Topic: Cutting from the same cloth - thoughts about the future

[Aristotle]

I've been struggling to put it into words but for the lack of a more articulate alternative; I bloody love this new Liverpool team. For the first time in far too long the team is playing with a real purpose and a plan that is being followed from top to bottom. Mr Dilkington wrote a post on similar lines not too long ago and it got me thinking. In the supposed football of tomorrow youth development, transfer regulations and living within your own means is the name of the game. Liverpool's hierarchy is banking on this to become a reality but where does the club really stand if this in does come to fruition?

We have seen the club simultaneously reduced to asset stripping in the form of selling Xabi Alonso, Javier Mascherano and Fernando Torres for high sums of money and then in complete contradiction seen the club bring in not only amongst the top English talent out there but also world class talent nurturers from Spain to help them along. As far too many established internationals left the scene we saw Jerome Sinclair, Jack Robinson, Raheem Sterling, John Flanagan, Suso, Jonjo Shelvey all making their Liverpool debuts breaking into the club's top 20 youngest debutants. Sinclair and Robinson as youngest debutants in the club's history and Sterling 2nd youngest goal scorer in history. In and of itself a remarkable milestone considering the club's rich and long history.

The future is undoubtedly bright but the sitution of today is a little bit more in doubt. I have full faith in Brendan Rodgers but he is someone who fully believes in a system. A characteristic I admire greatly but one I am very sceptical about as I get the feeling that Rodgers' system, despite aiming for the opposite is too reliant on individuals. He has, much like Kenny Dalglish, suffered from the terrible headache of missing Lucas Leiva in midfield. Instead, and this is both a superb compliment to his quality and a damnation of the system, Joe Allen has immidiately become all but indispensable. When I watch us play it's with great joy. Even when we fail something it's as if we are failing for the right reasons. Much was made of Downing's square pass into the box, it was risky and cleared and that was it really. But when you think about it, a telling sign of just how far along the team has gotten in such a short time. If you look at it abstractly. The sheer audacity of a right winger, playing at left back, squaring the ball into the box before the feet of the reserve keeper with Samuel Eto'o within spitting distance, just to stay true to the philosophy of the club is incredible. There will be mistakes undoubtedly, Skrtel's howler vs. City when he should've bolted it into the stands is one, yet on the other hand moving the ball with 5-6 touches from our own penalty box to the opposition's has happened more often than I can recall this season. It hasn't always paid off, but when it does you know it'll be something special.

And thus we get to my original thesis. Are we actually equipped to make this happen? I have this bad feeling that Rodgers' system is a bit too close to Walter Mazzarri's one at Napoli. Again I have nothing but the utmost respect for Rodgers. He has found a footballing philosophy he believes in, he wants to implement it and has done little to suggest that it's impossible. But there's still that gnawing feeling. That voice at the back of my head that suggests it's all a bit too reliant on everything staying the same, hence the comparison to Mazzarri's Napoli. On their day Napoli are one of the greatest team in football to watch. They are so organized, cohesive and well drilled that it's a thing of beauty to behold. Napoli's starting XI are a group of individually talented players and mid-table avarageness turned into title contenders by incredible organization last season they showed their potential by being extra-time away from making it to the CL quarter-finals. Only faltering once someone went missing. Their line up of De Sanctis-Aronica-Campagnaro-Cannavaro-Maggio-Zunica-Inler-Gargano-Hamsik-Lavezzi-Cavani provided Serie A viewers with some memorable games. Pummeling Inter in home and away. Cavani's hat-trick sinking Milan at the San Paolo. Dominating Juve before Conte's Any Given Sunday-esque team talk inspired the Old Lady to a 3-3 draw. In the CL they took on and won City, gave eventual finalists Bayern a run for their money over both legs before being eliminated by Chelsea. They beat Chelsea 3-1 in the first leg quite convincingly. They were doing fine in the second leg, holding their shape until Maggio went off. This one loss of a key element in their game, forcing a switch meant they surrendered all their advantages and were pummeled by Chelsea who went on to win 4-1 in extra time.

And this is my biggest concern for Rodgers' system. I only take Napoli as an example because to me they are the obvious to go to when comparing an almost totalitarian belief in the system. The system is set up and perfected with the starting XI in mind and it seems as though there are no spare parts. Rodgers has been very hesitant to make changes during our games. It seems as though certain players have a part to play and they are kept on regardless of circumstance because no one else is trusted and/or capable of playing the same role. The Reading game is a prime example where we gave the advantage away, coping with it by making 3 substitutes when it seems that a like-for-like substitution would've enabled us to keep the same tempo going. When Gerrard starts a game he ends it. Same with Suarez and Allen. No matter how they are playing, if they are tired or one sneeze away from picking up a second yellow.

Our lack of depth is a worry already, but it seems we're making it too hard on ourselves. Sterling is already become a starter as has Suso and although fantastic and promising is also a concern. In this 4-3-3 system we are trying to play the requirement for Rodgers seems to be that the widemen are versitile, quick and can beat their man. Suso and Sterling fit that description perfectly but are they ready to shoulder so much responsibility at such a young age. Without meaning to repeat myself, is the team frankly strong enough to cope with that and where do you draw the line between giving youngsters an opportunity to impress and when are they getting game time as a last result?

Without the riches available to many a club out there where does strength in depth come from? And secondly, and just to add more pressure on these young players, can Liverpool "pull a Barca"? Barcelona have of course done this superbly, better than any team out there. In the 2007/2008 season they had Yaya Toure anchoring midfield. The next season they bought Seydou Keita yet to virtually everyone's surprise unknown entity Sergio Busquets came in from the B squad and went on to play 46 matches in his debut season. Pedro Rodriguez was a player not many people had faith in initially. Making his debut at 20 people thought he couldn't be that good, since he hadn't broken through already. In his first season he only managed 14 games as Barca won the treble. Next season this relative unknown went on to play over 50 games and became the first player in history to score in 6 different competitions in one season. Similarly Thiago Alcantara came from seemingly nowhere to amass an incredible 60 games before the age of 21.


As Rodgers' philosophy starts setting roots at the club will we have the courage to trust the players we make? How realistic is the aim of having at least 5 of the starting XI homegrown players whilst challenging for trophies?

It's all very exciting, in fact I don't remember being as excited for anything so hypothetical in my time of watching football. We're already showing so much potential and I for one can't wait to watch it progress before my eyes. So strap yourselves in, I think we're in for one hell of a ride.

[royhendo]

It's a brilliant and thought-provoking piece, but it's fair to say it's not a worry I share. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that without massive resources, and without a system you tend to devote your limited resources to, you can't develop a notion of value in your players, and you'll be more likely to become disproportionately reliant on individuals. 

We're right at the start, but already I would argue the game away to West Brom was our most compelling of the season, and it featured 'lesser' players. That was encouraging, wasn't it? It means the Lucas thing offers upside, but that players have started to look fungible. 

