like it would with the early peno too, but just like the Merseyside derby, we didn't capitalise on our early gift.

It's the first match this season where we were poor and got outplayed for the entire 90 minutes. At no point did I feel we were going to get back into it. As the match went on I felt Stoke were more likely to score a 4th than us a 2nd.

Our defence was poor again and I have to believe this is a systemic fault. Revisionists in the Agger- Skertl thread are now telling us they were always poor. Get a fucking grip. It reminds me of the way the Enrique thread went last year.The whole''I told ya he was shite'' brigade. We have a back four who are all quality players. They should be capable of defending well like they did most of last season.

Midfield is my bugbear all season and we have yet to see a cohesive and settled unit. One player from three performing at a decent level is just not good enough. Every man and his dog has been saying here that Shelvey and Gerrard shouldn't play in the same midfield. It's blindingly obvious. On current form neither should be playing there at all in my opinion. Henderson is not getting a fair crack under Rodgers. We keep hearing about Shelveys goal threat but I'm not seeing it. In fact Henderson looks like more of a goal threat at the moment and he's not exactly a rival for fat Frank.  Gerrard for front three for me. I say that every week. I'm starting to bore myself now. But had we Henderson and Allen in midfield, our front three of Gerrard, Suarez and downing would be more daunting for Stoke than poor little Suso. I believe the chap can make a great player, but it's debateable whether he shouldeeven be in the first team squad right now.

Would we have lost anyway? possibly but if we played them ten times with the same team as last night I doubt we'd win one.

QPR is looking like a must win now. We're in no danger of relegation as some chicken lickens are suggesting but our league position is horrible. Kenny got the sack for finishing 8th and I find it strange that's now an acceptable target. We need to aspire to more surely. Calling for the managers head at this stage is madness. We're not Blackburn, although I suspect our owners aren't much more clued in than Venkeys when it comes to football matters.

Offline Red4Life1978

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2012, 01:29:57 pm »
Too much good analysis for me to add anything else but there is one general point to make.

When you defend a corner surely the main objective is to not concede a goal - why then do we and many other clubs not have men on both posts? They save so many goals and soft ones at that all season long.

You could say Johnson was back on post for their second goal but he didn't start there and by moving back to cover post his weight was on his heels and couldn't stop ball going in - a man starting on the post can have his weight going forwards and is more effective at clearing ball away.

Just seems silly to have everyone back and to not be defending your goal as well as you could. It is a modern trend and one i can't understand!

Another bugbear at corners is bringing everyone back - so when you clear it,unless it goes out of play it goes straight to the opposition who can load it back in the box unopposed - thus you defend twice when you could have defended just once by having a player upfront who could either collect the ball directly, block the opposition cross or at very least pressurize player putting it back into box so his ball may not be so pinpoint accurate.
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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2012, 01:46:36 pm »
It will sound strange i'm sure but the positive to be found here is that it was defensive errors that lost us the game yesterday, i watched as the throw in was about to be taken - everybody in Stoke, Liverpool, England the world.... knew exactly what was coming, a lumped throw in to Jones to win and flick onwards, luring any Stoke player closer to our goal.

The shock was watching Skrtel taking two or three paces back and allowing Jones to dominate the space... Now we can forgive players for competing and losing a battle, but to allow Jones free reign of the space in which he desired is just not acceptable, alarm bells should have been ringing in Martins ears as the ball came in and he should have been standing his ground looking to give their big man a difficult control.

But - here it is for me, that in itself whilst poor is a positive, and something you would expect to be worked on, it's not rocket science its just exceptionally poor application from a seasoned pro and exceptionally lazy, he didn't have the stomach for the fight.... that in a defender is criminal.

Agger to looked out of sorts yesterday, we all know how exceptional he is on the deck, the big physical boys generally are not his forte - he didn't hide, but did look at times flustered under the pressure.

We keep making defensive errors, our belly is exposed on a regular basis, the basics aren't in place and this really needs addressing sooner rather than later what with being so toothless upfront. You can play an attacking brand of football, but also have a good solid unit at the back. That currently we do not have. Oh how we needed a Hyppia yesterday to lead our backline not only in stature but calmness.
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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2012, 01:47:07 pm »
We lost the match with the team selection before the game. Rodgers thought just because one team beat a dreadful Fulham on Saturday then the same team and tactics would be good enough to beat Stoke. You have to be more pragmatic than that. No two matches are the same when you play home then away.

The Suso situation is ridiculous. 1) he was one of our best players in that first half (if only by default) 2) why is he always dragged off at half time or early in the second half every time he starts? Why even start him at all? He's the easy scapegoat for Rodgers, no matter how he performs. He hasn't got the balls to take off a senior player early in the game so uses the kid if he needs to make a change. Stoke away wasn't the game for him anyway, I said in the pre-match thread he'll be substituted early, so why's he starting him?
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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2012, 02:03:28 pm »
Too much good analysis for me to add anything else but there is one general point to make.

