Topic: Liverpool's defence - Giraffes, Walls and Automobiles

[jillcwhomever]

I don't think we can obtain the ideal squad in just this one window. I wouldn't be too unhappy if we only brought in defensive players. None of Mignolet, Lovren, Moreno, Klavan and Lucas are consistently good enough and Milner isn't even a defender. Until this is fixed, we will flatter to deceive.

Whilst its true we need to sort out our defensive inadequacies we also need one winger at least. At the moment our lack of pace when we're attacking, is making it a lot more difficult to get the penetration we need. We cannot go into the new season without solving that problem as well. We are too one paced at the moment which is also making the problems at the back more acute.

[killer-heels]

A Mané type player is needed indeed. A proper striker too, no question. Add a CM who can cover the CB's when the fullbacks are pushed up, or use Henderson/Can here and add a midfielder with a good passing range who can set the tempo for us, an Alonso type. Add also a CB and a left back. That's quite a shopping list.

All the more reason why not doing enough business last year was an odd decision. All we have done is pushed the need to this summer. We literally went into the season short in every position bar up front and in goal.

Only Klopp and those around him will know why they made such a decision. Certain rumours have indicated that we were saving the money so we could attract a higher quality of player if we got CL (where have we heard that before?).

[Frizzo]

Found this and it seems interesting but also confusing.. According to this numbers our defense is great yet somehow 14 teams conceded less big chances than us ..



Chances conceded ( Center ) : only Man Utd , Arsenal , Spurs, City conceded less  ..

Chances conceded ( left ) : only City conceded less ..

Chances conceded ( Right ) : no team conceded less chances thru the right zone than us ..


Only Chelsea and Man Utd conceded less goals attempts ..

Big Chances conceded ( A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score usually in a one-on-one scenario or from very close range )  :  14 teams conceded less big chances ....

This completely fits my view of the team for a while.

We concede very few chances but when we do concede they always seem to be unmissable chances.

Look no further back than two shots from 6 yards out against crystal palace.

Even the previous couple of games mignolet has to make multiple point blank saves to win those games.

Its a truly bizarre issue.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

All the more reason why not doing enough business last year was an odd decision. All we have done is pushed the need to this summer. We literally went into the season short in every position bar up front and in goal.

Only Klopp and those around him will know why they made such a decision. Certain rumours have indicated that we were saving the money so we could attract a higher quality of player if we got CL (where have we heard that before?).

I hope, and think we'll spend a shed load of cash in the summer regardless. Granted, if we don't get CL, more will be asked of those in charge to find the right level of player who's attainable without CL. But I'm convinced that there are loads of players out there who'll improve the team and squad. The reason for that is Mané. I was sceptical about that deal when rumours surfaced about our interest and the price quoted. But it proved to be a very astute signing. Wijnaldum was also very shrewd. I know he polarizes opinions quite a bit, but I think he's been very valuable to the team throughout the season.

So I'm looking forward to a good transfer summer.

[killer-heels]

I hope, and think we'll spend a shed load of cash in the summer regardless. Granted, if we don't get CL, more will be asked of those in charge to find the right level of player who's attainable without CL. But I'm convinced that there are loads of players out there who'll improve the team and squad. The reason for that is Mané. I was sceptical about that deal when rumours surfaced about our interest and the price quoted. But it proved to be a very astute signing. Wijnaldum was also very shrewd. I know he polarizes opinions quite a bit, but I think he's been very valuable to the team throughout the season.

So I'm looking forward to a good transfer summer.

There are loads of good players out there and we have been good at our transfers in the last two summers. Missing out on CL means you can kiss players like Van Djik and Brandt goodbye but there are others we can sign instead.

We just cannot afford to take anymore gambles though on fitness and numbers and we need to lose this ideological belief that unless you can get a certain player, you will wait a whole year to sign him the following summer, especially in the case of someone like Brandt who will probably just say no anyway.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

We just cannot afford to take anymore gambles though on fitness and numbers and we need to lose this ideological belief that unless you can get a certain player, you will wait a whole year to sign him the following summer, especially in the case of someone like Brandt who will probably just say no anyway.

Hear, hear.

[Funky_Gibbons]

I think it is a failure of the players and not the system that not one of three CMs was dropping deep to give the safe option. Once they have got caught upfield like that Lovren should be more than experienced enough to see that there is nothing on and go long to Origi. The ball he tries to play is utterly brainless. Then just as he used to do at the beginning of his LFC career he then made a bad mistake even worse by panicking and launching himself at a ball he was never going to win.

It doesn't matter what system you play, if players make poor decisions like that you're going to concede goals.