I wrote this a while ago, and it sums up my view. It's a big part of why I wanted Rodgers when Kenny went. 

http://www.level3football.com/royhendo/article/boys_just_wanna_have_fun_gibility 

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BOYS JUST WANNA HAVE FUNGIBILITY

By royhendo // June 09 2011

D’you know, I sometimes wonder why I agreed to moderate a Liverpool site’s “Summer Transfer Forum” this year. Sure, it can be hilarious - and by God do you get ample evidence of humanity’s flaws - but sometimes you despair at the modern fan’s schizophrenic tendencies.

That said, it can sometimes be a pleasure for a geek such as myself. For example, only yesterday a debate kicked off as follows.

Is it a disaster if your club misses out on its top transfer targets?

The answer, as always, surely depends on context. You see, for me, at certain clubs, it matters a lot less if you miss out on your top targets. So what sets those clubs aside?

Jumpers for Goalposts and Wonderboy Reliance
At some clubs more than others, there’s no real thought given to systems. These clubs don’t have a ‘way’ we all identify with - their fortunes rise and fall depending on the success they’ve had in the transfer market, or the chance arrivals of mercurial talents from within their youth ranks. If football is cyclical, these clubs don’t manage the cycles. So for these clubs, it can be a disaster if another club niks in at the 11th hour and steals their promised wonder boy from under their noses. It affects their whole strategy for the season to come, and sometimes beyond (but probably not given the lack of planning in place).

These are the same clubs whose fortunes vary wildly depending on who’s available and who’s injured. The whole thing depending on the individuals involved, when you take those individuals out of the mix, things get tricky.

Systems and Fungibility
On the other hand, if your club bases everything on its ‘way’ of doing things, and on the patterns it follows on the training ground and during games, there’s a chance that things will become far less volatile. Of course, it depends on the approach being right in the first place. A bad strategy is a bad strategy is a bad strategy, after all. But assuming it’s just about right, it matters far less who the individuals involved are going to be.

In that context, every player’s role has more chance of becoming an interchangeable component - you can swap in the understudy for the leading man, and the overall machine doesn’t function that differently - the players become ‘fungible’.

Fungibility (n)
The property of a good or a commodity whereby individual units are capable of mutual substitution.

When a club does things in that way, the players develop a deeper understanding of their roles, and it’s almost more important that they understand the underlying principles of the approach than it is they embody the minute detailed requirements for their position. Indeed, at its pinnacle, this approach makes it more difficult for new players coming in, no matter what their quality, because they have to adjust to the footballing culture of their new club, and that takes time - and often while under relentless pressure.

Look at David Villa for example. There’s barely a club in the world who wouldn’t want him as a player. But he’s taken time to adjust to life at Barca, hasn’t he? Nobody would doubt his quality, but some within that club would no doubt argue it’s better to promote someone from within the ranks - someone steeped in the process - in the ‘Barca way’.

There are other clubs throughout Europe who are following much the same model, and it’s fair to say these clubs are far more resilient to their fluctuating fortunes in the transfer market.

The Middle Ground
Of course, things are never quite that simple. Even if your systems are rock solid, when your very best players are missing you’re still gonna suffer. And if your rivals steal a march on you to the players best suited to your system, then they gain an opportunity you’ve missed. But nothing’s certain. A Phil Jones, while talented, isn’t the only decent young defender in the modern game. A Jordan Henderson, meanwhile, isn’t the only decent young midfielder. There’ll be another tranche along next year on the “Yo Sushi!” conveyor belt that is the tranfer market. So why fret?

If you’re clever, of course, you’ll hire a chef and start work on your own conveyor belt. That way, when the big opportunities do come along, you’ll have more cash sitting around and less distraction.

[Hazell]

Fantastic OP and a lot to think about. There's a lot of questions still and that's where we are, through all the changes, players coming through, Rodgers' ideas etc. Your last line sums it up, it's definitely going to be interesting.

[Aristotle]

It's a brilliant and thought-provoking piece, but it's fair to say it's not a worry I share. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that without massive resources, and without a system you tend to devote your limited resources to, you can't develop a notion of value in your players, and you'll be more likely to become disproportionately reliant on individuals.

We're right at the start, but already I would argue the game away to West Brom was our most compelling of the season, and it featured 'lesser' players. That was encouraging, wasn't it? It means the Lucas thing offers upside, but that players have started to look fungible.

I'd just like to reply to this before I go onto part 2 of this "thought trilogy". I have doubt over the system but not the manager or the blueprints. I will fully admit to my scepticism. I really like Rodgers. I think he's a superb manager but I still have doubts over the system. Sometimes you just have to play the hand you're dealt. Even the best of systems with the best of players can be stopped. Of these are many examples, Greece winning the Euros are perhaps the least favourite one. Cruyff's Barca getting tonked by Capello's Milan is arguably the most famous one. Cruyff had assembled the greatest team in Europe, playing total football and they were a joy to watch but the refusal to compromise met that even if they had the best system in the world they were crushed.

In the immidiate aftermath of the Merseyside derby these doubts will no look a bit silly but I still maintain they have their valid points. I have mentioned my concern over Rodgers' substitutions before. Most notably the Gerrard-Shelvey midfield combination has seen us lose the compactness and neatness in midfield virtually on every occasion, why I'll leave for a later debate. I was especially worried in the Reading game where it took 3 subs to get done what it appeared a single substitution or shift in positions could just as easily have solved. I felt the same way after Stoke. Juan Loco put it brilliantly when referring to their "game" but they're a hard team to beat, whatever your feelings are about them. In that game I was a bit dissapointed that we actually conceded our ideals. We were more direct, trying to outmatch them instead of having them chase the ball. It ended with playing into their hand and yet another boring draw ensued.
   On the subject Rodgers though deserves full praise for his reactions in the Merseyside derby. Everton simply played to their strengths by bypassing the midfield and thusly voiding our midfield 3. An added presence in the center doesn't matter when the man with the advantage is out of the game. This was a tactic we employed in the last 30 minutes against Chelsea in the FA Cup meaning an reversal in momentum and resulted in a great goal. Rodgers was fully aware of that and brilliantly adjusted with the inclusion of Coates and Shelvey.

For this I will doff my cap and fully admit to being in the wrong. Rodgers is very good tactics wise but I didn't think he would have it in him to concede his ideals just yet, certainly not to do so for the first time at Goodison. I have often felt as though he was persisting with the system just for the sake of it, perhaps to prove it to the players ... less used to the idea of possession based football. But I have to say well played, it wasn't quite up to the finesse of Conte's 3-5-2. But I am nothing if not a man of compromise

[Aristotle]

Now I would like to get to the next part of this intended trilogy, picking up from the iniatial ending; As Rodgers' philosophy starts setting roots at the club will we have the courage to trust the players we make? How realistic is the aim of having at least 5 of the starting XI homegrown players whilst challenging for trophies?


Before I begin I'd like to stop for a bit about raising your own players. The PL definition of a home-grown player is:

A home-grown player will be defined as one who, irrespective of his nationality or age, has been registered with a club affiliated to the Football Association or the Football Association of Wales for a period, continuous or not, of three entire seasons or 36 months prior to his 21st birthday (or the end of the Season during which he turns 21).