When you defend a corner surely the main objective is to not concede a goal - why then do we and many other clubs not have men on both posts? They save so many goals and soft ones at that all season long.

You could say Johnson was back on post for their second goal but he didn't start there and by moving back to cover post his weight was on his heels and couldn't stop ball going in - a man starting on the post can have his weight going forwards and is more effective at clearing ball away.

Just seems silly to have everyone back and to not be defending your goal as well as you could. It is a modern trend and one i can't understand!

Another bugbear at corners is bringing everyone back - so when you clear it,unless it goes out of play it goes straight to the opposition who can load it back in the box unopposed - thus you defend twice when you could have defended just once by having a player upfront who could either collect the ball directly, block the opposition cross or at very least pressurize player putting it back into box so his ball may not be so pinpoint accurate.



Completely agree. There is much very good tactical analysis on this thread which explains a lot about why we were so poor for large parts of the game yesterday.

That said - we patently failed to deal with 3 defensive situations that the majority of lower league centre halves would have coped with comfortably.
It concerns me that when we are put up against any sort of pressure we fold. Happened against West Ham (all be it we got ourselves back in it), Villa then again last night.

Irrespective of our attacking options we shoudnt have conceded any of those goals last night and I doubt even United, City or Chelsea would have come away with anything from the Brittannia if they defended the same way.

Offline Not funny reecehenebry

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2012, 02:04:12 pm »
The whole debate boils down to two things at the minute:
1. We *are* currently at mid-table standard.
2. It'll take patience and investment to move up the table.

The degree of patience and investment depends on many things. If we switched to a more solid four line shape of the kind we became used to for so long and sat, say, Henderson in there, we'd maybe become more consistent. But that delays the learning process, because in committing to the system as it stands and letting the players learn what happens when they don't do what they're asked, the path to where we need to be is shorter.

What's obvious is that it's a system that doesn't allow passengers, and if Rodgers can't rely on every player clocking in, then maybe it needs to change. We can't carry Shelvey's erratic form, for example.

I'm still of the opinion that if he doesn't trust Henderson, we need another deep lying midfielder he will trust to do the job properly. That's been true a long time. It seems Sahin isn't that player either.

The talk of budgetary constraint and the 'if I had £140-150m now/that's not my decision' type chat during the fans' Q/A last week indicate that things behind the scenes are set and that it's involved some frank discussion he may not have liked. With that in mind, it all points at the tweak to a Borrell type set up for a while. It'd buy him breathing space.
There is an argument Roy that Brendan is being too hasty in wanting to get the team to play his way. Would it not be far more patient to  allow the players to adapt slowly over three-four years, all the time adapting the team to next weeks challenge? Is he asking too much too soon?
I was happy to think that Rafa and Ged would take 5/6 years before they hit the team they needed, and waited while they improved slowly but with clear purpose. I would be happy to think the same with Brendan. Maybe he needs to relax his long term views a bit, extend them over a longer time period and ensure he is there to do the job then. After all without results, he will be removed.
Why are you looking past this season?

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2012, 02:07:00 pm »
We have a hell of a lot of people basing things on the massive assumption that Rodgers system actually works at the level we want to be at. As I said before the game Rodgers system couldn't ask for anything better than playing a big lumbering limited team over the busy Xmas period. Stoke should be ready made for Rodgers system, we should of been able to keep the ball move them around and then win comfortably when they tire. For me it's not about getting in players that suit the system it's about the system only working if teams play like Norwich or Fulham did where they let us make the pitch as big as possible, press in a half arsed way and let us pass through them.

Rodgers system has more holes than a Swiss cheese, work hard and press us high up the pitch or drop off and sucker punch us and we have no answers. We are mid table and Swansea were mid table with players with vastly different abilities to me that hints at the system being mid table. We give away too much with the system we have no element of surprise no tactical variety and no plan B. Teams know how we will setup, how we will try and play and how to stop it. We are playing at a massive advantage. Do we need better players or have we reached the glass ceiling on a system that means we attack packed defences whilst they attack two centre backs one on each side of the pitch with alarming regularity.

We need pace and power right through the middle of our team not more lightweights like Sturridge and Ince until we strengthen the spine teams will continue to roll us over. This time last year Kenny wanted Diame and Jelavic to bolster a team with the best defensive record in the League and a team that was missing chances for fun and hitting the woodwork the way an alcoholic hits the bottle.

How the hell have we regressed so far in such a short time.
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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2012, 02:15:03 pm »
On the Sturridge question Im hoping he will help us just by being a player with movement and being unpredictable.   The main thing will be actually having a player getting into the opponents area .  Theres times at the minute when we get in good positions only to have very few options in the form of runners into the box.  I know rodgers touched on him trying to improve this in the recent fans interview.

Offline The G in Gerrard

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Re: That's the annual abomination away at Stoke over with, then - Round Table
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2012, 02:18:28 pm »
The OP is abit harsh on Suso imo. Though his pass in first half to create for Suarez was fantastic.