Topic: Some insight and perspective on Jurgen Klopp

[EUROKINGS]

I posted this in the tactics thread but a couple of people suggested I post this on the main board.

A red went over to the Dortmund Reddit page to ask some questions and it's an interesting read.

https://www.reddit.com/r/borussiadortmund/comments/5s2qpy/about_jurgen_klopp/

Certainly perked me up a bit.

[Medellin]

"I'd say give him time to build his squad. Honestly, there are very few players in the current Liverpool side that I would want at BVB today."

The first reply is quite damning.

Time & patience is what is required.

[ToneLa]

That's a boss read, cheers for linking

It is nice to understand the opinions from fans who had Klopp for much longer than we have. There's interesting points, I particularly agree with this:

Anyone that doesn't buy into Cult of Klopp, should be sold immediately, no matter how good. Klopp is a decent strategist, but he's really a human manager who makes his teams overachieve with determination and morale on top of solid fundamentals. While his teams can sometimes overachieve massively when they believe, dips in morale and unity will affect his teams a hell of a lot.

Also, if a player looks a bit shit, if Klopp believes in them, it's worth being patient. Aubameyang, Lewandowski, Mkhitaryan, Schmelzer, they weren't great out the gate and took a while to start become the players they could be. Of course there were cases like Kagawa who came hot out the gate, and cases like Immobile where Klopp's trust wasn't repaid, but by and large, if he sees something in a player, it's worth giving them consistent chances even if they are rough around the edges.

I think that's wisdom right there. Some great perspectives from the Dortmund fans!

[jillcwhomever]

It's a great read this, a lot of these Dortmund fans speak a lot of common sense. It also gives a perspective of how others see this club. The most important message is it can take time to build a team, which is why we need to look long-term and not just short-term all the time.

[Saul Goodman]

Have you all just glossed over the posts in that thread that project a more worrying story. I am not rooted in either side of the argument but just for some perspective.

In my humble opinion and it makes me sad to say this out loud, Klopp had a great idea how to play football. But he is not a good coach. He is probably the most charismatic person in the soccer business, but he is not a good coach. The idea and his charisma were very good for a couple of seasons, but people found a remedy against it. They just defend very, very deep. Think of it like this: Have you played soccer yourself? The more legs in a confined space, the harder it becomes to get past them. Most soccer players need space to use their qualities. But Klopp presses the opposite team into their defense and it becomes harder and harder to defend. To achieve this goal, Klopps defense is standing very, very high and there is a looooot of space for the attackers to work with.

It works amazingly well against good teams, because they refuse to be pressed into their own half, but at the end of his BVB career, even the good teams chose a deep defense, making it harder against the good teams. Klopps style is physically very exhausting, so it becomes worse and worse season for season, because players start to burn out.

What I never understood was that Klopp could not see past his initial idea, change the style against weaker teams. It was basically the opposite, he pressed more and more, because pressing in his opinion is the best playmaker.

[Barneylfc∗]

   Taking_A_StrollNuri Sahin • 8h
Now that I know that he is injured, life seems to make sense thanks to you.

So the meaning of life is knowing the situation with Grujic 

Some really good responses in there.

[Medellin]

Not a good coach?

It's nice to see perspectives from the other side of of the fence,some not so good.
Good insight but you don't win league titles being a shite coach.

[jillcwhomever]

Have you all just glossed over the posts in that thread that project a more worrying story. I am not rooted in either side of the argument but just for some perspective.

So you decided to highlight the one negative post.

Having said that our position is different to Dortmund's so it doesn't mean it will end differently. In truth none of us know whether he will be able to lead us to where we all want to be. The project is just that, its an idea of how he develops the team. We don't know whether he will go the same way over here, because English football is different to German football. But what we need to be mindful about is it won't happen, without there being good and bad times, because that is football. This just gives us an idea of how he achieved the dream at a club like Dortmund which was a special case in Germany, a club that hadn't enjoyed any success in a long time.

We maybe a club of genuine success but the fact is we haven't won anything for a few years. Which means that sometimes you have try something a bit different. It is like the saying goes if you don't try something, you'll never know.

Also you highlighed a negative post, so I will highlight another one. The opinion that whatever happens he will leave this club in a better state, then when he came in. Let's just sit back and enjoy the ride.

[Sarge]

This is very interesting post and sums up a lot of what we have talked about.