Quite strict standards if not a bit disproportional. As the years go by players have much longer careers than ever before. Improvements in the fields of Medical science, physio therapy, reconstructive surgeries, as well as much healthier ways of living ranging from non-smokers and drinkers to expertly monitored nutritional diets which means that the dreaded age of 30 isn't that bad anymore. There have even been some in the world of football speculating that the achievements of a Baresi, Maldini or Zanetti will become the common rule not the exception within 25 years.

However rightful in definitions and terms it is the lay of the land. This means that the importance of finding players at a young enough age will skyrocket. But alternatively will also most likely increase the price of those who meet the requirement in the meantime. A concern surely for all PL clubs because rates are at such an insane rate. Notorious examples of this hyperinflation would be Peter Crouch and Darren Bent, fine players of their own merit but have generated an incredible 108 million pounds in transfer fees. To put that into context (wages aside) for the same money you could've gotten 3/4 of the best midfield in the world on in addition to any two of Robin van Persie, Luis Suarez, David Silva, Juan Mata or Mario Balotelli. Or if you were in a mood for something more selective, a Eden Hazard or a Radamel Falcao would've been open to you. If you were feeling a bit cheeky, you could've fitted in a Gerrard Pique just for laughs with the pocket change.

This might not matter too much if you have the spending power of a Man City, Real Madrid or PSG but those of us that don't, we must learn the value of talent and the importance of having the possibility of putting such talents to proper use. As much as we don't like to say it outloud, the Mancs did an outstanding job of this during the 90's. Keeping the same group of players together year in year out meaning that you could afford to bring in only the best set the foundation for their success. From Ferguson's first league title in '93 to his 8th in '03 he had an incredible number of "homegrown" players to choose from. In that period with 7 or more seasons were: Pallister, Irwin, Giggs, Schmeichel, Beckham, Butt, Keane, Gary and Phil Neville, Scholes, Solskjær, Silvestre and O'Shea. An incredible 13 players with over 7 years at the club. Meaning that for the better part of a decade he had his same squad at the ready, only upgrading where possible, the rest remained the same. A terrifying contrast to our eternal roundabout and inability to produce a starter since Steven Gerrard.


Now however Liverpool look like genuine contenders in this department. As noted above Wisdom, Flanagan, Robinson, Kelly, Morgan, Sterling, Suso, Shelvey, Sinclair (and if we loosen our definition of young players) Allen, Henderson, Pacheco and Borini could all play a part in the squad for the next 10-15 years. After that there's a whole new breed of players at the acadamy and reserves as well as the inevitable new inclusions of wünderkinder from around the world are swooped up.

But here we reach an impass. What does it mean to play the Liverpool way today? I don't mean the term itself or the meaning it had in the glory of yesteryear. Purely what does it mean to play for Liverpool and how does it set us apart from the world? The most obvious go-to comparison is yet again Barcelona. As I mentioned above the way that the likes of Busquets, Pedro et al have settled in almost flawlessly at Barcelona is astounding. You could easily be forgiven for thinking it's nothing short of a miracle. But when you think about it for a bit longer, it's nothing of the kind. It's the blueprint developed by Cruyff, "perfected" by Guardiola. Everyone at Barcelona plays the same way, from an early age they are taught to play a certain way, those good enough become La Masia students those who fit the bill play for Barca. A tradition, a heritage, a grand plan. Such is their dedication to this mission that I feel it perfected in the quotes of one good man about Sergio Busquets [on the subject of said good man's visit to La Masia]: "It is no surprise to me how good he is. He had been learning the Barcelona way of football since he was a twinkle in his father's eye"


So where does this vision come from? For weeks and months we were led to believe that this was a future to be orchestrated by a much maligned "Director of Football". Those plans were all scratched in favour of Brendan Rodgers, with the assistance of Borrell and Segura. Segura sadly walked from his position and is a great loss to the club. However it is clear from the influx of youth, the club is in good hands. And you know what for the first time since taking over the reigns, I'm starting to contemplate the idea that it might just have been a stroke of genius. Rodgers was a man who said all the right things but there were doubts whether he'd go through with it. After setting out the club's youngest starting XI in the PL and after starting Wisdom, Sterling and Suso in the Merseyside derby (having previously played them against the likes of Arsenal and Manchester teams) it's fair to say, you can come out of the bunker the barrage is over.

So if Rodgers is the man to make it happen on the pitch, Borrell is the man to give him the players to do so then where does the foundation come from? What is the role of the acadamy?

Frank McParland the club's acadamy director recently gave an interview where he said:

If there are two players worth looking at, one is English and one is foreign, and they’re at exactly the same level, we’d always take the English player. If one is English and one is Scouse, and they’re at exactly the same level, we would 100% always take the Scouse one, because our club’s identity has always been about having local kids coming through and we’re desperate to carry that on.

Now this is where for all the good that is being done in youth development, this one I fundamentally disagree with. Unpopular no doubt but so be it. I understand the sentiment and idealism of it but to me as the basis of youth policy it's outdated to say the least. I made as much clear on the topic of Adam Morgan because I can not understand the idea of wanting someone to succeed based on locality rather than quality. If he makes it I want it to be because he is by far the best of the lot. I have since then (as on many an occasion) been dutifully informed that I "don't get it". Through the years of not getting it I have often wondered whether there is any actual benefit to it or whether the more general (now referred to as) homegrown factor matters more. For me the crucial part is getting the right players, regardless of where they are from. As underlined by the definition. Being homegrown means

A player ... irrespective of his nationality or age, has been registered with a club ... for a period, continuous or not ... prior to his 21st birthday (or the end of the Season during which he turns 21).

In fact upon looking at Liverpool's rich history of adopted captains you could argue that we should look for Scots, not Scousers. From Billy Liddell to Sami Hyypia and John Barnes Liverpool's captains have been leaders, gods amongst mere mortals. Leaders in the truest sense of the word. Because at the end of the day, as Paul Stanley famously quipped; It doesn't matter where you're born, it doesn't matter where you come from, it matters where your head is at. Rodgers plays a system that requires incredible bravery. Being the case this means the opportunity for young players is now more reachable than ever. Not set in their ways, with the whole world to conquer and everything to prove. This is a mentality that can be instilled at the club from top to bottom and I firmly believe Rodgers is the man to do so. Rodgers has shown the potential of this squad and of his own mentality. He has created an atmosphere in which an insatiable hunger for success is the driving force. He has given the players a chance to prove themselves and gives the impression of a meritocrisy, if you're good enough, you're old enough and if you're better than the rest you start. It's a mentality which breeds winner from a spirit healthy competition. One thing is for sure however.

The future is bright. The future is ours.

[royhendo]

Bump - enjoy

[Aristotle]

After some interaction with people I feel I should clarify a few things:
The somewhat loose and rambling portion of this thread can be explained by the lack of a definite conclusion. It was initially intended as a trilogy of thoughts and it still is. The plan was to set the play in motion, then set the stage for what we have on our hands and then reach some sort of a conclusion on the prospect of the future. However after seeing only Joe Allen, Oussama Assaidi and Fabio Borini come in as players that Brendan Rodgers want and the (somewhat limited) overhaul of the summer I simply felt it not only unfair but also unconclusive to set forth any sort of conclusion before a scenario presents itself in which judgement can be passed.

