Topic: 21/22 Goals and assists

[Xabi Gerrard]

Chelsea had Lampard on 16-goals one season and Drogba on 20-goals the next so a bit of a stretch to say they has no-one close to 20-goals a season.

In their league winning campaigns of the mid-00s, which we were talking about, Lampard got 13 & 16 league goals, Drogba got 10 & 12. At a massive massive massive stretch I guess you could say 16 goals is close to being a 20 goal a season player.

Not sure where you got Drogba's 20 goals from in the mid-00s Chelsea title winning team though.

[redk84]

Does their form all rely on each other? Or was Jan just a perfect storm of shit for each of them?

- Mane away
- Firmino drunk driving & burglary
- Coutinho returning from injury (which seems to be taking forever to return to form tbf)
- Lallana being shifted away from a position where he's prolific to a position where he's ineffective.

Maybe if only one of those things had happened, the others could have carried the effected player for a bit and help ease them back into form over a couple of games, but when it's all going on at once it just becomes a mess.

Maybe

I've seen this perfect storm reasoning come up a few times now when we hit a bad patch in seasons gone by....strength of character has to come into it. Maybe the type of player technically is not so much the wider issue

[Funky_Gibbons]

In their league winning campaigns of the mid-00s, which we were talking about, Lampard got 13 & 16 league goals, Drogba got 10 & 12. At a massive massive massive stretch I guess you could say 16 goals is close to being a 20 goal a season player.

Not sure where you got Drogba's 20 goals from in the mid-00s Chelsea title winning team though.

Sorry, I was looking at the following year when they finished second.

[Cpt_Reina]

There's nothing more PL era Liverpool than looking at a good player and thinking we dont need to upgrade to a great player.

We dont need to improve on Kuyt and his workmanlike, solid but unspectacular performances on the wing. He's far too important to replace despite not being all that good.

Same with Lucas who was alright, for a bit, never got a true upgrade because he was alright. Mignolet too is just about serviceable and so he doesnt get a proper replacement for far too long.

Lovren looks like he might fall in to this bracket too, not terrible, not great, will end up sticking around longer than he should.

And its exactly the case with Firmino now. He's alright, we'll kid ourselves that we dont need better and that hes too important to the system to replace for another year, possibly two, until we finally admit we should have got someone in with more of an eye for goal.

[Bergersrightwingviews]

There's nothing more PL era Liverpool than looking at a good player and thinking we dont need to upgrade to a great player.

Hear bloody hear.

I think we also have a nasty habit of holding onto players for too long as well. Agger, Skrtel, Reina, Johnson et al should have been moved on at least a couple of years before they eventually were.

Of the current crop I think it is time for Lucas, Moreno, Sakho, Mignolet at the very least to go. I can see an argument to get Sturridge of the books as well.

[Xabi Gerrard]

And its exactly the case with Firmino now. He's alright, we'll kid ourselves that we dont need better and that hes too important to the system to replace for another year, possibly two, until we finally admit we should have got someone in with more of an eye for goal.

How long have you felt Firmino isn't good enough? Up to 6 weeks ago the whole league was raving about him, Liverpool and non-Liverpool fans alike were singing his praises, he was a key part of the best attack around, his name kept popping up in the 'Current Best Player in the Premier League' thread, everything was rosy.

Did you know back then he wasnt good enough?

Because maybe that's his level and this is a rut. Like the one Ibrahimovic went through in Autumn. Or Costa went through last season. Maybe.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

There's nothing more PL era Liverpool than looking at a good player and thinking we dont need to upgrade to a great player.

We dont need to improve on Kuyt and his workmanlike, solid but unspectacular performances on the wing. He's far too important to replace despite not being all that good.

Same with Lucas who was alright, for a bit, never got a true upgrade because he was alright. Mignolet too is just about serviceable and so he doesnt get a proper replacement for far too long.

Lovren looks like he might fall in to this bracket too, not terrible, not great, will end up sticking around longer than he should.

And its exactly the case with Firmino now. He's alright, we'll kid ourselves that we dont need better and that hes too important to the system to replace for another year, possibly two, until we finally admit we should have got someone in with more of an eye for goal.

