Author Topic: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1  (Read 22801 times)

Offline Corkboy

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Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« on: September 21, 2014, 12:16:00 am »
O Rawkites, how my heart grows weary!

Not far from the old folks at home but far from where we should be. Played 5 Won 2 Lost 3. Tenth above a slew of clubs with a game in hand.

And to the latest instalment of "How we got where we are". Folks, we did not start brightly. Twice in the first five minutes, Lucas had to bail out Gerrard. We conceded a goal which must sure have had Fat Sam leaking baby batter in his too tight trousers, a wonder of Position Of Maximum Opportunity, two centre halves and a fucking hoof to the back stick. I got a little sick in my mouth. For their second, I still wonder about how the finish didn't actually matter because they had another bloke waiting under the cross/shot. We could have let in four, we were all over the shop.

Credit the manager, he acted and we went to a curious sort of back three which let in no more goals until the last minutes but by that point, West Ham had developed a practical streak. It was still quite alarming to see them burst at pace through an often vacant midfield but they were never under too much strain from us, no matter how many Southampton players we threw at them. A Villa'esque defensive performance.

To the Excuses! We have just got back to European glory, it was a big deal having a midweek CL game, teams always suffer after those ties. We have new players settling in, it's too much to expect at this early stage. The 'Ammers got lucky and held out for a win. We have an injury crisis. The Scots turned down Freedom.

Your OP is not a happy bunny. We're playing like a team that got found out, and the happy clappy feelings after the Spurs game are receding quickly.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 12:17:53 am by Corkboy »

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2014, 10:00:23 am »
You say credit to the manager for changing things up, but it amounted to little more than shutting the stable door once the horse had bolted.

Rodgers' biggest issue with the performance post game was that we lacked 'intensity', well having seen the line up he assembled before kick off what did he think was going to happen?

We had a 34 year old Gerrard playing his 3rd game in 7 days, Henderson who's playing every single minute of football anyone can throw his way (I know he's a fit young lad but still, its every single minute), Lucas Leiva who can't run and has no on pitch relationship with pretty much anyone, Fabio Borini who's 'intensity' seems to manifest itself in him running all over the place, affecting nothing, Balotelli who although I think he was one of the very few to play alright is hardly one to set the tone and carry much intensity to his play. And finally possibly the least 'intense' goalkeeper since Tony Warner.

This was not a team set up to go off like a bottle rocket.

West Ham saw us coming from a mile away, they were rubbing their hands together at the thought of playing us after a Champions League game and fully exploited our sluggish start to the game. West Ham did to us what we were doing to everyone the back end of last season. They had a week to prepare, a week to plan and a week to suss us out. Which they did.

They outfought, out played, out thought and fundamentally out classed us yesterday. Targeting our tired legs and our defensive frailties to crosses in to the box. Allardyce clearly had his back up after the games and comments in the wake of our victories last season and was out for revenge, he got it and then some.

I find it hard to go too deep in to the actual performance because it was just that bad. But I will say that Rodgers needs to figure out quickly that Lucas and Gerrard should not be on the same pitch at the same time ever again.

Lucas cannot play that role ahead of Gerrard, at all. He can't play alongside him in a double pivot, at all. So if he's going to play it has to be lieu of Gerrard being there, at all.

Skrtel I can barely even muster the energy to discuss anymore, same with Rodgers' determination to rotate our back line. None of the CBs are playing well, hardly any defender at the club has improved in Rodgers' time here with the exception of Flanno. Its starting to become less of an inconvenience and instead is developing in to a much more serious, club/team defining problem.

Its alright being terrible at the back when you've got Suarez scoring 31 goals and Sturridge adding 21 of his own, but when you remove one of those permanently and the other fleetingly then those defensive frailties get exposed for the joke that they are.

This is a negative post, but it was a massively negative game. It has to be said that its very early doors still, we've got a long way to go before we look like a proper functioning team from top to bottom again but to be honest. We should have all expected it to be this way however, last season is gone, Suarez is gone, we're a team in transition again.

Rodgers has pulled us through before and Ive little doubt he will again. A lot of this is new to him too. The 3 games a week, the rotation, the European football, a team without Suarez. He's got a lot of figuring out to do.

Our season might depend on how quickly he's able to put all of the pieces together again, but Ive absolute faith in him to get there in the end regardless of the timescale.

And speaking of timescale. can someone please check on Victor Valdes' knee?
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 10:02:04 am by Cpt_Reina »

Offline John C

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2014, 01:13:04 pm »
I think our display against Southampton & Villa were worse. Besides them being dirty twats at times West Ham unfortunately played as well as I've seen them for years, I can't stand Allardyce but credit to him for how he set his team up and managed the game. He was lucky a couple of his players were't sent off though.

Personally, and not with hindsight I'd have preferred Lallana in for Borini - in that game, away from home. He simply didn't offer enough to justify his selection which permitted WHU to dominate the first half. If Borini squares the ball to Moreno who had an open goal it's 2-2 and game on for us. Instead we lost to a good goal, a fantastic goal and a sucker goal on the counter. Technically we lacked what BR expects but he can work on that because he's got good players and he called them all "honest" which clearly means they're receptive to his ideas and want to work hard. We missed Sturridge's capabilities, again and we need to re-think how we set up the midfield but it's not crisis time by any means.

The defence wasn't perfect but neither was it the shambles people would have you believe.

Big shout and mention to Balloteli, I haven't got a clue how he kept his composure when Adrián was kneeled over his aggressively. Not many blokes would not have reacted instinctively - good on the lad.

Offline Red Genius

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2014, 02:47:05 pm »
I wrote this shortly after the game yesterday;

Where to begin well first of all;

Approach - Our players looked like they had just been woken up in the middle of the night dazed and confused at a boot camp asked to put their boots on and go out and play, most of the 50/50's in the first half were eaten up by West Ham, they looked sharper and more composed and determined.

Set up - I think we were all in agreement we wanted two up top and our diamond was an agreed way to shape it, you have to give West Ham credit they got their tic tacs spot on, they pressed our full backs right back and with little width they had no out balls, Downing on Stevie gave us no play making through the centre so we got penned in our own half and quickly resorted to lumps up top where invariably West Ham would win the ball and recirculate their next attack.

Set pieces - This can no longer be ignored, my interpretation is the 'big lads' are zonal marking and the smaller ones tracking runners, which means they get beaten in the air / loose their man, this *has* to be addressed, it's simply not working. It is a systematic and training error that requires attention

Midfield through Attack - Well we didn't get to see much of this until the second half! As we'd be out thought and out competed in the first, when the team changed shape we at least began to bring the ball into the final third, however this continual play it out wide and breach the wide areas of the box and throwing crosses in is in complete contradiction to what we did so well last year where we'd speed up the play and interchange one twos around the box and thread somebody through, why has the approach changed? That would be my first question.

Lots of things to be worked on, but we have to be sharper, hungrier - we have to get back to moving the ball quicker between phases 2 and 3 with good movement and fast passes. The boss has to find a way to engineer something different as an alternative to the diamond that produces and we have to get back to finding outlets quickly when pressed so we can hit the opposition on the break.

