Author Topic: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.  (Read 5237 times)

Offline coolfire

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2007, 03:34:29 pm »
This building football teams thing is expensive.

Rafa needs money.

I think that as long as he starts to really focus his spending, as he did this past summer, on 'bigger' signings above 10m who will be game-changers like Babel and Torres then we'll start to see the looks of a title-winning team.
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Offline sattapaartridge

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2007, 04:01:42 pm »
how much do you think - realistically - we can get for both kuyt and voronin?
did you know that 10 x 2 and 11 x 2 have the same answer?

Offline SMD

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2007, 04:28:50 pm »
Exactly.

A big squad is nice, but at the end of the day, you can only have 11 men on the pitch at any given time, and only 5 subs in domestic competition.

I'd rather have, for example, a world class player on the pitch, with my nan sat on the bench waiting to replace him, than an average player in both positions, which is what we have now in many cases.

People complain about our lack of funds, but what we have had has been spread a bit too thin in my opinion. We've sacrificed the strength of the team for the depth of the squad.

If you look at Man Utd for example, they've got about 10-12 players they've paid huge fees for and then the rest of their first team squad is mostly made up of players from their youth system. The likes of Brown, O'Shea and Fletcher may not be world beaters, but they're ample cover, and they allow Old Whiskey Nose to go and spend the bulk of his money improving the first team. Their squad players may be worse than ours, but their regular starters are certainly better. Case in point; last saturday, Man Utd had almost all of their money on the pitch, with only 2 expensive signings on the bench and none outside the 16 man squad. Our starting XI by comparison was a lot less expensively assembled, but we had over £50m worth of talent outside the starting lineup, about half of which never even made the 16.

At some point in the near future we're going to have to start selling a lot of these mediocre players and replacing them with those of much greater quality, and that task could have been a lot easier than it's going to be had we spent a little more on a little fewer players in the past few seasons, in my opinion.

See, you contradict yourself. You point out that they have the likes of Brown, O'Shea and Fletcher to supplement their squad. We didn't have those players breaking through. Potter, Welsh and Whitbread were supposed to be the best of their crop. They were incredibly average and only Mellor did anything for the first team. So we had to go and buy the players just to cover the places vacated by Diao, Diouf, Smicer, etc.

And did you forget our injury crisis? If we had 20 players in our squad, we'd have been fucked.
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Offline BCCC

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2007, 04:29:12 pm »

Some good points in the original post, Rafa does like to experiment. He is also very shrewd with his transfers financially and also knows when to cut his losses. In comparison Houllier just used to collect players like Panini stickers.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2007, 04:41:54 pm »
For me there's no contest. Rafa has a better balanced squad. I don't think people understand how important that is. That is the reason why we've signed Nunez, Josemi etc and they have all served a purpose. Under GH we seemed to buy players, decent enough players to be honest, but then we tried to fit them in somewhere. Now we sign players for a purpose and when that purpose is served, we move on.

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Offline Robinred

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2007, 05:18:22 pm »
I still believe Spanishfan and Cuppatea have a valid point, and posted something similar last week (a comparison between our strength in depth and Man Utd's superior first 11).

And the point about Rafa's record of getting it right more often with defenders and m/fielders (than with strikers) is also well made. Kuyt and Berbatov cost similar amounts. At the time it was strongly rumoured that Jol wanted Kuyt. Like SF, I'd love to turn the clock back and have gotten Berbatov instead - lazy or not. I said so at the time and my opinion hasn't changed; on the contrary it's been reinforced  by everything I've seen.
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Offline redpool

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2007, 06:15:31 pm »

"At some point in the near future we're going to have to start selling a lot of these mediocre players and replacing them with those of much greater quality, and that task could have been a lot easier than it's going to be had we spent a little more on a little fewer players in the past few seasons, in my opinion."
[/quote]

I disagree!  I believe we had to strengthen the depth of the squad before we could increase the upper level quality.  Especially with the players we had when Rafa took over, and the amount of money he was been given in the previous transfer windows.  I believe he started the upgrade of "top class" players with the signings of Torres and Babel.  I hope at this point, as you suggest, he starts to unload the "mediocre" players (who somehow helped us win our fifth European Championship and a runner-up spot), with more world class players.  I am hoping he will be able to do this because of the depth in numbers of the squad, and because the many 17 and 18 year old players he has signed will be ready to replace the "mediocre depth" players he sells.  That way we should have both quality and quantity and then can truly challenge for the league title on an every year basis.