True, but this seems more of an issue of managers having their favourites to me, due to overestimating certain attributes (hard work) and underestimating others (pace), and I'm not sure there's an awful lot we can do about that.

While I think the 4-3-3 was largely to utilise Firmino as our main striker, I do think Klopp must still be hugely underwhelmed by Sturridge and Origi's contributions this season. As I've been saying for months I'll be incredulous if they haven't at least got an eye on a striker they want this summer.

In their league winning campaigns of the mid-00s, which we were talking about, Lampard got 13 & 16 league goals, Drogba got 10 & 12. At a massive massive massive stretch I guess you could say 16 goals is close to being a 20 goal a season player.

Not sure where you got Drogba's 20 goals from in the mid-00s Chelsea title winning team though.

Do you not just think it's a different era and very difficult to compare to? As I said the last time a title winning side didn't contain a 20 league goals contribution was United in 08-09, which kinda feels like the end of that cagier era.

Bottom line is I think we need a player capable of scoring 20+ league goals even if they don't actually end up doing so. It takes pressure off the supporting cast and can in turn increase their tally too.

[Cpt_Reina]

How long have you felt Firmino isn't good enough? Up to 6 weeks ago the whole league was raving about him, Liverpool and non-Liverpool fans alike were singing his praises, he was a key part of the best attack around, his name kept popping up in the 'Current Best Player in the Premier League' thread, everything was rosy.

Did you know back then he wasnt good enough?

Because maybe that's his level and this is a rut. Like the one Ibrahimovic went through in Autumn. Or Costa went through last season. Maybe.

Since it became obvious last summer that we weren't going to be signing anyone.

Although I did hope that Sturridge wasnt up on blocks in the way he quite clearly is so hoped it wouldnt be too much of an issue. But it is.

Firmino isnt a striker, he's never been a striker, he didnt arrive as a striker I didnt believe he suddenly had it in him to become one. Still dont.

[Lynndenberries]

Since it became obvious last summer that we weren't going to be signing anyone.

Although I did hope that Sturridge wasnt up on blocks in the way he quite clearly is so hoped it wouldnt be too much of an issue. But it is.

Firmino isnt a striker, he's never been a striker, he didnt arrive as a striker I didnt believe he suddenly had it in him to become one. Still dont.

Out of curiosity, where do you see him fitting in the team then?

[LallanaInPyjamas]

How long have you felt Firmino isn't good enough? Up to 6 weeks ago the whole league was raving about him, Liverpool and non-Liverpool fans alike were singing his praises, he was a key part of the best attack around, his name kept popping up in the 'Current Best Player in the Premier League' thread, everything was rosy.

Did you know back then he wasnt good enough?

Because maybe that's his level and this is a rut. Like the one Ibrahimovic went through in Autumn. Or Costa went through last season. Maybe.

It's not a rut. He's been scoring goals a rate of every 250-300 minutes all season.

Can't speak for Cpt Reina, but personally I posted this on here after the Southampton 0-0 game in November, at a time when we were doing well and it's incredibly difficult to criticise anything from the tea lady to Jurgen Klopp on here (as I found out):

Excellent player but if he wants to be Liverpool's number nine long-term then he needs to improve at one on one's. Too many have been missed by him already this season that Aguero or Costa simply wouldn't.

And I posted this a few weeks later:

But does he score enough goals to be our long-term number nine? Does he have enough pace? Not for me. I think we'd be a much healthier side if he was 4th choice in the front three simply because he's just such a weird, inconsistent player that having to rely on him every week makes it a complete inevitability that points will be dropped IMO.

And I had a run-in with Nessy just three weeks ago regarding this notion that he's clinical in a central position yet can't score from wide despite me pointing out (this was prior to the Swansea game) he had as many goals (three) as through the middle (three).

I stand by that in an ideal world - i.e. by July/August when the sun is shining and we can dream once again - he should be our fourth best player for the front three positions. Think he's a very good player who brings a hell of a lot to the table for us, and has shown a willingness to play in any of the three roles. In no way do I want to see him leave this club. I don't want to see any of the 14 or so players Klopp seems to rate leave any time soon because I want us to build a squad.