Naturally i'm disappointed but its not the end of the world, but lots to be worked on.
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Offline Severely

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2014, 03:13:02 pm »
For me, the big problem of the last few games has been in midfield - more so than the defence. There are several reasons for this, first and foremost being Gerrard's inability to play three games in seven days. It's simply not possible any more. He wasn't just a passenger, he was entirely absent. West Ham drove through the middle of our team like a finger into custard, and whenever Gerrard had the ball, Downing was on him so quickly, all he seemed to do was pass the ball back to one of Skrtel, Lovren or Sakho. If the midfield was doing nothing in a defensive sense, you'd expect them to at least create some attacking opportunities, but they didn't do that either. Because no one made themselves available for a pass in midfield until Lallana replaced Lucas, you saw our defence just hoof it aimlessly towards Borini, Sterling or Balotelli, who were themselves then isolated and unable to do anything because - you guessed it - our midfield didn't do a thing to either help relieve pressure or create space. That first half was an absolute horror show, reminiscent of Crystal Palace last season except here, we threw away the game within 10 minutes.

However, with that said, it's not the end of the world. Rodgers needs to sort out this midfield and defence problem fast, because we're not going to be allowed any more slip-ups if we want to be competitive this season. The notion that Lucas and Gerrard can play together has to be bundled up, fixed with cement galoshes and drowned in the deepest, darkest river because they should never, ever share that much time on a football pitch again. The weird thing is, it seems that many of these problems could be averted simply by playing Lucas in that deeper position and resting Gerrard on occasion - especially given that we don't have either Allen or Can available.

But Lallana looks like he can be that goalscoring midfielder to play alongside Henderson, Sterling and Balotelli looked like they were doing all the right things and we do have one hell of an injury list at the moment. There was always going to be an issue bedding in so many signings at once, and as PoP has pointed out previously, Rodgers' training methods means that we, as a team, will never hit full steam until a couple of months into the season. Hopefully, this will be the lowest point of the season, and we can push on from here and never take another glance back. We have to remember that we're only five games into the season. Last season, City and Chelsea started poorly as well, while Arsenal were a class above everyone else. Remember how that season finished?
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Offline Gegenpresser

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2014, 03:30:09 pm »
The origin of the problems with our defence can be traced back to December 1st, 2011. That was the evening that Lucas did his ACL over the course of an otherwise heartening victory over Chelsea at Stamford Bridge. In the days that followed, Kenny assured us that we could manage without him, Jonjo Shelvey was recalled from Blackpool and we promptly began that nightmarish form spiral with a 1-0 loss at Fulham.

Almost three years later, the problem remains the same. We look fantastic in the big matches where we have the luxury of standing off and staying compact, but when we're asked to play an expansive game to break down even the most pedestrian band of cloggers, our defence suddenly turns into a farce. With the more savvy managers (Mourinho, Pellegrini) now realising that they can beat us by playing like a fearsomely upgraded League One side, we can only hope that the idealists (Wenger, Martinez, Pochettino) won't follow suit.

Agger, Carragher, Skrtel, Toure, Sakho, Lovren... the names don't matter. They are or were all quality international defenders who I think could do a job at any other top club in Europe. After so much expenditure, it seems ridiculous to continue blaming the central defenders. There's the matter of the goalkeeper as well, but having gone between stylistic opposites in Reina and Mignolet (and with Valdes, presumably, back again), I have little confidence that changes there will address the deeper structural issues that face our side. It worries me that the focus of analysis seems to fall so heavily on the idea of individual errors, as if our international defenders were inexplicably being reduced to U12 players, as opposed to the idea that the balance of the team being played is creating the sort of defensive dilemmas where the right answer ceases to be obvious to the experienced defender.

The fact remains that if we don't play a midfield with the mobility, energy and aggression (or as Rodgers called it, "intensity") to compensate for the space we need to create to pick open the West Hams and Aston Villas of the league, we will continue to leak farcical goals by asking our defenders to do the impossible. Of course, the injuries to Allen and Can made things worse, but then, do they really provide enough balance to tip the equation in our favour? Looking at results when we were at the height of our powers last season, six goals conceded against the three worst teams in the Premier League during our title run-in would suggest otherwise. Should we be surprised if we were to again concede 3 to Cardiff (now, 16th in the Championship) or 2 to Fulham (now appearing dead certain for League One)?

Exacerbating matters is the fact that Spain's back-to-back demolitions at the World Cup provided the blueprint for negating the so-called "Busquets role." Deploy a quick and energetic midfielder to track the opposition's controller and, suddenly, they're left hoofing long balls to the wingbacks. For us, this means the entire structure of our midfield has been called into question. From a defensive standpoint, the personnel deployed simply lack the qualities to do the work necessary, and from an attacking standpoint, old solutions have suddenly become stale.

With all that said, I don't think the situation is that dire. Unlike last year, we have options that will allow us to experiment, and with the depth and talent available in attack, a mere step from "farcical" to "workmanlike" in defence should make us a very difficult team to beat. And if we really do address the midfield issue, the potential is there for something even better than that.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 03:34:16 pm by Gegenpresser »

Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2014, 03:33:45 pm »
Hello Roundtable. 

As I am writing this, the bastards from the east are getting beat 5-3, and making this weekend from a football perspective a hellava lot more tolerable.

Unfortunately, I am not any less aggrieved today than yesterday.  So many areas of the pitch to be concerned about after one performance.   I suspect I am dwelling on them rather than trusting that they will get sorted out (kind of like how I felt after Hull City game last season).  However, I do wonder if we might come up with some agreed upon notions as LFC's true nature unfolds this season.  Here are a few I offer:

Avoid defeatist comments by invoking El Pistolero.  See any comment by Obi-Wan on the subject.  He says it much better than I.

Giving credit where credit is due
    Example #1:  West Ham came out on the front foot and we did not meet the physical or psychological energy until 20 minutes in
    Example #2:  Moreno deserves credit for tracking back and preventing a sure goal on back heal/yellow card play (Post-Jovetic Goal)
    Example #3:  Rodgers was stuck with his midfield options and he fixed the game after 20 minutes and at halftime.
    Example #4:  The first 20 minutes of the second half, LFC looked like a top 4 team responding to adversity, performance got better
    Example #5:  While Lovren is culpable for errors, he might have played 60 minutes with a concussion (self-sacrifice)

This defensive coach nonsense needs to stop.

Goal #1: Henderson & Lovren (individual desire and communication)
Goal #2: Transition (closing down the shot on Moreno, Mignolet in no-man's land looking impotent)
               *** by the way the far post runner for WHU was on too and would have scored if it hadn't gone in
              *** This about tracking, marking, closing down space, and communicating
Goal #3:  Poor clearance (Sakho) plus getting stretched searching for equalizer (Gerrard's space exploited) -- Sktrel's late

Part of issues in the defensive third have to do with continuity, language-communication, organization, and preference in handling pressure (stepping or falling off).   While anyone with a pair of eyes can tell we are disjointed (see Sakho barging into Lovren yesterday), our defensive struggles arise from a couple issues that are functions of how we play and how the EPL has adjusted to how we play.

