Author Topic: How far away are we really? Why good outweighs bad yet isn't seen on the pitch  (Read 396487 times)

Offline Studgotelli

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Been skim reading the thread and It's fucking Groundhog Day on here honestly. The same ludicrous suggestions were being made when we were going after Lambert Lallana etc last season.

"Oh if we get a player who scores 10 a season and player c and d can get 5 goals we can replace Suarez's goals." Meanwhile we are left floundering waiting for pipe dreams about their output and supposed quality.

"Oh if so and so scored 10 goals for Southampton imagine what he can do here". Meanwhile they'll be getting half as many games and out of flipping position.

"Oh *insertaverageplayer* fits our style of play better than *insertworldclassplayer* because he has energy" meanwhile he's slow as fuck with no quality.

"For a squad player he's a good price" read Lambert/Ings. Meanwhile those resources could get some quality.

Like fuck!

With the players we're targeting another season of disappointment and mediocrity is on the horizon next Season whilst the others pull further away.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 01:31:15 am by Studgotelli »

Offline downtown

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^ I can recall quotes for each signing just off top of my head. I myself may have been guilty in one or two case. as Kate Price said, we could be re-signing Dossena at the end of summer, and there'll be some rationalizations in the forum

Lambert: Another quality penalty taker, gives us options for plan B, proven Premier League Scorer. How many teams in the league have a 3rd/4th striker as good as Lambert ? not to mention a boyhood Red as well which is amazing for the dressing room. Been a club captain and knows how to deal in pressure situations.

Lallana: He'd fit our pressing game like a glove. Much better fit for us than Fabregas as the latter lacks mobility and is defensively weak, mobility, not to mention he can get to double digit goals and assists. Club captain and knows how to deal in pressure situations.

Moreno: Coveted by Real Madrid. European experience and in World cup winning team' Preliminary squad. Will give us another option going forward and add a new dimension to our attack that was lacking last year (Fullbacks overlapping and contributing more in terms of goals and assists).

Markovic: Young, fearless dribbler with experience in winning titles already and has experienced plenty of hostile and big derbies (Partizan v. Red Star , Porto vs. Benfica), not to mention European experience . Suited to the league due his massive pace. One of the fastest players ever to play for Benfica and their best prospect since Di Maria according to their own fans.

Lovren: one of the top 5 CBs in the league this season. Another weapon on set pieces. Imagine how many goals Skrtel and Him can contribute from CB alone. Front foot defender suited to our pressing aggressive game. Also a leader, much better than both Skrtel and Agger and proven more in this league than Sakho.

Balotelli: PL and CL winner and has shown he can cope with the league. Another penalty option, untapped potential and if there is one manager in this world that can bring him his mojo back it's Rodgers. Definitely worth the gamble at 16M, because if he realized his potential, he's easily a 50M+ player.

Can: Good prospect for now and the future. Brings much needed physicality to our midfield. not to mention he has CL experience an can fill in at LB when necessary as well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total cost of the above in signing fees: 107 Million Pounds
Total wages for the above (pure guess work , going by law of average), at least 400k/week.

I don't include Origi and Manquillo as we've barely seen them play for us. and from the list above, Can is the only one that has a "Thumbs up" consensus among majority of the fans. Alarming ....


Offline muyuu

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All the youngsters there are good - just not the finished product and we needed finished product to perform this season.
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Offline Bobinhood

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So NESN is leading with its left perhaps but still its all over the net today that Hendo's going to re-up on a five maybe this week, and Skrtl and his agent made it clear that an extension is all but wrapped for the summer.

Far as i could see nobody could summon up the energy even to mention it. Its all disconsolate, all the time.

Tell ya the truth, this whole late second half-season sub-text i put it all down to Stevies moving announcement. For a while everyone coasted on suspended animation but the closer the moment gets, the more paralytic the whole situation becomes for the player the coach the team and the fans. We are just not mourning the semi-final loss we are mourning the loss of Stevie. That was as stark as it gets the denoument. Game fucking over. Its genuinely sad if youve been a big fan. Mind you Phil Collins made me laugh anyway. Merciless, this world. Savage.

ah well im still hoping some or all of those above us fall on hard times and we go on a run. Theres more than a month left in it i cant start reading lists of strikers already.






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Offline mrantarctica

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Lambert: Another quality penalty taker, gives us options for plan B, proven Premier League Scorer. How many teams in the league have a 3rd/4th striker as good as Lambert ? not to mention a boyhood Red as well which is amazing for the dressing room. Been a club captain and knows how to deal in pressure situations.

Lallana: He'd fit our pressing game like a glove. Much better fit for us than Fabregas as the latter lacks mobility and is defensively weak, mobility, not to mention he can get to double digit goals and assists. Club captain and knows how to deal in pressure situations.