I  think Emre Can is a Klopp kind of player. Klopp preferred robust fighters in the back and mid. Emre Can might be a bit shit, but he averages like 4 tackle attempts per 90'. Klopp rates that kind of thing. Tuchel likes his Dembele's, Guerreiro's and Mor's, Klopp liked his Kehl's, Bender's, Grosskreutz's and Kuba's. Tuchel likes his Bartra's, Klopp liked his Subotics. Not the most technically adept or flair players, but players who would run themselves into the dirt and commit, fight, contest, even if they weren't always the best at it. Even among attackers, Klopp preferred players with good teamwork and high workrate, rather than just explosive dribbles or 1v1 skills. Lewandowski, Kagawa, Gundogan, guys who could both support and use each other, cover the yards. Didn't matter if they had ability, if they didn't fit the unit. I can see why he wouldn't like Sturridge. Bit of a aloof selfish lazy shite sometimes the lad.

One thing about Klopp, he can be ruthless, and he does have favorites. He prefers to have his starting 11 to which he makes minor changes when needed. Some players will play all the time, while others will hardly play at all, and even a regular starter could be out of the plans next season. Generally, if he liked a player, they got opportunities even if they were a bit shit, until they grew into the team. If he felt a player wasn't needed for the future, but they were useful he might use them right up till end of season, and promptly sell them off and you'd wonder if that was smart, until that bit shit guy he insisted on using last season suddenly became a key player this season.

[El Lobo]

This is so fucking grim and so sad

[Sarge]

This is so fucking grim and so sad

Think so, i think its showing Klopp in a good light.

[El Lobo]

Think so, i think its showing Klopp in a good light.

Not the link, the fact that so many fans are already questioning him.

Honestly, if he's hounded out like they hounded out Rafa then I'm absolutely done with football.

[Durlmints]

I said it once, I'll say it again.

Klopps success, like many successes in other spaces like the economy, we're not just because the company/coach did great work, but also because all the factors around we're just right. This was true for the iPhone, it was true Klopp at Dortmund.

The BVB had to be bankrupt, and really really had for several years, for Klopp to be successfull.

Teams are made off humans, and we treat other teams differently, based on how we feel they rank in the world right now. You might say "but ou, they're so professional, can't they.." No! They can't, we're all human, there are so many things happening on the pitch, you don't do most of them conciously. You are driven by what others and you feel about the team that's opposed to you. That means that when you're big, teams park the bus and see what happens. Which is hard, and Klopp never really figured this out.

And why did he win all he did? Because at the time he didn't really have to. Dortmund was shit for years. Teams knew that when you play in Dortmund, it's second class at best, you can play football and try something here. Once it's clicked, dortmund steamrolled, and by the time teams realized what's happening (because this takes time to chance, see Leipzig and Hoffenheim in their promotion season immensly profiting from other teams not taking them as seriously as they did later), it already clicked, which meant that now teams didn't just have to adjust from attitude, but also tactically quite well, because to be honest, this level of Gegenpressingfooty was not known at the time.

This is what gave the three great years (interesting how it's almost always three great years with football), and from there it slowly went down. Now Klopp has the problem that not just a whole league learned how to play him, but they made a blueprint how you can at least be somewhat effective against a Klopp system.

Now pair that with Liverpool never really been the underdog, not like idK nottingham would be. People take Liverpool seriously, take Klopp seriously and this together with a bit of bad luck, m8, is enough.

I can't see Klopp winning the league anytime soon, maybe not ever anywhere.

But who knows, maybe if he takes a really shit club, but I don't know.

Think it's a bit harsh?

[Sarge]

Not the link, the fact that so many fans are already questioning him.

Honestly, if he's hounded out like they hounded out Rafa then I'm absolutely done with football.

Ahh yes get you now but yes i agree.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Not the link, the fact that so many fans are already questioning him.

Honestly, if he's hounded out like they hounded out Rafa then I'm absolutely done with football.

Same here. I still haven't forgiven some lot for abusing hiim the way they did. Everyone took him and what he did for granted.

[RK7]

Bit worrying, bits of that.

[Saul Goodman]

So you decided to highlight the one negative post.

There is a good deal more than one in that thread.

You should just sit in your echo chamber and let your thoughts be reinforced over and over without challenging anything. Why is it that I can't post something negative and trust that people reading it can use there own critical facilities to digest and analyse what they are reading. I know which side here is trying to push an agenda. Sadly this all seems like a microcosm of the world we are now living in.