Rodgers was not backed sufficiently near the end of the transfer window, players left and weren't replaced and thusly he has had to rely on youth and fringe players, most (if not all) of whom were in one way or another subject to attempts bringing forth the end of their respective times at Liverpool. Until we see definitive movement in terms of players coming in and going out, how successful the squad rotation of the limited squad will fare and so on.


But until then I have attempted to put forth my understanding of the philosophy and style of play Brendan Rodgers has tried to implement at the club and what the foundations he has to work with are and trying to draw some temporary conclusions on the work he has done so far. In the meantime I'm working on another piece that should bridge the gap and better sum up Rodgers' style of play.

[Aristotle]

I'm a sucker for lyrics. To me they say so much in so few words. When thinking about Gerrard and Carragher and the possibility of not seeing them in a Liverpool shirt I am reminded of a song from the most unlikely of sources, KISS.

A world without heroes ... is like a world without sun. You can't look up to anyone ... without heroes

A fundamental question Brendan Rodgers will face in the coming months is what makes his team tick? Faced with a position that no Liverpool manager has faced since Roy Evans he will soon be without his 'Scouse heartbeat'. Come the turn of the new year, Liverpool Football Club will mark nearly a decade under the captaincy of Steven Gerrard. The longest captaincy in the club's history since Ron Yeats held the armband from the 1961/62 season to his final in 1969/70. Gerrard's deputy captain, Jamie Carragher will see his contract run out in the summer and bringing an end to his 16.5 years of playing for the club. As Liverpool's 2nd highest capped player he is a massive influence and he will cast a mighty shadow on those who follow in his footsteps.

With both of these giants soon to depart (their contracts running out in summers of 2014 and 2013 respectively) Rodgers will be without these stalwarts of the club. Again the first manager to face this dilemma for a decade and a half. But then again Brendan Rodgers does not appear to be a man who flusters at the idea of a challenge. He is someone who relishes at the idea. On repeated occasions he has gone on record citing he did not take the job because it was easy. He came here because of the challenge and he has full faith in his abillity to overcome it. I would argue Rodgers is one of those annoyingly optimistic people who really means it when he says in every crisis there is opportunity.

A quarter into his first season as Liverpool manager Brendan Rodgers has already brought forth changes which reflect his position, philosophy and vision for the club. Gone are direct, one demensional footballers like Carroll, Adam and Spearing - an attempt was made to sell Downing, Henderson, Cole and Enrique most, if not all, of whom are likely to be open to enquiries come January 1st.
Joe Allen has come in and virtually on his own transformed a rigid midfield into a fluent one. Charlie Adam has made way for the more continental, more mobile, more comfortable on the ball Nuri Sahin [more on him in due time]. The mantra of "if you're good enough - you're old enough" finally coming true. With Raheem Sterling playing a role every match of the season so far. Sterling stands at 16, Jonjo Shelvey - 14, Suso and Wisdom have 8. Newly aquired Samid Yesil has already started two matches, Adam Morgan and Pacheco featuring in 2 a piece whilst Jerome Sinclair has gone on to become the club's youngest debutant. And only a quarter into the season, we might still see more young faces depending how the season progresses. With new contracts for Luis Suarez, Daniel Agger, Martin Skrtel, Jonjo Shelvey, Suso and [soon to be] Raheem Sterling the pattern is obvious. Old, tired and direct players have been shown the door. Players comfortable on the ball have been brought in, the tenure of those already in place extended.


There is also one grand misunderstanding - that sadly I can not claim credit for correcting. In my opinion Rodgers is 100% right in his philosophy of having every play a part.

When we have the football everybody’s a player. The difference with us is that when we have the ball we play with 11 men, other teams play with 10 and a goalkeeper.

I have long advocated some sort of a compromise but one thing is absolutely clear however. It's not that Brendan Rodgers hasn't got the players to play the style of football he wants because he does ... he just needs more of them.


And so we reach yet another impass. If there is one thing that I find problematic with Rodgers is that he seems a bit cautious in bringing about his revolution. As many have pointed out in the aftermath (and many predicting it before the match started) all the good that was achieved in the win against West Brom in the League Cup seemed undone as we were eliminated by Swansea. Against West Brom we picked players who were up for the task. Coates, Henderson, Wisdom, Robinson, Sahin, Pacheco, Assaidi and Yesil all cherished the moment. It was their moment to shine, to impress the boss, to make a name for themselves. Yesil played decently, Pachceo was threatening, Sahin was the standout performer with both goals in the well earned away win. Our subs were Yesil out for 16 year old Jerome Sinclair and Pacheco out for Suso. 8 minutes from FT - chasing the win and we bring on two teenagers. Suso was an instant impact, picking the ball up in the center he dribbled at West Brom with pace, Assaidi made a run into the box and squared it to Sahin. 3 players, 2 touches, 2-1 Liverpool.
It was incredibly brave off Rodgers. Away to a side that had beaten us 0-3 in the league he hands out a debut and a 3rd appearance to two teenagers when chasing the win. The Swansea game was then nothing other than a startling remission. Jordan Henderson at right-back, Jonjo Shelvey playing the support midfield position, Joe Cole spearheading midfield next to Stewart Downing and Assaidi with poor Yesil looking a nervous wreck up top. It felt painful to watch at times and a worrying defeat after such a promising start. Joe Cole coming off at half-time left people questioning whether he had in fact participated in the first half. It was dreadful and served a further purpose of proving that to play the way Rodgers wants you are better off with your hotshot youngsters than with the burned outs of yesteryear. They are more determined to make, more open to change, more willing to learn.

And so we segue into the opening section again. Is it possible that in order to make his team tick Rodgers must remove it's 'scouse heartbeat'? With Jamie Carragher having fallen down the pecking order behind the now guaranteed starters Skrtel and Agger and with Coates being called upon in the big matches his time is all but done. As unpopular as it might be [and granted it is terribly unfortunate in light of his 600th appearance] but for me the biggest hindrance moving forward with Rodgers' system of play is the 600 appearance almighty colossus and captain, Steven Gerrard. I recently touched on this rather extensively in another thread and for the second season in a row I am left thinking is it really in our best interests to have Gerrard in midfield? In my humble opinion it is a flat out NO and considering our limitations in front of goal and our lack of options it should be a no brainer.