Moreno: Coveted by Real Madrid. European experience and in World cup winning team' Preliminary squad. Will give us another option going forward and add a new dimension to our attack that was lacking last year (Fullbacks overlapping and contributing more in terms of goals and assists).

Markovic: Young, fearless dribbler with experience in winning titles already and has experienced plenty of hostile and big derbies (Partizan v. Red Star , Porto vs. Benfica), not to mention European experience . Suited to the league due his massive pace. One of the fastest players ever to play for Benfica and their best prospect since Di Maria according to their own fans.

Lovren: one of the top 5 CBs in the league this season. Another weapon on set pieces. Imagine how many goals Skrtel and Him can contribute from CB alone. Front foot defender suited to our pressing aggressive game. Also a leader, much better than both Skrtel and Agger and proven more in this league than Sakho.

Balotelli: PL and CL winner and has shown he can cope with the league. Another penalty option, untapped potential and if there is one manager in this world that can bring him his mojo back it's Rodgers. Definitely worth the gamble at 16M, because if he realized his potential, he's easily a 50M+ player.

Can: Good prospect for now and the future. Brings much needed physicality to our midfield. not to mention he has CL experience an can fill in at LB when necessary as well.

Laughable how absurd all of that looks.

Lambert: Has looked pretty average when he's played. Says a lot that for a lone striker system, he can't get a game when Sturridge is injured and our other options are Borini  and Balotelli (neither of whom BR really wants)

Lallana: Struggled to get to double figures in appearances let alone goals and assists. Absolute flop money wise. When he did play he looks elegant but no end product (quite like Joe Allen)

Moreno: Very little in the way of assists or goals. Did not add any dimensions to our attack as predicted. No longer coveted by Real Madrid

Markovic: Young fearless dribbler who looks completely out of his depth. No doubt he has some quality on the ball but this season has been pretty bad. Tactically and physically weak. Struggled to adapt to RWB.

Lovren: Arguably in the bottom 5 CB's in the league. Nervy display after nervy display compounded by that miserable penalty miss and that absolute brain dead hack into row Z from 40 yards against Villa.

Balotelli: BR might be the only one who can get something out of Mario, but he doesn't want to. He didn't want to sign him, he doesn't want to play him and continually criticises him at every available opportunity. Balotelli has been pretty average too but he hasn't been helped by being played as a lone striker in a system that doesn't suit him.

Can: Brings a lot of physicality to our midfield, by starting at CB.


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^ I can recall quotes for each signing just off top of my head. I myself may have been guilty in one or two case. as Kate Price said, we could be re-signing Dossena at the end of summer, and there'll be some rationalizations in the forum

Lambert: Another quality penalty taker, gives us options for plan B, proven Premier League Scorer. How many teams in the league have a 3rd/4th striker as good as Lambert ? not to mention a boyhood Red as well which is amazing for the dressing room. Been a club captain and knows how to deal in pressure situations.

Lallana: He'd fit our pressing game like a glove. Much better fit for us than Fabregas as the latter lacks mobility and is defensively weak, mobility, not to mention he can get to double digit goals and assists. Club captain and knows how to deal in pressure situations.

Moreno: Coveted by Real Madrid. European experience and in World cup winning team' Preliminary squad. Will give us another option going forward and add a new dimension to our attack that was lacking last year (Fullbacks overlapping and contributing more in terms of goals and assists).

Markovic: Young, fearless dribbler with experience in winning titles already and has experienced plenty of hostile and big derbies (Partizan v. Red Star , Porto vs. Benfica), not to mention European experience . Suited to the league due his massive pace. One of the fastest players ever to play for Benfica and their best prospect since Di Maria according to their own fans.

Lovren: one of the top 5 CBs in the league this season. Another weapon on set pieces. Imagine how many goals Skrtel and Him can contribute from CB alone. Front foot defender suited to our pressing aggressive game. Also a leader, much better than both Skrtel and Agger and proven more in this league than Sakho.

Balotelli: PL and CL winner and has shown he can cope with the league. Another penalty option, untapped potential and if there is one manager in this world that can bring him his mojo back it's Rodgers. Definitely worth the gamble at 16M, because if he realized his potential, he's easily a 50M+ player.

Can: Good prospect for now and the future. Brings much needed physicality to our midfield. not to mention he has CL experience an can fill in at LB when necessary as well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total cost of the above in signing fees: 107 Million Pounds
Total wages for the above (pure guess work , going by law of average), at least 400k/week.