[jillcwhomever]

Not the link, the fact that so many fans are already questioning him.

Honestly, if he's hounded out like they hounded out Rafa then I'm absolutely done with football.

The moment we are winning they will disappear again. I agree with your sentiments though it goes without saying how grim it will be, if that happens.

[Djimi Smicer34]

It's an interesting read but I'd like to think we're not at a point where some supporters feel the need to be reassured about Klopp's abilities and qualities as a manager.

And I find the assertion that he is not a good coach to be ridiculous myself but there you go. 

[Saul Goodman]

And I find the assertion that he is not a good coach to be ridiculous myself but there you go.

I am quite surprised that you were able to read the nasty negative things and still form your own opinion.

[killer-heels]

It's an interesting read but I'd like to think we're not at a point where some supporters feel the need to be reassured about Klopp's abilities and qualities as a manager.

And I find the assertion that he is not a good coach to be ridiculous myself but there you go. 

Its ridiculous. A good coach doesn't win leagues, cups and get into Champions League, Europa League finals if he doesn't have ability.

[lukeb1981]

Not the link, the fact that so many fans are already questioning him.

Honestly, if he's hounded out like they hounded out Rafa then I'm absolutely done with football.

spent yesterday evening thinking the same, all the clowns that wanted Rafa out,look what they got in the end ,Klopp needs time and some proper funds to get this squad flying,he couldn't bin them all in one go but this summer should see a hefty clear out.

[Sarge]

It's an interesting read but I'd like to think we're not at a point where some supporters feel the need to be reassured about Klopp's abilities and qualities as a manager.

And I find the assertion that he is not a good coach to be ridiculous myself but there you go. 

Pity is mate some do, the soft fanny types.

[ToneLa]

I am quite surprised that you were able to read the nasty negative things and still form your own opinion.

I was thinking the same about you! It's like you went looking for what suits your usual rhetoric we haven't interacted before, but when you use terms like echo chamber.. I can already imagine you will plonk me into that group.

The vast majority of that link is positive. Some of you, just can't stop being negative.

Nobody thinks you're on the fence, mate. Read the one I highlighted and tell me what you think. I dares ya

[Djimi Smicer34]

I am quite surprised that you were able to read the nasty negative things and still form your own opinion.

Every manager has flaws at the end of the day.

Nothing and no one can or will convince me that Jurgen Klopp is not the perfect fit for this club as manager, flaws and all.  I thought that long before we got him and that view has only been reinforced by what has happened since he took the job at Liverpool.  While I'd like us and him to have ideally done some things a bit differently with the benefit of hindsight (more depth in quality in the first-team squad for one), I'm not surprised by what he's done and I have no doubt he has a clear plan in mind to get us where he wants us to be, which may mean getting there has to be done with incremental steps rather than a giant leap. 

I like the way he thinks and sees the game, I like him and hope he's here for a long, long time.  There's no doubt we're in a rut at present, one we need to turn around quickly, but it's done nothing to affect my faith in him and the job he's doing here.  I can appreciate the insight that Dortmund supporters can offer of him but I don't how know any of them can honestly say he's got a charisma, can motivate players but isn't a good coach.  Sorry, that's ludicrous, you don't do what he did there without being a brilliant coach, let along a good one.

I don't think he's perfect, no manager is, but anyone who might be questioning him now needs their head testing.  He's going to make mistakes but I think progress has been made under him and I don't doubt that it will continue to be made.  It's not going to be straightforward but I can accept having to deal with short-term pain at times in order to achieve the long-term gain I think he and his philosophy represent for a club that badly needs direction.  He's in it for the long haul, keep the faith and belief in him and I believe he's capable of delivering on what we all want as supporters.

[jillcwhomever]

Every manager has flaws at the end of the day.

Nothing and no one can or will convince me that Jurgen Klopp is not the perfect fit for this club as manager, flaws and all.  I thought that long before we got him and that view has only been reinforced by what has happened since he took the job at Liverpool.  While I'd like us and him to have ideally done some things a bit differently (more depth in quality in the first-team squad for one), I'm not surprised by what he's done and I have no doubt he had a clear plan in mind to get us where he wants us to be, which may mean getting there has to be done with incremental steps rather than a giant leap. 