It's both. Our system and style of play mean we push everyone forward and leave our centre backs exposed, you only have to listen to what a fuckwit like Allardyce said after the match to realise you don't need to be a tactical genius to play against us. How many times do you see Spurs or Chelsea's centre-backs under that pressure?

But players are constantly making poor or wrong decisions when put under pressure, Lovren's pass and attempt to win the ball back, no midfielders showing for the ball, full backs pushed too high not showing and eventually Lucas leaving his zone from the resultant corner giving Benteke space to attack.

[Giono]

Found this and it seems interesting but also confusing.. According to this numbers our defense is great yet somehow 14 teams conceded less big chances than us ..



Chances conceded ( Center ) : only Man Utd , Arsenal , Spurs, City conceded less  ..

Chances conceded ( left ) : only City conceded less ..

Chances conceded ( Right ) : no team conceded less chances thru the right zone than us ..


Only Chelsea and Man Utd conceded less goals attempts ..

Big Chances conceded ( A situation where a player should reasonably be expected to score usually in a one-on-one scenario or from very close range )  :  14 teams conceded less big chances ....

Interesting stats. I guess it just confirms that our high pressing reduces the number of chances, but our high line makes them dangerous chances. 

When you indicate 'right zone' is that ours or their right side? If it is theirs, then it would confirm that Milner and Lovren have been poor. If it is our right side then it would surprisingly indicate that Clyne and Matip are not as good defensively as we assume they are.

[cdav]

Interesting stats. I guess it just confirms that our high pressing reduces the number of chances, but our high line makes them dangerous chances. 

When you indicate 'right zone' is that ours or their right side? If it is theirs, then it would confirm that Milner and Lovren have been poor. If it is our right side then it would surprisingly indicate that Clyne and Matip are not as good defensively as we assume they are.

I think you may be reading it wrong- its no team concede less goal attempts through the right side- i.e. its the best in the league (for this stat, we still concede far too many goals).

I guess the issue from Kingz stats is how do we go about improving this. We don't concede many goal attempts but when we do we concede big chances that are likely to be scored. Is this errors, poor positioning, luck, a result of being poor at set pieces (likely to result in a chance close to the goal/ in the 6 yard box)- a combination of all of the above?

Is the answer to sign better players, modify the system (we don't seem to press anywhere near as well as we did earlier this season for example) or something else? We are on course to concede 46 goals this year- it must be the target to get this below 30 next season to make it easier for us to win the number of games to challenge for the league.

[Samie]

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/liverpool-van-dijk-arsenal-chelsea-12942746

Liverpool are prepared to shatter their transfer record to buy Southampton’s Virgil van Dijk this summer as competition for his signature hots up.

The Reds face a battle to secure the services of the Dutch centre-back but they haven’t been put off by the £50million price tag.

The previous biggest fee Liverpool have ever spent on a player was the £35million they paid Newcastle United for Andy Carroll in January 2011.

Arsenal have become the latest Premier League club to register their interest in Van Dijk. As well as Liverpool, Chelsea, Manchester City and Everton are also in the hunt.

Liverpool are prepared to shatter their transfer record to buy Southampton’s Virgil van Dijk this summer as competition for his signature hots up.

The Reds face a battle to secure the services of the Dutch centre-back but they haven’t been put off by the £50million price tag.

The previous biggest fee Liverpool have ever spent on a player was the £35million they paid Newcastle United for Andy Carroll in January 2011.Van Dijk is Jurgen Klopp’s top defensive target but the Reds boss knows the club must achieve Champions League qualification in order to have any hope of signing him.

Liverpool insist it won’t come down to money and they are prepared to make the 25-year-old defender one of the club’s highest wage earners. Saints, who bought Van Dijk from Celtic for £13million two years, are increasingly resigned to losing the Holland international.

Van Dijk, who has been sidelined since January with a foot injury, wants to play Champions League football and intends to weigh up his options in the summer.

[MPowerYNWA]

We could have the worlds biggest transfer budget but we won't get the 'A' list of players such as Van Dijk - as clubs such as Man City, Chelsea etc. would currently represent more attractive choices to such players - more quality players to play with, greater chance to win trophies, bigger salaries etc. etc.

Champions league or not, I think we'll do business but on th 'B' list of players where we will be relying on Klopp to unearth some hidden treasures - these won't typically be household names and may not hit the ground running.

For LFC to break out this cycle of not being able to bring in th one or two world class players who can then inspire others to join which we have to pay a stupidly high salary so that it impacts the top end player choices.

Look forward to the summer transfer window, just keep your expectations in check.

[Samie]

Van Dijk isn't even "A list". 

[Caligula?]

When has the defense ever been rejuvenated?