For Rodgers' plans to come together we must move forward with the idea that the system is the star and that no one is bigger than it. And for me playing Steven Gerrard in midfield upsets the balance of the whole midfield. For my money you simply must work with what you have, make the most of your resources and above all we must plan for the future. We won't win the league this season bar a series of miracles so it is that much more important to build the foundation for the seasons ahead when challenging for the title (and trophies) is not only a possibility but a priority. Sadly - and inevitably - Steven Gerrard will not be apart of that future and we should start preparing for it by using the players that will. In a possession dominating team the midfield is key and balance is more important than individual talent. Steven Gerrard is beyond the shadow of a doubt the best Liverpool player I have seen. I'm not fit to pass judgement on times past - but considering the sheer volume of experts and former players who claim he is the best Liverpool player of all time it would be foolish to rule it out. But even though Steven Gerrard is the best player the club has seen in the past 20 years. He is not a midfield playmaker, he never was and in the twilight years of his career it's an overwhelming sensation that he never will be. He plays with more characteristics of an aging striker than a converted midfielder. Desperate for the winning goal, impatient and fearing the game passing him by he drops out of position to get involved with play (not too dissimilar to Samuel Eto'o on his return to Anfield) More importantly, even if his head was fully up for it, he doesn't have the legs for it any more. The Steven Gerrard that dragged Liverpool to the top in Europe, the Steven Gerrard who ran the length of the pitch and shot with such ferocious power that his right foot had to be registered as a lethal weapon is no more. Gerrard himself above all else seems to struggle accepting that. He plays with all the enthusiasm, spirit and drive of his younger self but he can't pull it off any longer. Gerrard was an example of pure, unadulturated natural talent. One of the greatest examples of honing skills to become world class. Gerrard as a youngster was someone who would make up his limitations with pure athleticism when he dashed out of position he could make it up. When he made a tackle in midfield and was then the first player back to clear it off the line against Everton it was obvious this was a young man who stood head and shoulders above. But he simply can't do that any longer. Prolonged and aggrivating injuries are taking their toll. His aging body doesn't recover as fast as it used to. And worst of all, we have only ourselves to blame for letting it get this far. Gerrard has put his body on the line for the club too often and for too long and now it's showing. And as a result I feel that we are not only letting Gerrard down but ourselves by persisting with this doomed attempt to preserve his career this way. Gerrard is still the most composed player we have, he showed with his hat-trick against Everton he is the best finisher in our team. If Rodgers wants to get the best out of Gerrard, add to our potency in front of goal and get the midfield to play after his own tune then I can't shake the feeling that all of this is best suited with Gerrard up top/out right or on the bench.

Lucas, Joe Allen and Nuri Sahin are as close to the ideal midfield you would want in the system Rodgers wants to play as we can get after 1 transfer window. Those 3 are all perfectly suited to the idea of 'death by football' and as I stated I find it absurd that we want to give that up. If the plan is to play possession football, in the process hitting upwards of 75% possession stats over 90 minutes. Taking it slow, resting in possession and drawing the opposition up the pitch, tire them out by having them chase the ball around and pounce when they let their guard down for just that one microsecond that Luis Suarez needs to bolt past them. In that scenario Nuri Sahin is almost unquantifiably better suited to the role than Steven Gerrard I would even argue that despite Rodgers' lack of faith that Jordan Henderson is much better suited to one touch passing, intense pressing and patience than Gerrard, even though Gerrard is a far superior player.

In order to move forward with the system then bringing in a short term replacement in january, playing Henderson in there or praying Lucas reaches match fitness in record time are the most logical choices. This would give us the midfield solidity, organization and patience needed to play this way. It would allow us to have our defenders, most effectively Agger and Johnson, into play by moving the ball quickly over short distances between our own players rather than always trying the final ball. If Rodgers is a man of possession and use of statistics then he will have to go with players who, despite accusations of "playing it safe", are more likely to make the right pass. If it means passing the ball between ourselves 20-30 times before hitting the window of opportunity then that is what we do, that is the purpose of the system.

For years Steven Gerrard was a one man show. Countless examples of him dragging the team from oblivion to victory. Cometh the hour - cometh the man. And in a sense it's understandable. After all he is the onlyplayer to score in the final of the League Cup, FA Cup, UEFA Cup and the European Cup. If you want to sum up Gerrard's career it starts with a list of achievements, memories and outstanding goals. You begin to count but no matter how much you try to convince yourself you've accounted for everything there's always another Gerrard moment that pops into your consciousness. And I don't think that Gerrard's influence can ever be underestimated as long as he plays for the club. For good or bad the legend of Steven Gerrard projects an image that Steven Gerrard the player is finding increasingly difficult to live up to.

If Brendan Rodgers fully intends to make his mark. If he is to be successful in getting Liverpool Football Club at all levels, from top to bottom to play the same way, to play as a collective rather than individuals and to get everyone pulling in the same directions. Then convincing the man, who has spent his peak years being Liverpool's individual saviour, to play a role as just another clog in the machine will no doubt be his biggest test.
What once was an impossibility is now fast approaching reality. A future without Steven Gerrard is coming and if the Alonso departure has taught us anything it's the terrible consequences that follow ehen you don't prepare for the impossible. If Rodgers is to become the man to take us forward he must be ready to make the hard calls and the sooner we start embracing it the sooner we will come to a solution. The days where Gerrard wins games at the death are all but over and I feel it's fundamental for our progress and potential to move forward. Rodgers must build his team around Suarez and set his system up to get the best out of him.
The era of Gerrard and Carragher as Liverpool's talismanic leaders is at an end and the time for Suarez & Co has come.


The King is dead. Long live the King.

[Mr Dilkington]

Excellent stuff.

[ivorbigun]

Excellent read and very thought provoking.

[Aristotle]

For good or bad the legend of Steven Gerrard projects an image that Steven Gerrard the player is finding increasingly difficult to live up to.

I would like to get this thought over with. A twofold problem now faces Brendan Rodgers and in true nature I will keep in touch with my cultural references.

The Curious Case of Nuri Sahin

Having read various threads and some comments in post-match threads I feel I have to stick up for Nuri Sahin before I get into things. For the interest of fairness I feel compelled to note I am not the most impartial of people on this subject. I am no doubt guilty of some confirmation bias and do not claim any sort of objectivity, seeing as I've been slightly in love with him since 2005, bar a period of quite embarassing and downright petty feelings after his transfer to Real Madrid (but I assume that's a feeling many can relate to).
I first saw him at the U-17 World Cup that year . Initially I had decided to watch it because of John Goossens (actually I'm still quite bitter about him never reaching the potential to become the player I saw but c'est la vie). But luckily I found someone else. Nuri Sahin was just outstanding, playing as more of a #10 in that tournament, but irregardless I finally had someone to replace the void in my football heart that Redondo had left. Finally a left footed midfielder with the grace and elegance of the finest dancers and the somehow mystical aura of doing everything just right, making things appear easy under pressure that I couldn't even contemplate doing in my own backyard.

I've followed his career pretty much ever since. I saw his debut for Turkey (purely by chance, planned to watch the Germans and it was at the Ataturk so I couldn't not watch it). The first time he showed his potential on the big stage was on the final day of the 2005/2006 season against Bayern. At the tender age of 17, he had an outstanding game. Setting up 2 goals for the cult hero that is Jan Koller, terrorising Bayern's midfield and very memorably making veteran defender Willy Sagnol fall back on his arse with a piece of brilliant close control. He was also unafraid to take players on and shoot from a distance and his passing was a thing of beauty to behold, especially when factoring in his young age. I then saw the occasional game whenever I could. I even saw him play for Feyenoord when I was with my family in 2007. Keeping a close eye on his career ever since; half genuine interest, half pure unadulturated smugness of the 'I told you so'.

Then in his final 2 seasons with Dortmund I really started paying attention. Thanks to the guidance of people much more educated in the beautiful I genuinely started to appreciate his skills. Sahin was the footballing equivelant of a teenage crush developing to a full on romance. For years he'd always stood out in a crowd, I could never really explain why he just did so. Like the girl you don't know but spent your teenage years wanting to and finally growing up and having the nerve to do so. I guess it speaks volumes of my character to draw parallels between footballers and women, but there's enough Freudian discussions in here to last for a few more weeks until we get to that. At the time Jürgen Klopp was stamping his brand of football on the club and Sahin played a big part in that.