A) When we do not dominate the ball or at least are not able to string together some passes, we are particularly susceptible to give up gaps in a pressing system.  Midfielders pressuring opponents can give up the space behind them.  This means our defenders have to step to compress this space.  If our middies are not holding the ball, there is more work to be done (back and forth) even before the actual group or 1 vs. 1 defending occurs.  As a result, when we hold the ball, our defense is working.

B) Teams that get a quick one on us (like our strategy last year) have the ability to do three problematic things which we have not yet solved how to do on a large scale (this puts more pressure on our defenders to find passing lanes centrally).
         
      1) Clog up or mark Gerrard out of the game by preventing service
      2) Sit back in a block of 8 in the final third and use physical aggression to negate LFC's talent or clog up midfield (no incentive to play)
      3) Develop our patterns of play in the final third that are most productive (a lot of chefs in the kitchen) - roles need to develop

C) We have young, energetic, productive and inexperienced marking backs who love to get forward --- our shape will be influenced by this

In the end, our journey is not over after 5 games.  We are inconsistent.  This will change and we always respond to adversity well.  Maybe if we put away the past, stay positive, give credit where it is due, and focus on this process and getting some organization, continuity and more healthy, we will see more performances like White Hart Lane and less of them like yesterday.

YNWA
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 11:53:40 pm by Trendisnotdestiny »
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Offline LondonRapLondon

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2014, 04:32:36 pm »
I thought West Ham set up well and executed their plan well.

There's is a small pitch and having 3 mobile players in Noble, Kouate and Song was always going to be a tough match for our 3 - especially with SG and Henderson playing 3 games in 7 days. The reality is, Allen and/or Can would have been handy for us in this game.

The lack of chances and penetration through the middle was evident in the Villa game. So too against West Ham. Having Downing to sit on SG worked well for them making it difficult for us to get Balotelli and Sterling enough of the ball in danger areas.


 I think a midfield with Lucas and SG is not mobile enough. Allen will be back shortly and Lalana will be up to match speed soon. SG does need rotation too. I suspect if Can was available SG would not have played 3 games in 7 days.


For me the defensive mistakes are of individual errors or due to a lack of chemistry so I am hopeful they will be ironed out soon. We really need Sturrdige's penetrative running off the ball which will give our midfield a forward option rather than the sideways passes (players like Henderson were forced into).

Credit to the opposition. There midfield 3 were dynamic and did stifle us - they looked much more mobile than us and had us over run a few times.  I think Sam got his tactics right. Brendan did respond well but it was too late due to the early goals. Good finish by their Sakho - good player.

Will be surprised if they end up in a relegation fight. We won;t be the only CL contenders to drop points there this season.

Offline Red Bird

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2014, 05:05:35 pm »
Good points, Trendisnotdestiny.

I still think the post-mortem on these boards is cutting the defenders, too much slack. Once it becomes obvious that Gerrard had a man sitting on top of him and unavailable, there are a number of options available. One is for the centre-halves to advance with the ball and provide an advanced outlet. The biggest problem we had was that the quality of the pass into the final third was ordinary. I remember with 10 minutes to go, and sitting West Ham deep, the buggers were passing the ball sideways between themselves as if we were protecting a lead  :no And I still can't figure out why our players, the centre-halves especially, are unable to receive a pass under pressure, control and do something with the ball. Nor why they can't be aware of who else in a Liverpool shirt or otherwise is where around them. At the moment, they are not looking an upgrade on what we had at this stage last season (remember grinding out 1-0 results with even Kolo Touré spelling at the back?).

There were some positives from the game, however. Sterling, Balotelli and Moreno were good. Lallana wasn't bad either, for somebody coming back from injury. Borini has good movement but his decision-making could be better at this level. But he's also coming back from a period of inactivity. The second half performance, probably because West Ham was protecting the lead and waiting for the inevitable brain fart, was encouraging with a bit more purpose. If we could move the ball quicker and more purposefully ...

Offline redmark

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2014, 05:25:55 pm »
A third dreadful performance in a week. Not sure I'd agree with John that it was the best of the three, but I guess that's rather like discussing what sort of torture you'd prefer to suffer.

I took a warning last night, for an obviously very mature and frustrated attack on a few posters in the post match thread (for which I apologise to the mods, if not (all) of the recipients). But the lazy, predetermined, superficial analysis is maddening. Another bad performance? Blame whichever area of the team you've already decided isn't upto scratch. Blame Mignolet's lack of command of his area, though he came for a number of crosses very well yesterday. Blame Skrtel/Lovren/Sakho, depending on which you don't want to see in a partnership, whether it really fits the game as a whole, or not (you can always find an individual moment to highlight and extrapolate to fit a perception). Blame Gerrard, for not having the legs/defensive nous/intelligence, to do whatever it is you (not the manager) thinks is supposed to be his remit. Blame Lucas's lack of mobility and quality on the ball, though Henderson did little either (playing 'whack a mole', in Donkey Wan's phrase). Blame Borini's lack of impact, while excusing Balotelli's due to lack of service.

Ah, Gerrard. That's the source of my warning. I responded to a poster a few days ago, who complained that Gerrard needs replacing with someone who can "press and cover". What, both? At the same time? Are you sure you know what you're talking about? While a few bemoaning Rodgers' tactical ability have crept out of the woodwork in recent days, most such critics appear to be sticking to the 'undroppable' excuse. Gerrard isn't doing what the poster expects a player in that position to be doing; therefore (as they don't yet accuse the manager of being inept), he can't be doing what the manager expects, either. Therefore he must continue to be selected purely because he's undroppable.

No allowance made for the possibility that he is, infact, performing the role the manager wants. Not very well at the moment, granted. But every discussion about the lack of protection from midfield is directed at Gerrard. He's apparently supposed to press, cover, intercept, fill gaps, tackle and track runners. All, contradictorily, at the same time in the same role! No allowance is made for the lack of meaningful defensive contribution coming from other personnel in the midfield; notably Henderson's shift from hard working press, to headless chicken act; or (in previous games) Coutinho's occasional defensive efforts. Again - he's not playing well. His passing range is off (was it early last season too?); lacks a touch of power and spin on the long balls. The system lacks dynamism; exchanging 5 yard passes with the centre backs isn't doing a great deal.

But the root cause of that problem, surely, is the root of several others - we lack movement, and pace, and cohesion further forward. Is there a real problem there (have we been 'found out'?), or do we just need to 'settle', to get Sturridge back, to get Coutinho/Sterling/Lallana sharp and on form?