I don't include Origi and Manquillo as we've barely seen them play for us. and from the list above, Can is the only one that has a "Thumbs up" consensus among majority of the fans. Alarming ....
The scary part is FSG apparently think the TC (which includes Rodgers) have succeeded in the summer.
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Offline Twelfth Man

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The scary part is FSG apparently think the TC (which includes Rodgers) have succeeded in the summer.
Where did you hear that?
The courts, the rich, the powerful or those in authority never lie. It has been dealt with 'by the courts' nothing to see here run along.

Offline Fiasco

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Where did you hear that?

A few reputable journalists said that the owners think the committee has been a success. I wouldn't read too much into anything like that, though. At this stage they are unlikely to come out and say anything else.

Offline ReeNah

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Perhaps Brendan Rodgers is more of a coach than a manager? Can get our players to play well but can't seem to get them to be winners?

Would be class to get Klopp and keep Rodgers on our coaching staff.
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Offline elpistolero7

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Schneiderlin maybe. I can't see the other 2 staying in our starting lineup for an entire seasons though.

Shame that none of Lallana, Lovren and Lambert were starting 11 players either. Oh well, another year, another 50 million wasted. We're poor though, remember?
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Offline Fiasco

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Perhaps Brendan Rodgers is more of a coach than a manager? Can get our players to play well but can't seem to get them to be winners?

Would be class to get Klopp and keep Rodgers on our coaching staff.

He is a very good coach. Managing and coaching aren't the same thing, and being able to do both isn't as easy as people think. But the only way to become a good manager is to manage. You don't learn to drive a car by reading a book on it, you get in and you do it. You'll stall, you'll go too fast or too slow but eventually you'll hopefully get it right. Rodgers is in a similar position.

As for your second point, no, not in a a million years. It's not going to happen and it shouldn't happen.

Offline elpistolero7

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Perhaps Brendan Rodgers is more of a coach than a manager? Can get our players to play well but can't seem to get them to be winners?

Would be class to get Klopp and keep Rodgers on our coaching staff.

Might as well get Rafa in as DoF with that and see the world go mad.
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Offline keyo

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^ I can recall quotes for each signing just off top of my head. I myself may have been guilty in one or two case. as Kate Price said, we could be re-signing Dossena at the end of summer, and there'll be some rationalizations in the forum

Lambert: Another quality penalty taker, gives us options for plan B, proven Premier League Scorer. How many teams in the league have a 3rd/4th striker as good as Lambert ? not to mention a boyhood Red as well which is amazing for the dressing room. Been a club captain and knows how to deal in pressure situations.

Lallana: He'd fit our pressing game like a glove. Much better fit for us than Fabregas as the latter lacks mobility and is defensively weak, mobility, not to mention he can get to double digit goals and assists. Club captain and knows how to deal in pressure situations.

Moreno: Coveted by Real Madrid. European experience and in World cup winning team' Preliminary squad. Will give us another option going forward and add a new dimension to our attack that was lacking last year (Fullbacks overlapping and contributing more in terms of goals and assists).

Markovic: Young, fearless dribbler with experience in winning titles already and has experienced plenty of hostile and big derbies (Partizan v. Red Star , Porto vs. Benfica), not to mention European experience . Suited to the league due his massive pace. One of the fastest players ever to play for Benfica and their best prospect since Di Maria according to their own fans.

Lovren: one of the top 5 CBs in the league this season. Another weapon on set pieces. Imagine how many goals Skrtel and Him can contribute from CB alone. Front foot defender suited to our pressing aggressive game. Also a leader, much better than both Skrtel and Agger and proven more in this league than Sakho.

Balotelli: PL and CL winner and has shown he can cope with the league. Another penalty option, untapped potential and if there is one manager in this world that can bring him his mojo back it's Rodgers. Definitely worth the gamble at 16M, because if he realized his potential, he's easily a 50M+ player.

Can: Good prospect for now and the future. Brings much needed physicality to our midfield. not to mention he has CL experience an can fill in at LB when necessary as well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total cost of the above in signing fees: 107 Million Pounds
Total wages for the above (pure guess work , going by law of average), at least 400k/week.

I don't include Origi and Manquillo as we've barely seen them play for us. and from the list above, Can is the only one that has a "Thumbs up" consensus among majority of the fans. Alarming ....



So how much is down to the player being a poor buy and how much is down to the player being poorly used and how much is fown to the player underperforming and/or not applying himself?
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Offline ReeNah

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He is a very good coach. Managing and coaching aren't the same thing, and being able to do both isn't as easy as people think. But the only way to become a good manager is to manage. You don't learn to drive a car by reading a book on it, you get in and you do it. You'll stall, you'll go too fast or too slow but eventually you'll hopefully get it right. Rodgers is in a similar position.

As for your second point, no, not in a a million years. It's not going to happen and it shouldn't happen.

Some people are talented people managers, others are not. Does BR have it in him?
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Offline Marko B

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Laughable how absurd all of that looks.