As a player for Dortmund (and Feyenoord during his year long loan there) Sahin played as the transitional midfielder. They played a high pressing, extremely mobile game which was built on direct play. Schmelzer and Pizszcek bombarded forward every single time the ball was won, challenging Dani Alves at times for most runs down the wing from full back position. On the wings Kuba and Grosskreutz were like having two Dirk Kuyts ... well except Grosskreutz runs more. In the #10 it was either Kagawa or Götze, highly mobile, hard working and always running into channels. Up front he had Barrios as a relative target man and then playing in any of the 'front 3' or up top the incredible Robert Lewandowski. This meant that every time Dortmund were in possession Sahin had acres of space and 6-7 players doing the hard work. In short, it's not a lack of dedication as many have claimed it is, for the lack of a better term, a career spent being the only one who takes it slow.

When Sahin was in possession it meant that getting the ball from the defence to the front players in as short a time as possible. That included anything from surging runs, off the ball movement as Hummels or Subotic ran forward, neat one touch passes with Bender/Kehl/Götze/Kagawa and more often than not it was taking his time to find the right pass and playing with team mates who ran themselves to the ground every single game. If the pass was off, it was alright as there were on average 3 or more players who would chase the pass down. There are no overhit passes, only races to the ball.

And this is not limited to Nuri Sahin in the PL. Look at Shinji Kagawa who is having a very rough time adjusting to life in Manchester. If you go look at Dortmund's win over Bayern in the DFB-Pokal and compare the then player who sodomized CL finalists Bayern München and compare him to the one who is struggling to get into any sort of rythm with Manchester, where he is playing with lethargic players like Carrick and Scholes. A master of playing behind the striker, running into channels, winning the ball high up the pitch and breaking at teams with pace - in doing so scoring 13 goals and an additional 8 assists in 29 league games. He now looks a shadow of his former self, being asked to play a slower game with less mobile and less fit players.

But make no mistake about it, Nuri Sahin is indeed an excellent footballer. I'm going to handpick a quote from the excellent Michael Cox of Zonal Marking because it perfectly suits my agenda. He said this of Sahin after the 2010/2011 season:

Playing as part of a fashionable double pivot in midfielder, Sahin was frequently the driving force in Dortmund’s excellent displays. A busy player but also technically superb, the Turkey international is a complete midfielder – you could ask him to hold, to play a box-to-box role or work as a playmaker, and you’d still be sure of a good performance. Sahin plays clever passes rather than spectacular ones – he moves forward and looks to slide the ball through the defence with his stronger left foot, and his quick thinking has been crucial in Dortmund’s transitions on the break. He also came up with some important goals, notably excellent strikes home and away against Bayern.

One would assume this was pretty close to the ideal description of a midfielder playing a vital part in a possesion based side. Someone who is great on the ball and sees the value in making the right pass. Also aiding in the attack, his movement means he chips in with goal and his left foot gives a nice addition - because let's face it, who doesn't love a left footed goal from distance? And this is something I have touched on previously. Nuri Sahin seems to understand the value of keeping possession and during his time at Dortmund, seemed to have a wonderful feeling for the golden ratio of short and long passes. Yes I am biased towards him as a player but I am also very keen on the idea of the system delivering, rather than the brilliance of the individual. From what we have seen this season, despite Sahin's inconsistency there has always been a shift in momentum when Sahin has been replaced by Shelvey. With Allen and Sahin we are much more efficient, cold and patient. Those two could pass it to each other and the likes of Coates and Agger all day and not get bored. Because they are all keenly aware that every calculated pass will, especially in a league full of hotheads like the PL, draw the opposition out of position as they get frustrated by being kept out of the game [case study, Quagliarella brace against Chelsea].

Nuri Sahin started his career brilliantly. He holds more 'youngest player to ...' records than any player in his club & country's history. He captained Borussia Dortmund during their league winning season (Kehl was out injured for most of the season) and was voted Bundesliga Player of the Season in the process. However his season at Real Madrid left a lot to be desired and he is currently struggling with form. In there is a real player, someone who has experience with leadership and more importantly he is one of the few players in our squad who has won a league championship, possibly the only one doing so as underdogs going into the season (Dortmund finished the season before 5th and 13 points behind league winners Bayern).
If properly managed Rodgers can stop the curious case of Nuri Sahin who at a young age was old beyond his years but has transitionally deteriorated with age. We must to everything we can to makes sure that this run of bad luck was simply hibernation. In Sahin we have a potentially excellent player who we must utilize to our advantage.
And if Rodgers is to get the best out of Nuri Sahin and imprint his system of possession, patience and composure then he needs to adress the elephant in the room and the latter part of his twofold problem.

Dr. Gerrard or: How I learned to stop worrying and love possession

Steven Gerrard, at this stage in his career, simply doesn't seem suited to play possession football and, very understandably, does not give the impression of a player who will give up everything that made him the player he is, to take a back seat. The role of the hero is very rewarding - a reality where someone else plays protagonist must keep him up at night. For years now I've always got that feeling about Gerrard that he either doesn't trust his team mates or gets filled with uncontrollable insecurity that the game is passing him by and he's being made redundant. More worryingly Gerrard hasn't got the legs to make up for his brainfarts and periods of impulsive nature. In a sense actively trying to counter-act the process, he is making himself more redundant to the system doing so.
Now as I have previously stated on numerous occasions I think Gerrard is still the best midfield player we have. He is still capable of producing moments of jaw dropping magic, but sadly we can't set up every week counting on it. One can only assume that this is a huge worry for Rodgers. His midfield 3 are the foundation for everything, from winning the ball back quickly, to quickly make the transition from defence to attack and above all else, stay organized. Can he convince Steven Gerrard to tow the line, if it is even possible? Can Rodgers get Gerrard to accept a role which goes against everything that made him who he is. Will Rodgers have it in him to move Gerrard to another position or failing that put him on the bench [if only to rest]. Gerrard might still be the best midfielder in the team, but it's showing more and more that he's not the best midfielder for this system. Joe Allen and Nuri Sahin look in recent games painfully uncomfortable playing the roles they are. Roles that one could easily make a claim for they wouldn't have to play, were it not for Gerrard's lack of mobility and pace, the very characters that once defined him. And for me personally, a midfield without Gerrard was always going to be an inevitability. But as the season progresses I can't shake the feeling that if we persist with this attempt to have 2 players give up a part of their game, to help maintain the player that should be taking on the added responsibility, we will suffer for it. Both in short term results and a missed opportunity to establish the foundations for the future.