Oh, and hopefully (though unlikely) this game will put to bed the idea that we can ONLY play the diamond effectively. Because we were shit in that shape, too.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 05:58:39 pm by redmark »
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Offline Robotforaday

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2014, 05:45:23 pm »
If you get in a right back to upgrade or least compete with one who's seen as a liability (JM for GJ) - THEN you have to sub off the replacement right back early because he's not doing his job properly - THEN you find that the sub brought on makes the same mistakes... then maybe just maybe you have to come to the conclusion that you're not using your full backs properly. That it's a problem with the system rather than with the individuals within it.

And the problem isn't just restricted to RB - take a look at the LB, and I reckon Moreno has the potential to be a monster of a player, but here's a map of what he did in the match:
http://www.fourfourtwo.com/statszone/8-2014/matches/755352/player-stats/100059/OVERALL_02#tabs-wrapper-anchor

All the forward passes failed; his successful passes are pretty much entirely backwards. And very few of the passes he attempted were in order to keep possession in the midfield.
So basically he's having to back down under pressure and then failing to get the ball across when he did get up the pitch. What he's NOT doing is what he needs to be doing: a) contributing to midfield play and b) making tackles to prevent West Ham from building attacks on the wing.

If you don't use your full backs properly, you're weakening your defence AND your attack at the same time. And that's where I think things are going wrong.

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2014, 06:00:48 pm »
It is not correct or accurate to say "Lucas cannot play alongside Gerrard" in a 2-ble pivot. It is correct and accurate to say "Gerrard cannot play alongside Lucas and pretty much anyone else" in a 2ble pivot.

We had a shortage of fit and available central midfielders. Furthermore, Gerrard, one of the fit and available CMs, is 34-years old and had played 90+ minutes twice vs AVFC and Ludogorets within roughly a week of yesterday's game. Coutinho has played quite a bit but not very effectively. He's eligible to be considered a central midfielder by virtue of where BR has used him. And if Coutinho is so eligible, so is Suso. There really is no difference between the two of them in terms of defensive capability. Lucas has hardly played so far so he could definitely contribute.

So, unless one is dead-set on using Gerrard every single effing game, and only using him as the most withdrawn central midfielder, options excluding Gerrard were available for a 1-2, 1-2-1 and 2-1 central midfield setups.

There was no need and no justification for Skrtel's inclusion in a 2 CB, back four defense.

These could've been possible formations:

Mignolet
Manquillo Lovren Sakho Moreno
Lucas
Henderson Coutinho
Sterling
Balotelli Borini

Mignolet
Skrtel Lovren Sakho
Manquillo Lucas Henderson Moreno
Sterling
Balotelli Borini

Mignolet
Manquillo Lovren Sakho Moreno
Lucas Henderson
Sterling
Markovic Balotelli Coutinho

And so on and so forth.

Finally, the notion that BR could not have foreseen WHU going for a diamond against our own diamond is far-fetched. They used it last game vs Hull City with Noble/Kouyate Downing/Zarate in the diamond. What they did vs us was a diamond thus: Noble/Kouyate Song/Downing. Not exactly a big, surprising change.
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Offline Trendisnotdestiny

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2014, 06:11:57 pm »
If you get in a right back to upgrade or least compete with one who's seen as a liability (JM for GJ) - THEN you have to sub off the replacement right back early because he's not doing his job properly - THEN you find that the sub brought on makes the same mistakes... then maybe just maybe you have to come to the conclusion that you're not using your full backs properly. That it's a problem with the system rather than with the individuals within it.


This is the problem with making a grocery list of complaints.   The reason why Manquillo was subbed off was not due to him.  Our midfield was getting overrun and our ability to dominate the ball on a narrow pitch was not there on the day.  The Henderson-Lucas-Gerrard midfield (at the time) lacked a solution to unlock pressure.  This invited WHU to press and we were doing too much defending. 

The solution had little to do with the personnel decision (other than Manquillo sub was the easiest to make and retain other game objectives).  By going to a 3-5-2, we get numbers in the midfield and our two best players, arguably (Sterling and Moreno) at wingback could stretch out the flanks and help us keep the ball, which we did much better.  If you remember, the game changed after subbing on Sakho and going to a three back set, and we got a goal.

Lastly, we have to get out of this mindset that if a player is taken off, he is not doing his job.  Plenty of times in games players come off subbed because of match-ups, health considerations, or systematic adjustments which have little to do with their play.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2014, 06:19:22 pm »
It is not correct or accurate to say "Lucas cannot play alongside Gerrard" in a 2-ble pivot. It is correct and accurate to say "Gerrard cannot play alongside Lucas and pretty much anyone else" in a 2ble pivot.

Well, it wasn't a double pivot. Gerrard played deep, Lucas played the side of the diamond. Gerrard has played single pivot and double pivot (with Henderson) this season - and not played particularly well in either. But the resulting conclusion can't be about a double pivot that wasn't used.

Either Gerrard can't play any role at all at the moment, or he isn't the only/main problem. Not one of the midfielders has been consistently good so far. People bemoan Henderson having to do Gerrard's running - but he's not. He's mostly running around in circles. The midfield unit isn't performing - in either direction - and pretty much regardless of personnel. But in the same way we have to recognise the defence is coming under pressure from a lack of midfield protection, the midfield is under pressure from a lack of attacking movement and cohesion; from constant, soft conceding of possession and lack of penetration.

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2014, 06:21:39 pm »
I think what Rodgers is failing to address is the player buzzing around Gerrard. I remember a number of times under Benitez that happened (Michael Brown) springs to mind. Benitez responded by asking Gerrard to shift his position and wander about the pitch and once he even ended up sitting on another opposition player causing two players to be committed to him.

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2014, 06:53:12 pm »
Lastly, we have to get out of this mindset that if a player is taken off, he is not doing his job.  Plenty of times in games players come off subbed because of match-ups, health considerations, or systematic adjustments which have little to do with their play.

That wasn't my argument. My point was that we aren't using the position properly, regardless of personnel - the opposite of "he is not doing his job".

I think the points you make are valid, especially the idea behind the shift to 3-5-2, but I stand by what I'm saying about the way we use full backs.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 06:54:58 pm by Robotforaday »

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2014, 07:08:15 pm »
Well, it wasn't a double pivot. Gerrard played deep, Lucas played the side of the diamond. Gerrard has played single pivot and double pivot (with Henderson) this season - and not played particularly well in either. But the resulting conclusion can't be about a double pivot that wasn't used.

Either Gerrard can't play any role at all at the moment, or he isn't the only/main problem. Not one of the midfielders has been consistently good so far. People bemoan Henderson having to do Gerrard's running - but he's not. He's mostly running around in circles. The midfield unit isn't performing - in either direction - and pretty much regardless of personnel. But in the same way we have to recognise the defence is coming under pressure from a lack of midfield protection, the midfield is under pressure from a lack of attacking movement and cohesion; from constant, soft conceding of possession and lack of penetration.

I didn't say we were in a 2ble pivot. Cpt Reina said Lucas could not play with Gerrard in a 2ble pivot. I'll get the quote.

Here:





Lucas cannot play that role ahead of Gerrard, at all. He can't play alongside him in a double pivot, at all. So if he's going to play it has to be lieu of Gerrard being there, at all.