I just don't think Firmino should be the best striker within that squad. He's not clinical, he's not quick, and he can be inconsistent. But the lad you bring in when Coutinho's done his hammy, Mane's in Africa, the new striker's struggling with the pressure a bit, or you fancy a bit of two up front? Boss that.

[El Lobo]

Still happier spreading the goals around, we just need better than Firmino in his position.

[Cpt_Reina]

Out of curiosity, where do you see him fitting in the team then?

I'm not terrified of the fact of him being on the bench.

He can start or play as and when we need him to, rather than every single game as is he is currently.

[Chief Brody]

I think Klopps still making do a mends. He's got a history of buying and playing out and out strikers (which tells you what he thinks of Sturridge).

Personally I think we've got too many players that are too similar, at any given time it looks like we've got 5 attacking midfielders on the pitch which would account for the amount of goals we get from midfield but in my view also accounts for what looks like a lack of structure when we don't have the ball.

I'd even class Can, Henderson and Wijnaldum as fundamentally forward thinking midfielders.


A striker and two wingers has to be better than 3 attacking midfielders, it just has to be.

[Coolie High]

In their league winning campaigns of the mid-00s, which we were talking about, Lampard got 13 & 16 league goals, Drogba got 10 & 12. At a massive massive massive stretch I guess you could say 16 goals is close to being a 20 goal a season player.

Not sure where you got Drogba's 20 goals from in the mid-00s Chelsea title winning team though.

Yes and they also had the top 2 best defences in the league, maybe the best. The difference is reliability, we score the most goals, but Firmino in the last few weeks has missed big game chances that a top striker simply doesn't, we can pile pressure on teams and beat them 3-4 goals when on form, but you still need a top striker in those games where we can't blow away teams, Costa isn't missing the simple chances Firmino does, Sturridge wasn't at his best or Suarez Aguero too, you need a 20 goal striker to win the league, or you can do what Chelsea done in the mid 00's and rely on having the best defence, best midfield and a striker capable of outshining all in the bigger games.

[didi shamone]

The "but we're top goalscorers " argument is wearing thin. We certainly dont look like we'll finish top goalscorers at the moment.  We look on course to finish fifth in that table. That's where Spurs are now by five goals. They"ve conceded little over half what we have.
I brought up what I thought was a dilemma between Sturridge and Firmino early in the Season, ie goals v workrate. Now seeing as Sturridge is neither rated or wanted anymore its obvious we need a striker badly. Its great when we're battering teams and everyone scores but in tight games with few chances you need a real striker. Firmino for all his workrate doesn't score nearly enough. He doesn't have pace and doesn't make those clever runs behind that real strikers make which could open up games. Origi currently isn't good enough but obviously he needs time.
Its critical that we get a striker in the summer.

[Lynndenberries]

I'm not terrified of the fact of him being on the bench.

He can start or play as and when we need him to, rather than every single game as is he is currently.

Seems like the ideal situation for me, too. Not quite sure who we will bring in to replace him though. We have not been reliably linked to a striker since Klopp was brought in.

[Xabi Gerrard]

Yes and they also had the top 2 best defences in the league, maybe the best. The difference is reliability, we score the most goals, but Firmino in the last few weeks has missed big game chances that a top striker simply doesn't, we can pile pressure on teams and beat them 3-4 goals when on form, but you still need a top striker in those games where we can't blow away teams, Costa isn't missing the simple chances Firmino does, Sturridge wasn't at his best or Suarez Aguero too, you need a 20 goal striker to win the league, or you can do what Chelsea done in the mid 00's and rely on having the best defence, best midfield and a striker capable of outshining all in the bigger games.