Allen and Sahin offer a, potentially, wonderful sense of balance and co-operation. When trying to describe it I can't overcome the cliché of the brain hemispheres. Allen's right foot is methodical, logical and by the book. Sahin's left foot has spacial awareness, creativity and imagination. Throw in the wonderful Lucas Leiva who perfectly balances both and you've got yourself a mouthwatering prospect. As much as I hate repeating myself these 3 brilliant footballers have everything in their arsenal to become Brendan Rodgers' midfield 'triumvirate' for the next 5-7 years. They represent everything I imagine Rodgers' footballing philosophy being about. Hungry for success, eager to learn, determined to overcome hardship, comfortable on the ball, hard working off it and all of them great team players. They make the right decisions, they pass the ball about quickly and efficiently and they are not deterred by failure or adversity. They are incredibly courageous for their relative youth and all have experience vast beyond their characteristic baby faces.

Bearing that in mind I am quite confuzzled by the way we play. I keep coming back to Einstein's definition of insanity. The way we play is effectively doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Rodgers is treading a fine line line with the current midfield set-up and even though limited by a thin squad, he often seems to make things more complex than they are.
How he handles this situation will be crucial both in the long and short term, both might be dependant on his willingness to make the tough decisions. In Steven Gerrard he has a potential weapon of mass destruction. But as with any force of this calibre there is the threat of self-destruction. With Gerrard on board we have both the threat of deterrence in our opposition's minds and in our own play the potential for unstoppable destruction - but if wrongfully handled Gerrard could also become a weapon that could much like the title suggest, see us as Major Kong did, straddle the weapon to our own demise.

[L666KOP]

Awsome writing mate.

Getting the ball from defence to attack as quickly as possible.
I picked that out in his thread earlier mate, we're pedestrian.

Fantastic piece, really, really enjoyed it.
Thanks.

[AFX]

Thanks so much for writing that.

[Chip Evans]

That piece is a peach. Bookmarked for future re-read, thanks.

[Kansti]

I love this thread, was an excellent read.  :lick in

[Malaysian Kopite]

Great piece Anton.

[Ycuzz]

Bumping this from page 2.

Good read this.

[wasp29]

After some interaction with people I feel I should clarify a few things:
The somewhat loose and rambling portion of this thread can be explained by the lack of a definite conclusion. It was initially intended as a trilogy of thoughts and it still is. The plan was to set the play in motion, then set the stage for what we have on our hands and then reach some sort of a conclusion on the prospect of the future. However after seeing only Joe Allen, Oussama Assaidi and Fabio Borini come in as players that Brendan Rodgers want and the (somewhat limited) overhaul of the summer I simply felt it not only unfair but also unconclusive to set forth any sort of conclusion before a scenario presents itself in which judgement can be passed.

Rodgers was not backed sufficiently near the end of the transfer window, players left and weren't replaced and thusly he has had to rely on youth and fringe players, most (if not all) of whom were in one way or another subject to attempts bringing forth the end of their respective times at Liverpool. Until we see definitive movement in terms of players coming in and going out, how successful the squad rotation of the limited squad will fare and so on.


But until then I have attempted to put forth my understanding of the philosophy and style of play Brendan Rodgers has tried to implement at the club and what the foundations he has to work with are and trying to draw some temporary conclusions on the work he has done so far. In the meantime I'm working on another piece that should bridge the gap and better sum up Rodgers' style of play.

I found the opening post a fantastic read and thought prevoking. My only issue is the above statement that rodgers was let down at the end of the window. I realise with the system that having onlyborini as cover for suarez would have been ok due to him only playing 1 striker. However , it was obvious that he would be letting carroll go from day 1 , so why not bring another striker in straight away. It was made clear by the attempt to sign dempsey that he felt he needed an extra front man. Perhaps you will say he needed funds cleared by carrolls wages off the bill but perhaps the money spent on asaidi and sahins loan fee would have been better spent on getting dempsey straight away .Asaidi was nearly 3m and according to reports sahin loan fee alone was 5m, which would easily have covered the 6m fulham wanted.I have also watched sahin closely during his career and think he is a terrific footballer , but as you seemed to have enough midfield players there already the forward positions should have been priority ,especialy having already let bellamy, maxi and kuyt leave.

[Aristotle]

I found the opening post a fantastic read and thought prevoking. My only issue is the above statement that rodgers was let down at the end of the window. I realise with the system that having onlyborini as cover for suarez would have been ok due to him only playing 1 striker. However , it was obvious that he would be letting carroll go from day 1 , so why not bring another striker in straight away. It was made clear by the attempt to sign dempsey that he felt he needed an extra front man. Perhaps you will say he needed funds cleared by carrolls wages off the bill but perhaps the money spent on asaidi and sahins loan fee would have been better spent on getting dempsey straight away .Asaidi was nearly 3m and according to reports sahin loan fee alone was 5m, which would easily have covered the 6m fulham wanted.I have also watched sahin closely during his career and think he is a terrific footballer , but as you seemed to have enough midfield players there already the forward positions should have been priority ,especialy having already let bellamy, maxi and kuyt leave.

Well as for that I decided to leave it out. There are plenty of other threads and frankly I wanted to focus solely on the footballing aspect. I don't think it's a big secret how I feel about the person handling the deals and frankly when I say that he was let down in the end it is fairly general as to over the summer.

We technically have not replaced Kuyt yet, despite it being clear as early as November last year that he was willing to commit to the club, the club wasn't willing to extend his contract and the then manager wasn't giving him games so it was only inevitable. People had mixed feelings about the Dirkster but irregardless of how you rate him as a player, replacing him with the potential of Suso and Sterling was highly risky. Assaidi could theoretically be counted as Bellamy's replacement but with all due respect to the lad, is still a step down from Bellamy who was easily amongst our best players last season. Carroll being surplus to requirements was pretty much dead on from June. The whole situation is quite odd to say the least. Rodgers obviously has faith in Borini and in a sense he got his man. Whether he could've gotten two strikers for the same fee, we'll never know. But at board level bringing in no recognized goalscorer was a failure, the allocation of funds will always be down to opinions. We concluded our deals very late, Borini came 6 weeks into Rodgers' tenure as manager and Allen, Assaidi and Sahin all came within 3 weeks of the window closing.


The whole thing reeks of arrogance and sloppiness. We were so sure of getting Dempsey that we stalled the deal too long. Our public hounding of players didn't really help our position in terms of selling players. Now how much of this has to do with Rodgers I don't know and speculation really gets us nowhere. However I feel it's crucial that we get some experience into the squad in january and regardless of the aim to play aesthetic football we need some pricks in the squad. Someone who will play dirty. I hate the notion of it and on a personal level I think the reluctance to let go of it is holding England back. But at this moment we lack backbone, we get bullied around - mainly because the ones who went flying into tackles (i.e. Gerrard and Carragher) can't cover the ground anymore and would just pick up cards for no reason doing so. With the public image turning for Suarez I think it's vital that we find someone to play the villain. Because if we are to start winning the games that we must, we need more people of the Suarez and Bellamy kind who will, as someone quipped so fantastically, punt their grandmothers down a flight of stairs if it gives them a 1 second headstart to the ball.

[wasp29]

Well as for that I decided to leave it out. There are plenty of other threads and frankly I wanted to focus solely on the footballing aspect. I don't think it's a big secret how I feel about the person handling the deals and frankly when I say that he was let down in the end it is fairly general as to over the summer.