Lambert: Has looked pretty average when he's played. Says a lot that for a lone striker system, he can't get a game when Sturridge is injured and our other options are Borini  and Balotelli (neither of whom BR really wants)

Lallana: Struggled to get to double figures in appearances let alone goals and assists. Absolute flop money wise. When he did play he looks elegant but no end product (quite like Joe Allen)

Moreno: Very little in the way of assists or goals. Did not add any dimensions to our attack as predicted. No longer coveted by Real Madrid

Markovic: Young fearless dribbler who looks completely out of his depth. No doubt he has some quality on the ball but this season has been pretty bad. Tactically and physically weak. Struggled to adapt to RWB.

Lovren: Arguably in the bottom 5 CB's in the league. Nervy display after nervy display compounded by that miserable penalty miss and that absolute brain dead hack into row Z from 40 yards against Villa.

Balotelli: BR might be the only one who can get something out of Mario, but he doesn't want to. He didn't want to sign him, he doesn't want to play him and continually criticises him at every available opportunity. Balotelli has been pretty average too but he hasn't been helped by being played as a lone striker in a system that doesn't suit him.

Can: Brings a lot of physicality to our midfield, by starting at CB.



To be honest the truth of the quality of these players must surely lie somewhere in between this and the post containing the original justifications.

Which begs the question, how can so many new players all have performed at such a terrible level? Ok, they may have been overrated but they are nowhere near as bad as we've seen, and have shown that elsewhere hence those original opinions.

How can we possibly be getting such a minimal contribution out of these players? It's entirely conceivable that the odd player simply can't integrate, or can't be worked into becoming a useful member of the team but so many?

I don't really want to harp back to Rafa- but he managed to integrate and use the likes of Crouch, Morientes, Kuyt, Keane, Ngog, Torres, Voronin etc - players ranging from the sublime to ordinary, players of such varied skills and attributes yet even the worst of which in Voronin provided about as much of a contribution as both Balotelli and Lambert combined who are both clearly better players.

Take Markovic, whilst the spruik said DiMaria unfortunately the more apt current comparison is Babel - but the thing is at least Babel was integrated into a useful member of the team even if he never came close to fulfilling the potential we thought may have existed.

As for Lovren, we've had the likes of Kyriakos and Insua thrust into the side yet still be able to integrate them into becoming useful, if nothing more, players. We're talking an international, he may not be worth what we paid but he's clearly not as ordinary as what we've seen.

How can we be so unable to integrate such a vast number of players (not just those mentioned but there's been more in recent times), to be so either unable or unwilling to find a way to best utilise the tools at our disposal? They may not be the flash new tools we were hoping for but Lambert has still had two years of scoring 13+ league goals, Balotelli has still been an integral part of one of the strongest national teams (not to mention what he's done at club level) and Lovren still a seasoned international with a club history clearly superior than the player we've seen.

When there's so many examples the only possible explanation that springs to mind is that the problem is clearly us, not them. They may not be perfect but there's no excuse for them appearing so useless.
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Offline Bolrick

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I like Danny Ings, if we're gonna buy squad players cheaply then we can't go far wrong with him tbf

No offence....but IMO, after the last 3 summer transfers, if we keep buying players squad fillers we are never going to improve.  If i was running this club, i would have made sure that our youth players would be the ones filling up the squad. Wisdom, Ibe, Rossiter,  Teixeira, Chirivella....etc. And if these players are not good enough, we still have alberto & aspas of the world to call upon.

If we are to make a push towards champions league next season, it is imperative that we get in top quality players who straightaway improve the team. Spend our entire transfer budget (+ player sales) on 1 to 3 players (maximum) and build them team/system/tactics around them.

If we still insist on getting Ings, williams, milner..... Expect us to compete with the tier 2 teams like southampton, tottenham and ever$hit.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 06:59:02 am by Bolrick »
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Offline Ken-Obi

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If we still insist on getting Ings, williams, milner..... Expect us to compete with the tier 2 teams like southampton, tottenham and ever$hit.
Tier 2?
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Offline ThePoolMan

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No offence....but IMO, after the last 3 summer transfers, if we keep buying players squad fillers we are never going to improve.  If i was running this club, i would have made sure that our youth players would be the ones filling up the squad. Wisdom, Ibe, Rossiter,  Teixeira, Chirivella....etc. And if these players are not good enough, we still have alberto & aspas of the world to call upon.

If we are to make a push towards champions league next season, it is imperative that we get in top quality players who starightaway improve the team. Spend our entire transfer budget (+ player sales) on 1 to 3 players (maximum) and build them team/system/tactics around them.

If we still insist on getting Ings, williams, milner..... Expect us to compete with the tier 2 teams like southampton, tottenham and ever$hit.