Thing is, how many games have we actually not scored in? Burnley (A), Man Utd (H) and now Hull (A)? I don't think it's been that much of an issue not having striker scoring a goal when we can't blow teams away. We've lost far more points in games when we've scored enough to win, such as Sunderland, Swansea, Bournemouth, West Ham. Which brings me to where I think we should be focussing. I'm sure you agree with all the following points;

-We're not good enough to win the league.
-Statistically we're the best goal scorers in the league.
-Statistically we're the 8th best team at keeping goals out of our own net.
-We have goalkeepers who gift the opposition goals out of nothing far too regularly.

I guess my issue is that I don't know how you can look at those statements and come away thinking the solution is to have our goals concentrated on one prolific striker rather than spread around the team. The spread of goal scorers isn't our problem.

[didi shamone]

Thing is, how many games have we actually not scored in? Burnley (A), Man Utd (H) and now Hull (A)? I don't think it's been that much of an issue not having striker scoring a goal when we can't blow teams away. We've lost far more points in games when we've scored enough to win, such as Sunderland, Swansea, Bournemouth, West Ham. Which brings me to where I think we should be focussing. I'm sure you agree with all the following points;

-We're not good enough to win the league.
-Statistically we're the best goal scorers in the league.
-Statistically we're the 8th best team at keeping goals out of our own net.
-We have goalkeepers who gift the opposition goals out of nothing far too regularly.

I guess my issue is that I don't know how you can look at those statements and come away thinking the solution is to have our goals concentrated on one prolific striker rather than spread around the team. The spread of goal scorers isn't our problem.

 

It's not the issue but it is an issue. It's obvious we need a goalkeeper and defenders and at least one midfielder.  But to think we don't need a striker is wrong in my opinion. We're the most attacking team in the league so we'll score a lot of goals. But I'm willing to bet we won't be top scorers either. We're coming back to the rest on that stat too.

[didi shamone]

There's nothing more PL era Liverpool than looking at a good player and thinking we dont need to upgrade to a great player.

We dont need to improve on Kuyt and his workmanlike, solid but unspectacular performances on the wing. He's far too important to replace despite not being all that good.

Same with Lucas who was alright, for a bit, never got a true upgrade because he was alright. Mignolet too is just about serviceable and so he doesnt get a proper replacement for far too long.

Lovren looks like he might fall in to this bracket too, not terrible, not great, will end up sticking around longer than he should.

And its exactly the case with Firmino now. He's alright, we'll kid ourselves that we dont need better and that hes too important to the system to replace for another year, possibly two, until we finally admit we should have got someone in with more of an eye for goal.

There's also nothing more Liverpool fan than "we need to get rid of" Kuyt, Sturridge, Lucas, Lovren or whoever.  Their wages are too high to have them on the bench the accountants cry. How about finding better players and still having these guys on the bench. You'd at least get one season out of them before they look for an out. We might even find ourselves with a strong bench for once.

[CHOPPER]

In the spirit of not wanting to put too much pressure on our strikers, I belive we should firstly discuss those that can shoot straight and hit the target, before putting any additional pressure on them by implying that they may even be able to get the round thing, in the oblongy thing and make the wobbly wavey white thing, at the back of the oblongy thing, flap. A little.

The greatest march starts with a single step, brothers and sisters.

[Cpt_Reina]

There's also nothing more Liverpool fan than "we need to get rid of" Kuyt, Sturridge, Lucas, Lovren or whoever.  Their wages are too high to have them on the bench the accountants cry. How about finding better players and still having these guys on the bench. You'd at least get one season out of them before they look for an out. We might even find ourselves with a strong bench for once.

Where did I say they should be sold?

I said upgraded.

[CHOPPER]

I said upgraded.

They're on a football field, not a flight to bloody Malaga!

[harryc]

They're on a football field, not a flight to bloody Malaga!

Would you prefer the Algarve?

[CHOPPER]

Would you prefer the Algarve?

Any mediterranean costal area with low urbanisation and poor transport networking, will do.

[didi shamone]

Where did I say they should be sold?

I said upgraded.

Where did I say you said that? ☺

[FernandoTourettes]

But we're the top scorers in the league. Scoring goals isn't our problem. What difference does it make if our 52 goals were scored by 1 player or 10? Are you suggesting that if we had one prolific striker he would have spread his goals out differently to ensure we scored some of them against Hull?