I like the way he thinks and sees the game, I like him and hope he's here for a long, long time.  There's no doubt we're in a rut at present, one we need to turn around quickly, but it's done nothing to affect my faith in him and the job he's doing here.  I can appreciate the insight that Dortmund supporters can offer of him but I don't know any of them can honestly say he's got a charisma, can motivate players but isn't a good coach.  Sorry, that's ludicrous, you don't do what he did there without being a brilliant coach, let along a good one.

I don't think he's perfect, no manager is, but anyone who might be questioning him now needs their head testing.  He's going to make mistakes but I think progress has been made under him and I don't doubt that it will continue to be made.  It's not going to be straightforward but I can accept having to deal with short-term pain at times in order to achieve the long-term gain I think he and his philosophy represent for a club that badly needs direction.  He's in it for the long haul, keep the faith and belief in him and I believe he's capable of delivering on what we all want as supporters.

 

[Medellin]

Every manager has flaws at the end of the day.

Nothing and no one can or will convince me that Jurgen Klopp is not the perfect fit for this club as manager, flaws and all.  I thought that long before we got him and that view has only been reinforced by what has happened since he took the job at Liverpool.  While I'd like us and him to have ideally done some things a bit differently (more depth in quality in the first-team squad for one), I'm not surprised by what he's done and I have no doubt he has a clear plan in mind to get us where he wants us to be, which may mean getting there has to be done with incremental steps rather than a giant leap. 

I like the way he thinks and sees the game, I like him and hope he's here for a long, long time.  There's no doubt we're in a rut at present, one we need to turn around quickly, but it's done nothing to affect my faith in him and the job he's doing here.  I can appreciate the insight that Dortmund supporters can offer of him but I don't know any of them can honestly say he's got a charisma, can motivate players but isn't a good coach.  Sorry, that's ludicrous, you don't do what he did there without being a brilliant coach, let along a good one.

I don't think he's perfect, no manager is, but anyone who might be questioning him now needs their head testing.  He's going to make mistakes but I think progress has been made under him and I don't doubt that it will continue to be made.  It's not going to be straightforward but I can accept having to deal with short-term pain at times in order to achieve the long-term gain I think he and his philosophy represent for a club that badly needs direction.  He's in it for the long haul, keep the faith and belief in him and I believe he's capable of delivering on what we all want as supporters.

 

Great post mate.

[Saul Goodman]

Every manager has flaws at the end of the day.

Nothing and no one can or will convince me that Jurgen Klopp is not the perfect fit for this club as manager, flaws and all.  I thought that long before we got him and that view has only been reinforced by what has happened since he took the job at Liverpool.  While I'd like us and him to have ideally done some things a bit differently with the benefit of hindsight (more depth in quality in the first-team squad for one), I'm not surprised by what he's done and I have no doubt he has a clear plan in mind to get us where he wants us to be, which may mean getting there has to be done with incremental steps rather than a giant leap. 

I like the way he thinks and sees the game, I like him and hope he's here for a long, long time.  There's no doubt we're in a rut at present, one we need to turn around quickly, but it's done nothing to affect my faith in him and the job he's doing here.  I can appreciate the insight that Dortmund supporters can offer of him but I don't how know any of them can honestly say he's got a charisma, can motivate players but isn't a good coach.  Sorry, that's ludicrous, you don't do what he did there without being a brilliant coach, let along a good one.

I don't think he's perfect, no manager is, but anyone who might be questioning him now needs their head testing.  He's going to make mistakes but I think progress has been made under him and I don't doubt that it will continue to be made.  It's not going to be straightforward but I can accept having to deal with short-term pain at times in order to achieve the long-term gain I think he and his philosophy represent for a club that badly needs direction.  He's in it for the long haul, keep the faith and belief in him and I believe he's capable of delivering on what we all want as supporters.

It must be a strange world for some people in this thread to find out I echo pretty much all of that post.

[Djimi Smicer34]

It must be a strange world for some people in this thread to find out I echo pretty much all of that post.

I think at the moment we're going through such a frustrating period that any criticism seems magnified.  I've no doubt there are idiots out there on Twitter who are moronic enough to be calling for a change but they should be ignored.