« Last Edit: September 21, 2014, 07:10:14 pm by GrkStav »
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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2014, 07:11:11 pm »
Tactically i'm not sure what we're even trying to do anymore.

Every week the tactics, formation and style seem different this season whilst still being predictable enough to make us easy to play against. We just seem off the pace and easy to beat and nullify.
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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2014, 07:40:52 pm »
That wasn't my argument. My point was that we aren't using the position properly, regardless of personnel - the opposite of "he is not doing his job".

I think the points you make are valid, especially the idea behind the shift to 3-5-2, but I stand by what I'm saying about the way we use full backs.

I am not sure what "properly" means then. 

How would you use our fullbacks (given that Rodgers probably thought his team would start better and be able to dominate the ball)?

Using Lucas on the right side diamond might be a valid criticism given that he subbed him off after 45, but again the pitch, the score, and the objective change over a course of game.   Once we got down 1-0 and were not able to reclaim the initiative, we take on more risk.

Of course, we can argue that the second goal responsibility might lean a bit on Moreno for not closing down the shooter quickly enough, but Migs was in no-man's land.  I might also add that Moreno was the man of the match for many against Ludogorets, and his improvement since Man City has been the noticeable in the starting 11.   

Javier has been outstanding in terms of work rate and closing down the ball (sometimes still too aggressive, but ffs I'll take it compared to Glen).  And I might point out that we are sitting here shitting bricks if he doesn't take a flyer and chase down the ball at the end of the game against Ludogorets.   

Our marking backs are doing just fine.  The issue relates to the interplay between our midfield tactics and corresponding defensive spaces (gaps).  A secondary issue relates to our ability to solve problems in the offensive third through combination play.     
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Offline The Playmaker

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2014, 10:16:22 pm »
Well done to West Ham United. I thought they deserved the win yesterday and had a good strategy and game plan; much in the same way that Aston Villa did. They matched us and bettered us in many areas - despite conceding much of the possession. They had plenty of bodies behind the ball out of possession but made the transition from defence to attack look effortless at times. The key to that was the energy and pace that they had in midfield and the quickness in which they actually moved the ball. They scored twice within the opening ten minutes. We didn't really get going until much later on and at this level you aren't going to get away with switching off and having slow starts very often.

We have a lot of work to do now with three defeats in five games. It is still early on in the season. There is still time to put things right. We need to find some consistency, fluidity, energy and intensity in our performances - because right now the team is severely lacking. Teams are showing us more respect after last season and rightfully so. It is time for us to adapt to that and compete. If we fail to do that then we will fall by the wayside and finish up outside of the top four. One fear before the season kicked off was that we might suffer a hangover after what unfolded last season. At this moment in time, it does look like that might sadly be the case. It is still very early in the season but three defeats out of five games is pretty damning.

Besides the game against Tottenham Hotspur, we have looked very predictable in our play. Now, it is still early on in the season but regardless of what game it is, I don’t think you can play at a high level of intensity for ninety minutes or that you need to. But what West Ham United did during those opening twenty minutes was hit us hard and where it hurts. They scored two goals within the opening ten minutes. It gave them a foothold on the game. After that, they countered very well and could have scored even more in the first half. That is what we should be doing in my eyes. We need to be fast off the blocks; get ahead by a goal or two and then look to counter using the space and pace that we will have if we're ahead by one or two goals and the opposition are chasing a goal. Of course, this does rely on having players that can follow those instructions.

But even so - we need to be doing better without the ball. If we are inviting teams to come out then we need to be more solid. Our midfield was bypassed yesterday - similarly against Aston Villa in all truth where we played with a 4-2-3-1 formation. Yesterday, we started with a 4-4-2 and changed very quickly to a 3-5-2. We all know about our defensive problems. It isn’t just down to the defence though. I think you need more from the forwards and midfield. They are, in my eyes the first line of defence. They need to start pressing as a collective and have that hunger and desire without the ball to get it back and make the transition from defence to attack. Brendan Rodgers was clearly disappointed with the lack of intensity yesterday and he's right. You can't just coast through games like that when you are chasing a goal.

The other noticeable thing is that we are having lots of possession. We had over 70% against Aston Villa (registering just 1 shot on target despite having many attempts at goal) and over 60% against West Ham United. We arguably had better chances against West Ham United but there was an element of poor decision making at times; such as the chance where Borini could have squared the ball to Moreno. I’m not saying Moreno would have scored but he was arguably in a better position to score. In the end, the effort from Borini was tame. Now, I’m not blaming Fabio Borini for the defeat as that would be unfair to single him out. But at 2-1, you need to take a chance like that and give yourself a chance to go on and win the game.

We need to accept that a lot of teams will forfeit possession against us. They don’t want to be on the front foot for too long. A lot of teams know they will get some joy by having pace, energy and players that will work hard without the ball. If teams remain compact and deep then they will cause us some problems for sure - especially if our movement and inability to score is present. The fact that we are vulnerable in defence and midfield at times doesn't help. One clean sheet in five games is a sign of that. We need to be better defensively. I honestly can’t believe I’m writing that. We have done the obvious thing and thrown money at the problem.

I honestly don’t think that our defenders are as bad as some people think they are. Obviously we have some new players in the team: Moreno, Manquillo and Lovren. But I think a lot of our problems are down to our style of play and approach. At times, we are exposed when we don't have the ball. I have no doubts that we can dominate possession. But also I think there is a lack of communication and trust at time within the ranks. It was quite embarrassing to see Sakho and Lovren going for the same ball yesterday. The situation almost forced us to make another substitution.

But an even bigger problem lies within the team: Steven Gerrard. Steven Gerrard is unfortunately the elephant in the room once again. The captain put in some excellent performances at times last season but needs to have space and time to dictate games going forward. A lot of teams will not afford him that nowadays and rightfully so - it’s called nullifying the threat. One prominent feature of his game has been to drop in-between the two centre-backs and play from deep. His long range passing is very useful for the team when we have the wing-backs making runs into space further up the field. When that space isn't there, Gerrard becomes a passenger. His passing has looked very off at times this season. Like many others I just don't think that he should be playing three games in seven days. I know that we had injuries but he completed each game. It might only be the start of the season but the Premier League is very physical and demanding.

When we switched to a 3-5-2 yesterday, Skrtel and Sakho both played as the wide centre-backs and Lovren was central. All three are pretty apt at playing it out from the back. So with Downing already staying close to Gerrard, his contribution became less and less to the team after the formation change. He isn't the best at offering protection to the defence either. Gerrard is, and will always be a forward thinking player - which is great. But you need to strike the balance between attack and defence. You have to make some sacrifices because in some games you can't be giving the opposition so many chances. The diamond is still the way forward I think once we get Sturridge and Allen back. We want to control and flood the midfield to dominate games. You need players that will be brave with their movement too. But you also need players to drop in and cover one another. It is about having that awareness and we saw a lot of it last season.