We technically have not replaced Kuyt yet, despite it being clear as early as November last year that he was willing to commit to the club, the club wasn't willing to extend his contract and the then manager wasn't giving him games so it was only inevitable. People had mixed feelings about the Dirkster but irregardless of how you rate him as a player, replacing him with the potential of Suso and Sterling was highly risky. Assaidi could theoretically be counted as Bellamy's replacement but with all due respect to the lad, is still a step down from Bellamy who was easily amongst our best players last season. Carroll being surplus to requirements was pretty much dead on from June. The whole situation is quite odd to say the least. Rodgers obviously has faith in Borini and in a sense he got his man. Whether he could've gotten two strikers for the same fee, we'll never know. But at board level bringing in no recognized goalscorer was a failure, the allocation of funds will always be down to opinions. We concluded our deals very late, Borini came 6 weeks into Rodgers' tenure as manager and Allen, Assaidi and Sahin all came within 3 weeks of the window closing.


The whole thing reeks of arrogance and sloppiness. We were so sure of getting Dempsey that we stalled the deal too long. Our public hounding of players didn't really help our position in terms of selling players. Now how much of this has to do with Rodgers I don't know and speculation really gets us nowhere. However I feel it's crucial that we get some experience into the squad in january and regardless of the aim to play aesthetic football we need some pricks in the squad. Someone who will play dirty. I hate the notion of it and on a personal level I think the reluctance to let go of it is holding England back. But at this moment we lack backbone, we get bullied around - mainly because the ones who went flying into tackles (i.e. Gerrard and Carragher) can't cover the ground anymore and would just pick up cards for no reason doing so. With the public image turning for Suarez I think it's vital that we find someone to play the villain. Because if we are to start winning the games that we must, we need more people of the Suarez and Bellamy kind who will, as someone quipped so fantastically, punt their grandmothers down a flight of stairs if it gives them a 1 second headstart to the ball.

Do you feel that rogers was chosen for the reason that he would not rock the boat.I am not saying this as if he is a yes man but i remember reading that martinez said he felt that he would not be given full control at the club. It was quite a public courting so the liverpool board must have fancied him.Rogers gives me the impression that he is gratefull to even be there.Thats not a dig as managing liverpool is a fantastic honour but a top class manager like mourinho would have said yes , this is great to be here but you should be just as thankfull you have got me.

[Aristotle]

Do you feel that rogers was chosen for the reason that he would not rock the boat.I am not saying this as if he is a yes man but i remember reading that martinez said he felt that he would not be given full control at the club. It was quite a public courting so the liverpool board must have fancied him.Rogers gives me the impression that he is gratefull to even be there.Thats not a dig as managing liverpool is a fantastic honour but a top class manager like mourinho would have said yes , this is great to be here but you should be just as thankfull you have got me.

I wouldn't say that. I would say that most likely what the owners (or whoever interviewed him) saw was a man of realisitic expectations with, borderline, unrealistic ambitions. There's not a doubt in my mind that Rodgers took the Liverpool job to stay here for a long time. If he was someone with more "realistic" ambitions he would've stayed another year at Swansea and waited for a mid-table level job and then in 10 years gone for the big job. Rodgers is fully aware of the size of the task at hand and I think he has almost megalomanic belief in his own abilities [on of the things I like most about him]. He doesn't just want to be a great manager. There are plenty who have travelled and won things, Mourinho is probably the best example in recent times. But Rodgers doesn't strike me as the type. I think he loves the idea of Shankly and *enters bombshelter* Ferguson. To take a club down on it's luck with all the potential and expectations of a club much better suited for the task and come away from it with his own empire.

He strikes me very much as someone who is willing to put in the hard work now to reap the rewards later. I believe he intends to make his legacy here and is smart enough to play along with FSG because [and I mean this in very much a positive way] he can make himself indispensable here on the footballing side. He's going to outlast Ian Ayre, John Henry and Tom Werner - they just don't know it yet. He will be their man as long as it takes but when they time comes if they haven't gotten their shit in order or sold up then he will stake his claim. On the inside I have little doubt he is their man, he will go along with Ayre's "plans" and he is smart enough to keep the owners eating out of the palm of his hand. Things might not be ideal but I have this feeling that Rodgers (along with the people brought in) can do what Rafa never could. Because Rodgers doesn't have to fight for survival and expose potential bankruptcy he can control the footballing side under the guise of playing along.

Call it a hunch but I think Brendan Rodgers was just the right amount of crazy to take this job and in terms of experience (or lack thereof) this was the ideal time to take over. His stock is at a career high, he can afford to make mistakes due to the circumstances and he has the know-how and ambition to get over it all. Of course this is all speculation but I very much like the idea of Rodgers, even if I disagree at times about the method of execution I am fully behind the man. For my part anyways, when thinking for the future, always back the man with the plan.

[Aristotle]

Excellent stuff.

Excellent read and very thought provoking.

Awsome writing mate.

Getting the ball from defence to attack as quickly as possible.
I picked that out in his thread earlier mate, we're pedestrian.

Fantastic piece, really, really enjoyed it.
Thanks.

Thanks so much for writing that.

That piece is a peach. Bookmarked for future re-read, thanks.

I love this thread, was an excellent read.  :lick in

Great piece Anton.

Bumping this from page 2.

Good read this.

Just to get it out of the way. I appreciate the positive feedback, I really really do. I felt at times like a Bond villain ranting about world domination and grand schemes to an empty audience. I will hopefully wrap up the rest sometimes around mid-december and then I will do a wrap up post-January and then a de facto part IV after the season to see how much of this has panned out, how things have evolved and as always with new information and data adjust the final conclusion.

But for the moment I am very positive and since I have 3 essays to turn in over the next 16 days my mind is full of football stuff and I will no doubt throw material in here constantly over the next two weeks as a result of needing to focus elsewhere!

[redtel]

Aristotle- I have been searching for info about Sahin since he signed in Aug. Grateful for this piece.

I cannot believe a young lad who has captained a Bundesliga Champions team can fail to make an impression in the PL. You are right to link Gerrard in this piece as Sahin looks a different player when the two are not on the same pitch.

After Sunderland away where he didn't play he started with the young boys against the Young Boys and had an impressive game in a fine win. He sat out the next game against the mancs with a view to starting again with the youngsters at WBA. He took on the challenge and scored both goals in an excellent performance. Maybe he is in awe of Gerrard, unlikely though,having played as Captain for Dortmund, rather he finds he is not on the same wavelength. Sahin and Gerrard look opposites to me in many ways.

Whatever, Rodgers needs to get the most out of Sahin somehow.He has talent no doubt. The article  said that he could had been the only one at Dortmund who could play slow as there were 6 or 7 runners around him. This could be a reason why Mourinho loaned him out as no player can take it easy in a PL game as it then becomes 10 v11. He does still amble back towards his own goal which is taboo in this gladiator league.

On Sunday he was the only player brought off by Rodgers which was unusual. Chelsea made their 3 subs.He would surely be suited to play against a passing team like Wigan on Saturday but will Rodgers persist with the same 3 who started at Stamford Bridge.

Look forward to your part IV as I feel Rodgers can only be judged fairly after a full season,with the second half hopefully making up for a stuttering start ,not helped by a transfer masterplan that Baldrick would have been envious of.