Spreading our goals around isn't the cause of our current malaise.

It's not a case of "If you don't have a top striker at least have the best defence around to supplement for it", it's a case of if the team doesn't score enough goals at least have the best defence around to supplement for it.

Interesting stat off the Anfield wrap today. Coutinho, Lallana, Firminho and Mane have only played together 7 times this whole season in the league. Out of those 7 games, 24 of our 52 goals have been scored.

[jillcwhomever]

Interesting stat off the Anfield wrap today. Coutinho, Lallana, Firminho and Mane have only played together 7 times this whole season in the league. Out of those 7 games, 24 of our 52 goals have been scored.

Wow that's less time than I thought. 

Having said that we need to persevere Coutinho needs to get his sharpness back. Hopefully a week on the training field will help in that respect.

[Wesley Pipes]

If we are not going to give Sturridge the chance to play himself into a bit of form we should definitely be playing Divock Origi every game.

Last season he only really used Firmino upfront Vs. the top teams but now it's every match. Not enough trickery or penetration.

Divock Origi is a great prospect and really started to find his feet at the end of last season before he got injured and you only have to remember back to Rodgers last full season to remember how influential sturridge can be on a game. He didn't play much that season but most of the games he did we won and he scored.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Mane - 11
Firmino - 9
Origi - 7
Lallana - 7
Coutinho - 6
Sturridge - 6
Milner - 6
Gini - 3
Emre - 3
Lovren - 2

[Oddball]

There's nothing more PL era Liverpool than looking at a good player and thinking we dont need to upgrade to a great player.

We dont need to improve on Kuyt and his workmanlike, solid but unspectacular performances on the wing. He's far too important to replace despite not being all that good.

Same with Lucas who was alright, for a bit, never got a true upgrade because he was alright. Mignolet too is just about serviceable and so he doesnt get a proper replacement for far too long.

Lovren looks like he might fall in to this bracket too, not terrible, not great, will end up sticking around longer than he should.

And its exactly the case with Firmino now. He's alright, we'll kid ourselves that we dont need better and that hes too important to the system to replace for another year, possibly two, until we finally admit we should have got someone in with more of an eye for goal.

Absolutely mate. Imagine Aubameyang in this Liverpool side!

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Mane - 12
Firmino - 10
Origi - 7
Lallana - 7
Coutinho - 7
Sturridge - 6
Milner - 6
Gini - 4
Emre - 3
Lovren - 2


Very good return for Mane thus far this year.

[bird_lfc]

Mane - 12
Firmino - 10
Origi - 7
Lallana - 7
Coutinho - 7
Sturridge - 6
Milner - 6
Gini - 4
Emre - 3
Lovren - 2


Very good return for Mane thus far this year.

Thanks for this mate. I do think Mane is capable of finishing on 20 for the season myself.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Thanks for this mate. I do think Mane is capable of finishing on 20 for the season myself.

Which would be incredibly considering his position.

[bird_lfc]

Which would be incredibly considering his position.

Very much so. If you said he'd of scored 15 at the start of the season we would of been delighted

[Chalky Boots]

There's nothing more PL era Liverpool than looking at a good player and thinking we dont need to upgrade to a great player.

We dont need to improve on Kuyt and his workmanlike, solid but unspectacular performances on the wing. He's far too important to replace despite not being all that good.

Same with Lucas who was alright, for a bit, never got a true upgrade because he was alright. Mignolet too is just about serviceable and so he doesnt get a proper replacement for far too long.

Lovren looks like he might fall in to this bracket too, not terrible, not great, will end up sticking around longer than he should.

And its exactly the case with Firmino now. He's alright, we'll kid ourselves that we dont need better and that hes too important to the system to replace for another year, possibly two, until we finally admit we should have got someone in with more of an eye for goal.

Yep, although the thing about Kuyt was less to do with him and more to do with the player on the other flank being a non-entity. Kuyt was a solid goalscorer, the problem was that we became more reliant on him because of the shower of shite left wingers we kept on signing. If we'd have added a Robben to the club there'd be a non issue with him starting so often.