Questioning tactics and selection choices is fine but I can't give an opinion that asserts Klopp isn't a good coach any credence.  Rafa is the best manager we've had since the turn of the millennium and he did plenty of things that left me scratching my head but I never questioned whether or not the man knew what he was doing and I won't with Klopp.  When you lose away at Hull in the manner we did yesterday then people are going to be angry and want to point the finger at whatever they think is going wrong but, for the most part, I think the majority of us are able to retain perspective and understand the scale of the job Klopp has on his hands at Liverpool and how he wants go about achieving what he wants to get done.

[Saul Goodman]

I think at the moment we're going through such a frustrating period that any criticism seems magnified.  I've no doubt there are idiots out there on Twitter who are moronic enough to be calling for a change but they should be ignored.

Questioning tactics and selection choices is fine but I can't give an opinion that asserts Klopp isn't a good coach any credence.  Rafa is the best manager we've had since the turn of the millennium and he did plenty of things that left me scratching my head but I never questioned whether or not the man knew what he was doing and I won't with Klopp.  When you lose away at Hull in the manner we did yesterday then people are going to be angry and want to point the finger at whatever they think is going wrong but, for the most part, I think the majority of us are able to retain perspective and understand the scale of the job Klopp has on his hands at Liverpool and how he wants go about achieving what he wants to get done.

It isn't enough for me to want to blindly rage and point the finger. On the other side it isn't enough for me to blindly stick my head in the stand and spout the virtues of the manager that any fan with a modicum of sense already knows. I want to understand, often than involves hearing opposing views. In that way I feel you end up forming your own opinion which isn't blindly led by some bandwagon on one side or the other. People get washed away in echo chambers than reinforce what they already belief to the point that their beliefs are no longer their own.

[ToneLa]

It isn't enough for me to want to blindly rage and point the finger. On the other side it isn't enough for me to blindly stick my head in the stand and spout the virtues of the manager that any fan with a modicum of sense already knows. I want to understand, often than involves hearing opposing views. In that way I feel you end up forming your own opinion which isn't blindly led by some bandwagon on one side or the other. People get washed away in echo chambers than reinforce what they already belief to the point that their beliefs are no longer their own.

Your first line in this thread didn't give that impression, mate.

'Have you all just glossed over the posts in that thread that project a more worrying story. '

You come right out the gate with that...  whatever, we are all entitled to our own ways.

The answer is no, I for one read that entire Reddit and simply reposted what I thought was most on the money. I absorbed it all. There's only about two negative Dortmund opinions. It's a great link, and lots to chew on! The one you posted, I have thought myself... A plan B that perhaps led teams vulnerable to counterattack would sort. It didn't strike me as that insightful to be honest.

It is possible to remain positive without getting lost in the echo chamber, just like it is possible to be negative without just towing the bandwagon that rolls out after a loss.

You have made your point about echo chambers and how people should form useful views that aren't simply repeats of others.

 What do you think about those Dortmund views as a whole? Useful, relevant, are words I would choose. Different views are welcome, but I don't actually know your views yet 

[EUROKINGS]

Not the link, the fact that so many fans are already questioning him.

Honestly, if he's hounded out like they hounded out Rafa then I'm absolutely done with football.

Agreed, although I think the notion that people want him out is overstated. People are asking questions, I haven't seen anyone noteworthy or with their head screwed on wanting him out. It's twitter idiots and 5 live morons.

[Saul Goodman]

What do you think about those Dortmund views as a whole? Useful, relevant, are words I would choose. Different views are welcome, but I don't actually know your views yet 

It is an interesting thread with some good points on both sides. I guess parts of the post I quoted resonated with me slightly. I thought it might create a bit of discussion rather than the focus being on the idiotic point of him not being a good coach.

I think the pressing against weaker opposition is an interesting point. Under Rafa we pressed more than any team in the premiership against weaker opposition. We smothered teams so hard and controlled teams to such a degree that teams used to basically line up against us in hugely defensive formations looking for a draw. That is hard for any team to counter. Even Barcelona when faced with good teams who are well drilled with such a game plan find it incredibly difficult. It often took the sheer genius of Messi to breach such a defense. You need exceptional attacking quality. I think we had that exceptional quality in some areas like Gerrard/Torres. If we had kept Torres and Gerrard fit and playing together for more than 20 games that 08/09 season we would have pissed the league but we didn't and often we lacked as Rafa would say the quality to break teams down due to lack of investment or squad depth.