Ings will probably turn out to be another Borini in the end. FSG's false economy brought us players like Balotelli and Lambert.

Instead of investing in true world class players who will of course demand higher salaries, they spend on too raw or compromised players who will disappoint.

Unless FSG changes their approach, the club is on a sure road to irrelevance and mediocrity.

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And then there is the manager. On occasion he can deliver brilliant tactical reshuffling of the team that can transform and revive the team. On other occasions he makes sophomoric mistakes that costs the team dear. And the trouble is that the latter still keeps happening to this day. Is he really getting better and more accomplished? Or is he just making it up as he goes along? Is he really a tactical genius or is he a good self promoter who is nothing more than a decent coach?

I do not know which one is true. The problem is that after 3 seasons almost and amid the occasional flash of brilliance, he still does not evoke the kind of confidence in his tactical acumen that I had in Benitez whose strongest ability was to be able to outthink almost any manager whose team opposed us.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 06:43:22 am by ThePoolMan »

Offline Bolrick

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Tier 2?

This is how i would tier the premierleague clubs.

Tier 1 - clubs challenging for top 4 (arsenal, manure, man city, chelsea)
Tier 2 - clubs which hope to challenge for top 4 but end up fighting for Uefa cup places (southampton, tottenham, ever$hit...etc)
Tier 3 - midtable
Tier 4 - Teams fighting against relegation.
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Offline Upinsmoke

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To be honest the truth of the quality of these players must surely lie somewhere in between this and the post containing the original justifications.

Which begs the question, how can so many new players all have performed at such a terrible level? Ok, they may have been overrated but they are nowhere near as bad as we've seen, and have shown that elsewhere hence those original opinions.

How can we possibly be getting such a minimal contribution out of these players? It's entirely conceivable that the odd player simply can't integrate, or can't be worked into becoming a useful member of the team but so many?

I don't really want to harp back to Rafa- but he managed to integrate and use the likes of Crouch, Morientes, Kuyt, Keane, Ngog, Torres, Voronin etc - players ranging from the sublime to ordinary, players of such varied skills and attributes yet even the worst of which in Voronin provided about as much of a contribution as both Balotelli and Lambert combined who are both clearly better players.

Take Markovic, whilst the spruik said DiMaria unfortunately the more apt current comparison is Babel - but the thing is at least Babel was integrated into a useful member of the team even if he never came close to fulfilling the potential we thought may have existed.

As for Lovren, we've had the likes of Kyriakos and Insua thrust into the side yet still be able to integrate them into becoming useful, if nothing more, players. We're talking an international, he may not be worth what we paid but he's clearly not as ordinary as what we've seen.

How can we be so unable to integrate such a vast number of players (not just those mentioned but there's been more in recent times), to be so either unable or unwilling to find a way to best utilise the tools at our disposal? They may not be the flash new tools we were hoping for but Lambert has still had two years of scoring 13+ league goals, Balotelli has still been an integral part of one of the strongest national teams (not to mention what he's done at club level) and Lovren still a seasoned international with a club history clearly superior than the player we've seen.

When there's so many examples the only possible explanation that springs to mind is that the problem is clearly us, not them. They may not be perfect but there's no excuse for them appearing so useless.

I'm with this train of thought to. It's what the management or coaching staff are actually extracting from the individuals. All of our players were signed in good faith because we believed they would improve or contribute in some manner, there's no question about that we haven't tried to sabotage things here even if it looks like it. We can all look at footage of these players prior to joining us, we can all see there strengths even if we have doubts that they fit. But when they play a lot of these players almost shrink. I hear the management talk of confidence and earning the right to play but a lot look timid in possession, they don't add anything a youth player wouldn't. For example outside of sturridge brendan doesn't fancy any other strikers, why not have a younger member on the bench rather than 20m for lambert and balotelli combined. But then again is that irrelevant as a spare 20m would go on a dud anyway?

Ultimately my point is this one. Despite how good brendan had us playing last season, another manager would be able to extract better qualities from these individuals. Lovren, Moreno, Balotelli, Lallana. You have to get more out of these players, it's not fair saying they've flopped, you have to make them work, there your players.

The same goes for aspas and luis Alberto. Oh there not good enough, all these players just magically not good enough. Yet they were when we signed them, it's not an issue with the players, things like this just aren't that coincidental.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 07:16:42 am by Upinsmoke »

Offline Bolrick

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........ Balotelli has still been an integral part of one of the strongest national teams (not to mention what he's done at club level) and Lovren still a seasoned international with a club history clearly superior than the player we've seen.

When there's so many examples the only possible explanation that springs to mind is that the problem is clearly us, not them. They may not be perfect but there's no excuse for them appearing so useless.