[rawcusk8]

Im not a Fsg basher by any stretch of the imagination but fucking hell I hate reading stuff like that now. He was available for peanuts but we doubted he would fit in at a top team and now he's brilliant we want to shatter our transfer record to get him. It just seems like shitty leaked stories to show the fans we are going for the big time players but will ultimately lose out to the big dogs because we cant offer the big wages.

[Carlito Roberto]

Van Dijk isn't even "A list". 

Difficult to categorise him as world class, but given the lack of top quality centre backs these days he'll certainly be one of the best on the market this summer.

[Durlmints]

If Liverpool pay 50m quid for Van Dijk then I'm giving PL football a rest indefinitely.

Honestly amazed people would be happy about it.

[KiNki]

When has the defense ever been rejuvenated?

[JackWard33]

If Liverpool pay 50m quid for Van Dijk then I'm giving PL football a rest indefinitely.

Honestly amazed people would be happy about it.

Don't get this post - you think he's not good or what?

[Samie]

Don't get this post - you think he's not good or what?

Not 50 mill good.

[didi shamone]

When has the defense ever been rejuvenated?

They drank lucozade sport after the Palace game I believe

[JackWard33]

Not 50 mill good.

I don't know what this means. You have some metric for judging the correct fee for centre backs? Can you quantify the difference between a 35 million and 50 million centre back in summer 2017? 
Can you name better centre backs for us to sign?

[Samie]

I don't know what this means. You have some metric for judging the correct fee for centre backs? Can you quantify the difference between a 35 million and 50 million centre back in summer 2017? 
Can you name better centre backs for us to sign?

For a 50 million centre back I'm wanting a ready made WORLD CLASS defender and Van Dijk is good maybe very good but he's not in that elite category. 

[Greatness]

If John Stones went for £50 million, then Van Dijk is easily worth that as he's 10x the player Stones is.

[Durlmints]

I don't know what this means. You have some metric for judging the correct fee for centre backs? Can you quantify the difference between a 35 million and 50 million centre back in summer 2017? 
Can you name better centre backs for us to sign?

PSG and Man City are the only two clubs in history so far to spend £50m on a CB. Literally only two clubs (with massive wealth) are the only ones who have done it, and you're acting like it's the norm.

If John Stones went for £50 million, then Van Dijk is easily worth that as he's 10x the player Stones is.

We should pay £500m for him then.

[didi shamone]

I don't know what this means. You have some metric for judging the correct fee for centre backs? Can you quantify the difference between a 35 million and 50 million centre back in summer 2017? 
Can you name better centre backs for us to sign?

Difficult to quantify really but if we got 30 million for Sakho I wont lie awake at night worrying about how much we spent on VVD.   Personally I think he's the best in the league. That said ld be amazed if we got him. Other clubs will easily out wage us so it's probably pie in the sky.

[JackWard33]

PSG and Man City are the only two clubs in history so far to spend £50m on a CB. Literally only two clubs (with massive wealth) are the only ones who have done it, and you're acting like it's the norm.

We should pay £500m for him then.

I'm not acting like anything is the norm
Honestly right now - as champions league football threatens to be something other clubs do again- I don't give a fuck about money
I just want Van Dijk to play football for us. He's sensational and a clear upgrade on our current cbs. Beyond that I don't give a monkeys fuck wether we pay 25, 50 or 70 million for him. Just go get a quality player and our first choice for once

[Caligula?]

 

Hyypia, Henchoz, Carragher in his prime in those early to mid 2000's. Not to mention full backs like Finnan and Aurelio a bit later on. We haven't had anything better since then. Fucking hell, give Klopp that and he'd walk the league.

[Sheer Magnetism]

Im not a Fsg basher by any stretch of the imagination but fucking hell I hate reading stuff like that now. He was available for peanuts but we doubted he would fit in at a top team and now he's brilliant we want to shatter our transfer record to get him.

Were we ever in for him? I don't remember us being linked. I think in general there's a stigma against signing SPL players because it's such a shit league. If the club did sign someone from there who didn't perform we'd never hear the end of it from fans moaning about a lack of ambition.

[King_Kenny_Legend]

Does someone have any stats of how many games has Lovren missed on an average since he joined us. Do we need 5 defenders (1 new CB, matip, lovren, klavan and Gomez) going for new season. Let's assume we sign Van Dijk (or some other good defender), we would be going with New CB - Matip partnership as first choice and Lovren, Klavan and Gomez being backups. I trust Klopp's decision to limit playing time of Gomez this season because of him coming back from a major injury. But what are his Klopp's plans for Gomez for next season. Are we planning to send him out on loan or use him as a backup in Cup competitions for CB and full back positions.