Fast forward to present day, teams do seem to have come to the same realization they faced against Rafa. That if you set up in a certain way with a game plan you have a shot. A major difference is that Rafa had a much more balanced midfield, with the ability to control games more from the middle and defend better but I think overall Klopp has better attacking options if maybe not the same top quality in single player. We have more chance of breaking teams down but more chance of getting hit on the counter and as already said even the very best attacking quality often isn't enough when faced with team with this game plan. The full backs are currently our most important players as they see loads of the ball in good areas. Currently Clyne/Milner are not giving the output on the ball required but that is a completely other topic.

From the outside looking in though it does look like some of the players are wrecked. You don't make good decision on the ball when mentally fatigued and it is that sharpness in attack play that seems to have been lost. I posted about this in another thread. Early in the season while I did raise some eyebrows towards what was going on, I just presumed that this level of intensity was sustainable given these guys know far more about what footballers are capable of than me. I very much got a Benitez schooling around these subjects so my education had every bone in my body feeling this was all counter-intuitive to my beliefs. I feel this drop off was inevitable.

Some of the comments in the thread posted are interesting in that perspective. Playing, players when it make no sense from the outside, Can? Continually pushing the limits of the players to see who he can really trust going forward? Maybe some of them need a season of extremity like Firmino who has played more minutes already this season than he did in the whole of the last one to get his body adjust to the rigors of the coming seasons. To have that context though you need to believe that this is all part of a much larger plan. I guess a good case can be made that maybe the fall off could never have been imagined so steep especially with the lack of experience in the league.

On the manager himself. I love him. I love the way he plays the game. I have huge confidence him. There isn't another manager in the world I would want at Liverpool. He is dream fit for this club who I still pinch myself to think is currently managing us. All that shouldn't though need pointing out. It certainly shouldn't be some prelude to whether I am a fan or not which is how some of the people in this thread have made it feel.

[jamieredders]

On the manager himself. I love him. I love the way he plays the game. I have huge confidence him. There isn't another manager in the world I would want at Liverpool. He is dream fit for this club who I still pinch myself to think is currently managing us. All that shouldn't though need pointing out.

Pretty sure 90% of LFC fans have the same view.  The other 10% can fuck right off now.  As for Dortmund fans opinion, I don't give a fuck what they think.  One guy reckoning he wouldn't want any LFC players at Dortmund.     The same LFC players who exited them from Europe last season.

The reason Klopp is here, is because he thinks himself this is the perfect club for him.  If enough supposed LFC fans give him enough grief he may well think, it isn't what he thought and walk.  Then we are well fucked.

[kingz]

Different clubs. Dortmund have a brilliant scouting department who can help he manager and we have frauds .. Fallows, Hunter and Edwards need to be fired their CVs and the transfers we made before Klopp is just laughable .. It is clear Klopp doesn't trust them and will wait for players he knows very well like he did in January..

[d.arn]

Not the link, the fact that so many fans are already questioning him.

Honestly, if he's hounded out like they hounded out Rafa then I'm absolutely done with football.

No one can seriously want him gone, surely?

He's by far the best manager we could have got at the time, and there are clearly no better managers available to us now if he leaves. We've been shit for a month, yes, but we were the best team in the league for the best part of the autumn. If we can now see that some of these players aren't great, our form earlier in the season is even more impressive. Dominating the league with mediocre players is a testament to how fucking good Klopp is at what he does.

[ToneLa]

It is an interesting thread with some good points on both sides. I guess parts of the post I quoted resonated with me slightly. I thought it might create a bit of discussion rather than the focus being on the idiotic point of him not being a good coach.

Cheers for the reply

That post you highlighted, like I said, did make me think it (constant pressing) is something worth addressing. I have seen it covered in the tactics thread.

Sorry if I'm one of the people who you feel is questioning your support - I find it hard to get proper discussions going after a loss! I apologise for singling you out. The negative train rolls on; the positive echo chamber rightly isn't better, and there is a difference between naivety and informed optimism. I think a forum is best when it's shared views, exchanged on an equal footing.

Top post Saul, I agree with it. We share some aspects like not ...getting...Can playing so much. Rafa did have an organisational aspect to his tactics that bullied teams, and we had the ability to finish teams off - not always, but one criticism I have right now is our strikers. Firminho isn't doing it, Studge is (as in that Dortmund reddit) "Injured or hot and cold", and Origi is young and seems - excitingly - a project for Klopp.