My concerns are the willingness of our new owners to spend the necessary money, and/or their wisdom in understanding what really needs to be done.  I believe if Rafa deems the owners are not committed, or they botch up transfer proceedings, he will leave of his own choosing.  Even though I believe we have the power to attract another top quality manager, if our owners don't get it right with Rafa, they are giving me warning they are not willing to take the obligatory steps to be at the highest level, no matter what new man they make manager.

Offline lfcmaster

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2007, 07:15:53 pm »
rafa's biggest mistake so far playing 4-3-3 against reading
so what does he do against chelsea 4-3-3 again

a lot of players have lost form and confidence
we rely to much on torres and gerrard
voronin one of the worst players i have seen play for liverpool
(you can see why he was free)

Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2007, 08:04:18 pm »
I am not sure Rafa covered himself in glory in terms of identifying squad / team problems. Day 1 it was lack of goals, width issues and an overall lack of creativity. We still have many of those issues and while we are getting there we again seem to be struggling to score goals in the league. Will we pass the 60 goal mark this season? I am not too sure.

The main issue I have is we tried to do what Chelsea did with a much smaller wallet by having two starting players for each position. You cannot do that when you only have 20m - 25m to spend every year.

Always thought we could have strengthen the squad by adding 1 - 2 class acts every  year and with their inclusion the original starter would be forced to become a squad player for a year or two until he gets weary & moves on. The valuable fringe players that have come in should have costed us nought via freebies. Many did cost nought but a lot of them costed 3m - 6m plus. All of a sudden over 3 years we have spent 30m - 40m on players who really never got past the revolving door....Bellamy, Momo, Morientes, Crouch, Kuyt, etc. While some were revolved right out the door within 12 months others are biding their time but most feel its only time as they appear not to be the missing piece.

Might be a little harsh but if you took our overall spend of 125m and split it between 6 or 8 starters and 10 - 12 fringe players instead of 30 plus players at this stage we would be further down the path Rafa has us on.



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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2007, 08:50:26 pm »
The main problem with Benitez is his signings. Some of the ones he has made have been very poor. Liverpool would had been much better off if Benitez had concentrated on quality well known players rather than quantity, especially when he seems unable to find bargains.

I disagree. Rafa has always signed players for a specific purpose. He's spent on his key players and much less on those who came to fill a role. The only real mistake he's done is Morientes, but that was a calculated risk and one worth to take. Nunez, Pellegrino, Kromkamp, Gonzalez and Josemi didn't shine for us, but they were short term solutions.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline JP-65

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2007, 09:18:02 pm »
I disagree. Rafa has always signed players for a specific purpose. He's spent on his key players and much less on those who came to fill a role. The only real mistake he's done is Morientes, but that was a calculated risk and one worth to take. Nunez, Pellegrino, Kromkamp, Gonzalez and Josemi didn't shine for us, but they were short term solutions.

I know most posters think that Morientes was a "mistake", but his 1 1/2 seasons here coincided with a Champions League win (I know he was cup tied, but he was training, and around the team...so had influence) and our best points season for a long time.

By the simple measurement of goals he wasn't a success, but IMO the team seemed to play better when he was in it.

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2007, 11:34:22 pm »
I know most posters think that Morientes was a "mistake", but his 1 1/2 seasons here coincided with a Champions League win (I know he was cup tied, but he was training, and around the team...so had influence) and our best points season for a long time.

By the simple measurement of goals he wasn't a success, but IMO the team seemed to play better when he was in it.

Morientes was a good signing that didn't quite work out. It was still the right thing to do. Morientes had shown before he came to us, and after he left, that he can score goals on a regular basis. If we fail with a player like Morientes, it's easy to find a new buyer. A calculated risk, but no success.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline Tuckwoor

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2007, 11:56:34 pm »
voronin one of the worst players i have seen play for liverpool
(you can see why he was free)

We have had MUCH worse players to be honest.

Offline TSC

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Re: Rafa's ability to identify problems and sort them out.
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2007, 12:15:12 am »
I know most posters think that Morientes was a "mistake", but his 1 1/2 seasons here coincided with a Champions League win (I know he was cup tied, but he was training, and around the team...so had influence) and our best points season for a long time.

By the simple measurement of goals he wasn't a success, but IMO the team seemed to play better when he was in it.

So he was a good luck signing?

Let's get more of those eh.

Fuck me.