Your post really hits the nail. And i would just like to expand on the Balotelli portion of your post. Balotelli single handedly destroyed Germany (the exact team which will go on to win the world cup) in the European Championship semi-finals. He is one of those rare players capable of scoring goals from "nothing". Yes, he does not work hard. Yes he does not press. But the manager have to work with the squad of players he has and build a system/tactics around those players.

Rafa made use of players like traore, biscan to win the freckin champions league. And i am pretty sure he did not really fancy them alongside cisse, baros, dudek...etc. But he still used them to their strengths and was successful.

When we were not scoring goals....couldn't a front line of Lambert and Borini do a job ? Or even Balotelli and Borini ? Why do we have to insist in playing sterling as a lone striker or Can as a CB when those were not their favoured positions.
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Offline spider-neil

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Balotelli should be used like a number 10. That isn't going to happen here (because of lack of movement) so we may as well move him on.

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Offline L666KOP

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I like Danny Ings, if we're gonna buy squad players cheaply then we can't go far wrong with him tbf

That's what's killing us though, buying squad players.

We should be buying better than we have and the players currently available should then be 'demoted' or sold.

Everyone tells me that we have loads of talent in the 16-20 age range, why aren't they getting a game then, instead we go out and buy someone that's a similar age but perhaps 12 months further on in their development ?

We need a quality squad of maybe 18-20 players, anything else comes from the reserve system.

This summer I'd fuck everyone off that's not played for us since last summer, and with the money we have, plus this summer's kitty we'd have maybe 50-60 million. Buy 2-3 high end players, and I'd bet their combined wages wouldn't touch the wages we'd save by fucking everybody else off.

There'll always be an anomaly, and I think Ings falls into that bracket, he'll cost us maybe 6/7 million, and we should be paying him ~50k a week, if he doesn't make the grade then we'll get 10m all day long for him next summer. The problem is, will the 6/7 impinge on our ability to get this summer's business done ?
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That's what's killing us though, buying squad players.

We should be buying better than we have and the players currently available should then be 'demoted' or sold.

Everyone tells me that we have loads of talent in the 16-20 age range, why aren't they getting a game then, instead we go out and buy someone that's a similar age but perhaps 12 months further on in their development ?

We need a quality squad of maybe 18-20 players, anything else comes from the reserve system.

This summer I'd fuck everyone off that's not played for us since last summer, and with the money we have, plus this summer's kitty we'd have maybe 50-60 million. Buy 2-3 high end players, and I'd bet their combined wages wouldn't touch the wages we'd save by fucking everybody else off.

There'll always be an anomaly, and I think Ings falls into that bracket, he'll cost us maybe 6/7 million, and we should be paying him ~50k a week, if he doesn't make the grade then we'll get 10m all day long for him next summer. The problem is, will the 6/7 impinge on our ability to get this summer's business done ?

Well we have Ibe who is in that range - he certainly comes into the squad and pushes for a 1st team place..
We also would have had Teixeira but he has broke his leg.
Ilori will come back and push for a place I think.
Sinclair/Williams could all come into the squad as well.

Add to those the first team players Rodgers apparantly wants and we have a very good squad with the right blend.

Offline Caston

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A few reputable journalists said that the owners think the committee has been a success. I wouldn't read too much into anything like that, though. At this stage they are unlikely to come out and say anything else.

What like Tony Evans?

Offline redmark

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Which begs the question, how can so many new players all have performed at such a terrible level? Ok, they may have been overrated but they are nowhere near as bad as we've seen, and have shown that elsewhere hence those original opinions.

How can we possibly be getting such a minimal contribution out of these players? It's entirely conceivable that the odd player simply can't integrate, or can't be worked into becoming a useful member of the team but so many?

I don't really want to harp back to Rafa- but he managed to integrate and use the likes of Crouch, Morientes, Kuyt, Keane, Ngog, Torres, Voronin etc - players ranging from the sublime to ordinary, players of such varied skills and attributes yet even the worst of which in Voronin provided about as much of a contribution as both Balotelli and Lambert combined who are both clearly better players.

And yet, Rafa dropped from 82 points in his second season to 68 in his third; a blip remarkably similar to Rodgers', though a 3rd year points total we may still beat. The exact same criticism being levelled at Rodgers was applied to Rafa - too many squad fillers, cheap gambles, spreading resources too thin; and that without having to work with a transfer committee. Of those forwards names you list, some were never integrated (the Irish Balotelli sold for a loss after 6 months), took months or a season to do so, or were undeniably disappointing. And of course, you're taking 6 years of transfers to compare with 3.