But yes, you're absolutely right. Firmino is a great option, in the same way Mario Mandzukic was a great option at Bayern except we don't have a Mario Gomez for the moments when you just need a bread and butter goalscorer. IF we get back into the champions league and going forward then Roberto is a perfect big game weapon but if we're up against 7 at the back Brighton or some team from the far reaches of Europe then we will need the guy who specialises in putting ball in net.

The alternative to that is to find another Sadio Mane who can score a lot from wide positions, but I'd rather just be greedy and have both options.

[disgraced cake]

Mane - 12
Firmino - 10
Origi - 7
Lallana - 7
Coutinho - 7
Sturridge - 6
Milner - 6
Gini - 4
Emre - 3
Lovren - 2


Very good return for Mane thus far this year.

Mane has really impressed/surprised me in front of goal. I thought he'd mainly be creating goals and possibly reach about 10 in the league, but to hit 12 by early March, and being unlucky not to have hit more, you've got to be happy with his input.

Bobby and Phil are others who have hit alright numbers so far, but again both really could have buried more. Think it's also interesting to see if there'll be a starting striker next season. I think Sturridge's days are numbered here and it looks like Origi will be our only senior striker, who is still only young. Ideally it'd be nice to see a couple of strikers come in.

[Red Bird]

There's nothing more PL era Liverpool than looking at a good player and thinking we dont need to upgrade to a great player.

We dont need to improve on Kuyt and his workmanlike, solid but unspectacular performances on the wing. He's far too important to replace despite not being all that good.

Same with Lucas who was alright, for a bit, never got a true upgrade because he was alright. Mignolet too is just about serviceable and so he doesnt get a proper replacement for far too long.

Lovren looks like he might fall in to this bracket too, not terrible, not great, will end up sticking around longer than he should.

And its exactly the case with Firmino now. He's alright, we'll kid ourselves that we dont need better and that hes too important to the system to replace for another year, possibly two, until we finally admit we should have got someone in with more of an eye for goal.

I have to agree.

[didi shamone]

No doubt we're on the lookout for a centre forward but they seem to be in short supply. Its gonna be a tough one to pull off. Good ones tend to stick out like a sore thumb and get snapped up for insane fees.  Goal keepers, centre halves or midfielders can slip under the radar and the likes of matip, kante etc can be found.  Hopefully klopp has something up his sleeve. Definitely has to be a priority.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Mane - 12
Firmino - 10
Origi - 7
Lallana - 7
Coutinho - 7
Milner - 7
Sturridge - 6
Gini - 5
Emre - 4
Lovren - 2

[Redcap]

There's no doubt in my mind that Firmino's position is one in which we can improve the most on in terms of points next season.

Playing Firmino against Burnley is like playing two Lucas and Stewart against the same. Against the good teams, you can add a lot of value with a Firmino to buzz around and keep defenders on their toes.

Against the more defensive teams though, you need more firepower than what he offers. He's just not a good finisher. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if he got a similar return next season playing half as many games as he does now, if he only played the right games.

I remember a couple of seasons ago, there was a discussion here about whether you could learn to become a great finisher. The players being discussed were C. Ronaldo and Sterling, and the argument was maybe Sterling could do what Ronaldo did, by applying himself off the pitch and becoming a great finisher, although he is not a natural.

Firmino is a natural at a lot of things - he's got great skill and he's naturally the type that runs all day. He said this himself in an interview that praised his hard work on the pitch. But I haven't stories about him staying back a couple of hours working on his finishing, the way we used to hear stories about Ronaldo and I think at one point Suarez as well, regarding their set pieces.

So I think he's got real ability and naturally loves to be involved, but I don't know if he's got the passion to perfect his game, as some others do. That's what he needs to do. People erroneously used to compare him to Suarez quite a lot, sometimes noting that Suarez didn't score a million goals in his first season and a half. But Suarez learned and improved. Will Firmino do that? Or will he be another one of the crowded ranks of 7/10 players with unfulfilled potential that's described the majority of our squad for the last 10 years?