[mrantarctica]

Does someone have any stats of how many games has Lovren missed on an average since he joined us. Do we need 5 defenders (1 new CB, matip, lovren, klavan and Gomez) going for new season. Let's assume we sign Van Dijk (or some other good defender), we would be going with New CB - Matip partnership as first choice and Lovren, Klavan and Gomez being backups. I trust Klopp's decision to limit playing time of Gomez this season because of him coming back from a major injury. But what are his Klopp's plans for Gomez for next season. Are we planning to send him out on loan or use him as a backup in Cup competitions for CB and full back positions.

I'd have thought we'd get in a top CB (maybe VVD?) and pair him with Matip. Lovren and Gomez competing to get that bench spot or in case of injuries. I suspect either Lloyd Jones or Conor Masterson would be the young player that'll be on the periphery for the odd minutes here and there. I think we'll sell Sakho, Klavan, Wisdom and Lucas will move on too so that might free up some funds/wages to bring in someone really good.

The ideal would be if we could mend the relationship with Sakho, sell Lovren and then bring in a top defender like VVD and have Matip, Sakho and VVD compete for 2 spots with Gomez and another youngster trying to get a look in. I think Sakho is a better player than either Lovren or Klavan. Of course, that'll never happen. I think Sakho is done at LFC - hopefully we will command a good fee for him due to his form.

[Zlen]

I would look to upgrade every single player in that defence (yes, Matip as well). That's how flaky and/or unproductive I think it is.

We'll hardly do that, but at least two quality players are not beyond our means. Also if possible, buy players who seldom get injured. Aurelio was the best fullback ever - not many people know that because he played around twelve games in his career.

[Caston]

Wish our first choice left back target wasn't a 16 year old. He's probably going to be very good but I think we'll be making a mistake going into next season with Milner still first choice left back and a teenager challenging him.

[King_Kenny_Legend]

You expect us to sign 4 new defenders and forge a strong partnership before start of next season. I don't think we will sign more than 1 CB and 1 LB in defense (maybe a backup too). Matip is good CB and i expect him to improve on this season's performance after settling in and hopefully not getting injured as much as he has been this season.
 

I would look to upgrade every single player in that defence (yes, Matip as well). That's how flaky and/or unproductive I think it is.

We'll hardly do that, but at least two quality players are not beyond our means. Also if possible, buy players who seldom get injured. Aurelio was the best fullback ever - not many people know that because he played around twelve games in his career.

[macmanamanaman]

I think this should be called
"The defence (sort of) thread"

[kasperoff]

Whilst its true we need to sort out our defensive inadequacies we also need one winger at least. At the moment our lack of pace when we're attacking, is making it a lot more difficult to get the penetration we need. We cannot go into the new season without solving that problem as well. We are too one paced at the moment which is also making the problems at the back more acute.

Whist I accept we could use another winger, we should be addressing our soft under-belly first. We're crashing this season because we can't keep the lower league teams out. We fix that and we are about 10 points better off next season.

Success comes from balance. We all know how exciting it is to try outscore everyone, but teams who win things usually have solid defences (Barca being the freak team here).

[kasperoff]

Ask yourself, how many of our defenders would get in other teams in the top 6? Is the answer zero? The transfer strategy for the summer should be centred around buying quality at the back.

[kasperoff]

PSG and Man City are the only two clubs in history so far to spend £50m on a CB. Literally only two clubs (with massive wealth) are the only ones who have done it, and you're acting like it's the norm.

We should pay £500m for him then.

We've put ourselves in this position by being mingebags and trying to do it on the cheap with Matip and Klavan. It's the position we need to strengthen the most. The fact that spending that much on a CB is rare doesn't matter. All that matters is that we get better at defending against direct teams, and we finish higher up the table next season.

We've done well with the likes of Coutinho, Can, Hendo, Lallana and Mane. We can't aways expect to get the best value.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Ask yourself, how many of our defenders would get in other teams in the top 6? Is the answer zero? The transfer strategy for the summer should be centred around buying quality at the back.

You stick a majority of our competitors central defenders in our defence and there wouldn’t be any significant improvement. You think Cahill would have the pace or Luiz the composure to play in a team who commits too many players to attack and gets caught out too often?

We basically have two defenders in the team, both the full-backs are pushed high up the pitch and so are the midfield. Spurs and Chelsea are the most balanced teams in the league, one of them plays with an additional defender and both play with two sitting midfielders.

[ApfelStudel]

I think it is important to get in a LB and have Milner as backup for the LB/RB. When was the last time we bought a good lb? I really cannot remember.

[Coolie High]

50 for Van Djik  is ridiculous don't care how much Stones or Mangala went for.