Rafa generally did very well when the fee was bigger; but those fees have increased massively. Most of Rafa's signings were in the £6m-£10m bracket; today's £15m+. It's 9-10 years since we spent £6m-£7m on Morientes, Crouch, Sissoko and Pennant. We spent £9m on Kuyt, who became a qualified success only as a workhorse wide midfielder, with a knack for important goals. Torres was bought before Rafa's fourth season; at the end of this, in the same stage for Rodgers career - and his £20m+ is a £35m-£40m signing today.

The league performances of Rafa and Rodgers over their first 3 years are rather similar, in terms of points. Rafa finished higher in the table in the disappointing seasons only because Manchester City hadn't yet been pumped with a couple of billion pounds. Certainly Rafa was superior in cup competitions, particularly Europe - but that was part of his qualifications for the job. On the flipside, it took him 5 years to produce a fluency and attacking verve approaching that of Rodgers' 2013/14 side.

It's too early to say that last summer's business won't contribute. Of course it's bitterly disappointing that they haven't really yet, as a group. Only Balotelli and Lambert look to be absolute failures, with the rest contributing to some degree or another, most with plenty of time on their side. Even Lovren, quietly, has looked a bit better in recent appearances. But Can, Moreno, Lallana, Markovic and Origi could turn out to be brilliant players for the club. Or not, of course.
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Offline Illmatic

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Perhaps Brendan Rodgers is more of a coach than a manager? Can get our players to play well but can't seem to get them to be winners?

Would be class to get Klopp and keep Rodgers on our coaching staff.

We tried that when we brought in Houiller alongside Evans, which if I remember correctly didn't turn out too well. As we never seem to learn as club I wouldn't put it pass us to try another daft experiment such as this.
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Offline Pistolero

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^ I can recall quotes for each signing just off top of my head. I myself may have been guilty in one or two case. as Kate Price said, we could be re-signing Dossena at the end of summer, and there'll be some rationalizations in the forum

Lambert: Another quality penalty taker, gives us options for plan B, proven Premier League Scorer. How many teams in the league have a 3rd/4th striker as good as Lambert ? not to mention a boyhood Red as well which is amazing for the dressing room. Been a club captain and knows how to deal in pressure situations.

Lallana: He'd fit our pressing game like a glove. Much better fit for us than Fabregas as the latter lacks mobility and is defensively weak, mobility, not to mention he can get to double digit goals and assists. Club captain and knows how to deal in pressure situations.

Moreno: Coveted by Real Madrid. European experience and in World cup winning team' Preliminary squad. Will give us another option going forward and add a new dimension to our attack that was lacking last year (Fullbacks overlapping and contributing more in terms of goals and assists).

Markovic: Young, fearless dribbler with experience in winning titles already and has experienced plenty of hostile and big derbies (Partizan v. Red Star , Porto vs. Benfica), not to mention European experience . Suited to the league due his massive pace. One of the fastest players ever to play for Benfica and their best prospect since Di Maria according to their own fans.

Lovren: one of the top 5 CBs in the league this season. Another weapon on set pieces. Imagine how many goals Skrtel and Him can contribute from CB alone. Front foot defender suited to our pressing aggressive game. Also a leader, much better than both Skrtel and Agger and proven more in this league than Sakho.

Balotelli: PL and CL winner and has shown he can cope with the league. Another penalty option, untapped potential and if there is one manager in this world that can bring him his mojo back it's Rodgers. Definitely worth the gamble at 16M, because if he realized his potential, he's easily a 50M+ player.

Can: Good prospect for now and the future. Brings much needed physicality to our midfield. not to mention he has CL experience an can fill in at LB when necessary as well.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total cost of the above in signing fees: 107 Million Pounds
Total wages for the above (pure guess work , going by law of average), at least 400k/week.

I don't include Origi and Manquillo as we've barely seen them play for us. and from the list above, Can is the only one that has a "Thumbs up" consensus among majority of the fans. Alarming ....

 ;D nailed it
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Offline L666KOP

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Well we have Ibe who is in that range - he certainly comes into the squad and pushes for a 1st team place..
We also would have had Teixeira but he has broke his leg.
Ilori will come back and push for a place I think.
Sinclair/Williams could all come into the squad as well.

Add to those the first team players Rodgers apparantly wants and we have a very good squad with the right blend.

 :D

These are exactly the players that should be ahead of spending 5-10m on squad players.

Gnurglan has been banging the drum for months, and he's gone to the trouble of listing them, fees etc.

At some point we need to prune the squad right back, and we need to be ruthless in doing it, for too long now we've been hanging on to loan players in the hope they'll make the grade down the line, how much money do we have tied up in players that we don't want to get rid of because "There's a player in there" but just not yet ?
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Offline Huytonian

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And yet, Rafa dropped from 82 points in his second season to 68 in his third; a blip remarkably similar to Rodgers', though a 3rd year points total we may still beat. The exact same criticism being levelled at Rodgers was applied to Rafa - too many squad fillers, cheap gambles, spreading resources too thin; and that without having to work with a transfer committee. Of those forwards names you list, some were never integrated (the Irish Balotelli sold for a loss after 6 months), took months or a season to do so, or were undeniably disappointing. And of course, you're taking 6 years of transfers to compare with 3.