Anyway, I’m not one to get too carried away when we win, draw or lose. This is football. We had a fantastic season last time out. But you can’t just shrug this start off. I mean, when you concede goals you will find faults and mistakes in how you conceded most of the time. For me, we need to look at the factors here. Why are we conceding such goals? We need to manage those situations better on the field. We can’t just keep working on this notion that we will win games even if the opposition has scored two or three goals. You can't expect the attack to bail you out all the time. This is a different situation now.

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2014, 10:28:45 pm »
It just doesn't feel right this. Spurs seems a long time ago never mind last season.

As the OP alluded to, west ham just tearing through our midfield and onto our defence. What a horrible sight that was, made even worse by Stewart Downing doing a lot of the damage.

I said after the villa game we looked found out, we miss Sturridge but I'm starting to doubt how much it's affected us actually. What would of Sturridge done to stop West Ham cutting through us the way that they did. On one side of Gerrard we had Henderson, on the otherside Lucas and to me that screams protection for Gerrard but also the wider areas too. Yet it was the most abject, woeful performance I've seen from our midfield since god knows when. When villa did is at home two years ago, it felt like a a sucker punch, last season it felt like we got it wrong tactically and left ourselves open to be shot as so to speak. This Villa and West Ham game in particular though...it's not like we were tearing forward and getting caught with too many men up the field, we were just shit, there is no excuse, nobody gave a fuck.
Half the game we actually spent with our own lads in our own half, we were comfortable in the sense that we never over committed, somehow West Ham still ripped us apart, even when we had Gerrard, Lucas and Henderson all behind the ball. How does that fucking happen to such an easy extent, it should be impossible to make it that easy like we did. Players and managers need to have a look at themselves,,deep in themselves and step up,,seriously fucking sort it out.

Offline wemmick

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2014, 10:45:42 pm »
Either Gerrard can't play any role at all at the moment, or he isn't the only/main problem. Not one of the midfielders has been consistently good so far. People bemoan Henderson having to do Gerrard's running - but he's not. He's mostly running around in circles. The midfield unit isn't performing - in either direction - and pretty much regardless of personnel. But in the same way we have to recognise the defence is coming under pressure from a lack of midfield protection, the midfield is under pressure from a lack of attacking movement and cohesion; from constant, soft conceding of possession and lack of penetration.

You make a good point, but part of my problem with your observation is that the targeting of Gerrard as our weak link suggests he is our main problem at the moment. Suarez's general game and movement suited Gerrard perfectly, but I'm not sure Balotelli's, Borini's or Lambert's game do. Based on the evidence so far, they all need a very mobile midfield to help them create space and havoc in the final third. It may take all three midfielder's playing 10 to 15 yards higher up the pitch to have consistent penetration in the final third. Gerrard hardly leaves the center circle in attack anymore and certainly can't track back to our goal when he is higher up the pitch. For me that is a real limitation to our game. We are consistently stretched to accommodate him playing as the deep lying midfielder, but he may not have the legs to be constantly on the move higher up the pitch.

The distance between Gerrard and the other midfielders is huge sometimes, and I'd rather the deep lying midfielder move up than the two attacking midfielders move back. 

Offline RedKenWah

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2014, 10:48:53 pm »
I think when you have a game plan that you change within the space of 20 mins then that practically sums up the game...
We weren't missing Sturridge as much as we were missing options in the middle of the park. I think a serious discussion has to be had about Stevie Gerrard, a 34 yr old playing 3 games in the space of a week 90 mins each time, we can't be doing this and there has to be a plan in place to eventually replace a legend of the club.
Also I thought it was a mistake playing Lucas on the right hand side of a diamond, although the he will offer effort in trying, that unfortunately doesn't lead to anything productive being done and again going back to making a change to take him off at half time probably emphasises that point more.
The keeper discussion has to also be had, he looks nervous and the goals conceded well the weren't goals he would have been conceding last season in my mind..

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2014, 11:11:19 pm »
I don't know where to begin...

I think the root of all the issues is a simple one to summarise.  We aren't keeping possession.

The approach we have under Rodgers is built on dominating possession of the ball.  If you have the ball, you won't concede.  Simple eh?

Well we've been exposed by teams matching our shape, preventing players from finding space to receive it.  They've had greater intensity to win the ball off us than we have had to find the space.  We need to fix this issue.

The diamond midfield is part of the problem as I see it.  It's narrow and plays into the hands of industrious midfields.  They are much more able to kill our space.  This is why the switch to wing backs worked for a short while.  We stretched them horizontally and gave ourselves passing options.

The other issue is we go from one extreme to another.  We either pass the ball forward too quickly (and straight), isolating a player high up the pitch and losing the ball, or we pass it around with no penetration and run out of patience.

I think we need to do something to increase our width (either wingers or a 352) and stretch teams vertically more effectively with better runs in behind, maybe from wide areas if not the centre.  This would enable us to keep the ball better.  As would having a player like Allen or Can alongside Henderson who are both very good ball retainers.

We look suspect defensively because we lose possession with players committed ahead of the ball.  If possession is lost at the wrong time, any defender will be exposed.  Keep the ball better, and teams will be less able to retain it themselves if we do turn it over as their shape will be lost from chasing us around.

Our main issues aren't defensive ones, they're just the ones we can easily see.  We need to focus on our actions in possession, which will improve with greater cohesion between the new players, and greater levels of fitness as the season goes on.

Offline Gegenpresser

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2014, 11:39:58 pm »
He's apparently supposed to press, cover, intercept, fill gaps, tackle and track runners. All, contradictorily, at the same time in the same role!

Stepping away from any specific discussion over Gerrard, how is it contradictory for a player in one role to be expected to do all of those when necessary? PoP has often spoken of how the ideal Rodgers is going for is a degree of universality in midfield where we have the fluidity to allow for any one of the three to instantaneously become the pressing midfielder, the covering midfielder, the destroyer, the halfback, the man behind a pressuring fullback, the man tracking a midfield runner, etc. To some extent, some degree of universality is implicit in the principles of zonal defence, and a team that can't allow for fluidity in defence is not going to be hard to pick apart, regardless of how many players they commit forward.

So is the fact that our midfield play is currently so static and rigid not part of the problem and not part of what is allowing even the likes of Fat Sam to effectively cripple our system with a bit of choice man-marking? And when we press forward and allow the defence to be exposed, are midfielders who can cover large expanses of space at a moment's notice and take up any number of defensive responsibilities not an obviously essential part of the system that Rodgers seems to want us to play?

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2014, 11:42:30 pm »
I don't know where to begin...

I think the root of all the issues is a simple one to summarise.  We aren't keeping possession.

The approach we have under Rodgers is built on dominating possession of the ball.  If you have the ball, you won't concede.  Simple eh?

Well we've been exposed by teams matching our shape, preventing players from finding space to receive it.  They've had greater intensity to win the ball off us than we have had to find the space.  We need to fix this issue.

The diamond midfield is part of the problem as I see it.  It's narrow and plays into the hands of industrious midfields.  They are much more able to kill our space.  This is why the switch to wing backs worked for a short while.  We stretched them horizontally and gave ourselves passing options.