Continually pushing the limits of the players to see who he can really trust going forward? Maybe some of them need a season of extremity like Firmino who has played more minutes already this season than he did in the whole of the last one to get his body adjust to the rigors of the coming seasons. To have that context though you need to believe that this is all part of a much larger plan. I guess a good case can be made that maybe the fall off could never have been imagined so steep especially with the lack of experience in the league.

I think also, Klopp's style is absolutely rugged and demanding - it's why I want to see a bit more rotation, or a different approach if we can't dominate every game with pressing. There are a few solutions and a few posts in that Reddit highlighted he prefers to "Tinker" with his first 11, one I liked said "but he is ruthless" - good, he needs to be sometimes.

I do think there is a larger plan, but if even there is a time to show it, it's now

I overall fully back our manager. It's a nice feeling.

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There are tabloids today running headlines like KLOPP OUT, SAY KOP, and Hamann is saying it was ridiculous giving Jurgen a longer contract. I ignore those - it's just clickbait in my eyes. There is money to be made from inflaming opinions.

I'm only mentioning it so you all see it's slightly larger than this forum - but I think our support has a bit of a problem with patience, which I totally understand.

I haven't, to be fair, seen much AT ALL from real people not backing Klopp. I think that stance at this point would be ludicrous.

I like that Dortmund thread as it very much gives an outsider opinion - but very much knows our manager and his methods. I am still as excited he's here after reading it.

I am excited to see what Jurgen does next, now I think the losses have gone a wee bit too far 

[kevlumley]

Well done for doing this and posting it. Its a fantastic read, when a lot of us aren't able to contain the emotion inside watching the second of our season spiral downwards.

There are some great insights into the man and his tactics and what he is good and not so good at. I particularly liked the comment about people wanting Klopp just for his success. We had that overnight and the two finals showed that.

For me, one of the best posts from that forum was this one:-

In my humble opinion and it makes me sad to say this out loud, Klopp had a great idea how to play football. But he is not a good coach. He is probably the most charismatic person in the soccer business, but he is not a good coach. The idea and his charisma were very good for a couple of seasons, but people found a remedy against it. They just defend very, very deep. Think of it like this: Have you played soccer yourself? The more legs in a confined space, the harder it becomes to get past them. Most soccer players need space to use their qualities. But Klopp presses the opposite team into their defense and it becomes harder and harder to defend. To achieve this goal, Klopps defense is standing very, very high and there is a looooot of space for the attackers to work with.

It works amazingly well against good teams, because they refuse to be pressed into their own half, but at the end of his BVB career, even the good teams chose a deep defense, making it harder against the good teams. Klopps style is physically very exhausting, so it becomes worse and worse season for season, because players start to burn out.

What I never understood was that Klopp could not see past his initial idea, change the style against weaker teams. It was basically the opposite, he pressed more and more, because pressing in his opinion is the best playmaker.

You need a second coach, one with an idea against weaker compositions and Klopp for games against the strong teams.


A very good read.

[El Lobo]

No one can seriously want him gone, surely?

He's by far the best manager we could have got at the time, and there are clearly no better managers available to us now if he leaves. We've been shit for a month, yes, but we were the best team in the league for the best part of the autumn. If we can now see that some of these players aren't great, our form earlier in the season is even more impressive. Dominating the league with mediocre players is a testament to how fucking good Klopp is at what he does.

I don't think anyone does no

But I do remember pretty vividly how quickly it went downhill under Rafa for a lot of fans, I'm just very keen to avoid anything even remotely resembling that.

[Eeyore]

No one can seriously want him gone, surely?

He's by far the best manager we could have got at the time, and there are clearly no better managers available to us now if he leaves. We've been shit for a month, yes, but we were the best team in the league for the best part of the autumn. If we can now see that some of these players aren't great, our form earlier in the season is even more impressive. Dominating the league with mediocre players is a testament to how fucking good Klopp is at what he does.

Does Klopp fit with the Clubs structure and recruitment policy though. I love Klopp and think he is great but is he the best Coach for our setup. Reading the Reddit thread the constant theme is that Klopp needs players with very specific qualities and for that to happen there is going to have to be a very targeted recruitment policy.

As a Club are we capable of pulling that off. If not do we need a more pragmatic Coach with the ability to get the best out of a squad built based on a stats and value basis. For me it is a no-brainer Klopp is a top drawer Coach who gives us our best chance of getting back to the top but he needs to be backed to the hilt like he was at Dortmund.