Rafa generally did very well when the fee was bigger; but those fees have increased massively. Most of Rafa's signings were in the £6m-£10m bracket; today's £15m+. It's 9-10 years since we spent £6m-£7m on Morientes, Crouch, Sissoko and Pennant. We spent £9m on Kuyt, who became a qualified success only as a workhorse wide midfielder, with a knack for important goals. Torres was bought before Rafa's fourth season; at the end of this, in the same stage for Rodgers career - and his £20m+ is a £35m-£40m signing today.

The league performances of Rafa and Rodgers over their first 3 years are rather similar, in terms of points. Rafa finished higher in the table in the disappointing seasons only because Manchester City hadn't yet been pumped with a couple of billion pounds. Certainly Rafa was superior in cup competitions, particularly Europe - but that was part of his qualifications for the job. On the flipside, it took him 5 years to produce a fluency and attacking verve approaching that of Rodgers' 2013/14 side.

It's too early to say that last summer's business won't contribute. Of course it's bitterly disappointing that they haven't really yet, as a group. Only Balotelli and Lambert look to be absolute failures, with the rest contributing to some degree or another, most with plenty of time on their side. Even Lovren, quietly, has looked a bit better in recent appearances. But Can, Moreno, Lallana, Markovic and Origi could turn out to be brilliant players for the club. Or not, of course.


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Offline TSC

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A few reputable journalists said that the owners think the committee has been a success.

That's more frightening and disheartening than this shambles of a season to be honest, if it's accurate.  You wonder how things would have to look for them to assess the TC as being 'not fit for purpose'?  Maybe signings would have to lead us to relegation. 

Offline Illmatic

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The league performances of Rafa and Rodgers over their first 3 years are rather similar, in terms of points. Rafa finished higher in the table in the disappointing seasons only because Manchester City hadn't yet been pumped with a couple of billion pounds. Certainly Rafa was superior in cup competitions, particularly Europe - but that was part of his qualifications for the job. On the flipside, it took him 5 years to produce a fluency and attacking verve approaching that of Rodgers' 2013/14 side.

With the position that we found ourselves in with three games left of the season last year Rodger's should really be a PL winning manager, I just think its the type of opportunity that I doubt we come around for him again. That he could not get us over the line, as well as some of the results in important games this season have demonstrated that he is not a top top manager yet and may never be.

Rafa's team's never had a Suarez level talent in them so the comparison with it taking Benitez 5 years to produce a team with the fluency and attacking verve of Rodgers team last year is not really valid, as I don't think any of Benitez's teams have played the we did last year. It is often glossed over that we conceded 50 goals last season, which surly most negate our attacking performance to a degree, as teams always had a chance against us. What top managers like Benitez and others have is the ability to take their team over the line and win major honours when it gets down to the nitty gritty. Rodgers clearly doesn't have this yet and some managers never attain it.   
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 09:29:34 am by Illmatic »
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Offline peachybum

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That's more frightening and disheartening than this shambles of a season to be honest, if it's accurate.  You wonder how things would have to look for them to assess the TC as being 'not fit for purpose'?  Maybe signings would have to lead us to relegation.

I dislike our moves in market as much as anyone(probably mores o as i don't rate Lallana) but for the team with the 5th highest wage bill to be 5th and get to both domestic cup semi finals is not a shambles. Disappointing we didn't overachieve in the league again? Yes. A missed opportunity given we're still that good we can be 5th without a goalscorer? Yes. Shambles? Nope.
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Offline Caston

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More PR news! Ibe to sign 5 year contract this week

Offline Pistolero

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On the flipside, it took him 5 years to produce a fluency and attacking verve approaching that of Rodgers' 2013/14 side.

Throw Suarez into that side and he'd have done it in season 2
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Offline L666KOP

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Throw Suarez into that side and he'd have done it in season 2

And actually won the league.
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Offline L666KOP

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That's more frightening and disheartening than this shambles of a season to be honest, if it's accurate.  You wonder how things would have to look for them to assess the TC as being 'not fit for purpose'?  Maybe signings would have to lead us to relegation.

It's worrying given that RAWK has decided that either the TC or Brendan is at fault, and that changes need to be made.

And now it's been reported that the owners are happy with the work done by the TC.
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Offline redmark

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Throw Suarez into that side and he'd have done it in season 2

And Rodgers didn't have a peak Gerrard, Carragher or Hyypia. We can play that game all day.
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