The other issue is we go from one extreme to another.  We either pass the ball forward too quickly (and straight), isolating a player high up the pitch and losing the ball, or we pass it around with no penetration and run out of patience.

I think we need to do something to increase our width (either wingers or a 352) and stretch teams vertically more effectively with better runs in behind, maybe from wide areas if not the centre.  This would enable us to keep the ball better.  As would having a player like Allen or Can alongside Henderson who are both very good ball retainers.

We look suspect defensively because we lose possession with players committed ahead of the ball.  If possession is lost at the wrong time, any defender will be exposed.  Keep the ball better, and teams will be less able to retain it themselves if we do turn it over as their shape will be lost from chasing us around.

Our main issues aren't defensive ones, they're just the ones we can easily see.  We need to focus on our actions in possession, which will improve with greater cohesion between the new players, and greater levels of fitness as the season goes on.

Fantastic analysis, Prof.
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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2014, 11:55:23 pm »
I think we need to do something to increase our width (either wingers or a 352) and stretch teams vertically more effectively with better runs in behind, maybe from wide areas if not the centre. 
Of course we ended up with 3 at the back on Saturday, but don't we effectively play with 3 all the time, with SG splitting the cb's Prof mate?

.... somehow West Ham still ripped us apart,
West Ham were as good as they'll be all season unfortunately, they'll never repeat that performance. But with regards to how they scored I wouldn't say they "ripped us apart". Their second was a class finish and the third was a sucker as they countered from is pressing them for ages mate.

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2014, 11:56:40 pm »
The first goal was just organizationally a shambles with no excuse but the second goal I think highlighted the importance of Sturridge and Allen. Westham were able to press us when we tried to counter and it was made so much more effective because Liverpool without Sturridge coudldn't push the defense line back. Borini in Sturridges position just isn't quick too do that and Sterling as a no.10 is an important link who can't also be sitting on the shoulder.  Allen (and Suarez) were sorely missed because Allen is exceptional at showing for the ball and absorbing pressure on the turn. By not having out balls it allowed them to push onto our midfield and kill our attack.

I fully agree that Gerrard's lack of movement stood out but the setup was so wrong for him. He was rendered toothless because nobody was presenting for him long or short.  Last season he was so effective I think because he had targets to hit. Sturridge would run in behind the defense, Suarez was a nightmare constantly moving then Sterling would make 3rd attacking runs that were brutal.  Allen and Coutinho to constantly present and were capable of turning an opponent taking them out of play. And once that had happened, Henderson was motoring up the position in support and all that pace and movement in front of them was lethal.  It provided so many options for Gerrard to take advantage of his unique gifts and was brilliant to watch  Now with the setup we used against Westham as long as you make sure Sterling is marked tightly that's our threats gone. As good as Henderson is he is not good at turning a man with his back to the ball and Lucas is too static. Balotelli is an option with an aerial ball but Westham are brilliant at winning the second ball taking a lot of that threat away (though Sterling did score from that sort of play).

We need to setup as follows:

                           Gerrard
               Henderson   Allen/Coutinho/Lallana
                          Sterling
             Sturridge           Balotelli

And with Sturridge and Allen out it needs to be:

                          Gerrard
        Henderson             Lallana/Coutinho
                     Markovic/Sterling
     Sterling/Markovic        Balotelli

That or completely change the way we play and consider taking Gerrard out of the team.
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Offline Dougle

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2014, 12:13:36 am »
Well, it wasn't a double pivot. Gerrard played deep, Lucas played the side of the diamond. Gerrard has played single pivot and double pivot (with Henderson) this season - and not played particularly well in either. But the resulting conclusion can't be about a double pivot that wasn't used.

Either Gerrard can't play any role at all at the moment, or he isn't the only/main problem. Not one of the midfielders has been consistently good so far. People bemoan Henderson having to do Gerrard's running - but he's not. He's mostly running around in circles. The midfield unit isn't performing - in either direction - and pretty much regardless of personnel. But in the same way we have to recognise the defence is coming under pressure from a lack of midfield protection, the midfield is under pressure from a lack of attacking movement and cohesion; from constant, soft conceding of possession and lack of penetration.

Genuine question mate; Stevie was being man marked by a faster, fitter, sharper, clever attacker in Downing (for god's sake!). Stevie sitting back was pulling Downing and his mates in on top of our defense. Bringing Sakho on just compounded the congestion and confusion and slowness when we had the ball. It was like a vortex sucking all the play deep in our half. What should we have done ? To keep looking for Stevie was pointless yet it went on and on and on right to the very end. Surely the team and manager should have figured something out ?
What do you do in this situation ? We need to find an answer because it's working for the working sweating average teams right now. There are plenty more teams like that out there and they are taking notes.
So what do you do ? As I say it's a genuine question.

One option could be just take Stevie off - Move Lucas/Allen in there as a defensive midfielder - linkman, encourage Lovren to play out and have extra movement in Coutinho/Lallana/Allen in the middle. Take the focus of our game off Stevie and give more responsibility to the others ? Does that make any sense ?

Yersterday .... well we could still be playing now and we would not have created anything.

Offline Dougle

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2014, 12:17:26 am »
Interesting Dan, you got in before me and explained it better than I did. Why didn't we respond to the situation yesterday though ?

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2014, 12:26:56 am »
Of course we ended up with 3 at the back on Saturday, but don't we effectively play with 3 all the time, with SG splitting the cb's Prof mate?
When we win the ball back, Gerrard isn't in the back three.  He drops in during the possession phase.  When we win the ball and are immediately pressed, we need to move the ball out of pressure.  Width would give us more options out of pressure.  Last season, our width came from Sturridge and Suarez taking up wide positions.  A back three would give us width from wingbacks, or we could play a three man attack or two up with mobile and versatile forwards.


Offline GrkStav

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2014, 12:28:22 am »
Until the decision was apparently made to allow SG to venture further forward at some point deep into the second half, SG was precisely where he had been stationed with 2 CBs after we switched to a 3 CB and 2 WB backline.
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Offline John C

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2014, 12:34:11 am »
When we win the ball back, Gerrard isn't in the back three.  He drops in during the possession phase.  When we win the ball and are immediately pressed, we need to move the ball out of pressure.  Width would give us more options out of pressure.  Last season, our width came from Sturridge and Suarez taking up wide positions.  A back three would give us width from wingbacks, or we could play a three man attack or two up with mobile and versatile forwards.
I'm not sure what you're saying there Prof  :boxhead .
I'd suggest SG has largely remained between the two for about 6 months now. But even on Saturday with 3 at the back he only surged forward once.

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2014, 12:43:04 am »
I'm not sure what you're saying there Prof  :boxhead .
I'd suggest SG has largely remained between the two for about 6 months now. But even on Saturday with 3 at the back he only surged forward once.
Am I being whooshed?  ;D

When west ham had the ball, Stevie was in front of the centre backs.  At the moment we regain the ball, he's still in front of them and the full backs should be in orthodox positions.  Therefore, we don't have the immediate out ball to a wide player.

If we have three CBs, when the ops have the ball, the full backs will be further forward than when we have a back four, giving us the early wide option.

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2014, 12:44:20 am »
How many times did Henderson pass to Gerrard and Gerrard pass back to him in the 2nd half, all practically on the same line?

Nothing wrong with these 'wall passes' per se, but the idea is to use them to take the player man-marking one or both of the passers out of position or alter the shape of the opposition defense. We didn't do that.
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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2014, 12:48:50 am »
Am I being whooshed?  ;D

When west ham had the ball, Stevie was in front of the centre backs.  At the moment we regain the ball, he's still in front of them and the full backs should be in orthodox positions.  Therefore, we don't have the immediate out ball to a wide player.

If we have three CBs, when the ops have the ball, the full backs will be further forward than when we have a back four, giving us the early wide option.

Yesterday, when we had three CBs, when the opposition had the ball we ended up with a line of FIVE at the back, instead of the WB being further forward.

Furthermore, with 3 CBs, and Lovren as the CCB, Gerrard (and later Henderson) would "show" for the pass 3-5 (sometimes 1) yards away from Lovren.

The width helped and we had some good chances, but we had 4 not particularly well positioned players being pressured and harried by 3 or 4 opponents, preventing them from being terribly useful in an attacking sense.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 02:15:45 am by GrkStav »
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Offline decky

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2014, 01:15:54 am »
I think we are over analysing a little, as a lot of these issues people are mentioning existed last season when we still managed win games like this. The biggest thing we have missed in recent games is a dynamic front line which will naturally stretch the opposition. Sturridge is so quick and clever and creates a lot of space with his movement and sudden bursts of speed. Add that to another dangerous forward and the mentality of the opposition is completely different, like what we saw at Tottenham. The zip in the team is gone without this threat and movement. Obviously we have issues in midfield and at the back, but we had those last year too, but teams were still scared to death of us. They aren't at the moment because that same threat just isn't there

Obviously Brendan needs to fix these issues quickly but I feel once Balotelli, Lallana and possibly Markovic settle, our threat will be back with the already dangerous combo of Sterling and Sturridge. Mignolet doesn't look like he's going to make it though does he? A commanding keeper such as Valdes could improve our defence quite a lot almost instantly. Just generally being switched on seems to be a problem at the back for us and Mignolet has got something to do with it I think.

Midfield is a tough one. Gerrard has to play most games as we need and old head in the team but it has to be complimented with energy and toughness around him, Allen is a big miss at the moment

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2014, 02:14:57 am »

Midfield is a tough one. Gerrard has to play most games as we need and old head in the team but it has to be complimented with energy and toughness around him, Allen is a big miss at the moment

That's not why Gerrard has to play most games. If it is, he shouldn't play. That's faint praise if you ask me. Gerrard offers a lot more than simply being 'an old head'.
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Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2014, 04:02:32 am »
We couldn't keep possession and get a grip on the game, add that to our lack of ability to defend set pieces and that's how we lost the game. We conceded two early goals, on another day we not have conceded any. It was clear West Ham were the better side early on but if they hadn't of been as ruthless it their finishing it could have been a very different game. The crossing (which we only found a man once, an over hit cross that landed far side of the box) and long ball's need to stop and ball retention need to improve massively. Much work needed.

Similar to the Villa game those early goals meant West Ham had the luxury of being able to sit back and hit us on the occasional counter and just like the Villa game we struggled to keep possession in the opposition half which meant we struggled to create chances.

Borini disappointed but it was a tough game for him once West Ham started playing deeper he was never going to get in behind (presumably why he started). Balotelli again showed him and Sturridge will strike a great partnership, their attributes should complement each other perfectly. Balotelli is brilliant at linking midfield to attack with his first touch, passing and strength where as Sturridge has that little bit of flair and pace to get in behind and find that extra yard of space. Problem is with Sturridge's injury record how often will we get to see them together and will it be enough this season? As Borini just doesn't look like he's good enough back up for Sturridge, Lambert not mobile enough to play alongside Mario. Is Sterling an answer here? He played the role alongside Suarez often brilliantly and maybe it's time to give it a go rather than persist with Borini.

Our pressing and intensity was really poor, even Henderson didn't look up to it. A worry, are injuries effecting us already? Can we not play two games a week with high intensity? Gerrard is what he is now, he's became our Pirlo. A luxury player who the formation and side is built around. Defensively he's not going to give you a lot, more than Pirlo who's a lot older but it's understandable that he's not box to box pressing and tackling at 34. Problem is the past two games much like we seen with Pirlo is that he's been targeted by opposition managers to be man marked. I remember Ferguson doing this through Welbeck with Alonso in the CL quarter final a few season's back and a lot more regularly since then. Question is, is Gerrard doing enough in attack/possession to make up for those incababilitys in defence/mobility? Yes, of course he is just look at his stats they are ridiculous and up there with your Pirlo and Alonso's so just be happy we have him still. He will however need to be better when man marked like that as it's going to become a common theme. Also sadly I think Lucas could well be finished, although don't want to jump the gun and hope he proves me wrong. What he isn't though is a CM, not for a title challenging club. An option to kill off games for me at best currently.

Our full back's while still a little naïve, much like the rest of our defence are very much a work in progress and have the potential to be brilliant. I think cohesion is a big problem so far this season in fact it's clearly visible compared to last when we had little activity in the summer. If Rodger's signed Sakho and Lovren to partner him then Christ play the two together and let him develop an understanding, either way we need consistency at the back as well as the obvious need for major work from set pieces. Strange to see Rodger's suggest we didn't have problems from set pieces last season, I personally thought we've been poor for a long time now in that regard. Lovren need's to realise he's not with Southampton anymore and stop all those long balls, possession starts from the back and he need's to be better in that regard.

We have to remember none of our fixtures have been easy games, in fact all have been fixtures we've struggled in previous season's. Even West Ham away which we have a good record points wise has always been tough and big Sam never gives us it easy. If we can beat Everton we have an average of 2 points per game which is what we should be aiming for so all is not lost an the panic stations on here are extremely premature. We will improve, the fixtures will get easier, more players will return from injury, the team will start playing as a team again and I think we'll find come the end of the season we won't be a million miles away even if it's not an unexpected title challenge like last season.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 04:10:44 am by ShayGuevara »
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Offline KirkVanHouten

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Re: Round Table: West Ham 3 v Liverpool 1
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2014, 04:05:52 am »
Give up trying to be defensively sound, we never will be with Gerrard in DM. We need to take the same approach as last season. Play Coutinho or Lallana in CM with Henderson and the undroppable Gerrard. Our pace of play at the moment is pitiful, we move the ball incredible slowly and none of our CMs carry the ball so we're predictable and easy to press. Playing Coutinho or Lallana in there we have players who can pass and beat a man (although neither are in great form right now they're both capable of moments of magic) and will run at the opposition. 

This season we have looked devoid of any creativity and movement, we're often aimlessly lofting balls into the box.